InquisitiveScouter

Even at a full sprint, joining to Eagle takes 19 months:

30 days for Tenderfoot physical fitness requirements (all Scout and Tenderfoot requirements could be done in this period by a precocious Scout)

Four weeks for Second Class physical fitness requirements (cumulative now 2 months)

Four weeks for First Class physical fitness requirements (cumulative 3 months)

Four Months as First Class to Star (cumulative 7 months)

Six Months as Star to Life (cumulative 13 months)

Six months as Life to Eagle (cumulative 19 months)

I have never seen it done that quickly.  The fastest I have seen it happen is a young lady who, already having her Venturing Summit Award, Congressional Award Gold Medal, and GS Silver Award, joined a Troop at 16 years old (under the waiver), and completed in 20 months to become one of the Inaugural Class of female Eagle Scouts.  And, other than school work, that is all she focused on.  (She dropped out of GS, and said the Gold Award was not worth it for her...)

Show Mom the math...

38 minutes ago, Tron said:

force the PLC to accept the fact that they have to do land navigation

Hmmm... different philosophies, I guess.  If they do not schedule any events where map and compass or orienteering events, or aquatics, or whatever, are available for those who need them, as a Scoutmaster, I advise them of the need to provide those opportunities for advancement, but do not "force"  anything on the PLC, other than decisions which affect health and safety.

And, I am curious... what exactly do you mean by "force."  Do you dictate their schedule?  

1 hour ago, Tron said:

So when you read the GTA, the Troop Leader Guides, etc ... the reality of the program is that getting something checked off for rank requirement requires only ever having done it successfully once. Now what separates a rank mill from a real scout troop is what happens afterwards. A good scout troop has a regular calendar and rotates through scoutcraft regularly which provides two things: First it allows scouts to revisit that skill and practice. Secondly it provides an enablement opportunity for those senior scouts to teach and thus master their scoutcraft through having to know the task well enough to explain it and  teach it. 

Agree... but making this a reality is quite difficult, as it is the Scouts (PLC) who choose their activities and calendar. 

If it was up to me (I would be an excellent SPL 😜 ) then the schedule and activities would be radically different.

But, as I understand the program, I can only suggest and mentor, and step in (veto) only in cases of health and safety.

My biggest hurdle on this is dealing with Scouts who use their devices primarily for entertainment.  Gaming, watching youtube, tiktok, snapchat, whatever the flavor of the day is.

When they are doing this, I explain they are disengaging from the activities we are doing, disengaging from their fellow Scouts, and disengaging from their responsibilities in camp. We do ask Scouts to schedule at least an hour per day of "free time" where they can do what they wish, but encourage them to enjoy the outdoors rather than escaping into their devices.

If a Scout uses his device inappropriately, like gaming/texting during an activity or lesson, or having their phone on after lights out, then they get one warning.  Upon the second infraction, we hold their device for safekeeping until the end of the camping trip.  Parents know, understand, and support this policy.

59 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

Just a quick glance through the 2025 edition of the NCAP Standards book and I found this, which does not specify whether it be an adult or youth member of a trek.

I also found the following link which shows the 2025 requirements for each HA base:  BSA - Wilderness First Aid (BSA-WFA) • EMS Squared  -  Philmont is any 2 adult or youth; Sea Base is at least one adult; Northern Tier is at least one adult; Summit states 1 person adult or youth.

PA-218.pdf 538.1 kB · 0 downloads

Three adults on "Treks" at Philmont:  https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/trekrequirements/

"Each Philmont expedition or group must have at least three BSA registered adult advisers for Scout groups. Three advisers must be at least 21 years of age. There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. Each crew is required to have a majority of youth participants, and the maximum number of adults (over 21) is four per crew. Participants 18 through 20 years of age may be counted as youth or adult crew members. "

But only two on "Crews":  https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/trekrequirements/crewrequirements/

Would someone please elaborate on the difference??

Also, same page, says WFA/CPR can bet met by youth: "Philmont requires that each crew have three participants who have completed Wilderness First Aid and three participants with CPR training. Current certification cards must be uploaded int the Gateway to verify this requirement. With three Wilderness First Aiders and three CPR trained members on the trek, the crew will be better able to handle emergencies. This requirement can be met by youth and/or adult participants."

