InquisitiveScouter

6 minutes ago, Tron said:

 

I think this is the issue. Due to so many factors we have this atmosphere of permissiveness. Sometimes it's not even permissiveness; it's just burnout. How many of us have reported something because we had valid concern or outright knew someone was willfully violating SYT/YPT or the GTSS and were ignored by people at the district or council level. 

Hey man, we only get to work when things become a Crisis.  So, until it becomes a crisis, we ain't doin' nothin'.

If you follow our philosophy, then all you have to do is Crisis Management.  And when it becomes a Crisis, if you don't want to deal with it, then dump it on someone else and find a new position elsewhere.

We just pray there are plenty of fat paychecks in the bank before the Crisis rears its ugly head, and we have to leave. (not having done the Crisis Management we have said we would do 😜 )

Now, pay us your fees and go have fun!! 

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Ebay, or Scouting memorabilia shop. Good luck finding one. It may take you 30 years to find one you can afford.

@mylo_cat and others, what would a fair price be, now that this is a collector's item?  My son is home from college, and may part with his.  He is not as "attached" to Scouting as I am.

On 12/12/2025 at 1:39 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

 

Here is what I can see...

Post here if you want your specific council numbers, or I can see by state, also.  Also, if you want to know by program, sing out...

As of today, National level, all programs including Learning for Life, total youth registered is 877, 225.  Same month last year number was 986,520.

So, overall, drop is 109,295 Scouts, or 11.08% loss, from Dec 2024 to Dec 2025  I'll check these numbers again after 31 Dec, when many current registrations expire, and again after mid-March, when the 60 day grace period expires.

We are losing about 10% in our Troop, due to those turning 18.  Hope to gain those back during crossover season.

Please remind me

And the aggregate of all councils today is 881,444.  A change of +4219 nationally... just in 5 days.  Registrars are busy at work 😜

2 hours ago, Tron said:

Last night I saw a dashboard and it had way different numbers. My understanding after asking some questions is that the numbers reported by councils and national in their annual reports Year-over-Year are not "current registered youth" and have not been "current registered youth". So we might have 877k right now but that number is not directly correlated to the membership numbers reported by national at the NAM. The number to compare against nationals year end number that they reported at the NAM is a "count of uniquely served youth in the previous calendar year" which currently stands at 1.2 million according to the dashboard I was shown last night. I am not sure if every council is doing the same thing or not; I suspect based on numbers I have seen that confused me in the past that my council is doing this as well. 

I'd be interested to know the source...

I pulled raw numbers from the Council Membership Tool on my.scouting.  See attached for today's report on 092, Atlanta Area Council, which @Jameson76 had asked for.

So, over five days, the current numbers changed to 15341, up from 15315 last Friday (+26).  You'll notice the Dec 2024 number does not change (nor should it).

The number this will be on 31 Dec, as @Eagle94-A1 points out, will be the one to watch for to give the most accurate "real time" number for comparison. Although, I suppose if a Registrar has a backlog of applications or renewals, they can tweak the Dec 2025 numbers into Jan 2026.

On 12/12/2025 at 4:55 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Dec 2024: 17277  Dec 2025: 15315   -11.36%

Another pet peeve...

Scout camps that are not designed around the Patrol Method.

What we have mostly these days is a Troop-amoeba campsite with individual Scouts doing their own individually tailored programs during the day.  And, they are being given merit badges without having done the work. (Yes, there are exceptions, but this is the general rule, in my observation...)

The hidden message is that advancement is the primary purpose of Scouting.

If the flagships of the councils, the council-run Summer Camps, are not pushing the Patrol Method, then they work at cross-purposes with units who are trying to do it that way.

1 hour ago, Tron said:

what are we doing wrong that club sports at their insane cost are growing and growing while we are retracting and retracting? 

We are not making participation mandatory for Scouts or parents.  In Scouting, there really isn't "skin in the game" unless you want to put it there.

