InquisitiveScouter

1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

And where, here on this forum, is the voice (spokesperson) of National???

There'll be no official voice here. Not enough exposure, and no way to generate revenue from it, amongst other things.

On 6/14/2024 at 9:52 AM, fred8033 said:

I love the GTA and G2SS being free as PDFs

Me too, except the pdf of the G2SS is WAYYYYY out of date.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/

This is a huge foul. 

We often take trips to places with no cell/data service.  I download the pdf to my phone for reference whilst out and about.

@Chisos is correct.  You cannot take a CC off and leave the position blank.

You should be able to drag and drop the new CC first, save the change, then expire the outgoing CC position by moving them to Unit Scouter Reserve. 

On 5/3/2024 at 6:11 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

And, for the history buffs, see page 49 in the attachment, right side, #10.

 

2007 Printing, BSAGuideToSafeScouting.pdf 1.25 MB · 6 downloads

See this post... This policy was solidly in place within the last 20 years, but is no longer found.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Unfortunately that doesn't encourage them to join scouting. I mean, if so many people know the benefits then why aren't they involved? Thats an important paradox to understand.

It's just my hunch but maybe people are just parroting what they've heard and really have no idea what Scouting is about.

Most scouts, when asked if they are trustworthy,  cheerful,  friendly, etc, will say yes because the scout law says "a scout is ..." so they must be. I've come to the conclusion that I'm none of those things. I certainly try but I'll never live up to that standard. It's easy when everything is going right but wind and cold and hunger and whiny kids and traffic and some other guy being an idiot and, when I'm doing really well, I can hopefully stay ahead of that welling up of anger and just let it go. It's the difference between selfish and selfless and everyone fights that battle. I don't know, maybe a long time ago everyone realized how hard that battle is but these days selfish has won. Teenagers tend towards selfish because they don't have much experience but it seems so much harder now. Or maybe it's always been a struggle.

Either way, we all want absolutes and no pain for our children and yet, the hardest part of being a parent is coming to terms with the need for struggle. Just like noone wants their child to get sick we've found out that colds are needed to develop a good immune system. So it goes that struggling with selfish is the only way to develop humility. How many parents of 11 year olds understand that? An 11 year old has barely learned to walk when it comes to humility and their parents only know that the struggle they went through as a child is something they don't want for their kids. They look at the kool-aid that character comes from doing requirements and they rightfully have their doubts. Sure, maybe scouts does develop character but not for my kid.

It would be really useful to ask those 90% why they don't put their kids in scouts.

Romans 3:21-28

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

You realize you will always fall short. Good on you.  What is the remedy?  Grace.  Accept it, brother 😜

5 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Scouter - we will tell you what you need to know and when you need to know it....and be happy we are engaging with the peasant leaders at all

Signed

BSA National Leadership

If we wanted you to have an opinion, we'd give you ours 😜 

34 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

1. Legacy members and Volunteers. 

I grew up in the Scouting program, and the SM and ASMs were the "father figures" I looked up and sought advice from. My fellow Scouts were like brothers to me. In essence Scouting was my surrogate family. I continued on as a Scouter even when I had no kids, because I NEEDED to give back. There was no way I could ever repay my SM and ASMs for every thing they did for me. Closest I could do is give back.

When I did have kids, I wanted them to have some of the same experiences and joys that I had as a Scout, and if possible even better ones.

But the program is not the same as it was. The program has been watered down. Instead of adventure, the focus is now "Getting Eagle." The old standard of advancement was " Master the skills" and "The badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (emphasis added), not what he has done." Now the standard is "A badge recognizes what a Scout has done toward achieving the primary goal of personal growth. " Look at the number "academic" requirements in MBs, as well as purely academic MBs there are these days.  And with National saying they will be "Simplifiying" the Scouts BSA program, there are a lot of concerns, including from BSA "cheerleaders" like Mike Walton about watering down the program further.

And let's not forget the bad treatment of longtime volunteers by not only pros, but also newer volunteers. I have given examples in other posts of the mistreatment of experienced Scouters by pros. But go on some of any social media website, including this one, and you will have newer volunteers denigrating and insulting experienced volunteers and their concerns. I know I have been told in person and online that "you don't know what you are talking about," "(citation from G2SS, G2Am, etc) is wrong you can do..." and 'Scouting needs to change with the times."

So a lot of volunteers , especially on district and council levels, are throwing in the towel. And trust me, it is EXTREMELY hard to replace them with folks witht he same knowledge, skills, abilities, time, and treasure.

