InquisitiveScouter

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Q/A: Resident Camping Requirement

 

Q: I have a question about Unit Elections. For the camping requirement of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping does the camping have to be at a BSA owned and operated camp, or can it be a unit long term campout allowed by the council?

A: There has been some confusion over what camping qualifies in meeting the membership requirement for camping. Three factors apply:

Camping must be under the auspices of an approved BSA program.

The decision on what specific camping meets the spirit and intent of the camping requirement rests with the unit leader of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election.

It is preferred that camping requirements be met as part of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election (i.e., troop, crew or ship); however, extenuating circumstances may exist (e.g., in cases where a youth did not have an opportunity to meet the requirement with the unit), that make it appropriate for unit leaders to consider other BSA camping experiences (e.g., a Venturer counting camping nights completed with a troop or camping nights completed while serving as a staff member at a council camp or national high adventure base). In each case, the unit leader must satisfy themselves the spirit and intent of the requirement was met (i.e., it was indeed qualifying outdoor camping).

The term "ship nights" refers to nights during with the individual slept overnight on their ship. The ship need not be underway during that period for the nights to qualify.

This does not say that the resident camp must be at a BSA owned or operated facility. If the national Order of the Arrow committee had wanted to say that, they would have. The language used was very carefully composed. If a unit runs their own long-term resident camp, "under the auspices and standards" of the BSA, it qualifies. The BSA does have very explicit standards for a resident Scout camp, requiring much more than just a week long campout. Your local council camping committee can provide more information on what the current standards are.

Some of the confusion may be caused by an error in a recent printing of the Boy Scout Handbook, which stated the camping had to be at "a local or national council facility", but that is incorrect.

 

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/resident-camping-requirement

LOL, is the National OA Committee implying that a unit run "resident camp" must comply with NCAP?

Q/A: Resident Camping Requirement

Q: I have a question about Unit Elections. For the camping requirement of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping does the camping have to be at a BSA owned and operated camp, or can it be a unit long term campout allowed by the council?

A: There has been some confusion over what camping qualifies in meeting the membership requirement for camping. Three factors apply:

Camping must be under the auspices of an approved BSA program.

The decision on what specific camping meets the spirit and intent of the camping requirement rests with the unit leader of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election.

It is preferred that camping requirements be met as part of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election (i.e., troop, crew or ship); however, extenuating circumstances may exist (e.g., in cases where a youth did not have an opportunity to meet the requirement with the unit), that make it appropriate for unit leaders to consider other BSA camping experiences (e.g., a Venturer counting camping nights completed with a troop or camping nights completed while serving as a staff member at a council camp or national high adventure base). In each case, the unit leader must satisfy themselves the spirit and intent of the requirement was met (i.e., it was indeed qualifying outdoor camping).

The term "ship nights" refers to nights during with the individual slept overnight on their ship. The ship need not be underway during that period for the nights to qualify.

This does not say that the resident camp must be at a BSA owned or operated facility. If the national Order of the Arrow committee had wanted to say that, they would have. The language used was very carefully composed. If a unit runs their own long-term resident camp, "under the auspices and standards" of the BSA, it qualifies. The BSA does have very explicit standards for a resident Scout camp, requiring much more than just a week long campout. Your local council camping committee can provide more information on what the current standards are.

Some of the confusion may be caused by an error in a recent printing of the Boy Scout Handbook, which stated the camping had to be at "a local or national council facility", but that is incorrect.

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/resident-camping-requirement

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Your mental gymnastics could come back to bite …

• Philmont trek is a series of overnights interrupted by hikes with full packs.
• Seabase sailing adventures is a series of overnights interrupted by rolling up your bunk, stowing it in the hold, and snorkeling reefs or touring islands.
• We could say the same for extended adventures with dog sledding, cross country skiing, or circus caravans.

Look, let’s clear all of the machinations off the table and do what this forum prattles on incessantly about doing. Be boy led.

Have the scout read the requirements, look at his camping log, and ask him what he thinks should be decided.