40 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Go look at units where scouts age out, and you will find they are more scout-run with adventure. Also, adventure-driven programs typically have a high number of Eagles because the scouts are in the program a long time and earn the Eagle requirements by simply participating.

Yes, this is it.  When I had the reins of the Troop, we went camping every month, with two or three big events every summer... 50-miler backpacking trips, week-long beach adventures, 50-miler canoeing, 100+ mile cycling trips, etc.  Now that I have pulled back a lot from the Troop, there is no one who is willing to put that much effort into the program.  So, the numbers are dwindling.

Agree with you wholeheartedly... young men want adventure, not academics.

18 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Friends of mine have been hit with "Unit Fair Share" fees from their council. Unit is being assessed a per scout fee.  This is being added to the charter fee, so not directly on the Scouts, but who pays unit dues. They are complaining of no services being provided by the council to warrant that  fee, or FOS for that matter.

Here are our costs for 2026:

2026 Unit Charter Fee - $100.00

-------------------------------------

2026 National Membership Fee - Youth  $85.00

2026 Council Service Fee - Youth  $75.00

2026 Troop Dues - $35.00

2026 Sibling Discount - $17.50

2026 One-time Equipment/Joining Fee - $35.00

---------------------------------------------

2026 National Fee - Adult  $65.00

2026 Council Insurance Fee - Adult  $6.00

So, cost to remain in the Troop for 2026 if you are already registered?  $85 + $75 + $35 = $195  (Don't forget to add on National's credit card fee, if you pay through my.scouting)

Cost to transfer/crossover to the Troop in say, March 2026 (because they already registered with their Pack)= ($35/12 * 9) + $35 = $61.25  {That's Troop dues pro-rated, and the Troop equipment fee.)

We used to pay these fees for the entire Troop from our bank account around 01 Dec thru the re-charter process.  We would then assess the costs to each Scout through Scoutbook to collect.  For several of our families, we would "carry" that debt for a few months until all the Christmas / New Years bills were paid.  If a Scout's balance goes over $200, we ask for some partial payment to bring it back below $200.

Troop has 44 Scouts currently.  Eight will not renew (Seven are turning 18 years old, and one is dropping out.)  Now, here we are on 15 Dec, and 25 out of 36 eligible Scouts do not have a renewed registration.  That's 69.4% whose parents have ignored the emails from National to renew.  (...and our one Troop reminder at the beginning of the month.) National sent emails on 01 Nov and 01 Dec.

Committee has not discussed what to do in the New Year with Scouts who have not renewed registrations.

North Carolina includes:  Last Dec / This Dec / % change

070, Old North State, Greensboro:  3284 / 2794 / -14.82%

414, Daniel Boone, Asheville: 1381 / 1244 / -9.92%

415,  Mecklenburg County, Charlotte: 4380 / 4286 / -3.29%

416, Central NC, Albemarle: 2541 / 2546 / +0.20%

420: Piedmont, Gastonia: 3903 / 3702 / -5.15%

421, Occoneechee, Raleigh: 8170 / 8189 / +0.23%

424, Tuscarora, Goldsboro: 1839 / 1351 / -26.54%

425, Cape Fear, Wilmington: 2125 / 1954 / -8.05%

426, East Carolina, Kinston: 2597 / 2355 / -9.32%

427, Old Hickory, Winston-Salem:  2586 / 2468 / -4.56%

And I'll include 596, Tidewater, Virginia Beach, VA, which extends down into NC:  3934 / 3777 / -3.99%

And in the aggregate, all those councils:  36740 / 34616 / -5.78%

8 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Would like to know Year over Year for Georgia and also Atlanta Area Council

State of Georgia:  Report database not rendering... had to find a work-around... pooled all data from all Georgia Councils: 091 - 101

091 = Chattahoochee

092 = Atlanta

093 = GA-Carolina  (so, covers some in SC)

