InquisitiveScouter

14 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

If the program does not continuously use the skills from T-1st, then the program itself is lacking. Reqs are only one-and-done when the program is lacking. 

Agree, if they participate... we have some Scouts with sparse attendance at meetings and rare attendance on outings.  They do things for advancement purposes only, because they (and their parents) focus on advancement as the end, and not the means.

If I was the benevolent dictator, I'd not renew many of our Scouts' registrations each year, due to lack of participation... that, in order to focus more of our resources on the ones that do come and participate.

It is easy to lie, cheat, and steal your way to Eagle Scout...

I have seen many a "Paper Eagle Scout" over the years.  It has literally become akin to "pay your fee, get your degree."  If you keep your membership up, attend a few summer camps where you sit around a picnic table and listen to a 15 year old talk about a merit badge, and have your parents do your project, you, too, can be given an Eagle Scout rank patch.

When these come to me for assistance, I hold to the requirements.  Nothing more, and nothing less.  I do not sign requirements if I believe the Scout has not done them as written, and have had some parents be quite upset with me when I refuse to participate in helping them maintain the facade.  They have always found someone else with, let's say, a different standard of integrity, who will sign off stuff...   My stance is always that "I am only responsible for my own actions."

The OP also ignores elements of complexity in the organization...

When you first "sign up", you really have no idea what you are getting into.  The organizational structures and policies are discovered or revealed to you over time. (Or they change...)

It is also naive to expect anyone to agree 100% with every policy or decision that comes down the pipe.

The organization is made of people... and people often make poor decisions. 

I agree with the ideals, aims, and methods of Scouting, and I pursue those.  I find the organization is often at war within itself because of policies, actions, decisions taken which do not coherently align with the ideals, aims, and methods.

Here is a case in point... The Scout Oath presents a tenet to us to be morally straight.  For most of its history, BSA prohibited open homosexuals from being adult leaders in the organization.  They even won a challenge to this policy in the Supreme Court.  In my faith and belief, acts of homosexuality are a moral evil.  Therefore, I did not, and do not support the BSA's reversal on this policy.  I can tolerate the policy, but I do not accept it.  There is a difference...

I have learned to reconcile this, given the circumstances of BSA's other policies surrounding the issue... to wit, our CO has the latitude to prohibit adults who openly profess or practice homosexuality, and our Troop Committee / parents will not accept a leader into our fold who does so.  These parents do not wish their children to be exposed to these ideas in our Scouting environment.  Further, BSA policy specifically prohibits discussions of these matters in a Scouting setting.  So, the issue should never be brought up.  In effect, this is equivalent to a don't ask, don't tell policy.

I do encounter volunteers in BSA who openly push the issue.  I simply disengage and walk away.

See item 6. in the Scouter Code of Conduct: "I will not discuss or engage in any form of sexual conduct while engaged in Scouting activities. I will refer Scouts with questions regarding these topics to talk to their parents or spiritual advisor."

5 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

I just realized a pet peeve....people who disagree with and are obviously unhappy with the organization, yet continue to voluntarily sigh up for it.

So, you'd rather everyone drink the Kool-aid? And if they do not want to, nor fall in line with everything, then they should leave?

We have tried, but, like most of these positions, you usually wind up with a Scout doing little more than wearing a patch and doing some "low threshold" tasks during their tenure. (to use your words.)

Big picture, for each SPL tenure of office (for this unit it is every six months), the SPL must appoint a slate of PORs.  Many often continue in their role, and that is fine.  Shortly after installation into his office, the SPL organizes and leads an Introduction to Leadership Skills for Troops (ILST).  During ILST, the PORs learn about their jobs and SMART goals.  They must use that information to develop three SMART goals for their tenure, and the goals must be approved by the SPL (and the SM)

I am the adult in our unit who mentors the OE Guide.  The three goals we see are along these lines:

1.  By the end of my tenure, I will complete the Outdoor Ethics Orientation Course, S1110.

( An alternate to this is, by the end of tenure, I will assist in teaching an S110.)

2.  By the end of my tenure, I will complete the Outdoor Ethics Awareness Award.  (Or alternate, I will complete  my OE Action Award.)  

3.  By the end of my tenure, I will give two 5-minute presentations on an Outdoor Ethics topic or principle at a Troop meeting, both of which must include teaching and practicing a hands-on skill.  (How to hang a bear bag, how to deal with dishwater after a meal, how to measure 200 feet so you know where to dump dishwater, how to erase the evidence of a fire using Leave No Trace techniques, etc.)