OK, still having coffee and waiting for my teenagers to get out of bed, so...

Back to philosophy.  Here's another twist:

Q: Who decides what camping activities qualify for the camping requirement needed for election to the Order of the Arrow?

A: With the camping requirement, as with all other eligibility requirements, it is the unit leader's job to interpret whether a Scout has met the requirement.

As stated in the Guide for Officers and Advisers (2021 revision, page 18):

"Unit Leader Approval.  To become eligible for election, a Scout must be registered with the Boy Scouts of America and have the approval of their unit leader prior to the election. The unit leader must certify their Scout spirit (i.e., their adherence to the Scout Oath and Law and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader must also certify that the nominee meets all specified requirements at the time of this annual election."

Other than defining the length of time needed for a camping activity to be considered a long-term camp*, the National Order of the Arrow Committee leaves the interpretation of the camping requirement to the unit leader.

* A "long-term camp" is one consisting of at least six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping. A "short-term camp" is anything less than that.

https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/camping-requirement-interpretation

Unpack that one 😜

For the letter-of-the-lawyers, define "resident camp"

42 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Have the scout read the requirements, look at his camping log, and ask him what he thinks should be decided.

Love it; will do!

9 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Asked and answered here: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/

Wade through the myriad comments, if you dare.

From the article:

"Short-term campouts provide variety in both preparation and experience, and the Scouts are more likely to have to set up their own tent and take more responsibility for outdoor living skills. A long-term summer camp is still a long-term camp even if the Scout is there for only a portion of the time. It’s an entirely different adventure and usually doesn’t call for the same level of self-reliance required for a short-term camp."

I think we'll count the canoe trek as 5 short-term camping experiences, with a day of canoeing between each one 😜

2 hours ago, UKScouterInCA said:

OK, bit of an aside, but I always found the Req's for the Camping MB weird. The Scout can only claim one long term camping trip (up to 6 nights) and needs 20 nights. But no guidance on what a short term camping trip is. 1 night? 2? 3? 4? 5?. What about a Scout who has done multiple long term camps? It seems weird that they can use a one night car camping trip, but no nights at all from that 12 night Philmont expedition because they already had a summer camp counted? Or does it camp for x nights?

Same reasoning I was questioning, @UKScouterInCA.  It is all poorly worded.  I believe the intent is to have a Scout set up camp multiple times, in a multitude of different settings, and fit into the mindset @qwazse outlined above.

Look at the relaxed OA requirements for camping above.  If you are a letter-of-the-law person like @mrjohns2 , then a Scout could have camped in his own back yard 27-31 May (5 nights in May) and then 01-05 June (5 nights in June) and have been eligible with short term nights.  Never move his tent for this "virtual camping" experience.  Not exactly what we'd be looking for, huh?

2 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Don’t shirk the rules @InquisitiveScouter, it isn’t very obedient of you. Not everyone gets a ribbon, trophy, or sash. 

Not shirking.  But I am a spirit if the law person, rather than a letter of the law type.

56 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

No camping in September, October, or November? I think I see where the problem is. 

Troop was camping.  This Scout is also deeply active in school, sports, band, and church.  I wish every Scout was as well rounded as he.

Don't jump to conclusions without asking about the facts.

You aren't making a very splendid figure @mrjohns2

The canoe trek was August. Election is early Jan. We have one trip sched next month for 2 nights.  He'll be short 2, unless we count all the nights of August, then he'd be over the requirement.

Concur... but he has not been in Scouting for full two years. Joined at 13.  Very active, great skills, and participates a lot.  Def an "honor camper" already. I think it would be a disservice to him (and the Troop) to have him wait another year.

• Have experienced 15 nights of Scout camping while registered with a troop, crew, or ship within the two years immediately prior to the election. The 15 nights must include one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of at least five consecutive nights of overnight camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. Only five nights of the long-term camp may be credited toward the 15-night camping requirement; the balance of the camping (10 nights) must be overnight, weekend, or other short-term camps of, at most, three nights each. Ship nights may be counted as camping for Sea Scouts.