094 = N/A number not assigned

095 = Flint River

096 =Central GA

097 = N/A  number not assigned

098 = South GA

099 = Coastal GA

100 = NW GA

101 = NE GA

Dec 2024: 39395  Dec 2025:  35,587  -9.67%

Atlanta Area Council - 092:

Dec 2024: 17277  Dec 2025: 15315   -11.36%

37 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

I do wonder what the "Actual" BSA National Numbers are at this point.  Nobody really knows.  Nobody knows where to get the information.  Most people have stopped asking.  Main success is judged by funds raised.  Most of our council staff is focused on getting cash, to support all the staff that is raising cash.

In our district we have and continue to lose troops and packs, but not sure there is any effort to save any of them or figure a way to stem the tide.  We have not witnessed an actual DE or other council staff in the wild in forever.  It's not that we have a bad relationship, that would infer our units actually knew who they were, we literally have no relationship.  There are maybe 20 units in the district (though I think less) and one would assume they may come by annually to see what's up.  

In the end BSA (sorry SA) will likely not end with a bang, it will just not be around the professionals that were supposed to be the managers and provide vision will go raise money elsewhere.

16 minutes ago, yknot said:

I don't know exact national membership numbers but the latest I saw from earlier in the fall was around 915,000 and that was down about 90,000 from the same point the year before. There are some district positions that can access the membership totals on an ongoing basis and would know what the current number right now is. There used to be someone on here who would post them but I haven't seen him/her in awhile. 

Here is what I can see...

Post here if you want your specific council numbers, or I can see by state, also.  Also, if you want to know by program, sing out...

As of today, National level, all programs including Learning for Life, total youth registered is 877, 225.  Same month last year number was 986,520.

So, overall, drop is 109,295 Scouts, or 11.08% loss, from Dec 2024 to Dec 2025  I'll check these numbers again after 31 Dec, when many current registrations expire, and again after mid-March, when the 60 day grace period expires.

We are losing about 10% in our Troop, due to those turning 18.  Hope to gain those back during crossover season.

Please remind me

Just got this annual report in my inbox.

This cannot be...

Are you telling me, for the entire five boroughs of NYC, this council has only 8, 843 youth enrolled?  https://p6fb9goab.cc.rs6.net/tn.jsp

Yikes!

I double checked on the Council Dashboard in my. Scouting, and it is true...

So I ran some more numbers....  not quite perfect comparisons, but paints the picture.  Pulled data from  https://www.neilsberg.com/insights/brooklyn-ny-population-by-age/

Youth 5-19 in Queens:  375,462

Bronx:  289,810

Brooklyn: 469,947

Manhattan: 193,875

Staten Island:  91,517

Total youth 5-19 in the five:  1,420,611  (note that BSA uses 5 - 20 years old)

Market percentage = 8843 / 1,420,611 = 0.6225%

Our council has more than half that number, and we are a mostly rural geographic area.

Total youth population in combined counties in our council: 108,030

Total youth registered in our council: approx 4700 (exact number changed to protect the innocent)

Market percentage = 4700 / 108030 = 4.3506 %

So, if the analysis is close to correct, our council is doing about 7 times better in market share than Greater New York Councils?

Again... YIKES!

Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

41 minutes ago, Tron said:

I am starting to think that Scouting has done this to itself. Scouting is without a doubt significantly cheaper than club sports (which some estimates state are growing at as high as 43% year-over-year for membership); however, summer camp is expensive, way more expensive than a troop setting up it's own 7 day long term camp. I can simply not blame a parent for wanting their scouts to come home from any resident camp scenario with maximum merit badges and awards. Over the last 3 years, summer camp has cost me $350-$500 a head depending on the year/specific resident camp. I know for a fact that I can feed the scouts like kings and set up a 7 day camping experience at a state park for $71 a head. At the same time the Camping MB and OA eligibility require long term camping, not resident camping. 

