InquisitiveScouter

We are potentially making much ado about nothing here.  As outlined in another post, this is a leaked draft memo that could amount to a whole lot of nothing. 

When SECWAR or POTUS comment on it, or you see a memo with a signature on it, then it will mean something.  

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

is this in preparation of all the forced mergers headed our way as some council have contested the mergers already

This, yes...  prevent the COR uprising to vote against a merger...  gotta remove the potential power struggle with those pesky volunteers, you know.

First, a leaked draft memo does not equal policy.  This memo could have been generated by some mid-level staffer with an axe to grind against Scouting America, and may never see the light of day as an official communique.

The real ignorance lies in all of the articles already attributing this as coming from the Secretary.  I promise you, no Secretary of any department drafts their own memos like this, and these draft memoranda go through numerous revisions and legal review before being issued.

Having worked at these levels with the Department of Defense (or so it was called when I was on active duty), I can easily posit this memo was the result of some staff task issued at the request of the National Guard Bureau to 'justify withdrawing support to Joint Task Force - National Scout Jamboree as a drain on resources.'  But that is an educated guess on my part.

https://www.wv.ng.mil/News/Article/3463243/a-decade-of-diligence-joint-task-force-national-scout-jamboree-kicks-off-10-yea/

In other posts, I have commented that Scouting America, over the past years, has, indeed, lost some credibility as a "meritocracy", (while maintaining the guise of one) as the quality of instruction and program at summer camps has declined, and Scouts are being given badges rather than earning them.

Let's have some tactical patience and see what develops with this story.  Hopefully, the press will show due diligence and ask the right questions to flesh out what is really going on here.  It would not surprise me at all if the burden of logistical support is withdrawn, considering the dwindling attendance at jamboree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Scout_jamboree_(Scouting_America)  Nor would it surprise me if the initial enlistment rank advancement given to Eagle Scouts is withdrawn, given the observed lower quality potential recruits we (collectively) are producing.

Giving a rank advancement upon enlistment to Eagle Scout and Gold Award recipients is an endorsement of those programs...

49 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

chartered organizations will no longer be automatic voting members of the local councils.

Removing the possibility of the grass roots uprising as a "threat" to power over the organization.

6 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

We've tried doing it, but I feel like we have too many Scouts who are there out of force.  They play around, which frustrates the Scouts who want to be there, and nothing gets done.  

We just had this discussion at a leaders meeting... Our Committee Chair is going to communicate with parents about this and try to tell them something to this effect...  "If your son does not want to go to Scouts, please do not force him.  This is detrimental to all of us, and your Scout will only wind up resenting you.  Let them choose, please."

35 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

National could remove the double standard, i.e. 2 females can take males youth out, but 2 males cannot take female youth out.

 

While I agree with your sentiment, I understand why they do this.

It is men, by far, who are statistically more likely to appear in the reports, or be convicted, of sexual abuse (notice how I phrased that...)

https://www.ussc.gov/research/quick-facts/sexual-abuse

From that page, note that ~92% of offenders were men, and ~72% of offenders had little or no prior criminal history.

It is not about you or me, it's about "us."  We men appear to be the overwhelming majority of the problem.

I do believe there is a lot more adult female to youth male abuse that goes on that is not reported, and that the societal tide is turning on reporting and convicting those women who abuse.  (See recent reports, particularly from school settings.) But the numbers will never near parity with men as perpetrators.

This is a policy made through the input of actuarials, lawyers, and public relations folks, among others.

That was quick... this just in my inbox:

Statement Regarding NPR Story on Scouting and the U.S. Military Scouting Family,   This morning NPR aired a story about a supposed leaked Pentagon memo directing the U.S. Military to sever ties with Scouting America. According to the story, the draft memo, which has not been sent to Congress, indicates that the Secretary of War plans to cease support for youth in Scouting programs on military bases in the U.S. and overseas, cut support for the National Jamboree, and eliminate increases in pay grade for Eagle Scouts who enlist in the military.   Listen to the story here or you can read the story here.   We are surprised and deeply saddened by this news. The Scouting movement has had a strong relationship with our nation’s military going back more than a century. From the tremendous support of the West Virginia National Guard at our National Jamborees to Scout troops that provide stability for the children of military families deployed around the globe, our nation’s military has walked side-by-side with Scouts for generations. An enormous percentage of those in our military academies are Scouts and Eagle Scouts. Our Scouts and leaders admire and are inspired by our military heroes. Many of our Scouts trade their Scouting uniforms for the uniforms of our nation’s armed forces.   According to the story, the draft memo purports that the Scouting organization is “no longer a meritocracy” and does not hold members to high standards. This view is clearly uninformed. Badges and ranks are not given, they are earned. Just ask any Eagle Scout. Young men and young women alike thrive in Scouting. Scouts wear an American flag on their sleeves and swear a duty to God and country.   Scouting isn’t something we do. It’s something we are.   Scouting will never turn its back on the children of our military families. Just as we always have, Scouts will continue to put duty to country above duty to self and will remain focused on serving all American families in the U.S. and abroad.   Scouting is and has always been a nonpartisan organization. For more than a century, we’ve worked with every U.S. presidential administration – Republican and Democrat – focusing on our common goal of building future leaders grounded in integrity, responsibility, and service. We will continue our efforts to work with the Pentagon to address this critical issue.   At the same time, I encourage each of you to contact your senators and congressional representatives immediately and ask for their support. You can locate contact information for your representative at these links: House and Senate.   Some of you may be discouraged by this news, but, just like the service men and women of our military, a Scout is brave. I see this as a clear call to redouble our efforts. All youth are in crisis today. They need the fun, adventure and the challenging, character-building programs of Scouting more than ever.   Support your local councils. Lift up your fellow volunteer leaders and Scouting families. Let’s prepare the next generation for lives of purpose and impact. Yours in Scouting, Roger Krone Chief Scout Executive President & CEO Scouting America

If you meet in a military facility, that might end quickly also...

https://www.npr.org/2025/11/25/nx-s1-5615164/pentagon-scouting-hegseth-cut-ties

Not sure this will gain traction, though...

7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Concur.

Now I have " The end of the Civil War was near when quite accidently..." in my brain. Thank you so very much @RememberSchiff.  😀

https://youtu.be/7YBLGOnX3hE

A show that could not be made today...

22 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

So as  Scoutbook uses a B troop for boys and G troop for girls, will F troop designate a family troop?  

 

I'd lay odds that BSA is dumb enough to do that

2 minutes ago, Tron said:

It's official. If you dig through that coed group which is now the family troop group (name changed immediately) you can find posts from Angelique Minnet (various national committees including the coed   family troop pilot. It looks like that letter went out Friday to SE's and yesterday CORs started receiving it, and in the coming days commissioners, key 3, registrars, and various other staff will receive the guides and other letters. 

Yes.

Made inquiries here.  Our Council is putting together our local imminent public release.

Just now, skeptic said:

Not yet, though it was on one of the common FB pages.  Taking after the Gov and "leaking stuff".  

 

Yeah, I saw it posted to the Scouting America page, but from a member, not an "official."

On 11/16/2025 at 2:23 PM, skeptic said:

You have an official link for that letter??

And it is just sad to read some of the drivel at this site...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/512240731294585/

6 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

My $0.02 or is it a nickel now?

We have to change it to the nickel now... pennies are no longer being minted as of last Wednesday 😜 

https://apnews.com/article/us-mint-treasury-department-penny-end-production-86139df5644ef0885a9baf98e9677380

Pet Peeve:

Adults doing jobs in the Troop that Scouts should be doing...

- Maintaining Troop website and social media... should be done by Webmaster with adult mentor

- Maintaining, inventorying, procuring Troop gear... should be Quartermaster with adult mentor

- Communicating with Lodge for arrangements and scheduling Troop's OA election... should be OA Troop Representative with adult mentor (ASM who is Troop OA Advisor)

- Maintaining info boards for rank and Troop organization, takes notes at PLCs and writing up minutes, taking attendance at meetings and outings, etc... should be Scribe with adult mentor

etc, etc, etc

I would rather these tasks not be done, than be done by adults.  Sadly, most Scouts in Positions of Responsibility in our unit just wear a patch and don't do much to help the Troop.  And yes, they get credit for wearing the patch.  Those patches are awfully heavy, you know 😜

Like a glove!

https://youtu.be/oXYpo6CprCw

14 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

We never had a BOR, other than for Eagle, in any of the three troops I was a member.  One was in IL, the others in England.  I don't even recall a SM conference.  We just completed the ranks and received the badge and card.  These seem like artificial barriers that are unnecessary.

These days, it is mostly just a formality.

Back in the day, you were tested on a few skills at a BoR.  Nowadays, that is a no go.

Now, it is more of a job performance review for the SM corps, by proxy through the Scouts' eyes.  Helps the Committee see that the program is being delivered rightly to the Scouts.