The Scout should come up with these goals, but often, the Scout does not "know what right looks like."

I view these as all low threshold, but it seems over the last decade or so, even these have become significant challenges for Scouts.  And, we have not had an OE Guide for the last year.

We try to use the job descriptions from the Scout Handbook to create the SMART goals, as those list specific tasks of the position.  Creating and approving the goals is a chore, and we often fall short on doing the work necessary to ensure accountability for the goals, unless the Scout needs the position as credit for advancement. 

Our Scouts generally avoid PORs nowadays, unless needed for rank advancement... a sad state of affairs if you ask me, and one of the signs that our unit is on a downward trajectory. (I see this dearth of effort to drive accountability  [by SPL and adults] as a contributing factor to the downward trajectory.)

23 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

Well, we reorganized the troop this month.  The SPL created three patrols from four, spreading the various ages across each patrol.  The old patrol identities were disposed of.  Our situation did make some things a foregone conclusion.  Each patrol only had one really viable candidate for PL.  We just have too many young Scouts and too many older ones who either hit 18 by January or who are leaving the program at the end of the year (ES who proudly states that he doesn't know any knots).  They have created new identities - patrol names, flags, yells, and cheers.  Our first campout is next weekend. 

My son, an 11 y/o G.I. Joe fan, was really upset that his patrol chose Buccaneers over Vipers.  He's autistic, so he takes every disappointment rather roughly.  I pointed out to him that they can do a whole lot more with the pirate theme and that most of his patrol mates have dads in their 20s to early 40s and have no exposure to an 80's toy line, despite it having a rather large role in our house.  I think he's on board (no pun intended) with the idea.  Told them they can name their dining fly after a pirate ship, adopt pirate code names, make a sign for their campsite with a pirate theme, etc.  

I've been hyping up the idea of patrol activities - hikes, campouts, etc.  I keep trying to get our new 18 y/os to register as adults for that purpose.  The 16 y/os keep forgetting that they can also go on a campout as a provisional patrol, as long as they have someone over 21 and another adult.  At the same time, the new PLs can set up a patrol outing to work on advancement.  To get that idea moving, I set up a 5-mile hike for those needing Second Class.  We had three Scouts attend, and a new recruit.  Still trying to figure out how to get more attendance at these "side quests".  

And how about a drawing of a pirate holding a sword in one hand, and a VIPER in the other??  Now that would be cool

And another... and this will (as it has in the past) generate controversy... 

Pet peeve:  Requiring a Scout to say "Thank You" when handing a folded pocketknife.  And admonishing them when they do not.

Read your Scout Handbook.  A "Thank You" is required only when handing an axe.

Should a Scout say "Thank You"?   Yes, of course, a Scout is Courteous.

Must a Scout say it, as a matter of instruction and requirement?  No.

If you say "yes", then do you impose the same requirement for the exchange of all other items?  Pens and pencils, books, papers, spatulas, first aid kits, food items, etc, etc, etc. that have as much risk as a folded pocketknife?

41 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Alright, I have read in multiple places that while the CO owns the gear, the unit's money goes to council. Does anyone have documentation on that?

Plan with the funds we currently have is to pay for registrations and at least 50% of their summer camp for our guys . But we want to leave some money in the account for if the troop gets restarted, they have seed money. However if council is going to get the money, we will spend it all. Pay as much as possible for summer camp, have an awesome day trip,  have a blow out Christmas party, etc.

Bottom Line:  CO owns the money, too... not council.

Here is the last finance guidance I have from BSA legal on disposition of funds upon dissolution of a unit.  I have not searched for an update on this.  Please review.

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Fiscal_Policies_and_Procedures_for_BSA_Units_May_2023.pdf

Also, you find nothing of the sort in the current Charter Agreement form:

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/524-95625-Annual-Charter-Agreement.pdf

Now, that will not stop council from asking for the money.  We had a Crew fold here a few years ago...  the unit returned excess monies to CO, and then CO asked the council what to do with it.  Council said, of course, to give it to them. 

However, there was a big problem... some unit members had already paid dues and membership fees for the next charter year.  The decision to fold was made after some had already paid.  When the families found out, they, rightfully, asked for their money back, as they had paid for next year's program.  They got nothing.  Due to this incident, a few families left Scouting for good.

I fault the unit leadership, the CO, and council for the situation.  The unit committee did not uphold their end of the bargain:   "The unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations."  I would argue that the return of dues for the future year was a "unit obligation."

