InquisitiveScouter

SMH

In the military we would say, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy." (attributed to Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke, Prussian)

The Scouting version of that is, "No plan survives contact with reality."

And Churchill said, ".... the best generals are those who arrive at the results of planning without being tied to plans."

The Scouting version would be, "The best Patrol Leaders are those who accomplish the goal without being tied to the plan."

Many, many more quotes along these lines show the wisdom of planning, and then not being adamant that you stick to the plan you have made, come hell or high water...

Just now, jcousino said:

It goes along with the cheapest way. All courses and training have been dumbed down, and the number of students has increased. It's just box-checking. OK, you attended. 

No, it isn't.  Did you read my original post?  I train to standard, and keep a record of their training.

I would posit your statement should be presented the other way around, "... do not fall for certification instead of training..."

Esse quam videre.

9 minutes ago, jcousino said:

Please never fall for training instead of certification on anything.

I am a bit confused by your response.

So, do you have Scouts who are working on First Aid Merit Badge pursue a "certification", to meet their requirement which says,

17 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

As long as they realize that there are situations where BSA does require a copy of the certification card, such as meeting health officer requirements for day camps, etc. and that just having NO6 in their training on my.scouting will not suffice; I would rather they know what to do in case of an emergency than having a piece of paper in their wallet.

BTW, I have had conversations with Camp Directors on this wrt NCAP.  And wherever the standard is vague or conflicting, they have interpreted it in their favor (training versus certification).  I know a Camp Director who also asked for clarification from National on this issue... and got no response.  So he used "training" versus "certification" to meet NCAP requirements.

3 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

As long as they realize that there are situations where BSA does require a copy of the certification card, such as meeting health officer requirements for day camps, etc. and that just having NO6 in their training on my.scouting will not suffice; I would rather they know what to do in case of an emergency than having a piece of paper in their wallet.

Agree!

Wanted the forum's thoughts on this topic.

Here's the background...

I am a CPR/AED (and First Aid and Wilderness First Aid) Instructor.  I train about 50 people each year in BSA, and issue certificates from the organization certifying me as an instructor.

The training books, materials, and certificates for the courses have a cost, most of which goes to the certifying organization.

When I organize and offer a course, I explain the fees associated, and I do not tack on extra fees to generate an income.  Basically, I offer the training for free, but ask for a cost to cover the items above.  This helps keeps costs extremely low for our volunteer leaders.  And because of this practice, I have many more requests for courses than I can offer.  I have to turn lots of folks away, because I do not run my training as a business as many others do.  (The market rate locally for an in-person, hands-on, CPR/AED class is about $100.)

I keep records of all courses, and the syllabus I teach for each specific class.

After issuing certificates, I also submit a training report to council for N06, CPR/AED.

Due to economic pressures in some units, I have been asked (I am purposely vague there) to provide training, but not to issue "official" certificates (due to cost), and then further asked to submit training attendance to council for N06 CPR/AED for tracking in adult leader records, so they are covered with respect to the Guide to Safe Scouting which requires "training" instead of "certification".)

So, we have a distinction between the two statuses, certification versus training, with one difference: one has a paid certificate from the issuing agency, and the other does not.

I have been thinking a lot about this and researching BSA "requirements" (for adults and youth), and state and federal laws and have the following observations/thoughts.

1.  If a person attempts CPR and AED use without training or certification, they are covered by Good Samaritan acts and Federal legislation.

2. We would desire that everyone be "trained" in CPR and AED use.

3.  Some businesses and occupations require CPR "certification."

4.  Guide to Advancement 2025 does not require a certification, per se, for rank requirements or merit badges, but specifies *Note to the Counselor: CPR instruction, wherever it is required, must be taught by people currently trained as CPR instructors by a nationally certified provider such as the American Red Cross, the Emergency Care and Safety Institute, or the American Heart Association."

5.  BSA has no specific prescription (that I can find) for awarding N06 training code.  When entered, N06 has an expiration of 2 years, in line with all certifying agencies...