But, if the committee doesn't know the program... well...

Even Eagle Boards of Review are mostly a formality, too.

In that, I would agree they are primarily "hoops" to jump through.

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

The problem is getting these kids to actually have an imagination and want to do things.  After our last meeting, I was ready to throw in the towel.  I've been trying to coordinate extra activities for Scouts who want to Scout.  This includes things like a hike in the local state park, the orienteering day at the local council camp, participating in the council's winter merit badge camp, etc.  I was told that those distract from the planned program activities of one campout/activity a month.  Youth leaders feel that they can use those extra activities to count as their leadership time instead of attending the official activities.  Also mentioned was the pulling of adults from the official activities to man the extras.  Now, the only adults I've had for the extras are myself and another ASM who is retired and taking care of his grandson.  That's why he's in Scouting and I recruited him.  I also was told that I shouldn't be serving as the collection point of money to pay for events that require registration as a troop.  Frankly, I think I'm capable of handling finances better than the treasurer who can't give me a statement of the accounting after being asked a month ago and who is bewildered by popcorn sales.    The final straw was when the SPL announced that there would be no meeting on the 11th due to Veterans Day and a large portion of the troop cheered.  Kind of a sign that my efforts are being wasted here.  Somewhere along the way, Scouting went from an activity that kids wanted to join to something parents forced them into in order to check a block on the way to college.  

Most of us have felt this frustration.

Remember who you are dealing with... Teenagers do not have a fully developed prefrontal cortex.

That area of the brain is responsible for planning, goal setting, self control, evaluating risk, evaluating consequences, predicting outcomes, decision making, etc... all the things you and I struggled with as teens but may not remember well 😜

https://www.simplypsychology.org/prefrontal-cortex-development-age.html

For this reason, I often think our US Scouting program is poorly designed.  The things they are supposed to do for a successful program do not seem to be in line with their natural capabilities in the age groups we are dealing with.

Now, there are always exceptions... from time to time, I come across a Scout who is really "switched on."  Here are some things I perceive as common denominators to those Scouts:

1.  Two parent family with strong religious values.

2. Extremely limited TV, computer, smartphone, and social media access up until about 15.

3.  Avid readers.  (Reading stimulates the imagination.  Screens and video "imagine" everything for you, so the brain gets lazy, or just under-developed, in that department.)

4.  Very limited involvement in sports.  Often a lot of involvement in music.  (Music is a language 😜 )

5.  Parents and Scout pick a few activities to be deeply involved in, instead of trying to do everything.

6.  Parents encourage adventure and acceptance of managed risk.

7.  Youth has much more free time than peers, and is allowed to self-select activities instead of having their day intensely scheduled.  And these self-selected activities are usually reading, music, or doing something outdoors.

Your mileage may vary.

There may be some other commonalities, but I'd have to think more about it... 

 So, as a Scouter, I see my purpose is to provide opportunity to do Scouting things.  More and more of late (over the past six or seven years), fewer and fewer Scouts take advantage of the opportunities we provide.  Fewer and fewer attend meetings, outings and overnighters.  We still work to provide the opportunities, but Scouting is less and less a popular activity with youth because it demands a lot of them to make the program work as designed.

I think this is why BP said a Troop should not be more than 16 youth.  Here's the excerpt from his Aids to Scoutmastership

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ONE REASON WHY A TROOP SHOULD NOT EXCEED 32

The number in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty-two.  I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many as I could deal with-in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each.  I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two.

Men talk of having fine Troops of 60 or even 100-and their leaders tell me that their boys are equally well trained as in smaller Troops.  I express admiration (“admiration” literally translated means “surprise”), and I don’t believe them.

“Why worry about individual training?” they ask.  Because it is the only way by which you can educate.  You can instruct any number of boys, a thousand at a time if you have a loud voice and attractive methods of disciplinary means.  But that is not training-it is not education.

Education is the thing that counts in building character and In making men.

The incentive to perfect himself, when properly instilled into the individual, brings about his active effort on the line most suitable to his temperament and powers.

It is not the slightest use to preach the Scout Law or to give it out as orders to a crowd of boys: each mind requires its special exposition of them and the ambition to carry them out.