22 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My source said no. All 4 adults must have WFA when it goes into effect.

 

Your source have any intel on when this might happen?  We have a Philmont contingent next summer, and will need to forecast, if impacted.

2 hours ago, Tron said:

This is sort of 3 now for high adventure now that high adventure requires 3 wilderness first aid and CPR qualified participants. 

Trained youth can meet the quota, no?? 

6 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Sadly the council often sees those coming from independently viable units as somehow out of their "often set in stone" plans.  Particularly true if the unit was doing their won thing much of the time due to a weak council that ignored new or established success stories.  I have been suggesting that ours may find more success over time if they develop, or redevelop, Council-level options for more adventurous activities that tend to need more adult help and that would draw independent youth from a larger pool.  And not just High Adventure Bases, but also things like the annual Desert Caravan we once had, or Ships opening a cruise to new places, or planning repetitive service events on local trails and community recreational areas.  Too often, the resource help in people are simply waiting to be asked.  The largest issue with our council seems to be umbrage by the Council Exec board and the executive when troops that have gone on their own most of the time due to poor council plans and support choose to continue that most of the time.  Then when those units decide to step in and offer to participate and even help, they are given a cold shoulder.  

We get this all the time...

Our council and district calendar is slap full of activities.  If a Patrol Leaders Council wanted to, they could simply attend all these events, and not have to plan much at all in the way of outdoor activities.

But, the PLC in our unit simply does not want to attend the events.  The are often sub-par events, with many units attending with youth who simply do not act according to the Scout Oath and Law.  Since our Troop is large, our PLC plans events that they want to do, and that, then, are well attended.  These have built a great unit identity and sense of Troop cohesion... and our PLC wants to guard that, as I understand it.

District and Council volunteers and professionals often ask me why our Troop does not attend their events.  I answer simply, "Because our PLC has chosen to do other events." 

There are a great many volunteers and professionals out there who actually think that unit adults should tell the youth where to go and what to do.

16 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I think my time in Scouting is coming to a close. Troop is fighting to survive another year. Wife is hoping it doesn't.  She says I have given so much to the program that the changes in the program are affecting me. Plus the lack of support from the council. She says I need to reclaim my time. and she may be right.

In the same boat with you, brother.  There is so much to be done to have a great (or even good) Scouting program, and so few people doing the work.  I wear so many  different hats at unit, district, and council level, that most of my day is spent doing Scout-stuff.  My wife, like yours, thinks it is too much.  Hope you find your best path.

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Sadly I have been to a camp where they gave away MBs. For example, Scouts receiving Basketry MB without doing all projects, folks receiving aquatics MBs with actually being able to do the skills. and I can go on.

And you feedback to improve the camp is ignored.

Shhhhh!! This is our dirty little secret!  Don't tell!  You shall not reveal that we have subverted the ideal of supporting a unit program in long term camp, and changed it instead into an individual's "pay your fee, get your MB" scheme to pump out Eagle Scouts and generate council revenue.  Into the doghouse with you!

18 hours ago, Tron said:

Yeah I have nearby scoop on Greenwich, they use to have a lot of money but their endowment is almost drained now. I get how when they were getting pounded with donations in the millions of dollars how national just turned a blind eye to a council with like 1 troop and 1 pack. But now? They might be on the horizon for being absorbed; they're running without a CE. 

Once upon a time, a member of Greenwich council told me that, since the endowment was so large, and (somehow) unencumbered by national, that the Board in this council could choose their CE without input from National... and did.

When threatened with charter removal, the response to National was something like, "Fine, we'll take our multi-million dollar endowment and choose another program for our youth."  So National left them alone.

Could not verify this was true, though... Can anyone out there confirm that?

1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I thought an Eagle project could not benefit Scouting?

 

That was her Gold Award Project for GSUSA, not an Eagle Scout Service Project for Scouting America.  Her ESSP was for Richfield Heritage Preserve.