OA "Selections" coming up. (They are not really elections. ) We have a First Class Scout who attended Summer Camp, so has the long term nights covered.  After camp, he also went on our canoe trek of 6 days and 5 nights.  Each day, they packed up camp and canoed to a new site, setting up a new camp.  

I think we should count those as short term versus long term nights, for eligibility purposes.  I believe the philosophy behind the  eligibilty requirement is to eliminate camping in one place for the required nights.

Thoughts?

Also to inform the discussion, consider 2021 OA policy:

• The limitation on counting no more than three (3) nights of virtual short-term camping in a single month is increased to five (5) nights per month. All other requirements for virtual short-term camping eligibility remain in effect.
• The requirement for a long-term camp of five (5) consecutive nights is relaxed. While council long-term camps should be utilized if available, any combination of short-term and/or long-term nights, in camp or virtual, that are part of a BSA unit-organized unit camping event held within the two years prior to election may be counted toward the 15 night requirement.

59 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

One certenly does not "mess in your own nest"  because it is a career for many.  The BSA couldn't afford to pay me for what I contribute, but that's OK because like most I don't do it for the money.

I do it for the money!  Our Committee just doubled my pay!!

$0 x 2 = $0

23 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, but he was a paid professional. I don’t know how much he can no.

Barry

LOL, yes, you are correct.  But he could say "No" to being a "professional."

I have turned down several offers of DE positions...

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The problem with any volunteer type organization is talented workers keep getting more responsibilities until they are sucked dry.

Yes!  This is why we tell new folks the best skill to acquire is to know when to say "No."

We give them the 5 year membership so they can apply for scholarships

He was a known quantity in the council. Worked other jobs on the staff and at camp...

I never had much interaction with him, and knew of him to be a generally good fellow.

First report was that as he got into the role, he realized he sincerely found it distasteful.

It is a curious development. I may ask my other contacts what the issue was.

P.S.  Even doing an annual increase, that would be about a 10% per year increase!

So, council announced our new DE two weeks ago in our council newsletter!!

He quit today.

Speaks volumes...

Reviving this old thread.

Was just looking at our Troop budget for next year, as we purchase a 5-Year NESA Membership for our new Eagle Scouts.

Price is now $100!!  Effective 20 Jan 2022.  Yes, I know I'm a little late, but we didn't have any Eagle Scouts this year due to a zero recruitment year 5 years ago.  But that's another story...

That's a 286% increase.

Here's their gobbledygook:

"NESA is the largest and most recognized group of Eagle Scout Alumni Achievers. We’ve kept membership fees artificially low for many years while offering a high number of college scholarships and other unique Eagle Scout opportunities.  Just as you and your family must keep pace with rising costs, we must ensure a robust ability to deliver membership experiences that support and protect the mission, values, and time-honored traditions of Scouting."

There is an 8-hour ECSI WFA refresher course.  It does not count for BSA WFA.

BSA has issued a WFA curriculum:

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-008.pdf

And ESCI and BSA have an agreement that the BSA course is 16 hours....

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/training/ecsi/

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/training/wilderness-fa/

There are two options for completing the 16-hour requirement: all classroom, or blended 8-hour online and 8-hour classroom. 

I have taught both courses.  I prefer the full 16-hour in-person course.  In fact, I do not offer the blended course any more.  I'll explain why if you'd like to know...

If someone is teaching an 8-hour course only, and marking it as sufficient for BSA, then I believe they are wrong.  Of course, who is watching or checking at the council level??

5 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

It's  1:30am,  in 14 hours  I head out to an joint Ordeal for four local chapters.  The ceremonies will have to be done by people who have never  done them before, never practiced together,  or even alone because no one knows who has what part.  I will have at best 2-3 hours to work with them before the pre starts. I am honestly dreading this. But until December 31st I'm still the ceremonies advisor for one of the chapters and so I have a duty to do what little I can,  even if my  chapter no longer has a team. 