2. Nostalgia.

When you hear the terms "Scout," "Eagle", etc folks get images of the Norman Rockwell paintings and  Follow Me, Boys.  Scouting over the years has done so much good, that it has a positive image.

Sadly the paper-pushing is slowly changing that adventure into another classroom.

Worse, the dark side of Scouting is making an appearance, and folks are applying today's standards to activities 40+ years ago. Falsifying membership has slowly been coming out. The biggest obviously is the CSA Scandal. Whether you agree it is BSA's fault or not, it has hurt BSA.

To help the organization survive in a state that they want (instead of looking for ways to change it for the better), BSA professionals expel dissenters.

Although dated, here is a blog which elaborates on this: (not a Daily KOS fan, in general, but I do read stuff there to learn how others think...)

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2006/3/4/191709/-Supressing-Dissent-in-Boy-Scouts-a-model-for-the-GOP

From the writing:

"The combination of lap dog boards and control of senior and middle volunteer management positions give the pros an immensely powerful position from which to block reform (and protect their own positions).  It will take a grass roots rebellion or a determined legal attack at the top to actually reform the system nationally.  Small determined groups with strong ethics and strong stomachs can achieve local results but, unless the tide shifts nationally, the system always tries to return to the old status quo."

With the CC's approval, another committee member could sign on his behalf.

8 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I'd proceed at just at legal limit so folks could catch up.

Which means they would have to exceed the legal limit?

Thank you for trying to do this.

And welcome to another headache of mistreatment by paid staffers.

If your integrity and doing things with excellence are important to you, then yes, pursue.

If you are not the type to jump through bureaucratic hoops, and you have a unit leader with access to Scoutbook who will approve MBs on your behalf, then consider that option.

We are in a similar situation.  We have an adult leader who submitted the application in Feb.  He was approved as a MBC in March (about a month later), is populated in Scoutbook, but has NO MBs associated (yes, this is a two step process.)

Our Registrar is overworked and underpaid.  I spoke with District Advancement Chair... since this leader is not counseling any "restricted" MBs, we told him to go ahead and counsel in good faith.

He will fill out a blue card, and we will approve things in Scoutbook based on the signed blue card.

Sometimes you have to "help" the system.

16 hours ago, Tron said:

scouts experience, not a retest

Recommend a different thread.

I never retest the Scout.

Yes, we discuss the experience.  "How did you like the badge?" "Tell me about a challenge you had, and what you did to deal with it." "Did the Merit Badge Counselor require you to do anything more than the written requirements in order to receive the badge?" "Would you recommend this badge or counselor to your friends?  Why or why not?" etc.

The attitude here is not to play "gotcha", but to gauge the Scout's experience with the badge and counselor.  So, if a Scout comes to me with a Hiking MB card, for example, I would love to hear about his 20-miler.  That is no small feat!  If the Scout says, "Well, we never did a 20-mile hike", then we have a problem, and I have a further conversation with the Scout along the lines of previous posts.  Then I have a conversation with the MBC, or the Program Director at camp. 

I'm not being the Grand Inquisitor as you seem to think.  But I do not turn a blind eye to unethical behavior, when it arises.  That would only perpetuate the "dirty little secret".  Over time, I am seeing more and more instances of Scouts not completing requirements as stated, and Merit Badge Counselors (or Camp Staff Instructors) signing off badges when they should not.

"The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

This includes the Merit Badge program...

1 hour ago, Alec27 said:

Mike, 

I think the issue is that per the "Fundraising" form you attached, that we already know about, that is in question is to "raise funds" meaning a donation is being solicited or asked for.  So in essence, you are "raising funds" by asking for donations and that's what the "fundraising form" addresses.  Here's the problem.  No funds were solicited.  Nobody was asked.  Nothing was raised.  My son's project donor came forward and volunteered funding of the project on his own initiative and directly to the beneficiary.  So exactly what "fundraising" was done?  Per the form "If people or companies will be asked for donations of money, materials, supplies, or tools, how will this be done and who will do it?*  My son can fill out this form to appease but how exactly is he supposed to answer that?  I guess in the end it comes down to how the BSA deciphers the difference between a solicited donation and an unsolicited donation.  Thoughts ?

@Alec27,

He does not need the form.

If you need confirmation from the "chain of command", have your candidate check with the District or Council Approving Authority AFTER he submits his proposal.

See the Preliminary Cost Estimate section: "Note that if your project requires a fundraising application, you do not need to submit it with your proposal."

