InquisitiveScouter

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

That's probably a less desirable outcome than having a mechanism whereby the Scouts can decide they want a new adult leader.  

There is a mechanism already in place...

1.  Scout tells parents they would like a new Scoutmaster, and articulates GOOD reasons for it.  Parents tell committee: committee evaluates and takes action, with advice and consent of COR.

2.  Scout tells Boards of Review they think they'd like a new Scoutmaster, and articulates GOOD reasons for it.  (BoR is made of Committee Members and parents.)  Committee evaluates and takes action, with advice and consent of COR.

Although I understand the sentiment, youth must not make the decision of who should be Scoutmaster.  (Inmates running the asylum and all  )  To implement this would mean an abdication of responsibility by COR and Troop Committee.

Unfortunately, reality is often that the Scoutmaster is simply the person with a pulse who said they'd do the job.

In 45+ years of Scouting, I've never seen a unit with a decent succession plan.  Still looking for that unicorn. (Yes, I have failed to get this accomplished in many a unit.  If I was allowed to be the benevolent dictator, things would have been different.)

2 hours ago, yknot said:

It's a great idea and good on you for trying but liability is the issue. They are in no authoritative position to confer any kind of credentialling and if an incident occurs it opens a can of worms that could only lead to enhanced liability. It's easier to just say park it and drive in. 

Your council is "supposed" to have an Enterprise Risk Management Committee that should review this...

Good Luck,

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-026.pdf

2 minutes ago, Tron said:

Yes, staff driving a units vehicle or towing a units trailer is not normal. I can't say if it is unique to Beaumont; however, I have been to many scout camps and never experienced or heard of this before. 

At the camp I grew up in (1980's, LOL!), our Camp Director got fed up with shenanigans, and went to a system where, when units arrived in the main parking lot, they loaded all their gear into a camp trailer, and Ranger or Asst Ranger drove it to their campsite, with staff members assisting on loading and unloading.

The issues then were too many cars in camp, drivers far exceeding safe speeds on camp roads with campers running everywhere, and people not getting their vehicles out expeditiously.  So, about my third year on staff, the Camp Director instituted that procedure, and it worked well for the next five years I was on that staff...

27 minutes ago, E V Augustine said:

There is another layer.  We rent a trailer from a national truck and trailer rental company.  The parties to the rental agreement are well defined and documented in the contract.  A third party using their vehicle to tow the rented trailer puts me in material breach of the contract and voids the purchased damage waiver and contents insurance.  In the event of damage or worse I would be on the hook and then have to pursue council and the inept driver.  That would be after I had to explain why I breached the contract.

Oddly enough the solution is let the units bring in and park their trailers in identified spots in the campsites.  I know they refuse to consider that.

 

Go to a different camp   Easy, peasy

30 minutes ago, E V Augustine said:

Beaumont Scout Reservation has instituted a policy where summer camp adult staff using their personal vehicles tow all troop trailers from a parking lot near the public road to the respective troop's campsite.  The towed distances are about a mile over gravel roads.  Council's stated goal is to control trailer placement at the campsites.  They move 15 to 20 trailers a week during the season.  On leaving camp at week's end the troops tow their own trailers out of camp. 

I been told that councils would or should have some form of insurance covering damage to the trailer, its contents, and personal injury occurring while in the control of camp staff in the event of negligence.  It seems an errant staffer's claim, "I did the best I could" would be a perfect defense.

I am interested in hearing if other summer camps have the same policy, not about designated parking but operation of the trailer by camp staff.

 

For us, anyone driving camp (council) vehicles must be listed on the council's insurance policy.  Units move and park their own trailers, and those vehicle operators assume liability risk on their own insurance policies per the G2SS, Transportation section:  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss11/

13.  All vehicles must be covered by automobile liability insurance with limits that meet or exceed the requirements of the state in which the vehicle is licensed. It is recommended, however, that coverage limits are at least $100,000 combined single limit. Any vehicle designed to carry ten or more passengers should have limit of $1,000,000. For insurance information refer to the Insurance section in the Guide to Safe Scouting.

14.  When towing the tow vehicle driver has the knowledge, skills, and abilities to operate the vehicle with the attached unit.