Currently, I have no issue with training and testing folks according to an approved syllabus, and awarding CPR/AED N06 without them paying for a certificate. 

What are your thoughts?

I was going to punt to BSA National Health and Safety Committee, but, as @qwazse says... 😜 

1 minute ago, PACAN said:

All

Oh dear...

Not too far off what was reported before NAM (16 Feb).  https://nam.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/05/Change-the-Way-We-Work-Together.pdf

Final NAM presentation https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/NAM/2025/2 - Change the Way We Work Together.pdf

Although they report the Year Over Year drop as 4%, the drop from Dec 2024, to Apr 2025 was 24.1%

On the scale of GOOD to BAD... that is well on the BAD side.

3 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Friend sent this to me

 

End of April 2025   782276

Is that total (all programs) or just Scouts, BSA?

15 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

We often lament the lack of District and/or Council personnel (including commissioners) involvement at the Unit level. 

We have an opportunity for changing this AND increasing both hands-on/in-person training.

Send the district/council personnel to unit meetings/events to conduct trainings on a regular basis. 

This will accomplish more than just those two opportunities, it will also:

-increase visibility from district/council.

-demonstrate to scouts that adults are also "advancing".

-separate the adults from scouts during the scouting event.

-allow district/council to observe the unit in action.

and more.

@DuctTape for National Commissioner!

It's been a while, and just needed saying 😜

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

...is that all there is? ...something is missing  (I hear a Peggy Lee song in my head)

Saw no listing on Safe Swim, Safety Afloat.

There should be a Head Table - Required Training for All. YPT/SYT  should go there!

First Aid training?  Basic First Aid/CPR  for Cub Scout Leaders. Beyond that Wilderness First Aid. 

We can do better than 10 min brain dumps. We learn more from our mistakes and mistakes of others - discuss incident report examples.

Is training leaders to deliver the Program about learning process or preparing for adventure?

Another $0.01,

We track all of these at the unit level with a conditionally formatted spreadsheet.

Here's just the first 14 of our 30+ registered adults.  You can tell who the Committee Members are 😜 Well, those who never go camping...

Fourth one down is mine   When you are within 30 days of expiration, you highlight YELLOW, and our Unit Training Manager gets on your case.  When you expire, you highlight RED, and then I get on your case   And if it is required for an event, you do not go as an adult until you get your stuff done.  We need capability and backup for contingencies.

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

...is that all there is? ...something is missing  (I hear a Peggy Lee song in my head)

Saw no listing on Safe Swim, Safety Afloat.

There should be a Head Table - Required Training for All. YPT/SYT  should go there!

First Aid training?  Basic First Aid/CPR  for Cub Scout Leaders. Beyond that Wilderness First Aid. 

We can do better than 10 min brain dumps. We learn more from our mistakes and mistakes of others - discuss incident report examples.

Is training leaders to deliver the Program about learning process or preparing for adventure?

Another $0.01,

I totally agree with you.

But, those trainings are program specific.

For example, G2SS requires Safe Swim Defense (SSD) only for a swimming activity.

Safety Afloat only for boating stuff.

Climb On Safely only for unit level climbing activities.

Range Activities Safety only for unit level range stuff

First Aid and CPR only for Safety Afloat, and not for SSD (a disconnect, IMO)

Wilderness First Aid is only recommended, not required.  Well, required by BSA High Adventure bases, but that is the only program that requires it

A well-informed unit leader has all the above.  But a TRAINED (for the position) leader is not required to have them, by BSA standards.

35 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

I'm baffled.

1. The SM/ASM required training appears glaring incomplete both from an official/legal and an outdoors/adventure standpoint.

2. Course duration appears so short as to question content and usefulness.

Trained for what exactly?

My $0.02,

You must also have S11 (IOLS) and SCO 800 (Hazardous Weather) to be trained. (From the red notes below.)