My kids and I might stop going to summer camp after 2026; they are getting tired of the experience, and I am getting tired of the price and lack of ROI. My youngest would rather go on a family based wilderness campout, my middle kid would prefer cooking higher quality meals for himself, my oldest is sick of all the younger scouts, and I can't believe how horrible the cost to return ratio is. Summer camp 2026 is going to cost my family $1600 and a week of missed work (if we even go in 2026, my oldest is currently pitching a competing national park trip to my other two 😛 ). 

Encourage you to do this!  Our Scouts chose to do a week long Troop camp in lieu of an "corporate" Summer Camp.

Scouts planned menus and cooked all meals themselves, by patrol.  We rotated those duties so each Scout could either finish the requirements for First Class, or complete Cooking Merit Badge, if First Class was already done.

We rented a private island in a nearby river, Sunday afternoon to Saturday at noon.  Included archery (IAW BSA rules 😛 ), canoes with all gear, and a 4 hour float trip on the river (with transportation).  Adults taught Archery. Wilderness Survival, Cooking, Fishing, Motorboating, and  we even offered Environmental Science, but had no takers...  Scouts loved playing in the river every day (with life jackets on).  We went off island daily for fresh water and to renew our reusable ice packs.  Each patrol brought their food for the first few days, and went went off island for shopping trips on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons. 

Scouts had a great campfire on Friday night where each Patrol did a Song, a skit, and a cheer.  It was one of the best campfire programs I have seen in all my years.

And the average cost was $303.40 per head.  (Some patrols cost more or less, depending on the food they shopped for.)  That is less than half the cost of "corporate" Summer Camp fees in our area.

If we could find a place to camp for free, then your number checks... it would have cost us about $75 per head.

If you can do a week program for $71 per head, the go for it!!!

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Trust me I know. I am lamenting the fact that units can care less about growing the Scout instead of growing the number of Eagles.

Sadly the SM was part of the problem. When he took over the troop, many Scouts transferred out to ours.  So it was known what was going on,  but nothing to be done about it outside the COR. 

 

Both family and SM gamed the system. Family left our troop because we insured Scouts actually did what they were supposed to. They specifically went to that troop because they were "high speed low drag." SM picked summer  and winter camps known for giving away MBs. When discussing summer camp last year, the family referred to to summer camp as a place to "purchase MBs." 

It is extremely sad for the Scout. He has not really grown much over the years. He acts like a Tenderfoot still. And family is not helping as they are pushing and pushing to get Eagle. 

But I am mad that there is nothing anyone can do about the situation, i.e. just signing stuff off, except the COR replacing Scouters. And trust me the SM knew better; I trained him. 

And it is frustrating because if anyone needed Scouting, the Life Scout did.

There is one thing that you can do... Do not participate in the masquerade.  You are only responsible for what you do, so maintain your integrity, and do not sign off anything you know you shouldn't.

I have made many a Scout a little frustrated and many a parent perhaps a little angry when I refused to sign off something that I did not personally see or test.

Scout: "I tied a diagonal lashing on the camping trip last weekend!"

Me: "Excellent, let me see it you do it again."

<Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing.>

Me: "OK, let's review how to do this lashing." <demonstrates>

<Scout ties diagonal lashing.> "Ok, will you sign me off on that?"

Me: "Yes, I will sign you off next week when you show it to me again.  Practice and read your Scout Handbook if you need any more pointers."

<Next week, Scout cannot tie diagonal lashing.>  <Wash, rinse, repeat.>

At some point, I get push back from parents or even other leaders.  Then, I pull out the Scout Handbook and reference the four steps of advancement. (which every Scout must know, as a requirement for the Scout badge.)

1.  You learn.  ..."you learn and practice skills that are required for advancement..."

2.  You are tested.  "Once you feel that you have mastered a skill, a leader tests you and passes you on the requirement."

I explain that, in my world of Scouting, if a Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing from one week to the next, then he has not mastered that skill.

