InquisitiveScouter

13 minutes ago, Prime00 said:

The potential for integrity and participation of everyone in open and fair dialog is a great thing. It does breed high quality leaders, which is one of the goals of our program overall. 

Yes, potential.  And you have hit on the great failing of the professional side of the organization.

Integrity, service, and excellence should be the mantra for BSA.  It isn't.  Would that it were so.

When I served, there was a strong push on core values:

The common bond that unifies us all. We live and serve with a commitment to three core values.

8 minutes ago, Prime00 said:

Already checked the Council's 990 form. Bad thing is it doesn't have contact information which in the era of cell phones and all of that is getting difficult to acquire for people. Lots of little towns in the Council makes it difficult to look up things too. Makes me almost miss the good old days of landline phones and phone books. 

I don't think many of the CORs even attend those meetings or know much about what abilities they truly have. The heads of the Charter groups have a lot of power too and can put the brakes on a lot of things going on if they choose to as well. 

Agreed.

But, realistically, you cannot expect council to give out contact info for the Board members.  You'll have to do the leg work of getting their contact info, if that is what you want.

I agree the ambiguity of today's contact-info-hiding world provides more cover to the SE...

16 minutes ago, Prime00 said:

Yeah our Council hides the contact information of all the board members and executive board and refused to disclose any meeting information about them. They used to have this information posted but now it is all a big secret that they refuse to disclose. So much for no secret organizations there I guess. Even when you do figure out some contact information, they are told not to respond at all. The Executive is basically running his own little fiefdom here and has bullied everyone around so he can maintain control. I have never seen anything like this in my life. 

Your council Executive Board Members will be listed on your council's IRS Form 990.  You can find this relatively easily.

Also, your COR (and all COR's) is a voting member of the Board.  There is real power there, but it is rarely ever used because it is so difficult to get all COR's involved.  SE's like it that way.  They can steer their Boards (including recommending their simpatico be members of the Board) to their agenda much more easily without interference from those meddling COR's.

34 minutes ago, Prime00 said:

So I am willing to put a bounty out for anyone that can provide the updated version of the document "Maintaining Standards of Membership" We can find the 1972 version without too much trouble but there has to be an updated one out there somewhere. So anyone out there that has the document and is willing to send it to me, I am willing to pay them cash.

I been seeing a lot of abuse happening in our local council from Council level employees on down and no one is willing to take a stand against what is wrong. National ignores pleas for help. The Council Executive just threatens to revoke charters and memberships left and right. After he does that, he puts the word out that no one is to speak to anyone and goes on to the next person that he wants to abuse. It never stops. 

You aren't going to get anywhere with National.  The SE technically works for your local council Board.  Each council is its own non-profit corporation.  If there are issues, it has to be handled at the local corporate level, unless there is some egregious conduct.

In the military, egregious conduct was usually the big four: funds, guns, buns, & secrets.

Funds: unless the SE is misappropriating funds, Nat'l prob not getting involved...

Guns: the BSA analogy would be the SE putting the safety of others at risk, or Nat'l not getting involved...

Buns:  sexual misconduct of some sort, or Nat'l not getting involved...

Secrets:  Exposure of sensitive membership information, or releasing info from the "inner sanctum", else Nat'l will not get involved.

Just about everything else would be at local Board level.  There are others on the forum with much more experience and insights into these matters, though.  Perhaps they'll weigh in.

Start here.

Rules_Regulations_July2023.pdf

See page 8, underlining added:

"Unit Leaders. Unit leaders must be selected and approved by the chartered organization and are subject to the approval of the local council and the Boy Scouts of America. Unit leaders must be 21 years of age or older when registering, except that assistant Cubmasters, assistant Scoutmasters, assistant den leaders, and assistant Webelos den leaders must be 18 years of age or older. Chartered organizations may remove or refuse to renew the unit registration of unit leaders when the unit committee and chartered organization representative agree that the Scouter’s service is no longer desired or required.? Unit Leaders. Unit leaders must be selected and approved by the chartered organization and are subject to the approval of the local council and the Boy Scouts of America. Unit leaders must be 21 years of age or older when registering, except that assistant Cubmasters, assistant\ Scoutmasters, assistant den leaders, and assistant Webelos den leaders must be 18 years of age or older. Chartered organizations may remove or refuse to renew the unit registration of unit leaders when the unit committee and chartered organization representative agree that the Scouter’s service is no longer desired or required."

"District and Council Scouters. District and council Scouters must be approved by the local council Scout executive. Council Scout executives may remove or refuse to renew the position registration of a district or council Scouter when the council president and council Scout executive agree that the Scouter’s service is no longer desired or required."