Now, in the G2SS, you'll find that for Cub camping, you MUST have one leader who is BALOO trained.  There is no such directive on the Scouts, BSA side for IOLS.

Hazardous Weather (and must be current!!) is required for all programs.

The classroom versions of SM specific are better than the computer modules... You cannot ask questions or get more clarifying information from your computer modules...(yet)

5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Registrar was of little help. Said they could not find my training sheets from when I taught. And they wanted proof i actually taught the course. And my copy of training records is MIA. I believe oldest transferred them to storage when he built my current computer..

@skeptic, remind me of a friend who is a longtime Scouter.  His records went MIA, and he not only taught courses at the council level, but was also PTC faculty.

Is your training status in my.scouting showing you as not trained?

44 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Well I'm "UNTRAINED" again. Even though Scoutmaster Fundamentals has "No expiration date." This despite the fact I taught the SM Specific class multiple times when I was district Training Chair.

To the folks who came up with the idea of getting rid of SMF, I will quote one of my districts long serving volunteers, "I've forgotten more about Scouting than you ever learned, and I still know more than you do."

Hey brother, there is a difference between UNTRAINED and UNTRAINABLE 😜 

With S21, Scoutmaster Fundamentals, you are "grandfathered" in.

Here's the update from BSA Training:  https://www.scouting.org/training/training-updates/

"Training Code S21 was retired following updates to the current requirements, which are now covered by S11 (Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills) and S24 (Scoutmaster Specific Online or Facilitated Training). These courses were separated to provide greater flexibility and accommodate individual schedules. We strongly encourage all Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters—including those who previously completed S21—to complete the latest training. Staying up to date ensures you are well-equipped to deliver the program as designed and effectively support the Scouts in your care."

Also, each time you teach a class, you should include your own name in the Training Attendance Report.  You get credit for those also.  If you taught the current S24, you can get a training bubba to put it in your records.  (Super Secret Squirrel Tip:  You can also get your unit level Training Manager, or a Key 3, to do this.)

@jcousino would you please cite your source, and provide a link for your claim?

G2SS makes no prohibitions on model rocketry.

The only model rocket parameters discussed anywhere that I know of are in Space Exploration MB, which says in Requirement 3,

" Build, launch, and recover a model rocket.* Make a second launch to accomplish a specific objective. (Rocket must be built to meet the safety code of the National Association of Rocketry. See the "Model Rocketry" chapter of this pamphlet.) Identify and explain the following rocket parts: NOTE: *If local laws prohibit launching model rockets, do the following activity: Make a model of a NASA rocket. Explain the functions of the parts. Give the history of the rocket.

Since the National Association of Rocketry was a sponsor of the event, I'd bet the rockets in the challenge had to meet their standards.

Ironically, the G2SS DOES PROHIBIT this activity.  See Prohibited Activities, item #22 at https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss07/#b

22. Intramural, interscholastic, or club sport competitions or activities.

IMO, silly that this prohibition is in there, but it is there nonetheless.

Nothing wrong with a group of Scouts competing, but BSA somehow says they just cannot compete AS a group of Scouts.  SMH....What has the world come to?

23 hours ago, sw1928 said:

What are the rules about a scout performing service hours with an outside group in relation to Youth Protection?   EXAMPLE : A Scout does food pantry packing with an outside group not related to scouting do they need a parent to be with them? I know the other rules pertaining to how the service hours are picked, approved, etc. I'm just asking about YPT and Barriers to Abuse guidelines.

The event is not an outing under the auspices of the BSA, and so is not under its rules.  So, as long as the parents understand this, they are responsible for their Scout.

Whenever Scouts request to have these types of service hours approved, we make sure to have that conversation with the parents. 

Think of the logical extreme here... do we have to provide YPT and Barriers to Abuse for any and every they let us know they are attending??

Here's a good resource:

https://troopleader.scouting.org/

Also, get yourself a Scout Handbook.

Then read your new Scout Handbook!!!

