InquisitiveScouter
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Posts posted by InquisitiveScouter
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53 minutes ago, jcousino said:
I am in no way wanting to restrict landowners using good management practices, but it looks like one thing, do something else if there is money to be made, scouting = $$
Agreed... that's why I said a bit more background or perspective in the article would go a long way to negating that perception.
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10 hours ago, jcousino said:
very impressive project. i would unfortunately have to say that scout involvement violates the scouting LNT principles as this sheds provide a mineral source for a lot of small animals so removing something that is part of natural process violates leave what you find and respect wildlife. but it does sound interesting money or principles. my 2 cents
@jcousinoand @mrjohns2, it would have been nice to have a Wildlife Manager's perspective in the article to provide some balance and background on this. (We would hope that the area is under good wildlife management, as it is a National Elk Refuge.)
You are both correct, that, under the principles of Leave No Trace, we should "Leave What You Find". However, for all principles, there should be an overriding understanding that the owners and/or managers of the land have the prerogative to allow activities which might seem to be in conflict with the principles.
Hunting in the National Elk Refuge is an example. The land managers know the herd is too large for the land to sustain, so they permit the hunting of elk to cull the herd to reduce the numbers to restore a balance.
As I understand it, the elk antler hunt is a strictly managed, limited time, restricted entry event, so as to keep some of the antler resource in place. https://www.jacksonwy.gov/668/Antler-Shed-Hunt
it is also quite funny to see the other side of this... now, some businesses are upset that the land managers and game commission are limiting the number of elk hunting licenses because the herd is getting smaller.
'The outfitters blamed the herd’s downturn on wolves.
“The pressure from predation up there is horrific,” Taylor said.'
LOL... that's the mentality we really need to change... good luck 😜
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4 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:
-Historic scout camp to be preserved in Adirondack Park - Sabattis Scout Reservation closes - Longhouse Council
Historic scout camp to be preserved in Adirondack Park | NCPR News
I have spent a good deal of time at Sabbatis SR, (and at Sabbatis Adventure Camp, already sold...https://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-news/2021/11/sabattis-camp-sold-as-scouts-declare-bankruptcy-2/ )
Two beautiful properties that were the essence of Scouting. Now gone.
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54 minutes ago, jcousino said:
it's a bit heavy to think that they will carry with them the burden of the LIE forever more than likely 10 minutes after they left the event they didn't remember anything about the event if I'm dealing with normal scouts that I see scouting needs a 13th law but it'll never happen they need a law that deals with integrity scouting has integrity. integrity it is very rare. if you persist in doing the right thing by trying to force scouting to have integrity you'll get a letter from the office saying we no longer need your services you're using up too much of our of our time thank you very much.
yes, you are most likely correct. But it did help shift the focus of the two to deal with what they were thinking about the situation.
As for integrity... it is built into Trustworthy.
If I had a 13th point of the Scout Law, it would be that a Scout is Grateful.
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2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
I taught at 1 MBU, and was never asked back. I told the folks running it, it would be a partial UNLESS the Scout did work before hand to do the stuff I was unable to do at the event. out of about 50- 60 people in 2 sessions, 1 person did the work before coming to the MBU. Another Scout contacted me after the event with the work. No one else contacted me about the badge. And the folks running it never asked me again. Same event, but a friend's encounter. Crime Prevention MB had a disruptive Scout. Was sent out after a few problems. At the end of the day, complains he never got Crime Prevention MB that he "Paid for."
Thankfully my district knows not to convert a camporee into a MBU. They did that 1 year. Attendance was poor, and only 2 units liked it.
Went with our Troop to a Merit Badge College our council organized some years ago. Two Scouts wanted to do Drafting Merit Badge for one of their activities. For Drafting Merit Badge, the pre-req was the formatting of the two sheets, and doing a drawing and lettering project.
Having some minor experience in drafting, I guided them both on the research and completion of the pre-reqs.
We went to the MB College... there were about 25 Scouts in this class. Counselor was an experienced Scouter and draftsman in the prestigious university we were at (Ivy League school)
Only the two from our Troop had done the pre-reqs. The MBC at the end of the class handed out signed blue cards for completion to all Scouts and told them they were "On Their Honor" to complete the pre-reqs before they gave the blue card to their unit leader.
I was floored, but I was not going to confront the MBC in front of the Scouts. After he dismissed them, I spoke to him, and tried, tactfully, to tell him those should have been partials, and that it would have been better if he had recognized the work done by the Scouts who made the effort to complete the badge.
He said flatly that he knew this was not in accordance with the Guide to Advancement, but this was they way he had always done it, and there were never any complaints. I remember he said something to the effect of "...most of them would never get the badge otherwise."