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

It is often expected to identify if you are part of the group.  At many COH's they even have all the Eagles gather around in some manner.  For years at our Eagle recognition gatherings they would do some type of "who is the earliest Eagle here" type of thing.  But, bragadocio is misplaced too often and can be annoying.  But, Kind is one of the points of the Law.  So, smile and go with the flow.  I have learned after decades that it is not worth the sour stomach to let it bother me.  

Avoid calling attention to your own deeds.  Allow others the opportunity to ask about them, or recognize your achievements.  We should all practice humility.

On 10/6/2025 at 12:53 PM, RememberSchiff said:

Reciting the Scout Law too fast.

IMHO, there should a slight pause after each Law to reflect and change facial expression for the next Law. Serious looks for Trustworthy and Loyal, Thrifty, Clean;  smiles for Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful;  stern for Obedient, Brave, solemn for Reverent. 

We should not be spitting back the Laws like alphabet letters at a traffic stop. 

I like this pace. Say the Laws as Scoutmaster Oborny signs them.

My $0.02,

One way we have developed to slow it down, and to make sure Scouts know it, is to do a repeat after me Scout Oath, Law, and Outdoor Code.

A little pressure is a wonderful impetus to learn something well 😜

3 hours ago, Patt_00 said:

Hi everyone, This is the first time I have posted on this forum. However, I have been following this tread since the beginning of Chapter 11 announcement and although I have never posted before. I have read every post on this thread. The last 5 years have been a horrific roller coaster. My abuse took place in the mid 1980's and I never told anyone until 5 years ago. I just wanted to thank everyone for for the support. It brings comfort knowing I'm not alone in this. 

For those that are wondering why I did not post until now. I reported the abuse to the State Police in 2020. This lead to an indictment and arrest of my abuser. The Attorney General's office asked me not to post on social media about the case until the trial was concluded which was earlier this year. My abuser was still involved with scouting in Massachusetts and the AG's office thought it was likely he was active on this forum.

I really need to vent about last weeks Slater firm debauchery. I am one of their clients. When I received the email from the firm notifying me, it was another punch to the gut. I reached out to Johnathan Schulman, whom is one of the founding partners of the firm. I had a lot of questions for him and while he said the firm was taking full responsibility, he refused to answer my questions. One of the questions I asked was, Looking Back, Do You Think You Should Have Informed Your Clients That The Trust Was Not Processing Any Of Out Claims. He would not give me an answer. He treated me like an opposing attorney not a client. 

I read through the Bar's Professional Code of Conduct and attorneys have an ethical obligation to communicate to their clients any critical/important information about their case, which also includes any changes to timelines for their claim/case. For 14 months, the Slater Firm intentionally withheld this from myself and the other 14,000+ of their clients. Its obvious Slater Firm  violated the code of conduct. I am currently drafting a complaint to both the New York and California Bar. I am also discharging the Slater  Firm.  I do have an attorney representing me on the matter of discharging the Slater Firm.. 

.Moving forward, I'm not sure how the Slater Firm issue is going to delay processing and payment of our claims. Unfortunately this effects everyone. For those who have received awards from the Trust, a second payment distribution will likely be delayed. I doubt there will be a second distribution until the Trust has finished processing all the Slater Firms claims. And I don't know how long it will take the independent "neutrals" the Slater Firm hired to vet the claims, I asked but did not get an answer from Jonathan Schulman.

 

 

Welcome @Patt_00 to the forum!  Glad you are finally able to air your voice  

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Watching the former CDC director testify before Congress and got me wondering...

Answer: Just one, tetanus.

 

Source:

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/ahmr/medical-formfaqs/

Yes, at the "national" level... but this very much depends on your state and county health departments, also.

For example, from the Ten Mile River Scout Reservation Leaders Guide, the edicts of the People's Republic of New York are

"New York State law requires all Scouts who attend camp for more than one week to complete an additional form about meningitis. See “Meningitis ” on page 18 for more information. In March 2024, the Sullivan County Department of Public Health issued Local Board of Health Public Health Order No. 1 – 2024 Children’s Camps. It requires that all campers at any summer camp in the county have certain vaccinations, and this will apply to every Scout who will be camping at TMR this summer. A copy of the order is included with the TMR version of the AHMR. Quoting from the order: All campers must have documentation of these vaccinations administered before the beginning of camp: • Diphtheria and Tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine and Pertussis vaccine (Dtap/DTP/Tdap) • Hepatitis B vaccine or proof of immunity • Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccine (MMR) or proof of immunity (positive titer) • Polio vaccine (IPV/OPV) • Varicella (Chickenpox) vaccine or proof of immunity • Meningococcal conjugate vaccine (MenACWY)- Measles ” on page 19 Sullivan County requires documentation for all campers, adult leaders and staff of proof of immunity to measles. Thus, it’s important that the date of measles vaccination be included on the AHMR."

https://tenmileriver.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/TMR-Guide-25.pdf

YYMV in your state...