Your post presents a bunch of questions: Who, what, why, how?

Do not go down that road.

If there is any question on this, we point to the authority of the resource.

ESSP Workbook, "Navigating the Eagle Scout Service Project Information for Project Beneficiaries " section, which beneficiaries must acknowledge their receipt of, specifically says:

"The Scout is not responsible for any maintenance of a project once it is completed."

For any of the projects I advise that may have some lingering commitment, I mentor the Eagle candidate to have a discussion with the beneficiary specially about care after completion.

Our Committee Chair and Scoutmaster will not approve any projects requiring care after completion.  Beneficiaries understand this, and agree to take over maintenance once the final project approval paperwork is signed.

On the blue banner, select Feed,

then Search,

then select the Member Search tab and hit the blue Search Members button, (no need to select any criteria there)

This will show 48306 members 😜  Hit the Sort By pull down menu.  Look at Post Count, and then by Reputation to help you find the most active members and the most appreciated content.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for your time at the helm, Richard!  I appreciate your coming here to try answer the hard questions and critiques, and understand you often had to navigate tortured waters to try to provide us a coherent response.

Best wishes in your future endeavors.

3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

You have a lot of good points. 
 

Who is your Comissioner? Very easy to see at my.scouting. Login, go to your unit, click on organization manager, then unit dashboard. The dashboard should really be the landing page and get rid of the menus. 

Thanks for the steer!

Unfortunately:

10 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Thanks all for the thoughts and comments - they are greatly appreciated.

I'm wondering if I'm seeing something of a trend here.  People don't feel that councils are investing in Commissioners and other district volunteers.  As a result, People are not motivated to volunteer and so you end up with a small group of "the faithful" who will volunteer.

We think there could be more success if:

- It was clear councils appreciated and recognized these district level vounteers.

- councils invested in training and development of these district level volunteers.

- council professionals placed a priority on recruiting district level volunteers.

It sounds like some districts may be doing an OK job at this and as such some districts are fielding more complete and happy teams.

Does this feel like something of the right direction?  

 

 

 

 

A good start!

Now, how do we make the Unit Commissioner role effective?

If you look at the job description...

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/NCST-Unit-Commissioner-Job-Description.pdf

...it assumes some key conditions - that Commissioners integrate into the unit rhythms, and that units can access the Commissioner's Assessment and will follow the guidance of the Unit Commissioner.  

The many Unit Commissioners I have talked with express frustration over the following things:

1.  The unit leadership views them as an outsider, with bad intent. Word on the street is, you never see a Commissioner unless there is a problem in the unit.  That is, they are harbingers of an illness in the unit.  This is probably a result of #2...

2.  Commissioners wear more hats than that of Unit Commissioner, and this detracts from their being able to spend the time it takes to build solid relationships so that a unit will listen to what you have to offer.  IMO, Commissioners should be attending unit meetings about monthly, and a unit outing about every quarter... (no, they don't have to camp out overnight, but they should have that opportunity!!  Cannot do this under current policy unless they are on the unit roster.  And, although I cannot find this in writing at the moment, I believe Commissioners cannot be members of units they are assigned to,.  Catch-22.)  (No, they should not be counted as adult leadership for supervision requirements.)

3.  No one knows who their unit commissioner is.  Where can I find this info?  You should be able to see it in your unit info on my.scouting.  Good luck with that.  And on that line of thinking, where is my Commissioner's Unit Assessment?  The succession of Unit Leaders should be able to readily access these for several years.  Good luck with that, too 😜  Bottom line: lack of transparency does not engender trust.

4.  There is a culture of "we're gonna do it our way" I have seen in many units.  This first comes from an ignorance of BSA policy.  Then, once finding out they are doing something not in accordance with BSA policy, an arrogance of maintaining that posture because "that's the way we have always done it, so that's the way we are gonna continue."   What carrots does a Commissioner have to offer a unit?  And what sticks? That is, when the Commissioner (tactfully) informs the unit they are doing something awry, there is no repercussion unless it is a YPT violation (see #1.)  Here's an example... a Commissioner visits an Eagle Project in progress to lend a hand and build relationships with the unit.  He sees a youth using a battery powered skill saw (and with no hearing or eye protection).  https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-028.pdf  When the Commissioner discreetly points this out to the unit leaders on hand, the unit leaders take no action to inform the Eagle candidate running the show, nor do they take any other action to correct the situation.  Should the Commissioner employ a "stick" here and tell the unit leader he will report the matter to the Chartered Organization Rep, or the District Executive, or the Scout Executive?  Should the Commissioner note this in a Unit Assessment Report? Should he file a "Near Miss Report"???   https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-017_fillable.pdf  See how we are going down the road of point #1??  (BTW, yes, this has happened, and nothing came of it, except the Commissioner was re-assigned to a different unit at his request.  Do you think that UC felt supported by the DE or council leadership??)

