InquisitiveScouter

41 minutes ago, Tron said:

I am starting to think that Scouting has done this to itself. Scouting is without a doubt significantly cheaper than club sports (which some estimates state are growing at as high as 43% year-over-year for membership); however, summer camp is expensive, way more expensive than a troop setting up it's own 7 day long term camp. I can simply not blame a parent for wanting their scouts to come home from any resident camp scenario with maximum merit badges and awards. Over the last 3 years, summer camp has cost me $350-$500 a head depending on the year/specific resident camp. I know for a fact that I can feed the scouts like kings and set up a 7 day camping experience at a state park for $71 a head. At the same time the Camping MB and OA eligibility require long term camping, not resident camping. 

My kids and I might stop going to summer camp after 2026; they are getting tired of the experience, and I am getting tired of the price and lack of ROI. My youngest would rather go on a family based wilderness campout, my middle kid would prefer cooking higher quality meals for himself, my oldest is sick of all the younger scouts, and I can't believe how horrible the cost to return ratio is. Summer camp 2026 is going to cost my family $1600 and a week of missed work (if we even go in 2026, my oldest is currently pitching a competing national park trip to my other two 😛 ). 

Encourage you to do this!  Our Scouts chose to do a week long Troop camp in lieu of an "corporate" Summer Camp.

Scouts planned menus and cooked all meals themselves, by patrol.  We rotated those duties so each Scout could either finish the requirements for First Class, or complete Cooking Merit Badge, if First Class was already done.

We rented a private island in a nearby river, Sunday afternoon to Saturday at noon.  Included archery (IAW BSA rules 😛 ), canoes with all gear, and a 4 hour float trip on the river (with transportation).  Adults taught Archery. Wilderness Survival, Cooking, Fishing, Motorboating, and  we even offered Environmental Science, but had no takers...  Scouts loved playing in the river every day (with life jackets on).  We went off island daily for fresh water and to renew our reusable ice packs.  Each patrol brought their food for the first few days, and went went off island for shopping trips on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons. 

Scouts had a great campfire on Friday night where each Patrol did a Song, a skit, and a cheer.  It was one of the best campfire programs I have seen in all my years.

And the average cost was $303.40 per head.  (Some patrols cost more or less, depending on the food they shopped for.)  That is less than half the cost of "corporate" Summer Camp fees in our area.

If we could find a place to camp for free, then your number checks... it would have cost us about $75 per head.

If you can do a week program for $71 per head, the go for it!!!

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Trust me I know. I am lamenting the fact that units can care less about growing the Scout instead of growing the number of Eagles.

Sadly the SM was part of the problem. When he took over the troop, many Scouts transferred out to ours.  So it was known what was going on,  but nothing to be done about it outside the COR. 

 

Both family and SM gamed the system. Family left our troop because we insured Scouts actually did what they were supposed to. They specifically went to that troop because they were "high speed low drag." SM picked summer  and winter camps known for giving away MBs. When discussing summer camp last year, the family referred to to summer camp as a place to "purchase MBs." 

It is extremely sad for the Scout. He has not really grown much over the years. He acts like a Tenderfoot still. And family is not helping as they are pushing and pushing to get Eagle. 

But I am mad that there is nothing anyone can do about the situation, i.e. just signing stuff off, except the COR replacing Scouters. And trust me the SM knew better; I trained him. 

And it is frustrating because if anyone needed Scouting, the Life Scout did.

There is one thing that you can do... Do not participate in the masquerade.  You are only responsible for what you do, so maintain your integrity, and do not sign off anything you know you shouldn't.

I have made many a Scout a little frustrated and many a parent perhaps a little angry when I refused to sign off something that I did not personally see or test.

Scout: "I tied a diagonal lashing on the camping trip last weekend!"

Me: "Excellent, let me see it you do it again."

<Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing.>

Me: "OK, let's review how to do this lashing." <demonstrates>

<Scout ties diagonal lashing.> "Ok, will you sign me off on that?"