Haven't seen anything "published" is the usual manner... or in Annual Report to Congress since 2023: https://www.scouting.org/about/annual-report/

Or NAM presentations, 2024: https://nam.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/05/Change-the-Way-We-Work-Together.pdf

Transparency has never been a strength of BSA (my opinion).  Which is often a signal that bad news pervades and must be hidden from view. (again, opinion).

1 hour ago, ramanous said:

In this homework assignment there are no wrong answers, only insightful responses.  

OK, I'll humor you, but I'll give you rough numbers...

Dec 2018, over 8000 Scouts (all programs in our council), over 2000 in our district, with almost 40 troops

Dec 2024, less than 5000 Scouts, 1.2K in district, with fewer than 30 Troops.  Troops sizes are mixed... some large (35+), some mid-sized (15-35), some small (<15)

Since 2018, we have lost a fourth of our Troops, and that is factoring in the addition of 8 girl troops. (One girl Troop folded last year)

Five districts in council, most without a DE for some time.

Our district very active, with an event for Cubs and Scouts at district level almost every month, except during Summer Camp season.  Including council events, there is something for Troops and Packs literally every month of the year. (For Troops, I think this is too much)

Yes, other Troops nearby. 

I work with our district training crew, and our district is 17.5% points higher in adult training than the next lowest district, 22.5% higher than the lowest district.

Our Troop member numbers have remained steady-ish in this time, but only due to gaining the losses from the Troops folding in recent years.  We have fewer new Scouts joining over the past three years...

(Our Troop met Gold JTE for every year since 2017, with two years of what I like to call "solid gold", that is, gold level in every category.)  We are known for having a quality program.

Now, your turn for homework... let's see your numbers for comparison.

27 minutes ago, ramanous said:

This is a fascinating discussion, reading the various points of view around the same subject matter. Of course, I know how its supposed to be (mostly), I've read all the guidance, policies, bylaws, etc. And then reality sets-in! 

What I've seen is similar, but its the veteran scouters intimidating the 20 something DEs. We lost one a few years ago I suspect, in part, due to this. I know these veteran scouters are doing this, because I've had several try to intimidate me. 

@InquisitiveScouter - I'd still like to know particulars about your district. The number of troops, scouts, events, etc. Is membership improving or declining? Do you have a handful of large troops and small troops in your district? 

 

 

Sorry, don't have time to do this kind of homework for you...

I'll tell you why we "isolate" ourselves...

We have the strongest Troop in our District, and I daresay our Council. 

First and foremost, this is because of a small dedicated cadre of adults (about eight) who understand the Patrol Method, and mentor our Scouts to keep that as a focal point in our activities.

We have 35 total adults registered, with 44 youth currently on the books. 

Of the 35 adults, again, eight pull most of the weight, about 17 dabble here and there to help out, and 10 contribute nothing, if not less

Of the 44 Scouts, about 10 are extremely active in the program, about 26 dabble, and eight contribute nothing and will probably drop out.

Side note:  notice how those numbers follow the 20-60-20 rule?  I learned that some time ago in a military leadership course... in any group, 20% of your people are Sierra Hotel (focus your time on them), 60% are average performers (encourage them and some will respond, but not all), and 20% are low performers (Help them when they ask..  Do not expend effort chasing them or trying to bring them into the 60%.  If they do, great... if they don't, let them go.)

Here are a few tenets of our Troop adult culture:

1.  Adults will be fully trained in their positions. No exceptions.  We make adults aware of the training burden and commitment expected before they sign on.

2.  Don't get your training done, and you are dropped from the roster. 

3.  It is not about your kid.  You are here for all.  The best compliment you can get is, at the end of a camping trip, when your Scout hops in your car, another Scout looks at him and says "I didn't know that was your Dad (or Mom).  During our events, try to act in such a way as to receive that compliment.