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

"Eleven boys and two girls from Jackson Cub Scout Pack 204 were learning to fire arrows at Black Knight Bowbenders when a bolt of lightning struck a tree near the shooting range at 7:13 p.m., according to the Jackson Police Department."

"Ten-year-old Cub Scout Ryan Coopey had his socks and shoes knocked off by the lightning strike Wednesday, leaving him with second-degree burns on his heels."

"Mr. Montgomery (who died) was one of several volunteer instructors helping the scouts Wednesday night, according to Bob Helle, a longtime member of the Bowbenders and the group’s former president."

Sources:

https://nypost.com/2025/07/17/us-news/10-year-old-cub-scout-knocked-out-of-shoes-by-deadly-nj-lightning-strike/

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/17/nyregion/lightning-strike-jackson-nj-archery.html

No BSA Accident Insurance coverage for them, I wonder??

19 hours ago, Tron said:

What was the cub scout pack doing there? I thought the new range and target activities policies that went live last year only permitted cubs to do range activities at district and council events? 

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/430-938-24-Range-and-Target-Activities-Manual_8.30.pdf

See page 12.  Only program levels above Cub Scouts can conduct archery events outside of a "Scouting America Accredited Camp".

Need more details other than provided in the story, though...

23 hours ago, PatrickPablo said:

I recently took the Aquatics Supervision course but I'm not clear on what are the minimum age and qualifications/training for the "responder/rescuer" role (

There are no minimum age and qualifications for that role.

The Aquatics Supervision manual, which is the ultimate printed authority, says on page 6-6, under Safe Swim Defense (SSD), (emphasis added),

4. Response Personnel (Lifeguards) Every swimming activity must be closely and continuously monitored by a trained rescue team on the alert for and ready to respond during emergencies. Professionally trained lifeguards satisfy this need when provided by a regulated facility or tour operator. When lifeguards are not provided by others, the adult supervisor must assign at least two rescue personnel, with additional numbers to maintain a ratio of one rescuer to every 10 participants. The supervisor must provide instruction and rescue equipment and assign areas of responsibility as outlined in this book. The qualified supervisor, the designated response personnel, and the lookout work together as a safety team. An emergency action plan should be formulated and shared with participants as appropriate. If the other elements of Safe Swim Defense are in place, water rescues will seldom be needed. Most lifeguards at Scout summer camps, many of whom work several seasons, are never called upon to make a rescue. The same should be true at unit swims. Even so, there is always some chance of an unexpected medical emergency or other situation that could incapacitate a person in the water. Fortunately, rescues in a controlled situation are relatively safe, simple, and easy to learn. Danger could arise if a would-be rescuer is a poor swimmer ill-trained and ill-equipped for the situation, or if water conditions are hazardous. However, hazardous water situations would violate the third tenet of Safe Swim Defense and should not be present at a unit swim site. Chapter 10 will alert the reader to skills that should be mastered to ensure victim and rescuer safety, the equipment that supports those skills, and situations that should be included in emergency action plans. Older youth and adults who have completed the Lifesaving merit badge, Swimming and Water Rescue, are candidates for response personnel, as are those who have American Red Cross or other professional lifeguard training. Other good swimmers may be used to maintain the required 1 to 10 ratio if coached in basic surveillance and rescue techniques. The line-and-tender procedure for the First Class rank is one such technique. Adult leaders, including the qualified supervisor, may serve as response personnel for an entire activity that is not too long. Short breaks in concentration are provided during buddy checks. If youth are used, they will generally need to be rotated so that they too may enjoy the activity. The emergency action plan may specify that response personnel with more training will handle special situations, such as a spinal injury, whereas all response personnel may respond when a reaching rescue is indicated. Response personnel will generally work as buddy pairs, with each buddy monitoring the other. Note that council maintained and operated swimming areas, such as those at council camps, are subject to state codes and typically must have professionally trained lifeguards on duty. Regulatory requirements for the number, training, and supervision of those lifeguards supercede Safe Swim Defense protocols for response personnel for unit swims. That is, council camps are “regulated facilities” that must use professionally trained lifeguards in numbers mandated by statutes. The 1:10 ratio for lay rescue personnel does not apply. 