Me: "Yes, I will sign you off next week when you show it to me again.  Practice and read your Scout Handbook if you need any more pointers."

<Next week, Scout cannot tie diagonal lashing.>  <Wash, rinse, repeat.>

At some point, I get push back from parents or even other leaders.  Then, I pull out the Scout Handbook and reference the four steps of advancement. (which every Scout must know, as a requirement for the Scout badge.)

1.  You learn.  ..."you learn and practice skills that are required for advancement..."

2.  You are tested.  "Once you feel that you have mastered a skill, a leader tests you and passes you on the requirement."

I explain that, in my world of Scouting, if a Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing from one week to the next, then he has not mastered that skill.

There are other leaders who do sign off something immediately, or upon the Scout saying he has done it, without seeing a demonstration of mastery.

I am only responsible for what I do.

23 minutes ago, Tron said:

Yeah I am not sure if that number is accurate (not your fault, nationals lack of transparency). My understanding is that a lot of councils do not have SE right now. I know that in my CST there are 5 without an SE right now, two have not had an SE since 2024. I think you assumption on salary is correct (barring some outliers). I work in "captain business land" and if I were at national I would literally just announce and start forcing the plan to merge down to 1 council per state. I was looking at what they did in Michigan and it doesn't look perfect to me but it certainly is a great start to the overhead problem. My council is cutting headcount right now, we're supposedly negotiating "shared services" asset pooling, and cost sharing with surrounding councils. I wish they would just rip the band-aid off and just tell us which new CSP to buy 😛

Wish we would go back to these:

Those would never change.  (Well, almost never...)

28 minutes ago, Tron said:

Council Service Territory maps were updated last night. It's not clear which councils merged but it looks like at least 1 council in California is merged out and 1 council in Pennsylvania or New Jersey is merged out as well. 

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/11-21-2025-Council-Service-Territories-Map-with-HQs.pdf

8 minutes ago, Tron said:

Every time I have seen a structured removal of voting ability or removal of input ability it was caused by the ruling bodies desire to remove or reduce dissent to a pending action. I've seen this in other non-profits and in local governments. This type of action always preceded a controversial policy change.  I wonder if this is the fallout of the Nassau and Norfolk councils voting to not merge and then being forced to after all of Long Island scouting went bankrupt? There are a lot of councils just digging in and refusing to be part of the team right now. Is this a mechanism to remove the dissent at the various localish levels? 

Concur with your assessment.  My extended guess... National wants to move more rapidly with consolidation of councils, and this will prepare the way...

We are potentially making much ado about nothing here.  As outlined in another post, this is a leaked draft memo that could amount to a whole lot of nothing. 

When SECWAR or POTUS comment on it, or you see a memo with a signature on it, then it will mean something.  

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

is this in preparation of all the forced mergers headed our way as some council have contested the mergers already

This, yes...  prevent the COR uprising to vote against a merger...  gotta remove the potential power struggle with those pesky volunteers, you know.

First, a leaked draft memo does not equal policy.  This memo could have been generated by some mid-level staffer with an axe to grind against Scouting America, and may never see the light of day as an official communique.

The real ignorance lies in all of the articles already attributing this as coming from the Secretary.  I promise you, no Secretary of any department drafts their own memos like this, and these draft memoranda go through numerous revisions and legal review before being issued.

Having worked at these levels with the Department of Defense (or so it was called when I was on active duty), I can easily posit this memo was the result of some staff task issued at the request of the National Guard Bureau to 'justify withdrawing support to Joint Task Force - National Scout Jamboree as a drain on resources.'  But that is an educated guess on my part.

https://www.wv.ng.mil/News/Article/3463243/a-decade-of-diligence-joint-task-force-national-scout-jamboree-kicks-off-10-yea/

In other posts, I have commented that Scouting America, over the past years, has, indeed, lost some credibility as a "meritocracy", (while maintaining the guise of one) as the quality of instruction and program at summer camps has declined, and Scouts are being given badges rather than earning them.