That your council is having "...adult staff using their personal vehicles tow all troop trailers..." is troubling.  Council cannot require any staff member to use their personal vehicle for camp requirements, without remuneration and ensuring adequate liability coverage.  If they make this some sort of condition for employment, or otherwise require employees (which camp staff are) to use their personal vehicles in this way, they are asking for trouble.

Good luck convincing them

25 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As for Scouts, the emphasis is on advancement, not fun, adventure, and growth.

I am an advocate for returning to no age limit on earning ranks.  (BSA instituted the age limit in 1952.)

Want a good chance to see a return of Scouting skills?  Allow adults to earn their ranks as well...

Want to have a good chance at restoring some integrity into the Merit Badge program?  Allow adults to earn them as well...

Removing age limit would also pave the way for bringing back testing for a Board of Review, thus reinforcing Scout skills.

Adults would be in a "Rover"-type patrol...  Add some additional awards for them for mentoring and teaching youth under 18...

Yes, the 31 December 2025 number of "Total Unit-Based" is 877,403.  If you included Learning for Life numbers, then the total youth served by Scouting America programs on 31 Dec 2025 was 907,950.

The 31 Dec 2024 Unit-Based number was 956,541.  So, that one year period change was a loss of 79,138 Scouts, or an 8.27% loss from the Dec 2024 numbers.

Current number reporting today (Unit-Based only) is 837,145.

There have been numerous problems with online registrations, particularly if families delayed...  If the unit charter lapsed, families were blocked from renewing registrations.  I imagine we will be seeing a cleanup of that boondoggle through March. 

So, my gut tells me the 837K number is low.  If accurate, it would mean a loss 40K Scouts since end of 2025. (Another loss of 4.56% of membership.) 

It is always best to go to the source:

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/2026-NCAP-Standards-v2.pdf

Standard number SA-001, pages 25 - 29.

Sorry, I put this in the wrong thread...

------------------------------------

The biggest unadvertised cost of Scouting is the amount of volunteer adult support it takes to make a good unit level program happen.

No "pitch" that I have ever heard (outside of our unit) tells parents that "We welcome your kids, but you have to come along, too, to help us put on the program."

When you do get them to agree to help, then explain that "help" means a variety of getting trained, learning Scout skills so that you know what 'right' looks like, being a merit badge counselor, serving on the committee to help with budget, managing adult training, onboarding, advancement, uniforming, equipment, fundraising, etc, etc, etc,   Oh, and we need drivers and adults for camping, too. 

Once they learn those needs, many are out.  They want to take their kids to programs where they can dump and run, or show up occasionally with a tray of orange slices and some juice boxes.

Once upon a time, when I served Uncle Sam, our mantra in the Air Force was "We recruit Airmen, but we retain families."  And we did PR, ads, benefits, and programs to support that.  Attract individuals, but make our environment such that, as they start a family while serving (which many do), we make it comfortable for their family to have the service member stay in.   (This mindset varies across the services, though many of the family programs and benefits are duplicated in all services.  Health care, base housing, commissary and exchange, MWR [morale, welfare, and recreation], etc. )

Scouting should be, "We recruit families, but we retain the Scout."  Get the family on board, and give them benefits for their Scouts (a program of adventure) , and the youth will stay, keeping the parents involved.

The biggest unadvertised cost of Scouting is the amount of volunteer adult support it takes to make a good unit level program happen.

No "pitch" that I have ever heard (outside of our unit) tells parents that "We welcome your kids, but you have to come along, too, to help us put on the program."

When you do get them to agree to help, then explain that "help" means a variety of getting trained, learning Scout skills so that you know what 'right' looks like, being a merit badge counselor, serving on the committee to help with budget, managing adult training, onboarding, advancement, uniforming, equipment, fundraising, etc, etc, etc,   Oh, and we need drivers and adults for camping, too. 

Once they learn those needs, many are out.  They want to take their kids to programs where they can dump and run, or show up occasionally with a tray of orange slices and some juice boxes.

Once upon a time, when I served Uncle Sam, our mantra in the Air Force was "We recruit Airmen, but we retain families."  And we did PR, ads, benefits, and programs to support that.  Attract individuals, but make our environment such that, as they start a family while serving (which many do), we make it comfortable for their family to have the service member stay in.   (This mindset varies across the services, though many of the family programs and benefits are duplicated in all services.  Health care, base housing, commissary and exchange, MWR [morale, welfare, and recreation], etc. )

Scouting should be, "We recruit families, but we retain the Scout."  Get the family on board, and give them benefits for their Scouts (a program of adventure) , and the youth will stay, keeping the parents involved.