Then try to work through the rank requirements yourself in the back.  (at least through First Class.) No, you don't get to earn the ranks.  But, if you cannot do the skills, then how will you be able to help teach or evaluate your Scouts until they can become the instructors?

If you don't understand something, come on back here and ask 😜

@danimal508, welcome!

If you have not already done so...

Log into your my.scouting.org account.

On the upper left, select the pull down menu and choose "My Training"

On the page that pops up, select "Training Center" on the left, and then under then "Training Courses by Program" tab, select Scouts, BSA.

On the next page that pops up, select the "Scouts BSA - Scoutmaster Position Specific Training" Learning Plan.

Enjoy the 192 minutes of training modules there.

When you are done, come back for more 😜

Thanks for volunteering!

1 hour ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

You either demonstrate your commitment to the program or you take your chances.

These are the same consequences in any worthwhile endeavor... including Scouting.

There are many who are fine with just showing up to be served, go camping and "have fun".  We have to be fine with that, too... knowing (or having faith, actually) that we are having an influence, however small, on positive lifelong behaviors.

The real question I'd love to see some empirical data on is this:  Which programs have a more positive influence on the lives of our children? Sports or Scouting (or whatever flavors you choose).  If such a thing can be studied...??

26 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

As I understand yesterday?, Council SE's were emailed a self-checklist regarding resuming range operation....but hasn't NCAP camp certification already or will soon be doing this or maybe the checklist focused on third-party oversight?

That Hawaiian troop which tragically held their own range event resulted in the camp range being closed for more than a year.

Will Total Archery Challenge return to Summit next year?

I spoke with a professional buddy of mine who has been around a while ;P.  He opined, since the end of tour permits, councils have no idea what events their units are engaged in...  He also said, other than a mass email, how would they get hold of units anyway?

20 minutes ago, SSScout said:

 SA/BSA did the right thing, PAUSE and THINK...  The time for panic is later. The time for concern is now.  

Someone is shot thru the head and Total Archery Challenge  CONTINUES ? ?   

As a past CSDC Archery Range Officer, I have stories, but thankfully nothing like this.  Avoidance of accidents is the goal, but sometimes "things happen".  People don't want to walk all the way around  6foot tall stakes and yellow tape .  People want to get CLOSER to get a good photo of Sammy Scout....  I trained my staff to PAY ATTENTION, and they did.  The Cubs listened and PAID ATTENTION.  Was I strict?  You betcha.  Overly so?  You betcha....  

I remember a Jamboree where a too tall tent pole met a too short electric wire over an area where camp should never have been assigned.... 

 

Pause and think, sure... but why not specifically extend that pause to unit level activities as well?

Yes, there are units out there that conduct their own RATS events.

15 minutes ago, Navybone said:

I agree with your concern, especially if there is the mentality of zero risk.  But I applaud BSA instituting a safety stand down when someone is hurt on a range (archery or rifle/shotgun).  The stand down is a good opportunity to learn about what occurred at the Summit, and ensue that everyone has the right procedures and training in place.  The best defense against any effort to reduce range activities is demonstrating mature processes that are not afraid to be self critical and truly place safety first.  A stand down like this is a best practice among many professional organizations (police, military, etc) for a reason.

My read is that this is a stand down to assess BSA's corporate exposure.  From the limited facts available, it appears BSA (Summit) was renting out the property to a third party, versus this being an event conducted under the auspices of BSA.  Very different scenarios with very different implications...

You'll notice the letter does not direct SEs to pause unit-level RATS events.  That may be an oversight, or it may be deliberate.  We cannot know until they issue further guidance.

If it was an event conducted under the auspices of, then the stand down is warranted.  However, it should have been extended to unit-level activities if that is the case.

If it was not conducted under the auspices of, then this a "cover your butt" move to determine legal exposure, which would explain the "...camps and properties" verbiage.

I'm getting word that more guidance on this from National is imminent.

Very doubtful this safety pause will affect Summer Camp activities... they know where their bread is buttered 😜