There are other leaders who do sign off something immediately, or upon the Scout saying he has done it, without seeing a demonstration of mastery.

I am only responsible for what I do.

23 minutes ago, Tron said:

Yeah I am not sure if that number is accurate (not your fault, nationals lack of transparency). My understanding is that a lot of councils do not have SE right now. I know that in my CST there are 5 without an SE right now, two have not had an SE since 2024. I think you assumption on salary is correct (barring some outliers). I work in "captain business land" and if I were at national I would literally just announce and start forcing the plan to merge down to 1 council per state. I was looking at what they did in Michigan and it doesn't look perfect to me but it certainly is a great start to the overhead problem. My council is cutting headcount right now, we're supposedly negotiating "shared services" asset pooling, and cost sharing with surrounding councils. I wish they would just rip the band-aid off and just tell us which new CSP to buy 😛

Wish we would go back to these:

Those would never change.  (Well, almost never...)

28 minutes ago, Tron said:

Council Service Territory maps were updated last night. It's not clear which councils merged but it looks like at least 1 council in California is merged out and 1 council in Pennsylvania or New Jersey is merged out as well. 

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/11-21-2025-Council-Service-Territories-Map-with-HQs.pdf

8 minutes ago, Tron said:

Every time I have seen a structured removal of voting ability or removal of input ability it was caused by the ruling bodies desire to remove or reduce dissent to a pending action. I've seen this in other non-profits and in local governments. This type of action always preceded a controversial policy change.  I wonder if this is the fallout of the Nassau and Norfolk councils voting to not merge and then being forced to after all of Long Island scouting went bankrupt? There are a lot of councils just digging in and refusing to be part of the team right now. Is this a mechanism to remove the dissent at the various localish levels? 

Concur with your assessment.  My extended guess... National wants to move more rapidly with consolidation of councils, and this will prepare the way...

We are potentially making much ado about nothing here.  As outlined in another post, this is a leaked draft memo that could amount to a whole lot of nothing. 

When SECWAR or POTUS comment on it, or you see a memo with a signature on it, then it will mean something.  

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

is this in preparation of all the forced mergers headed our way as some council have contested the mergers already

This, yes...  prevent the COR uprising to vote against a merger...  gotta remove the potential power struggle with those pesky volunteers, you know.

First, a leaked draft memo does not equal policy.  This memo could have been generated by some mid-level staffer with an axe to grind against Scouting America, and may never see the light of day as an official communique.

The real ignorance lies in all of the articles already attributing this as coming from the Secretary.  I promise you, no Secretary of any department drafts their own memos like this, and these draft memoranda go through numerous revisions and legal review before being issued.

Having worked at these levels with the Department of Defense (or so it was called when I was on active duty), I can easily posit this memo was the result of some staff task issued at the request of the National Guard Bureau to 'justify withdrawing support to Joint Task Force - National Scout Jamboree as a drain on resources.'  But that is an educated guess on my part.

https://www.wv.ng.mil/News/Article/3463243/a-decade-of-diligence-joint-task-force-national-scout-jamboree-kicks-off-10-yea/

In other posts, I have commented that Scouting America, over the past years, has, indeed, lost some credibility as a "meritocracy", (while maintaining the guise of one) as the quality of instruction and program at summer camps has declined, and Scouts are being given badges rather than earning them.

Let's have some tactical patience and see what develops with this story.  Hopefully, the press will show due diligence and ask the right questions to flesh out what is really going on here.  It would not surprise me at all if the burden of logistical support is withdrawn, considering the dwindling attendance at jamboree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Scout_jamboree_(Scouting_America)  Nor would it surprise me if the initial enlistment rank advancement given to Eagle Scouts is withdrawn, given the observed lower quality potential recruits we (collectively) are producing.

Giving a rank advancement upon enlistment to Eagle Scout and Gold Award recipients is an endorsement of those programs...