Let's have some tactical patience and see what develops with this story.  Hopefully, the press will show due diligence and ask the right questions to flesh out what is really going on here.  It would not surprise me at all if the burden of logistical support is withdrawn, considering the dwindling attendance at jamboree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Scout_jamboree_(Scouting_America)  Nor would it surprise me if the initial enlistment rank advancement given to Eagle Scouts is withdrawn, given the observed lower quality potential recruits we (collectively) are producing.

Giving a rank advancement upon enlistment to Eagle Scout and Gold Award recipients is an endorsement of those programs...

49 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

chartered organizations will no longer be automatic voting members of the local councils.

Removing the possibility of the grass roots uprising as a "threat" to power over the organization.

6 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

We've tried doing it, but I feel like we have too many Scouts who are there out of force.  They play around, which frustrates the Scouts who want to be there, and nothing gets done.  

We just had this discussion at a leaders meeting... Our Committee Chair is going to communicate with parents about this and try to tell them something to this effect...  "If your son does not want to go to Scouts, please do not force him.  This is detrimental to all of us, and your Scout will only wind up resenting you.  Let them choose, please."

35 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

National could remove the double standard, i.e. 2 females can take males youth out, but 2 males cannot take female youth out.

 

While I agree with your sentiment, I understand why they do this.

It is men, by far, who are statistically more likely to appear in the reports, or be convicted, of sexual abuse (notice how I phrased that...)

https://www.ussc.gov/research/quick-facts/sexual-abuse

From that page, note that ~92% of offenders were men, and ~72% of offenders had little or no prior criminal history.

It is not about you or me, it's about "us."  We men appear to be the overwhelming majority of the problem.

I do believe there is a lot more adult female to youth male abuse that goes on that is not reported, and that the societal tide is turning on reporting and convicting those women who abuse.  (See recent reports, particularly from school settings.) But the numbers will never near parity with men as perpetrators.

This is a policy made through the input of actuarials, lawyers, and public relations folks, among others.

That was quick... this just in my inbox:

Statement Regarding NPR Story on Scouting and the U.S. Military Scouting Family,   This morning NPR aired a story about a supposed leaked Pentagon memo directing the U.S. Military to sever ties with Scouting America. According to the story, the draft memo, which has not been sent to Congress, indicates that the Secretary of War plans to cease support for youth in Scouting programs on military bases in the U.S. and overseas, cut support for the National Jamboree, and eliminate increases in pay grade for Eagle Scouts who enlist in the military.   Listen to the story here or you can read the story here.   We are surprised and deeply saddened by this news. The Scouting movement has had a strong relationship with our nation’s military going back more than a century. From the tremendous support of the West Virginia National Guard at our National Jamborees to Scout troops that provide stability for the children of military families deployed around the globe, our nation’s military has walked side-by-side with Scouts for generations. An enormous percentage of those in our military academies are Scouts and Eagle Scouts. Our Scouts and leaders admire and are inspired by our military heroes. Many of our Scouts trade their Scouting uniforms for the uniforms of our nation’s armed forces.   According to the story, the draft memo purports that the Scouting organization is “no longer a meritocracy” and does not hold members to high standards. This view is clearly uninformed. Badges and ranks are not given, they are earned. Just ask any Eagle Scout. Young men and young women alike thrive in Scouting. Scouts wear an American flag on their sleeves and swear a duty to God and country.   Scouting isn’t something we do. It’s something we are.   Scouting will never turn its back on the children of our military families. Just as we always have, Scouts will continue to put duty to country above duty to self and will remain focused on serving all American families in the U.S. and abroad.   Scouting is and has always been a nonpartisan organization. For more than a century, we’ve worked with every U.S. presidential administration – Republican and Democrat – focusing on our common goal of building future leaders grounded in integrity, responsibility, and service. We will continue our efforts to work with the Pentagon to address this critical issue.   At the same time, I encourage each of you to contact your senators and congressional representatives immediately and ask for their support. You can locate contact information for your representative at these links: House and Senate.   Some of you may be discouraged by this news, but, just like the service men and women of our military, a Scout is brave. I see this as a clear call to redouble our efforts. All youth are in crisis today. They need the fun, adventure and the challenging, character-building programs of Scouting more than ever.   Support your local councils. Lift up your fellow volunteer leaders and Scouting families. Let’s prepare the next generation for lives of purpose and impact. Yours in Scouting, Roger Krone Chief Scout Executive President & CEO Scouting America