I told him I would file a complaint with the council, because this violated the Guide to Advancement, his own Scout Oath and Law, and put those Scouts in a really bad position. The blue card states, "The applicant has personally appeared before me and demonstrated to my satisfaction that all requirements have been met for ..." and he was willfully lying on the form.
When I filed the form with council, guess what happened??? Nothing. (Counselor was also a regular donor...)
How does that meet our mission " ... to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." ???
I did have a chat with our two Scouts later. Both were upset they had done the work when others hadn't, and they felt cheated.
I told them they were not cheated... it was the other Scouts who were cheated. These two had gotten their just reward because they had earned it. The others were give the burden of a lie they will carry with them always.
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5 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:
Are you serious? How is that possible?
My son is Cub-age now, but when I was a council camp staffer in the early 2000s, 4 MBs was the max at summer camp. There were 2 sessions in the morning and 2 sessions in the afternoon. They ran Monday through Thursday with Friday being a "free" day. We were accused of overscheduling kids back then.
Local camp runs six MB periods during the day, and an evening period on two different nights. That's 8 badges... and for many of the "academic" ones, you can bring your "workbook" filled out to one of the instructors (not a counselor, btw), and be given the badge.
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"Heck, you can probably
earnbe given one or more Citizen MBs just while at camp if the scout does some self-study before camp."There, fixed that for you
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1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:
Yes. IMHO, this phenomena grew as camporee patrol competition gave way to weekend merit badgerees.
Mastering requires practice. And the best incentive to practice is competition.
My $0.02,
P.S. What If? The nights camping requirements were tweaked to add x number of patrol competitions?
Wait... what is this "patrol" thing you speak of??? LOL
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6 hours ago, Tron said:
What I am seeing is that there is no goldilocks zone for todays scouts. It's either the troop is a meatgrinder and only scouts with professional proficiency are getting things signed off or the opposite where anything can get signed off.
I think the answer is unit leaders (all of us) and national need to push WAY WAY more outdoors programming. Some of the program needs to shift back towards scout skills emphasis; I would personally yank some of the non scout skill eagle MB and replace them with orienteering, wilderness survival, and backpacking.I have never witnessed the inner workings of this "meatgrinder" or "professional proficiency" you speak of. What do you mean by this, say, with reference to specific skills?? Are you referring to a Troop which tests Scouts multiple times, or where, during an SM conference, the SM tests skills and refuses to sign off that conference unless the Scout demonstrates proficiency?
I have heard of units like that, but either they do not last long, or the adults who create that climate move on fairly quickly and the pendulum moves toward the model (or swings past to the "anything can get signed off." )
The requirements themselves demand some level of proficiency...
For example, the First Class requirement to demonstrate a square lashing... it had better start with a clove hitch on one pole, have three full wraps which alternate inside and outside of the previous wraps, two full fraps, and end with a clove hitch on the other pole. All this is according to the Scout Handbook. If it doesn't have those elements, it's not a square lashing, and that doesn't get signed off.
I note that the description of "The Four Steps of Advancement" in the Scout Handbook says, in step "2. You are tested: Once you feel that you have mastered a skill, a leader tests you..." [emphasis added]
That might be where some people go off the deep end... the word mastery is very subjective, and means different things to different people. But, I find the word "mastery" in no requirements themselves.
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5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
So as you may know, my troop recruits by word of mouth. Mostly transfers from other units. I am seeing a really depressing trend, Scouts coming in with skills signed off, but have no idea what to do or are not able to do it.
From one troop we have a guy who was signed off on a bunch of stuff through First Class, including passing a swim test. Yet when we did the annual swim test, could barely pass the beginner test. When I asked about it, he said he didn't remember passing a swim test, but his old troop signed off on it after summer camp. When asked if he took instructional swim ever, he said no.
We got another potential Scout, he is checking out other troops now, visit us a few times. When I asked about what rank he is, experience with o other troop, etc. It is a deer on the headlights. When working on Scout skills, deer in the headlights when asked to do them. He doesn't even know what rank he is. When I finally met the dad, dad said he is First Class and dad has all the paperwork. When I told dad once he joins the troop, I can access SCOUTBOOK, and whatever is missing I can use his handbook, dad said he doesn't have a handbook, but he has a folder of what he has done.
Finally, we got a Life Scout transfer in. Took him camping, and forgot a bunch of gear, including gear I sent reminders on. He didn't know how to pack for a campout, nor set up a tent. When asked about camping, he said troop went camping 2, maybe 3 times a year. And summer camp was on your own as provisional. Previous to the campout he asked about his remaining MBs. I checked Scoutbook, and when I mentioned Citizenship in the Community, he told me he should have that because we went to the city meeting. When I told him more is involved with the MB, he told me that his previous SM told him all he needed to do was the city meeting and he got it. The topic of board of reviews came up talking to another Scout. He asked what they were. When I explained what they were, and asked about them in his old troop, he told me, "Oh, Mr. (SM's Name) and Mr. (CC's (?) name) said they don't have time to do one, but I got the rank."