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/Aquatics/pdf/Aquatics_34346.pdf

A lot to unpack there... basically, read Chapter 10, and if your rescue team has those skills, you are good to go.

Minimum number of people to conduct a unit swim?  Four...

1.  Lookout

2 & 3. Rescue team

4.  A "swimmer"

Any two of those four could be the 21+ year olds, one for SSD Supervision, and the second to cover your two-deep requirement for the event.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some "qualifications" available to you, as an adult leader to select from, to meet this point of SSD: (not all inclusive, and listed in decreasing order of "trust" (my opinion only)...)

A.  Go to National Camping School and become a Scouting America Aquatics Instructor, and train your troop.

B.  Become a certified lifeguard through an accredited agency (American Red Cross, American Lifeguard Association, United States Lifesaving Association, etc, etc, etc)

C.  Become a Scouting America Swim and Water Rescue Instructor, and train your troop...

D.  Become Scouting America Swim and Water Rescue certified

E.  Lifesaving Merit Badge

F.  Swimming Merit Badge

G.  Swim and rescue skills up to First Class.

As the adult leader assuming responsibility for the safe conduct of the swim, you determine whether you meet the SSD point of :

All swimming and activity afloat must be supervised by mature and conscientious adults, age 21 or older, who

- understand and knowingly accept responsibility for the well-being and safety of youth members in their care, 

- are experienced in the particular activity,

- are confident in their ability to respond appropriately in an emergency, and

- are trained and committed to the nine points of Scouting America’s Safety Afloat and/ or the eight points of Safe Swim Defense.

Good luck!

50 minutes ago, Tron said:

You know that all of those homes and businesses built in the floodplains are going to get rebuilt. This has been happening for over a century and it just keeps repeating. Texas is like the only state that allows new and rebuild construction in floodplains. 

Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.... the definition of insanity 😜

52 minutes ago, PatrickPablo said:

Hi everyone, 

I am a parent of two. My older son joined Rip Van Winkle Council Troop 16 last year. I've been an adult leader on several campouts since he joined (most recently at a week of summer camp), and am also a fully trained Troop Committee member. [Definitely not bragging or anything, just trying to give the kind of introduction information that might be appropriate here.]

Greetings!  Welcome to the forum.  Hope you get, give, and share some good advice and experience here.

30 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I have been fighting this battle for some time. The troop is now down to 4 active Scouts. Council will not help with recruiting, I have asked them for help, and was told no. Then they  wonder why we have not participated in council sales or do FOS.. Trying to plan next year, and 2 prime camping months are taken up by an activity 3 of the members are in. Plus there will be last minute stuff popping up causing us to postpone, or even cancel trips. This year we were lucky, but last year we had to cancel multiple trips. And finally we have are starting to have a challenge with having enough adults. All of the adults have some health issues, and also limits what we can do. And I was just informed today that my second adult for summer camp may not be able to make it. We leave Sunday. I will be having a more detailed conversation tonite.

I'm tired and burnt out with the troop.

And I am also very frustrated with the council. I used to be active on the district and council level. When they needed something, and I was able to help, I did. Heck they told me I was in charge of an event with 60 days get it up and running. And now they cannot help us with recruiting. And before you say we are responsible, we have done everything we could. In fact I have recruited more girls for the only girls troop. But worse is that they are upping the council fees. In addition to the national charter and registration fees, council is now charging each Scout an additional $50 council fee, and each unit $112.50 PER SCOUT council "fair share" fee. We have families that need help, and they keep adding fees. 

I think once the charter is finished, so is the troop.

 

 

Thanks for your volunteer service.

At some point, the uphill battle becomes too steep to continue.  

If you have no other options, discreetly find a good home you can recommend to your Scouts, and get them transitioned there ASAP.

Recommend you not wait until the Troop does not recharter, then do the transfers... that could cause a break in continuity that may cause some to drop all together.

Do you already have a solid unit they could go to?

SMH

In the military we would say, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy." (attributed to Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke, Prussian)

The Scouting version of that is, "No plan survives contact with reality."