1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Going from memory.  The membership reports could compare by date, or month, as well as tracking for the June 30th, or December 31st goals.

The 01 Jan 2026 number is real time... today's number.

The Jan 2025 number looks to be the close out number for 31 Jan 2025.

Another facet of this that may arise under the new registration system... 

We have several units who cannot be renewed because the leaders have not renewed. Yet, those units have Scouts who renewed online for 2026.

I hope the number will be small, but for a time, we are going to have Scouts with current registrations whose units have shuttered.

They'll need to find new homes.

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

Did anyone see this from Mr. Krone?

 

Membership: Recruitment and Retention

In 2025, we focused on growth by hiring an executive vice president of membership and leveraging Lilly Endowment funds to hire unit growth executives for councils. We also expanded our marketing efforts, driving a record number of visitors to BeAScout.org. I am pleased to report that by the close of 2025, we will have recruited almost 260,000 new members. But membership is more than recruiting — it is also retention. In the coming year, we will intensify our focus on retention and on delivering a more meaningful experience for all members.

 

If we recruited 260,00 new members but the overall membership through November is around 900,000 where did 260,000 that were on the rolls the end of 2024 go?

The system numbers I see tell a different story.

As promised, 01 Jan numbers, pulled moments ago...

Total Current Youth: 855,685 (Jan 2026)  a 14.22% drop from Jan 2025

Same Month Last Year: 997,529 (Jan 2025)

Last Year End:  907,949 (This is the 31 Dec 2025 number in the system.)

Dec 2024 End of Year number was: 986,520

So, Dec 2025 year end compared to Dec 2024,  is a 7.96% drop, year to year.

These numbers include Learning for Life...about 27K on the books now.

And, um, how is hiring an Executive VP of Membership (LOL) going stop the losses?  Or hiring "unit growth executives" at the council level???

Explain it to me like I was a ten year old (who might be looking to join Scouting), please

6 minutes ago, Tron said:

 

I think this is the issue. Due to so many factors we have this atmosphere of permissiveness. Sometimes it's not even permissiveness; it's just burnout. How many of us have reported something because we had valid concern or outright knew someone was willfully violating SYT/YPT or the GTSS and were ignored by people at the district or council level. 

Hey man, we only get to work when things become a Crisis.  So, until it becomes a crisis, we ain't doin' nothin'.

If you follow our philosophy, then all you have to do is Crisis Management.  And when it becomes a Crisis, if you don't want to deal with it, then dump it on someone else and find a new position elsewhere.

We just pray there are plenty of fat paychecks in the bank before the Crisis rears its ugly head, and we have to leave. (not having done the Crisis Management we have said we would do 😜 )

Now, pay us your fees and go have fun!! 

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Ebay, or Scouting memorabilia shop. Good luck finding one. It may take you 30 years to find one you can afford.

@mylo_cat and others, what would a fair price be, now that this is a collector's item?  My son is home from college, and may part with his.  He is not as "attached" to Scouting as I am.

On 12/12/2025 at 1:39 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

 

Here is what I can see...

Post here if you want your specific council numbers, or I can see by state, also.  Also, if you want to know by program, sing out...

As of today, National level, all programs including Learning for Life, total youth registered is 877, 225.  Same month last year number was 986,520.

So, overall, drop is 109,295 Scouts, or 11.08% loss, from Dec 2024 to Dec 2025  I'll check these numbers again after 31 Dec, when many current registrations expire, and again after mid-March, when the 60 day grace period expires.

We are losing about 10% in our Troop, due to those turning 18.  Hope to gain those back during crossover season.

Please remind me

And the aggregate of all councils today is 881,444.  A change of +4219 nationally... just in 5 days.  Registrars are busy at work 😜

2 hours ago, Tron said:

Last night I saw a dashboard and it had way different numbers. My understanding after asking some questions is that the numbers reported by councils and national in their annual reports Year-over-Year are not "current registered youth" and have not been "current registered youth". So we might have 877k right now but that number is not directly correlated to the membership numbers reported by national at the NAM. The number to compare against nationals year end number that they reported at the NAM is a "count of uniquely served youth in the previous calendar year" which currently stands at 1.2 million according to the dashboard I was shown last night. I am not sure if every council is doing the same thing or not; I suspect based on numbers I have seen that confused me in the past that my council is doing this as well. 