Worrying about the form now is putting the cart before the horse.

During the proposal phase, he only need answer the question: "Fundraising: Explain how you will raise the money to pay for the total costs. If you intend to seek donations of actual materials, supplies, etc., then explain how you plan to do that, too."

You said, "The kid is building a deck and the whole thing is being funded by a private donation from one of our unit members who is also a parent who is also a friend of the family. "

So, his answer is as simple as re-wording the instructions from earlier in the Workbook:

"A member of my unit has graciously agreed to provide the funding.  I will fund any supplemental needs myself.  I do not plan to obtain money, materials, supplies, or donations from any other sources, therefore no fundraising application is required."

And leave it at that, for the Workbook.

As mentioned before, there should be an offer of a tax receipt from the beneficiary.  This would be a good discussion for the candidate to have with the donor, AFTER project approval; "Would you like a receipt for your donation for tax purposes?"  If the donor says "Yes", then the Scout should inform the beneficiary, provide the donor information to the beneficiary, and tell the donor he has given the beneficiary the info.  This need only happen during/after project execution.  Not in the proposal or planning phases.  

And the amount is immaterial, for receipt purposes.  If a donor gives $5, the beneficiary should provide a receipt when requested.  

However, the amount threshold where the IRS requires a receipt in order to report the donation at tax time is $250. 

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/charitable-contributions-written-acknowledgments

As @T2Eagle stated before, this is between the donor and the beneficiary.  And your Scout should make it clear to anyone giving money, the money is for XYZ 501 c (3) Non-profit Corporation, not your Scout.  If a specific amount is given beforehand, any overage must either be returned to the donor, or given to the beneficiary.

Happy Hunting

To be a Merit Badge Counselor, you must be 18.

A Summer Camp Counselor (staffer) is not a de facto Merit Badge Counselor.

And ONLY registered Merit Badge Counselors may sign off requirements completions.

You must have never read your Scout Handbook, any Merit Badge pamphlet, taken the Merit Badge Counselor training, or read the Guide to Advancement to have this all jumbled up.

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

Actually, that isn't true. If so, all counselors would need to be 18. They oversee quality control to make sure those that are teaching the MB are holding to the standards, but the adult is not expected to test each scout on each requirement. Just not part of the program or expectations. 

G2A

"There must be attention to each individual’s projects and fulfillment of all requirements. We must know that every Scout—actually and personally—completed them. If, for example, a requirement uses words like “show,” “demonstrate,” or “discuss,” then every Scout must do that. It is unacceptable to award badges on the basis of sitting in classrooms watching demonstrations, or remaining silent during discussions. "

47 minutes ago, Tron said:

Because unit leaders are not supposed to be trained to supervise; BSA leaders are either trained and certified for shooting sports or they are completely unqualified, there is no middle ground. The liability around shooting sports is so risky that there is no room for the arm chair supervisors of the other BSA programs. 

LOL, "arm chair", for real?

Climbing, caving, boating, swimming not risky?  I would venture to say each one of those has far more injuries and deaths in Scouting than range sports.

Have you taken those trainings?  Supervision is not expertise... The trainings are not there to have the unit leader be the subject matter expert for the event.  They are there to inform Scout leaders, "If you want to have this type of event for your unit, here are the points which must be observed..."

Take Climb On Safely, for example... The training in no way qualifies a unit leader to take a unit on a climbing activity.  It does inform the unit leader of the qualifications necessary for certified instructors the unit leader MUST have present, though, to conduct the activity safely.

Or Safe Swim Defense... the unit leader supervising the activity need not be classified as a swimmer.  But, the unit leader must make sure everyone has a swim classification, enforce the buddy system, have trained response personnel designated, and so on.

Same for boating, caving, or your other risky activities.

BTW, this past weekend I saw notes from the briefing to Council Execs on these changes.  Part of the changes are to implement a training course for unit leaders, just like Climb On Safely, Safety Afloat, Cave Safely, etc. 

When it comes out, I'll make sure to post a link for you, so you can read it from your arm chair.
 

1 hour ago, DannyG said:

Thus, the unit leader signs the blue card again after the counselor completes it. That's the check the merit badge is earned. 

Correct.  And that is why I would decline to sign the card if the Scout had not completed the requirements.

17 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

This isn't an opinion, it is policy. If the blue card is signed by the counselor, then the scout has earned it. Your "beef" is with the camp / counselor, the scout should still be awarded the badge. 

No.