If you meet in a military facility, that might end quickly also...

https://www.npr.org/2025/11/25/nx-s1-5615164/pentagon-scouting-hegseth-cut-ties

Not sure this will gain traction, though...

7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Concur.

Now I have " The end of the Civil War was near when quite accidently..." in my brain. Thank you so very much @RememberSchiff.  😀

https://youtu.be/7YBLGOnX3hE

A show that could not be made today...

22 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

So as  Scoutbook uses a B troop for boys and G troop for girls, will F troop designate a family troop?  

 

I'd lay odds that BSA is dumb enough to do that

2 minutes ago, Tron said:

It's official. If you dig through that coed group which is now the family troop group (name changed immediately) you can find posts from Angelique Minnet (various national committees including the coed   family troop pilot. It looks like that letter went out Friday to SE's and yesterday CORs started receiving it, and in the coming days commissioners, key 3, registrars, and various other staff will receive the guides and other letters. 

Yes.

Made inquiries here.  Our Council is putting together our local imminent public release.

Just now, skeptic said:

Not yet, though it was on one of the common FB pages.  Taking after the Gov and "leaking stuff".  

 

Yeah, I saw it posted to the Scouting America page, but from a member, not an "official."

On 11/16/2025 at 2:23 PM, skeptic said:

You have an official link for that letter??

And it is just sad to read some of the drivel at this site...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/512240731294585/

6 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

My $0.02 or is it a nickel now?

We have to change it to the nickel now... pennies are no longer being minted as of last Wednesday 😜 

https://apnews.com/article/us-mint-treasury-department-penny-end-production-86139df5644ef0885a9baf98e9677380

Pet Peeve:

Adults doing jobs in the Troop that Scouts should be doing...

- Maintaining Troop website and social media... should be done by Webmaster with adult mentor

- Maintaining, inventorying, procuring Troop gear... should be Quartermaster with adult mentor

- Communicating with Lodge for arrangements and scheduling Troop's OA election... should be OA Troop Representative with adult mentor (ASM who is Troop OA Advisor)

- Maintaining info boards for rank and Troop organization, takes notes at PLCs and writing up minutes, taking attendance at meetings and outings, etc... should be Scribe with adult mentor

etc, etc, etc

I would rather these tasks not be done, than be done by adults.  Sadly, most Scouts in Positions of Responsibility in our unit just wear a patch and don't do much to help the Troop.  And yes, they get credit for wearing the patch.  Those patches are awfully heavy, you know 😜

Like a glove!

https://youtu.be/oXYpo6CprCw

14 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

We never had a BOR, other than for Eagle, in any of the three troops I was a member.  One was in IL, the others in England.  I don't even recall a SM conference.  We just completed the ranks and received the badge and card.  These seem like artificial barriers that are unnecessary.

These days, it is mostly just a formality.

Back in the day, you were tested on a few skills at a BoR.  Nowadays, that is a no go.

Now, it is more of a job performance review for the SM corps, by proxy through the Scouts' eyes.  Helps the Committee see that the program is being delivered rightly to the Scouts.

But, if the committee doesn't know the program... well...

Even Eagle Boards of Review are mostly a formality, too.

In that, I would agree they are primarily "hoops" to jump through.