Is anyone else seeing this trend of folks getting signed off, but not actually doing the work? And of course, once it is in Scoutbook, it is a done deal.
Yes.
And have seen stuff like this for years... like, starting in the mid to late 1990's. It falls in line with some council-run Summer Camp merit badge "mill" models many have created. (Some camps are known for this (ours) and are packed with Scouts each year.)
Not unusual for a Scout to do a week of camp here and walk away with 8 to 11 MBs...
And still not know how to tie a taut line hitch 😜, fold a flag, start a fire, identify some common animals and plants, swim 100 yards (much less float and pass the Swimmer check), read a map, use a compass, measure 100 yards, know the difference between frostbite and hypothermia, or the difference between heat exhaustion and heat stroke (or treatment for any of the four) etc. etc. etc.
If councils will not run a program with integrity, units will follow suit...
We have a Troop of about 45 Scouts... less than 20% of them come to me when they want to learn a skill and get signed off.
But those Scouts know their stuff, and are the ones approved by the SM to sign off other Scouts.
The other 80+% have other leaders they will seek out for sign offs, because they know they'll get it easy. (The leaders knowledge is Fair to Poor also... but, hey! they did IOLS!!)
The really sad part is, I adhere to the mantra: "The requirements, and nothing more! The requirements, and nothing less!"
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On 4/2/2025 at 11:47 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:
BTW, 2019 numbers for Scouts: 798,516
2023 numbers for Scouts: 392,275
A 50.87% loss over four years... ouch
Prepare for an even more loss for 2024...
OK, so 2024 is 388,941 for Scouts. A ~1% drop from 2023, (but probably including the numbers covered by the grace period??)
Cub Scout numbers from 2023: 574,365 2024: 589,253 a ~2.6% increase. Let's hope that is reality, because Cubs is the primary feeder for Scouts.
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8 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:
name-calling
Other than "lawyer" and "Scout", what names did I call you, pray tell?
Upon further reexamination, I retract both.
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2 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:
I practice law for a living. Over 45 years now.
Legal analysis is not a beauty contest.
I stand by my analysis.
Well, your legal analysis is shoddy. You have assumed the parents' intent without any knowledge other than the OP. And cast several other aspersions on them without any verifiable facts. As a lawyer, you should know better. As a Scout, you should be ashamed.
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And I'll bet you the BSA Annual Report had numbers as of year end, which would include those under the grace period... that is, people who did not pay their renewal fees under the new system, but were being carried on the rolls anyway.
So, whenever we do get to see the 2024 Annual Report, you could probably cut those numbers by 20-25% to get closer to reality.
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1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:
How about vs 4/1 of 2024? That would be a more apples to apples, no?
I wasn't making that comparison, but was showing the effects of hiding numbers with a "grace" period.
But, since you asked...
From Apr 24 to Apr 25:
Cub Scout: 2.4% loss, with a loss of 8 Packs
Scout: 5.7% loss, with a loss of 8 Troops
Venturing: 49% loss, with a loss of 1 Crew (it was a big and popular Crew)
Exploring: 11% loss, with a loss of 3 Posts
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BTW, 2019 numbers for Scouts: 798,516
2023 numbers for Scouts: 392,275
A 50.87% loss over four years... ouch
Prepare for an even more loss for 2024...
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16 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:
April 1, 2025 (I hope this is NOT an April Fools Joke!!!)
Unlike recent years, this year Scouting America delivered on time as required by its U.S. Charter, its annual Report to the Nation.
Announcement links:
P.S. I will now look for the actual report ~RS
Good luck finding it... I looked for about 20 minutes, with no success. I'm sure you'll share when able
P.S. Last one posted on BSA website?? 2019
https://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/about-the-bsa/annual-reports/
Although, you can view 2023's here...
https://www.scouting.org/about/annual-report/
But scan through the links... what's with not putting them up after 2019?
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OK, the numbers are in....
Look at the numbers hidden by the "grace" period....
As of end of March 2025 (3 days ago) our council, compared to Dec 2024:
Cub Scout Growth Rate, loss of slightly more than 6%
Scouts Growth Rate, gain slightly more 7%
Venturing Growth Rate, loss of slightly more than 10%
Exploring Growth Rate, gain of almost 28%
Overall, Total Growth Rate gain of slightly less than 1%
Now, three days later, with the grace period expired, looking at comparison to Dec 2024 numbers:
Cub Scout Growth Rate, loss of almost 25%
Scouts Growth Rate, loss of almost 15%
Venturing Growth Rate, loss of almost 49%
Exploring Growth Rate, loss of slightly more than 11%
Overall, Total Growth Rate loss of almost 20%
(Exact numbers and percentages not posted, to protect the innocent 😜 )
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Maybe we could counsel the MB with a Scout playing these:
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Programs like this are indeed legit. Do not contact anyone at council until you thoroughly understand all the info below.