And Churchill said, ".... the best generals are those who arrive at the results of planning without being tied to plans."

The Scouting version would be, "The best Patrol Leaders are those who accomplish the goal without being tied to the plan."

Many, many more quotes along these lines show the wisdom of planning, and then not being adamant that you stick to the plan you have made, come hell or high water...

Just now, jcousino said:

It goes along with the cheapest way. All courses and training have been dumbed down, and the number of students has increased. It's just box-checking. OK, you attended. 

No, it isn't.  Did you read my original post?  I train to standard, and keep a record of their training.

I would posit your statement should be presented the other way around, "... do not fall for certification instead of training..."

Esse quam videre.

9 minutes ago, jcousino said:

Please never fall for training instead of certification on anything.

I am a bit confused by your response.

So, do you have Scouts who are working on First Aid Merit Badge pursue a "certification", to meet their requirement which says,

17 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

As long as they realize that there are situations where BSA does require a copy of the certification card, such as meeting health officer requirements for day camps, etc. and that just having NO6 in their training on my.scouting will not suffice; I would rather they know what to do in case of an emergency than having a piece of paper in their wallet.

BTW, I have had conversations with Camp Directors on this wrt NCAP.  And wherever the standard is vague or conflicting, they have interpreted it in their favor (training versus certification).  I know a Camp Director who also asked for clarification from National on this issue... and got no response.  So he used "training" versus "certification" to meet NCAP requirements.

3 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

As long as they realize that there are situations where BSA does require a copy of the certification card, such as meeting health officer requirements for day camps, etc. and that just having NO6 in their training on my.scouting will not suffice; I would rather they know what to do in case of an emergency than having a piece of paper in their wallet.

Agree!

Wanted the forum's thoughts on this topic.

Here's the background...

I am a CPR/AED (and First Aid and Wilderness First Aid) Instructor.  I train about 50 people each year in BSA, and issue certificates from the organization certifying me as an instructor.

The training books, materials, and certificates for the courses have a cost, most of which goes to the certifying organization.

When I organize and offer a course, I explain the fees associated, and I do not tack on extra fees to generate an income.  Basically, I offer the training for free, but ask for a cost to cover the items above.  This helps keeps costs extremely low for our volunteer leaders.  And because of this practice, I have many more requests for courses than I can offer.  I have to turn lots of folks away, because I do not run my training as a business as many others do.  (The market rate locally for an in-person, hands-on, CPR/AED class is about $100.)

I keep records of all courses, and the syllabus I teach for each specific class.

After issuing certificates, I also submit a training report to council for N06, CPR/AED.

Due to economic pressures in some units, I have been asked (I am purposely vague there) to provide training, but not to issue "official" certificates (due to cost), and then further asked to submit training attendance to council for N06 CPR/AED for tracking in adult leader records, so they are covered with respect to the Guide to Safe Scouting which requires "training" instead of "certification".)

So, we have a distinction between the two statuses, certification versus training, with one difference: one has a paid certificate from the issuing agency, and the other does not.

I have been thinking a lot about this and researching BSA "requirements" (for adults and youth), and state and federal laws and have the following observations/thoughts.

1.  If a person attempts CPR and AED use without training or certification, they are covered by Good Samaritan acts and Federal legislation.

2. We would desire that everyone be "trained" in CPR and AED use.

3.  Some businesses and occupations require CPR "certification."

4.  Guide to Advancement 2025 does not require a certification, per se, for rank requirements or merit badges, but specifies *Note to the Counselor: CPR instruction, wherever it is required, must be taught by people currently trained as CPR instructors by a nationally certified provider such as the American Red Cross, the Emergency Care and Safety Institute, or the American Heart Association."

5.  BSA has no specific prescription (that I can find) for awarding N06 training code.  When entered, N06 has an expiration of 2 years, in line with all certifying agencies...

Currently, I have no issue with training and testing folks according to an approved syllabus, and awarding CPR/AED N06 without them paying for a certificate. 

What are your thoughts?

I was going to punt to BSA National Health and Safety Committee, but, as @qwazse says... 😜