4.  Our Troop pays for adults' food and camping fees for trips. (or at least a portion thereof, when attendance is over the adult leadership requirements)  Adults pay for their own activity fees (like whitewater rafting, ziplining, etc.), and their fair share of gas and tolls for the trip.  We let our adults know we appreciate their time and sacrifice.

5.  We pay for all required training.  For example, when you sign up to be an ASM, you must attend IOLS.  You pay out of pocket at first, and when you are done, the Troop reimburses you the cost.

6.  We pay half for advanced courses. For example, we have our own unit climbing program, so we sent a leader to National Camp School, Climbing section, to get certified, so we can run our own unit program. (Our program is cheaper than local council or commercial costs!!)  We sent a leader to NCS for Outdoor Skills (formerly know as Scoutcraft).  We sent a leader to do Shooting Sports (now known as Range and Target Activities?)  Next year, we hope to send one to Aquatics.

7.  A good number of our adults are trained in CPR/AED, Wilderness First Aid, Swimming and Water Rescue, Paddlecraft Safety, and YES!! Chainsaw Safety.  We push leaders to get these kinds of courses as a "Force Multiplier".  With these skills, we greatly enhance our capability to provide youth the program they want, when they want it.

8.  We police each other.  Youth Protection is fiercely enforced.  Other breaches of GTSS and Scouter Code of Conduct are handled discretely, but firmly.  Most infractions are due to ignorance.  Ignorance can be cured...

9.  Overall, adults need to know that, as @Eagle94-A1 pointed out above, unit leaders "...are the heart and soul of the program. Without volunteers, you cannot have the program..."  When you treat them that way, they respond with dedication.

There are more facets here, but I'll stop.

We "isolate" ourselves because the District and Council live a different set of tenets.  And the program they run is, well, below our skill set, to put it politely.

In 2020, during the pandemic, when all Scouting shut down, our youth still wanted to do a Summer Camp.  So, we made our own, and they had a blast.  (And EVERYTHING was within the parameters of our State Governor's and CDC orders/guidelines.)  The Scouts absolutely loved it!  The only thing we did not have then was shooting sports.

Since 2020, our PLC has elected to go to various council camps for Summer Camp.  The ones who went in 2020 (who are now the senior Scouts) have been disappointed over the years in what they have experienced in the council-run camps.  So, they asked to have another Troop-only Summer Camp this year, and it was a huge success. 

(By the way, in 2020, we ran the camp with 30 youth, 11 adults, at a cost of $244.01 per head; in 2025, 22 youth and 11 adults, at a cost of  $303.40 per head.) [exactly in line with inflation...]

We have found that we can run a better quality program, at a cheaper cost, and with much less hassle, than going to district or council events.  This includes day, weekend, and weeklong programs...

Even at a full sprint, joining to Eagle takes 19 months:

30 days for Tenderfoot physical fitness requirements (all Scout and Tenderfoot requirements could be done in this period by a precocious Scout)

Four weeks for Second Class physical fitness requirements (cumulative now 2 months)

Four weeks for First Class physical fitness requirements (cumulative 3 months)

Four Months as First Class to Star (cumulative 7 months)

Six Months as Star to Life (cumulative 13 months)

Six months as Life to Eagle (cumulative 19 months)

I have never seen it done that quickly.  The fastest I have seen it happen is a young lady who, already having her Venturing Summit Award, Congressional Award Gold Medal, and GS Silver Award, joined a Troop at 16 years old (under the waiver), and completed in 20 months to become one of the Inaugural Class of female Eagle Scouts.  And, other than school work, that is all she focused on.  (She dropped out of GS, and said the Gold Award was not worth it for her...)

Show Mom the math...

38 minutes ago, Tron said:

force the PLC to accept the fact that they have to do land navigation

Hmmm... different philosophies, I guess.  If they do not schedule any events where map and compass or orienteering events, or aquatics, or whatever, are available for those who need them, as a Scoutmaster, I advise them of the need to provide those opportunities for advancement, but do not "force"  anything on the PLC, other than decisions which affect health and safety.

And, I am curious... what exactly do you mean by "force."  Do you dictate their schedule?  

1 hour ago, Tron said:

So when you read the GTA, the Troop Leader Guides, etc ... the reality of the program is that getting something checked off for rank requirement requires only ever having done it successfully once. Now what separates a rank mill from a real scout troop is what happens afterwards. A good scout troop has a regular calendar and rotates through scoutcraft regularly which provides two things: First it allows scouts to revisit that skill and practice. Secondly it provides an enablement opportunity for those senior scouts to teach and thus master their scoutcraft through having to know the task well enough to explain it and  teach it. 