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

The problem is getting these kids to actually have an imagination and want to do things.  After our last meeting, I was ready to throw in the towel.  I've been trying to coordinate extra activities for Scouts who want to Scout.  This includes things like a hike in the local state park, the orienteering day at the local council camp, participating in the council's winter merit badge camp, etc.  I was told that those distract from the planned program activities of one campout/activity a month.  Youth leaders feel that they can use those extra activities to count as their leadership time instead of attending the official activities.  Also mentioned was the pulling of adults from the official activities to man the extras.  Now, the only adults I've had for the extras are myself and another ASM who is retired and taking care of his grandson.  That's why he's in Scouting and I recruited him.  I also was told that I shouldn't be serving as the collection point of money to pay for events that require registration as a troop.  Frankly, I think I'm capable of handling finances better than the treasurer who can't give me a statement of the accounting after being asked a month ago and who is bewildered by popcorn sales.    The final straw was when the SPL announced that there would be no meeting on the 11th due to Veterans Day and a large portion of the troop cheered.  Kind of a sign that my efforts are being wasted here.  Somewhere along the way, Scouting went from an activity that kids wanted to join to something parents forced them into in order to check a block on the way to college.  

Most of us have felt this frustration.

Remember who you are dealing with... Teenagers do not have a fully developed prefrontal cortex.

That area of the brain is responsible for planning, goal setting, self control, evaluating risk, evaluating consequences, predicting outcomes, decision making, etc... all the things you and I struggled with as teens but may not remember well 😜

https://www.simplypsychology.org/prefrontal-cortex-development-age.html

For this reason, I often think our US Scouting program is poorly designed.  The things they are supposed to do for a successful program do not seem to be in line with their natural capabilities in the age groups we are dealing with.

Now, there are always exceptions... from time to time, I come across a Scout who is really "switched on."  Here are some things I perceive as common denominators to those Scouts:

1.  Two parent family with strong religious values.

2. Extremely limited TV, computer, smartphone, and social media access up until about 15.

3.  Avid readers.  (Reading stimulates the imagination.  Screens and video "imagine" everything for you, so the brain gets lazy, or just under-developed, in that department.)

4.  Very limited involvement in sports.  Often a lot of involvement in music.  (Music is a language 😜 )

5.  Parents and Scout pick a few activities to be deeply involved in, instead of trying to do everything.

6.  Parents encourage adventure and acceptance of managed risk.

7.  Youth has much more free time than peers, and is allowed to self-select activities instead of having their day intensely scheduled.  And these self-selected activities are usually reading, music, or doing something outdoors.

Your mileage may vary.

There may be some other commonalities, but I'd have to think more about it... 

 So, as a Scouter, I see my purpose is to provide opportunity to do Scouting things.  More and more of late (over the past six or seven years), fewer and fewer Scouts take advantage of the opportunities we provide.  Fewer and fewer attend meetings, outings and overnighters.  We still work to provide the opportunities, but Scouting is less and less a popular activity with youth because it demands a lot of them to make the program work as designed.

I think this is why BP said a Troop should not be more than 16 youth.  Here's the excerpt from his Aids to Scoutmastership

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ONE REASON WHY A TROOP SHOULD NOT EXCEED 32

The number in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty-two.  I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many as I could deal with-in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each.  I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two.

Men talk of having fine Troops of 60 or even 100-and their leaders tell me that their boys are equally well trained as in smaller Troops.  I express admiration (“admiration” literally translated means “surprise”), and I don’t believe them.

“Why worry about individual training?” they ask.  Because it is the only way by which you can educate.  You can instruct any number of boys, a thousand at a time if you have a loud voice and attractive methods of disciplinary means.  But that is not training-it is not education.

Education is the thing that counts in building character and In making men.

The incentive to perfect himself, when properly instilled into the individual, brings about his active effort on the line most suitable to his temperament and powers.

It is not the slightest use to preach the Scout Law or to give it out as orders to a crowd of boys: each mind requires its special exposition of them and the ambition to carry them out.

That is where the personality and ability of the Scoutmaster come in.

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