OK, going through your post item by item...
"We have a scenario right now where a registered parent of a scout has donated money (say $500) through a company's Charitable Matching program they have. It's a big banking company and the program is legit. They expected the money to be matched, then when the company matched it and sent a check through our chartered church to our troop as a $1000 (for example)."
Let's verify who the actual donees are first. To whom did the parents write their check? Was the check made out to Troop X or some other recipient? To whom did the Company make out their portion, AND, to which Employer Identification Number (EIN) did they credit the donation? (This info should be on their check or the check stub (or some accompanying letter.) These company programs may only make the donations to a legitimate 501 c (3) charity, and each charity has an IRS assigned EIN. You can try to find the EIN / Charitable Organization using this tool: https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/ Make sure the EIN matches the CO name.
Now, if the Bank put in the EIN for your local council, or the National council, then you have a problem. The money then technically belongs to the council, or whoever is listed by EIN on the check. [Your Troop is most likely not registered as a 501 c(3). It could be.]
Let's assume for a second that everything is as it should be... that is, 1) Your unit is not a separate charitable org. 2) the parent check was written to Troop X, and 3) the bank check indicates the EIN for your CO. If these are true, then that money technically belongs to the CO. Did you or anyone inform/coordinate this donation with the CO? Does the Treasurer for the CO understand that this donation is to be used for the Troop? There are other details involved with this, but let's leave it at that for the moment.
What the parent proposes, giving the donation money solely for the use of their Scout, is ILLEGAL!!! Do not, under any circumstances do this. As @Tron points out, there is a principal the IRS looks at called Inurement (or private benefit) https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/inurement-private-benefit-charitable-organizations
If your unit gives any of this donated money (either the check from the parent's or the matched bank donation, as the two amounts are "tied" together) to only that Scout, then you violate federal law, specifically the Internal Revenue Code passed by Congress. In doing so you also would place your CO's charitable organization status in jeopardy!
One way you could use the money is to give each and every Scout an equal share of the total sum, and credit those in Scoutbook. But, even that could present problems if the amounts are large. The IRS has given NO specific guidance on this. So, if the equal share for each Scout was $25, no one would blink an eye at that. If the equal share for each Scout is $2500, then you are in troubled waters...
Here are some related threads you might read to gain a more fulsome understanding.
If you need more specificity on this, and you are not comfortable posting information here, you may DM me...
Regards
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Off to a Troop meeting, but will chime in on this later.
Tread carefully...
And no, the money does not go to the Scout... yikes
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1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
One reason why my troop is still alive: we DO stuff. Except for 2 members, all of my Scouts transferred from other troops. And one of the 2 had brothers who transferred into the troop.
Sad thing is this: it can be very, VERY (emphasis) discouraging for some Scouts who see the 'Paper Eagles" I cannot tell you how many times in the past few years I have seen Scouts discouraged and not want to earn Eagle, because of "paper Eagles." Sadly I have met too many folks that believe summer camp/ merit badge weekends/etc are "purchasing" MBs.
Agreed.
I think BSA was hoist by its own petard on this one. The focus of Summer Camp is, generally, the merit badge program. This is a mistake, because it turned the focus to Advancement.
And then, to do it on the cheap, camps hire 15 & 16 year olds to teach MBs, when this inherently violates the "spirit" of what the MB program is about. (This is where you can go down the rabbit hole of the responsibilities of unit leaders and "actual" merit badge counselors as well...)
Summer Camp is a "pay your fee, get your degree." operation.
On the whole, we have a huge integrity problem when it comes to Summer Camps and the Merit Badge program. Parents, Scouts staffs, unit leaders, paid professionals, National... all complicit. This is one of our biggest "dirty little secrets."
I used to work with Scouts after camp to go through their MBs and ask them how they completed the requirements. Many, many times, I got the answer "Oh, we didn't do that one." or "My counselor said we didn't have to do that." or some such response. After working with Scouts to correct, I filed quite a few of these:
https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-800_WB.pdf
Know what became of them? Nothing... ignored
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4 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:
Scouts can easily read and understand requirements. They see that much of the advancement now is focused on classroom and less on experiential learning. Youth want action, not more school. Go and DO
They know who the "academic" or "paper" Eagle Scouts are, too.
"If the minimums weren't good enough, they wouldn't be the minimums."
I do not like that way of doing business, but the world is full of folks who accept that currency.
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4 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:
Raise money and hire more people to raise money
One of the primary reasons the organization is failing, IMO.
Merit Badge pamphlets now FREE on scouting.org!
in Advancement Resources
Posted
That, my friend, is WONDERFUL news... thanks for the notice.