Overall, I find the attitude of self-policing, improvement, and a desire to know the right way to do things and to do it generally lacking in most adult leaders.  Is a UC gonna be the one to change that culture in a unit?

2 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I'd welcome thoughts on what a district/council could meaningfully do to break this cycle.  

Like many, I've been in Scouting long enough to see the same pattern.  I can't help but feel I'm watching the same cycle over and over again.  Yes, the answer is "we just need to recruit some experienced commissioners..."  Anyone have success doing that?

 

No... haven't seen a "successful" or robust Commissioner program.

I have always believed you need to incentivize the behavior you want...

Other than the parents having their children earn Eagle Scout, what incentives are there for adults to volunteer in any capacity?

Altruism lasts but for a season.  Volunteers need to feel appreciated, valued, and recognized.  And when an organization invests in their training and development, volunteers grow even more dedicated.

Do you feel appreciated in your council? (Personally, no.)

Are you recognized for the value you add to the organization at all levels? (No)

Does your council/district/unit invest in your training? (Unit yes... unit pays for required position training, and will pay 50% of training that contributes to JTE metrics. District and council, no.)

Has someone mentored you in a path of development as a Scouter? (No)

When you learn of the salaries of higher ups in BSA, does it affect your willingness to volunteer or donate?

https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/

Our council exec's individual compensation package is $270K per year.  Well into the top 5% for households in our area (but not nationwide.).  When most parents learn this, they are absolutely shocked.  Yeah, they'll volunteer to help their kid's unit, but nothing past that...  especially when they see little to no value added from council to their Troop program/success.

You, too, can be fully green 😜

There's always a gold nugget or two buried in there somewhere.  And probably a rotten apple (or two) as well.

29 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Can you show me how long that is a national requirement, because this is the first I am hearing about this.

Also does anyone know how to remove courses that My.Scouting.Org say I need to take, but have taken already, and taught, in a classroom setting?  Thankfully it says I am fully trained, but keeps showing online modules as if I need to do still.

IOLS is a Position Trained requirement. 

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Position-Trained-Requirements-July2024.pdf

And councils are supposed to be enforcing this within six months of being in a position.  But that varies by council.  See link below for PA Dutch Council, which puts it a 12 months.  Councils are supposed to be denying position renewal without training, but I have never heard of it actually being enforced.

http://padutchbsa.org/training/#:~:text=Pennsylvania Dutch Council Training Policies&text=Scouts BSA and Venturing Leaders,during the twelve month period.

For the training piece, for several positions, you have the option of doing either an in-class session, or the online modules to complete the required training.

For example, for the Scoutmaster role, you may complete EITHER S24, Scoutmaster Specific, OR all those course modules in the list in the first link above.

We actually ask our leaders to do both in-person sessions (when available) and online modules.  It's part of our Culture of Excellence 😜

You learn different things in either training medium.  And, when done well, the in-person/interactive stuff is so much better.  

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

However, I believe they would have been fine if they had been willing to delegate skills they lacked to others.

As you point out, many now have no outdoors/Scouting experience... so to whom are they to delegate?

19 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

At present, IMO, National HQ serves no purpose to scouts, units or councils.

Yeah, we could do a wiki and generate most of the materials coming out of National.  Including the Scout Handbook.

12 minutes ago, SSScout said:

The  misguided EBoR  that asks an Eagle candidate to tie a Bowline...   If they can't tie it then, it does no good to ask them, and it is not a failure of the Scout, but of the Troop.  

I have no problem asking Eagle Scout candidates to demo Scout skills, or show some Scout knowledge.  But, usually, it is a follow-on to a question about program and experiences.

"Jenny, what are some things you liked about Scouting?"

"I loved Pioneering Merit Badge, and learning to work with rope to build things."

"That's great!  Did you share some of these skills with the other Scouts in your Troop?"

"Yes, I was our primary Troop Instructor for whipping, knots, and lashings!"

"OK, right!  I see on your Eagle Application that is one of the Positions of Responsibility you have cited for your rank requirements.  Would you be willing to tie a bowline for me?  Here's a piece of rope."

"Sure!" <Ties the knot>

etc etc etc

It is not a test for the Scout, and, if the Scout cannot tie it, I would certainly not hold her up unless the candidate said something like "I never learned to tie a bowline." (Then it would be about not ever completing a requirement, versus not being able to remember how to do it.)

It is a measure of the program and Troop culture, and not necessarily a measure of the Scout.  "Its purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled."