49 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

chartered organizations will no longer be automatic voting members of the local councils.

Removing the possibility of the grass roots uprising as a "threat" to power over the organization.

6 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

We've tried doing it, but I feel like we have too many Scouts who are there out of force.  They play around, which frustrates the Scouts who want to be there, and nothing gets done.  

We just had this discussion at a leaders meeting... Our Committee Chair is going to communicate with parents about this and try to tell them something to this effect...  "If your son does not want to go to Scouts, please do not force him.  This is detrimental to all of us, and your Scout will only wind up resenting you.  Let them choose, please."

35 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

National could remove the double standard, i.e. 2 females can take males youth out, but 2 males cannot take female youth out.

 

While I agree with your sentiment, I understand why they do this.

It is men, by far, who are statistically more likely to appear in the reports, or be convicted, of sexual abuse (notice how I phrased that...)

https://www.ussc.gov/research/quick-facts/sexual-abuse

From that page, note that ~92% of offenders were men, and ~72% of offenders had little or no prior criminal history.

It is not about you or me, it's about "us."  We men appear to be the overwhelming majority of the problem.

I do believe there is a lot more adult female to youth male abuse that goes on that is not reported, and that the societal tide is turning on reporting and convicting those women who abuse.  (See recent reports, particularly from school settings.) But the numbers will never near parity with men as perpetrators.

This is a policy made through the input of actuarials, lawyers, and public relations folks, among others.

That was quick... this just in my inbox:

Statement Regarding NPR Story on Scouting and the U.S. Military Scouting Family,   This morning NPR aired a story about a supposed leaked Pentagon memo directing the U.S. Military to sever ties with Scouting America. According to the story, the draft memo, which has not been sent to Congress, indicates that the Secretary of War plans to cease support for youth in Scouting programs on military bases in the U.S. and overseas, cut support for the National Jamboree, and eliminate increases in pay grade for Eagle Scouts who enlist in the military.   Listen to the story here or you can read the story here.   We are surprised and deeply saddened by this news. The Scouting movement has had a strong relationship with our nation’s military going back more than a century. From the tremendous support of the West Virginia National Guard at our National Jamborees to Scout troops that provide stability for the children of military families deployed around the globe, our nation’s military has walked side-by-side with Scouts for generations. An enormous percentage of those in our military academies are Scouts and Eagle Scouts. Our Scouts and leaders admire and are inspired by our military heroes. Many of our Scouts trade their Scouting uniforms for the uniforms of our nation’s armed forces.   According to the story, the draft memo purports that the Scouting organization is “no longer a meritocracy” and does not hold members to high standards. This view is clearly uninformed. Badges and ranks are not given, they are earned. Just ask any Eagle Scout. Young men and young women alike thrive in Scouting. Scouts wear an American flag on their sleeves and swear a duty to God and country.   Scouting isn’t something we do. It’s something we are.   Scouting will never turn its back on the children of our military families. Just as we always have, Scouts will continue to put duty to country above duty to self and will remain focused on serving all American families in the U.S. and abroad.   Scouting is and has always been a nonpartisan organization. For more than a century, we’ve worked with every U.S. presidential administration – Republican and Democrat – focusing on our common goal of building future leaders grounded in integrity, responsibility, and service. We will continue our efforts to work with the Pentagon to address this critical issue.   At the same time, I encourage each of you to contact your senators and congressional representatives immediately and ask for their support. You can locate contact information for your representative at these links: House and Senate.   Some of you may be discouraged by this news, but, just like the service men and women of our military, a Scout is brave. I see this as a clear call to redouble our efforts. All youth are in crisis today. They need the fun, adventure and the challenging, character-building programs of Scouting more than ever.   Support your local councils. Lift up your fellow volunteer leaders and Scouting families. Let’s prepare the next generation for lives of purpose and impact. Yours in Scouting, Roger Krone Chief Scout Executive President & CEO Scouting America