I'd be interested to know the source...

I pulled raw numbers from the Council Membership Tool on my.scouting.  See attached for today's report on 092, Atlanta Area Council, which @Jameson76 had asked for.

So, over five days, the current numbers changed to 15341, up from 15315 last Friday (+26).  You'll notice the Dec 2024 number does not change (nor should it).

The number this will be on 31 Dec, as @Eagle94-A1 points out, will be the one to watch for to give the most accurate "real time" number for comparison. Although, I suppose if a Registrar has a backlog of applications or renewals, they can tweak the Dec 2025 numbers into Jan 2026.

On 12/12/2025 at 4:55 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Dec 2024: 17277  Dec 2025: 15315   -11.36%

Another pet peeve...

Scout camps that are not designed around the Patrol Method.

What we have mostly these days is a Troop-amoeba campsite with individual Scouts doing their own individually tailored programs during the day.  And, they are being given merit badges without having done the work. (Yes, there are exceptions, but this is the general rule, in my observation...)

The hidden message is that advancement is the primary purpose of Scouting.

If the flagships of the councils, the council-run Summer Camps, are not pushing the Patrol Method, then they work at cross-purposes with units who are trying to do it that way.

1 hour ago, Tron said:

what are we doing wrong that club sports at their insane cost are growing and growing while we are retracting and retracting? 

We are not making participation mandatory for Scouts or parents.  In Scouting, there really isn't "skin in the game" unless you want to put it there.

40 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Go look at units where scouts age out, and you will find they are more scout-run with adventure. Also, adventure-driven programs typically have a high number of Eagles because the scouts are in the program a long time and earn the Eagle requirements by simply participating.

Yes, this is it.  When I had the reins of the Troop, we went camping every month, with two or three big events every summer... 50-miler backpacking trips, week-long beach adventures, 50-miler canoeing, 100+ mile cycling trips, etc.  Now that I have pulled back a lot from the Troop, there is no one who is willing to put that much effort into the program.  So, the numbers are dwindling.

Agree with you wholeheartedly... young men want adventure, not academics.

18 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Friends of mine have been hit with "Unit Fair Share" fees from their council. Unit is being assessed a per scout fee.  This is being added to the charter fee, so not directly on the Scouts, but who pays unit dues. They are complaining of no services being provided by the council to warrant that  fee, or FOS for that matter.

Here are our costs for 2026:

2026 Unit Charter Fee - $100.00

-------------------------------------

2026 National Membership Fee - Youth  $85.00

2026 Council Service Fee - Youth  $75.00

2026 Troop Dues - $35.00

2026 Sibling Discount - $17.50

2026 One-time Equipment/Joining Fee - $35.00

---------------------------------------------

2026 National Fee - Adult  $65.00

2026 Council Insurance Fee - Adult  $6.00

So, cost to remain in the Troop for 2026 if you are already registered?  $85 + $75 + $35 = $195  (Don't forget to add on National's credit card fee, if you pay through my.scouting)

Cost to transfer/crossover to the Troop in say, March 2026 (because they already registered with their Pack)= ($35/12 * 9) + $35 = $61.25  {That's Troop dues pro-rated, and the Troop equipment fee.)

We used to pay these fees for the entire Troop from our bank account around 01 Dec thru the re-charter process.  We would then assess the costs to each Scout through Scoutbook to collect.  For several of our families, we would "carry" that debt for a few months until all the Christmas / New Years bills were paid.  If a Scout's balance goes over $200, we ask for some partial payment to bring it back below $200.

Troop has 44 Scouts currently.  Eight will not renew (Seven are turning 18 years old, and one is dropping out.)  Now, here we are on 15 Dec, and 25 out of 36 eligible Scouts do not have a renewed registration.  That's 69.4% whose parents have ignored the emails from National to renew.  (...and our one Troop reminder at the beginning of the month.) National sent emails on 01 Nov and 01 Dec.

Committee has not discussed what to do in the New Year with Scouts who have not renewed registrations.