14 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Commissioner corps?  District commissioners have worked okay, but I've never, never seen unit commissioners work well.  IMHO, 98% of the time unit commissioners is a broken concept ... for many, many, many reasons.

The quality issue is because scouting is conceptually simple, but the implementation is way overly complex; too complex for most leaders.  Worse, the program delivery has far too much variety.  The program would do better if it focused more on getting the scouts outside and being active.  Worry less about leadership and character.  Instead, focus on being active.  Then, leadership and character comes as a result of being active.

Agreed!

And I think we would do better if we set the expectation that adults will learn Scout skills as well.

Most adults I know cannot tie the seven basic knots in the Scout Handbook (much less do any lashing), use a map and compass to find their way, sleep outside in less than 40 degree weather, go backpacking, or, more generally, know most of the things in the Scout Handbook that Scouts have to know (or know what "right" looks like).  And they are afraid to admit it and then go learn.

What happened to Be, Know, Do?

Somehow we need to cultivate a culture of the Pursuit of Excellence.

I, too, meet scads of Scouters who are unwilling to admit that they need some changes to improve their Scouting.

Good luck overcoming this psychological barrier. 

30 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Agreed.  Quality control is a major issue.  ... Scouting is like ordering a McDonalds Quarter Pounder and having equal odds of getting chicken nuggets, a taco or dog food.  

Units have such different personalities and habits.  Leaders are even more varied.  When the scouting magic is there, it's a wonderful experience.  It's easy to miss out on that magic though.

This is what the Commissioner Corps is supposed to be for.  And, in all the councils I have been in, it has been sorely lacking.  I have some thoughts on the reasons for this.  What are yours, and how could we fix?

Just now, Tron said:

What stops a "friends of" CO from going the route of the money earning application? In my experience the only time I have been told no/had a money earning application denied was when I was going to solicit an organization that I had contacts at for a unit donation and I found out that at higher levels the organization was already directly contributing to FOS in my council so I was told to not piss the source off by asking for another donation. I have never had a bakesale, or candy bar, or dinner fundraising application denied by my council. Additionally there are no rules prohibiting acceptance of unsolicited donations. 

Spot on!

Nothing.  You hit upon one of the bigger issues also... deconfliction.  Council does not want CO's going to the same well to ask for funding.  That's where I could see things going off the rails...

21 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Right. My point was it is no different than any other CO. 

Yes, and this is why National tries to discourage incorporation of units or their "boosters".  

It is all about the money!

For your average CO, their raison d'être is not Scouting.  Take a church, for example... Your local church "uses" Scouting as a program to enhance their service to youth.  If Scouting units under a CO fold, then the CO continues its other activities.

Your local church may ask for donations for a new steeple, to replace their pews, or put a new coat of paint on everything.  That is different from your local church asking for donations solely to support their Scout units.  When they go down that road, their activity falls under the charter agreement.  And, when they do have any money or property earmarked for Scouting, if the unit folds, the agreement is that they will keep all that money and property for the purposes of Scouting, should they start up a unit again.  (Of course, council wants that money, so they sometimes pursue that purse.)

For the "Friends of Troop XX", their entire purpose for existence (if you didn't yet look up what "raison d'être" means 😜 ) is to support the Scout units, so any and all monies and property they should be used solely for the purposes of Scouting.  If the units fold, then the reason for the existence of the corporation ceases also.

In everything I have read, nowhere does National "prohibit" units (or "Friends of") from incorporating (because they really cannot).  BUT, they do put the threat of revoking your charter out there.  "Units could lose their charter if they tried to get their own tax-exempt status and solicit tax deductible gifts."

Here's an example (page 2, end of first paragraph):  https://www.ciecbsa.org/document/tax-exempt-for-units/25798#:~:text=Units should not incorporate or,approved unit money-earning projects.

And another https://lpcbsa.doubleknot.com/newsfeed/fiscal-policies-and-procedures-for-bsa-units/9007

And another https://michiganscouting.org/unit-resources/unit-finance/

You'll notice the verbiage is exactly the same, which means (to me) this comes out of National...

I never heard of National denying someone's charter for this.  YMMV

I cannot see them doing it, especially these days, unless the money amounts get big, and they get jealous/greedy.

1 minute ago, DuctTape said:

Dogs and cats living together.

https://youtu.be/-9NMt42il4Q

42 minutes ago, SSScout said:

What would happen today?

Mass hysteria...

1 hour ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Scouts: "We promote conservation."

Also Scouts: 'If we sell this camp, we can put in new toilets at our other camp!"

"Oh! And let's log it for more cash before we sell it!"