Agree... but making this a reality is quite difficult, as it is the Scouts (PLC) who choose their activities and calendar. 

If it was up to me (I would be an excellent SPL 😜 ) then the schedule and activities would be radically different.

But, as I understand the program, I can only suggest and mentor, and step in (veto) only in cases of health and safety.

My biggest hurdle on this is dealing with Scouts who use their devices primarily for entertainment.  Gaming, watching youtube, tiktok, snapchat, whatever the flavor of the day is.

When they are doing this, I explain they are disengaging from the activities we are doing, disengaging from their fellow Scouts, and disengaging from their responsibilities in camp. We do ask Scouts to schedule at least an hour per day of "free time" where they can do what they wish, but encourage them to enjoy the outdoors rather than escaping into their devices.

If a Scout uses his device inappropriately, like gaming/texting during an activity or lesson, or having their phone on after lights out, then they get one warning.  Upon the second infraction, we hold their device for safekeeping until the end of the camping trip.  Parents know, understand, and support this policy.

59 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

Just a quick glance through the 2025 edition of the NCAP Standards book and I found this, which does not specify whether it be an adult or youth member of a trek.

I also found the following link which shows the 2025 requirements for each HA base:  BSA - Wilderness First Aid (BSA-WFA) • EMS Squared  -  Philmont is any 2 adult or youth; Sea Base is at least one adult; Northern Tier is at least one adult; Summit states 1 person adult or youth.

PA-218.pdf 538.1 kB · 0 downloads

Three adults on "Treks" at Philmont:  https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/trekrequirements/

"Each Philmont expedition or group must have at least three BSA registered adult advisers for Scout groups. Three advisers must be at least 21 years of age. There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. Each crew is required to have a majority of youth participants, and the maximum number of adults (over 21) is four per crew. Participants 18 through 20 years of age may be counted as youth or adult crew members. "

But only two on "Crews":  https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/trekrequirements/crewrequirements/

Would someone please elaborate on the difference??

Also, same page, says WFA/CPR can bet met by youth: "Philmont requires that each crew have three participants who have completed Wilderness First Aid and three participants with CPR training. Current certification cards must be uploaded int the Gateway to verify this requirement. With three Wilderness First Aiders and three CPR trained members on the trek, the crew will be better able to handle emergencies. This requirement can be met by youth and/or adult participants."

22 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My source said no. All 4 adults must have WFA when it goes into effect.

 

Your source have any intel on when this might happen?  We have a Philmont contingent next summer, and will need to forecast, if impacted.

2 hours ago, Tron said:

This is sort of 3 now for high adventure now that high adventure requires 3 wilderness first aid and CPR qualified participants. 

Trained youth can meet the quota, no?? 

6 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Sadly the council often sees those coming from independently viable units as somehow out of their "often set in stone" plans.  Particularly true if the unit was doing their won thing much of the time due to a weak council that ignored new or established success stories.  I have been suggesting that ours may find more success over time if they develop, or redevelop, Council-level options for more adventurous activities that tend to need more adult help and that would draw independent youth from a larger pool.  And not just High Adventure Bases, but also things like the annual Desert Caravan we once had, or Ships opening a cruise to new places, or planning repetitive service events on local trails and community recreational areas.  Too often, the resource help in people are simply waiting to be asked.  The largest issue with our council seems to be umbrage by the Council Exec board and the executive when troops that have gone on their own most of the time due to poor council plans and support choose to continue that most of the time.  Then when those units decide to step in and offer to participate and even help, they are given a cold shoulder.  

We get this all the time...

Our council and district calendar is slap full of activities.  If a Patrol Leaders Council wanted to, they could simply attend all these events, and not have to plan much at all in the way of outdoor activities.

But, the PLC in our unit simply does not want to attend the events.  The are often sub-par events, with many units attending with youth who simply do not act according to the Scout Oath and Law.  Since our Troop is large, our PLC plans events that they want to do, and that, then, are well attended.  These have built a great unit identity and sense of Troop cohesion... and our PLC wants to guard that, as I understand it.

District and Council volunteers and professionals often ask me why our Troop does not attend their events.  I answer simply, "Because our PLC has chosen to do other events." 

There are a great many volunteers and professionals out there who actually think that unit adults should tell the youth where to go and what to do.