Prayers  would be much appreciated my brothers.

Walititin Mikemossin Wunachuk

I have witnessed many poor ceremonies where principals read from the books.  I recommend focusing on the movements and the flow of the ceremony, rather than worrying about lines.

Take heart... most candidates don't really get the meaning of what they are hearing anyway.  It takes exposure to the speeches in the ceremonies and ideas several times until the real meaning of the OA begins to sink in.  (Like, studying for Brotherhood...)

17 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Are there other UMC units out there that can share what they are doing?  

We are not a UMC-chartered unit, but I know of several in our area.

Two linked Troops (B & G) sought out separate new CO's.  One went to Kiwanis, and the other to a local Fire House.  However, they are staying at their UMC with a FUA, because the relationship is good and the congregation wishes to continue support.

Another has council as CO, as they could not find a willing participant, so took up this charter as a temporary arrangement.  They are currently at their UMC with a FUA, but are looking to pull up stakes and move completely, when they can find a new home.

A mixed bag, it seems...

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

The most entertaining units to watch are the ones with a main leader who has military experience, but the rest of the adults don't.

Entertaining?  Elaborate, please?

As a retired military member deeply involved in our unit, I find that parents and other volunteers greatly appreciate my direct style, and that I hold Scouts and adults accountable for their actions, and to live up to the promises they make.  If you agree to serve, and then you don't (absent some extenuating circumstances), we simply thank the volunteers for their interest, and move along...

Now, I do wish I could give out Article 15's, as there have been a few adults who certainly deserve them 😜  But, it is much easier to "trim the dead wood" in a Scout unit than it is in the military

I actually find that the average person without military experience fares worse in those leadership roles...  ref @Armymutt above...

5 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Whoever it needs to be addressed by isn't the issue.  The issue is an attitude that no one should ever be disappointed or sad.  So to keep this from happening everybody passes everything all the time.  This isn't just true in Scouting, it's common in everything, except maybe football.  As far as Scouting goes if a kid can't tie a few knots, put up a tent, build a fire or preform a little basic first aid they should never be awarded the First Class.  If a kid sits in a Merit Badge session at a Merit Badge University and just breaths the air, they don't get the merit badge.  But then little Timmy gets upset and tells mom or dad who call the office and cause a STINK, and all of a sudden Timmy gets the merit badge.  Timmy then learns that if you shout loud enough and stamp your feet you get what you want even if you don't deserve it.  Or a young person  plans a great Eagle project that is completed mainly by the parents.  This does not satisfy the requirement but the Eagle BOR passes them.   Sorry folks, but this devalues the whole thing for everybody else.  How about a Troop Committee administratively presenting merit badges to a 17 year old kid allowing him to earn Eagle before he turned 18?  Unbelievable, dishonest, unethical, just plane wrong,  diminished the value for Eagles everywhere?  Yes yes yes and yes, but it happened!  If I had been involved in that I would have no no no, that young man would NOT HAVE BEEN AWARDED EAGLE, no matter how sad, mad or disappointed he and his parents were.

 

I have had many parents ask that I sign something off for their Scout, that the Scout did not do.  When I explain the requirement, most completely agree.  Over many many years, I've only had a small few demand (LOL) that I sign something off.

I politely refused, explaining I did not see how the Scout had completed the requirement.  One even taunted that they'd just get someone else to sign it off.  I tell them I am not responsible for what others do.  I am only responsible for what I do.

Here's a great phrase to unpack in a Scoutmaster's Minute:

"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."

3 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

How about a Troop Committee administratively presenting merit badges to a 17 year old kid allowing him to earn Eagle before he turned 18?  Unbelievable, dishonest, unethical, just plane wrong,  diminished the value for Eagles everywhere?  Yes yes yes and yes, but it happened!  If I had been involved in that I would have no no no, that young man would NOT HAVE BEEN AWARDED EAGLE, no matter how sad, mad or disappointed he and his parents were.

You have got to be kidding me!!!  Surely it wasn't that egregious??