Please read Guide to Advancement, 7.0.4.7

"In most cases, with a fair and friendly approach, a Scout who did not complete the requirements will admit it. Short of this, however, if it remains clear under the circumstances that some or all of the requirements could not have been met, then the merit badge is not reported or awarded, and does not count toward advancement. The unit leader then offers the name of at least one other merit badge counselor through whom any incomplete requirements may be finished. Note that in this case a merit badge is not “taken away” because, although signed off, it was never actually earned. "

40 minutes ago, Tron said:

BSA has evaluations. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/Shooting Sports/430-065_WB.pdf

Thanks!  Like I said... not my forte.

Also, I was pointing out the inconsistency that BSA has no Training required for BSA unit leaders to supervise an activity here.  Just the statement in G2SS, "All shooting sports activities held outside of a council’s camp will follow the program as outlined in the BSA National Shooting Sports Manual (www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/Shooting-Sports)." 

33 minutes ago, Tron said:

LOL, he says they have doubled in size while BSA has steeply lost members. Their self reporting that they have 60k members right now, total, nationwide. Trail Life is a joke.

Trail Life is a Scouting program.

Scouting is the movement.  BSA is a business.  You should really separate the two in your thinking.

Otherwise, you miss the point of the article.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/boy-scouts-tragic-mission-departure-left-boys-needing-mentors-competitor-says-alternatives

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Another way to look at this.

4 indoor troop meetings a month

4 indoor PLC meetings a month

1 campout a month

1/9 activities are outdoors.....

We do (about) three meetings per month, with a short PLC after each.  These build up to the outing.  Then, the outing...

The regular meeting night after an outing is a full PLC (so one per month), where they go over all stuff necessary.  The other Scouts/parents get that night off to further recuperate from the outing.

We have one day trip/service project per month... mostly an outdoor activity.

So 4 meetings and two outings per month... 1/3 of our activities are aimed primarily at outdoors. We have the most successful Troop in the council.

Most meetings (mid-spring through middle of fall) are outdoors with a game or activity (pioneering/fire building/nature walk, etc) 

In summer, we throw a lot of impromptu stuff in as well... swim parties, bike rides, orienteering, fishing, hikes, boating, the odd service project, etc.  

Seven or eight Scouts show up and we go have fun.  Never the same group twice.  (Ice cream is mandatory ;P)

6 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

If worrying about there's alcohol and smoking, then our troop would cease to exist- we meet at an American Legion Post, where there is a bar open for members while we are meting in the room next door. Been that way for over 70 years. We're OK for meeting weekly under such conditions, but not to use a range once a year?

I could absolutely see having a checklist and stipulations on what is required when using a sportsmens club versus a commercial range- namely, a fully certified instructor must be present. I've never experienced a sportsmens club that would be OK with a member drinking at the bar and then staggering their way out on to the range. Can't speak for anyone else, but at my club, we absolutely will talk with other members if we see them doing anything that is a safety violation, and we absolutely have politely made some folks former members for not following rules. Apply similar requirements for what we do with any facility that would fall under "short term camping" provisions now and the council can have an "approved" list of facilities- it isn't that difficult, and not that time consuming.  

BSA has a Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, Climb On Safely, Cave Safely, Trek Safely, even Drive Safely.... where is the cert for Range Safety for BSA leaders??? Same concepts as the others for the training... you assume responsibility, here are the rules and limitations, and make sure you have an RSO and NRA Certified Instructor (2 subject matter experts)!!  They could (should even) write in instructor : student ratio requirements... I think it is 1 : 5 for NRA, but Range and Target Activities, formerly know as Shooting Sports, is not my forte.

14 hours ago, qwazse said:

You are not thinking like many young teens who now have jobs, the earnings from which are expected to pay for activities. If their patrols can’t go shooting at their trained ASM/RSO’s club every month, they can spend their dimes joining the club as junior members from what they save on Scouting America registration fees.

You might say only a small number of COs and families will let their scouts be so reactionary … just like families who react to the removal of dodge ball, or the removal of unisex program, …

It becomes a decline by a thousand cuts.

If a troop wants to maintain routine range time it could result in merely exchanging hazards For us the nearest commercial range is at least a half hour drive away (and I think this applies to most scouts) … twice as far as the nearest game lands or gun club, we double the risk of traffic accidents.

Yes, and just at a crossover recently, the new Dad invited us to their rod and gun club.  They do have insurance.  He joked, if we are limited to "commercial" facilities, they'd be happy to charge us $1 for use of the ranges.