That is where the personality and ability of the Scoutmaster come in.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guide to Advancement (G2A), Para 7.0.0.3, (Emphasis added with boldface.) "Any registered Scout, or qualified Venturer or Sea Scout, may work on the requirements for any merit badge at any time. However, before working with a counselor or attending a group or virtual merit badge opportunity, a Scout must meet with their unit leader or their delegate. This is the leader’s opportunity to give guidance on the wisdom of pursuing a selected badge, to advise the Scout on how work might be approached and what may be encountered along the way. It is also the time to provide the names and contact information for one or more approved counselors. The best outcome, however, is that a growth-oriented, positive dialog occurs that provides inspiration and direction in a Scout’s life and even leads to conversations about talents and interests, goal setting, and the concept of “challenge by choice.” The benefits can be much like those of a well-done Scoutmaster conference. It must be noted that this meeting is a required part of the merit badge process, and that it should be documented either by the unit leader’s signature (or their delegate’s) on the Application for Merit Badge (blue card) or in Scoutbook Plus or other method. Even though a leader may voice concerns about a particular Scout pursuing a particular merit badge, it is the Scout’s decision whether or not to proceed. Units must not impose rank or age requirements for merit badge work."

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

Who can initiate a MB for a Scout?  The G2A is clear that the Scout initiates the MB.  This is not the role of a unit leader.

Is the the SM, CC, ASM?  It is the SM, or any delegate.  Ideally, this would be an ASM, but the G2A does not specify who qualifies as a delegate.

What if the SM doesn't want the Scout to start the MB?  Suck it up, cupcake.  You can advise the Scout of your concerns, but you cannot prohibit them from working on the MB.

Does the SM need to say that the Scouts who come can do the MB, or can one of us give the green light?  No.  There is no "green light" to work on a merit badge... But, an interaction between a unit leader (delegate) and Scout MUST occur before the Scout meets with a counselor.  The reference for the Scout on this is the Scout Handbook (because the Scout is not responsible for the G2A.  But, you are.) Page 416 in my edition.  In step 1., the Scout has this instruction: "Talk with your Scoutmaster about your interest.  He or she will help you find a merit badge counselor..."  The first sentence cited is an imperative, a non-negotiable requirement... a command.

Hope this helps...

BTW...  we have Scouts with multiple partials who never finish work on merit badges before turning 18.  That's OK.  How many partials can a Scout have? 141, or however many merit badges there are on the list 😜 Bad practice, and not what we are after, but that is your burden as an SM to bear... working with youth who may be scatterbrained and unfocused.  Advise and mentor, but when they don't take your advice, it is not a reflection on you.

43 minutes ago, Tron said:

So sounds like Scouting America is trying to determine if their core/base membership has changed. I wonder if this is going to be aggregated to council level or something else. I would love to see this data and compare it to my geographic area.

 

The survey instructions say they have done this every 10 years. But last one was conducted in 2010.  (Fifteen years ago for those of you who are mathematically challenged 😜 )

From current NESA feed: "Scouting America is partnering with the Harris Poll to update a major outcomes study last conducted in 2010. This research will help us better understand the long-term impact of Scouting.

Who’s Involved? Randomly selected Alumni, Eagle Scouts, and Volunteers will receive email invitations to participate."

But, from BSA's own website ( https://www.scouting.org/about/research/the-scouting-edge-study/ ) , there was this, in a Scouting Edge Report  "These findings comprise results from two parallel studies fielded online in the United States by The Harris Poll on behalf of the Boy Scouts of America between November 29th and December 14th, 2023."  https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/marketing/pdf/Final-File-The-Scouting-Edge-8-5x11.pdf

That pdf report covers many of the same questions asked in this survey.  @Tron, you could perhaps compare there from the 2023 study.

So, BSA paid Harris to conduct another poll within 2 years?  Seems odd...

30 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

But my gut tells me one troop will be a better fit for all four of the Scouts.

Give them that advice.  Your experience and intuition matter. 😜 

@MikeS72, thanks for the excerpt!

"Any remaining assets obtained with funds raised in the name of Scouting must be redeployed for Scouting use in the local area. "

I would hope the unit committee and CO would do the redeploying, as their decisions would, of course, be more in line with their wishes.

Our council camp is becoming a graveyard of trailers and gear, particularly canoes...  The council does not have the time, expertise, or money to fix these assets up to make them salable.

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

Pretty sure that's theft. As others have mentioned, the CO technically is the holder of the assets of the unit. It's why a lot of troop trailers are registered by the CO, insured by the CO, etc. They're not Council assets, they belong to the CO. Folding the troop doesn't default the assets to Council. 

 

I would not call it theft, because council does ask the CO for the assets.  In my limited experience with this, though, the CO's usually do not understand the stuff is theirs to keep, just earmarked for future Scouting.

Does "predatory opportunism" better describe the practice?