North Carolina includes:  Last Dec / This Dec / % change

070, Old North State, Greensboro:  3284 / 2794 / -14.82%

414, Daniel Boone, Asheville: 1381 / 1244 / -9.92%

415,  Mecklenburg County, Charlotte: 4380 / 4286 / -3.29%

416, Central NC, Albemarle: 2541 / 2546 / +0.20%

420: Piedmont, Gastonia: 3903 / 3702 / -5.15%

421, Occoneechee, Raleigh: 8170 / 8189 / +0.23%

424, Tuscarora, Goldsboro: 1839 / 1351 / -26.54%

425, Cape Fear, Wilmington: 2125 / 1954 / -8.05%

426, East Carolina, Kinston: 2597 / 2355 / -9.32%

427, Old Hickory, Winston-Salem:  2586 / 2468 / -4.56%

And I'll include 596, Tidewater, Virginia Beach, VA, which extends down into NC:  3934 / 3777 / -3.99%

And in the aggregate, all those councils:  36740 / 34616 / -5.78%

8 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Would like to know Year over Year for Georgia and also Atlanta Area Council

State of Georgia:  Report database not rendering... had to find a work-around... pooled all data from all Georgia Councils: 091 - 101

091 = Chattahoochee

092 = Atlanta

093 = GA-Carolina  (so, covers some in SC)

094 = N/A number not assigned

095 = Flint River

096 =Central GA

097 = N/A  number not assigned

098 = South GA

099 = Coastal GA

100 = NW GA

101 = NE GA

Dec 2024: 39395  Dec 2025:  35,587  -9.67%

Atlanta Area Council - 092:

Dec 2024: 17277  Dec 2025: 15315   -11.36%

37 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

I do wonder what the "Actual" BSA National Numbers are at this point.  Nobody really knows.  Nobody knows where to get the information.  Most people have stopped asking.  Main success is judged by funds raised.  Most of our council staff is focused on getting cash, to support all the staff that is raising cash.

In our district we have and continue to lose troops and packs, but not sure there is any effort to save any of them or figure a way to stem the tide.  We have not witnessed an actual DE or other council staff in the wild in forever.  It's not that we have a bad relationship, that would infer our units actually knew who they were, we literally have no relationship.  There are maybe 20 units in the district (though I think less) and one would assume they may come by annually to see what's up.  

In the end BSA (sorry SA) will likely not end with a bang, it will just not be around the professionals that were supposed to be the managers and provide vision will go raise money elsewhere.

16 minutes ago, yknot said:

I don't know exact national membership numbers but the latest I saw from earlier in the fall was around 915,000 and that was down about 90,000 from the same point the year before. There are some district positions that can access the membership totals on an ongoing basis and would know what the current number right now is. There used to be someone on here who would post them but I haven't seen him/her in awhile. 

Here is what I can see...

Post here if you want your specific council numbers, or I can see by state, also.  Also, if you want to know by program, sing out...

As of today, National level, all programs including Learning for Life, total youth registered is 877, 225.  Same month last year number was 986,520.

So, overall, drop is 109,295 Scouts, or 11.08% loss, from Dec 2024 to Dec 2025  I'll check these numbers again after 31 Dec, when many current registrations expire, and again after mid-March, when the 60 day grace period expires.

We are losing about 10% in our Troop, due to those turning 18.  Hope to gain those back during crossover season.

Please remind me

Just got this annual report in my inbox.

This cannot be...

Are you telling me, for the entire five boroughs of NYC, this council has only 8, 843 youth enrolled?  https://p6fb9goab.cc.rs6.net/tn.jsp

Yikes!

I double checked on the Council Dashboard in my. Scouting, and it is true...

So I ran some more numbers....  not quite perfect comparisons, but paints the picture.  Pulled data from  https://www.neilsberg.com/insights/brooklyn-ny-population-by-age/

Youth 5-19 in Queens:  375,462

Bronx:  289,810

Brooklyn: 469,947

Manhattan: 193,875

Staten Island:  91,517

Total youth 5-19 in the five:  1,420,611  (note that BSA uses 5 - 20 years old)

Market percentage = 8843 / 1,420,611 = 0.6225%

Our council has more than half that number, and we are a mostly rural geographic area.

Total youth population in combined counties in our council: 108,030

Total youth registered in our council: approx 4700 (exact number changed to protect the innocent)

Market percentage = 4700 / 108030 = 4.3506 %

So, if the analysis is close to correct, our council is doing about 7 times better in market share than Greater New York Councils?

Again... YIKES!

Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.