yknot

I know there are many well meaning people working at the National level. However, I would wager that a lot of rational people would say that somehow, the ship has lost its rudder. Frankly, I think it's time for local units to work toward a down-up reorganization, because our parent organization is clearly not meeting our needs. Successful organizations do not operate this way. You are attempting to normalize something that is largely dysfunctional and unresponsive. The idea of National patting us on the head and saying, "Go, shepherd, go tend your sheep and don't worry about all this," is not going to help BSA survive long term. We're right to question. We're right to demand more. We're right to look for ways to make this relationship more functional. If we're in this for the scout, we're compelled to.

They are not common but my point is that they are not unanticipated. BSA spent money lobbying to prevent changes to state laws that would open up the statute of limitations, so they were obviously well aware this could happen.

Well, I've got as many surgical supply stores within driving distance as Walmarts, so perhaps so. Another type is hemostat clamps. All these things have small teeth and they click into a self lock. You can get them on Amazon if you are not close to civilization. I don't just use them for ticks, I use them for a lot of stuff.

Most of our competition -- other youth organizations -- generally do not have these kinds of issues. There is usually a highly functional public interface, things are usually very organized, and the organizational messages and goals are coordinated from the top, wherever it is, down to the local level. I don't have any issue with BSA reexamining fees. It's understood that we have a financial crisis. I do have an issue with the timing and the total lack of contingency planning. Something has really gone off the rails and without some degree of honesty beyond the spin, I'm not sure what's next.

That method is generally not effective. Use tweezers. Personally, I find surgical bulldog clamps the best. You can get them in a surgical supply store and toss them in your kit. I have about 4.

Ridiculous. Another glaring disconnect is that the statement from National says they are setting up a donor funded BSA registration assistance fund. Nothing has been issued to date on a) whether the fund will in fact exist, b) if it does, how it will be accessed and what kind of process will be required, and c) since nothing BSA does at a process level is speedy, how this process can be accommodated within the current rechartering deadline. I don't fault National for struggling some with challenges. I fault them for being so utterly unprepared despite the fact that lawsuits, liability insurance issues, and registration fees are nothing new.

What??? If you've got a scout involved, all BSA policies apply.

I'm just wondering if the problem is that they can no longer get liability insurance. I know they were fighting with their insurers who were balking. Bankrupt or not, if you don't have insurance, I don't think you can operate. That could leave all of us nowhere. Anyone know more about insurance than I do and have a learned opinion?

I agree 'scholarships' don't always work well. For anyone who really wants to stay but will find a fee increase a financial hardship, I wonder if you could find a way to reach out to scouting alumni in your area and ask for sponsorships? Or instead of a unit asking for dollars to be donated to an anonymous scout fund, maybe you could ask for sponsorship of individual scout registrations? A unit could ask to have a tree put up in town hall or home depot or the feed store or someplace that has supported scouts with Please Sign Me Up! cards for Scout J, Scout R, Scout B...

The elephant in the room is that the organizational structure of National/Council/ Units isn't working. National seems oblivious to this and isn't doing anything to address it. That's my biggest concern out of this whole mess. The organization will only continue to be dysfunctional no matter what we do or how much money we charge until that is addressed. It makes me think that the only way to refocus the organization -- and the best thing to do for the future of scouting -- is to stop subsidizing it until they are forced to self examine.

I know. The 'scouting is a great value' statement always has my eyes rolling. While scouting isn't more costly than other organizations or activities, it's not cheaper and there are lot of hidden costs in it in terms of not only material and activities but also time and energy. Don't even get me started about FOS or about volunteers who have to "pay" to volunteer.

qwazse, I was attempting to answer that question. The answer is that they probably read it, but they are only looking to extract the data that was the purpose of their issuing the survey in the first place, since it's skewed to give them some data they are looking for. Does that make more sense?

Several of the BSA surveys I've responded to over the years have used design mechanisms that can skew answers. Many surveys do this and it's why you have to be skeptical of survey results. When BSA issues a survey, they are generally looking for data that will support some marketing message they will eventually spin out.

Why is anyone making a deal over this? Just do more one night camp outs if you feel your wings are clipped. Why do people have such a hard time understanding that scouting is not the same as what you do personally. You are part of an organization that has liability issues to consider and is in the public eye. What you do personally you cannot do while camping with scouts.

Have you been out on a camp out lately with any Millennials? They are the hazards, lol. Insisting on relying on phone apps for weather calls while never looking up at what is brewing over their heads... I have literally had someone looking at their phone tell me that we could carry on no problem while purple clouds and cloud to cloud lightning was over their shoulder.

This is pervasive. Just another reason why boy led shouldn't mean adults hands off. I'm always floored by how clueless adult leaders can be. Perhaps it's because I was exposed to a lot of extreme stuff as a kid and could often see how easy it was to game or out flank the system should you so choose. I never did but I had to navigate around a lot of very unpleasant, scary, and stressful stuff.

It seems like many units have dropped out of the popcorn fundraiser because it not only has gotten to be such a hard sell but also seems to border on encouraging hucksterism. We've dropped out and do other things and usually give a donation to council although not 10%. If enough units drop out, maybe BSA will investigate adding some other fundraising partners.

We can't sell much popcorn here, so we do our own fundraisers and have made a donation to council in lieu of popcorn.

We have never submitted this form. We don't do popcorn. We do our own fundraisers.

You are absolutely right, it's hard to be frugal. You can have them still organize and cook for their patrol with items that are safe for them, but a price adjustment is needed and the scout needs to be willing to underwrite that. Food allergies, medical issues, and preferences are burgeoning and if we want to recruit and retain scouts in the future, I think BSA needs to look at better ways to manage this. In our local units, we've lost nice scouts because the food management systems aren't good from the top down to the unit level. This is also one area where dialing back a bit on boy led is called for, because food can be a deadly weapon just as much as a rifle. And absolutely, you can't segregate kids based on food issues but frequently people still do so. That will be a future headline: "My food allergic scout had to sit outside the tent and eat alone..."

Frugality is not the issue there, safety is. Depending on severity, I would assign scouts with those issues to self budget and self prepare and show personal frugality. That is the problem with all the food allergies and issues today -- economy has to go out the window. And to some degree, the boy led facet as well. I feel like I need a food safety officer more than a range officer. There are also food preferences to consider. It's not just vegan but people who are concerned about sustainability, organic origin, packaging, etc. It gets pricey and complicated to try and accommodate. There are some good MRE options for many of these issues but they are costly.

If you camp out on your property just make sure you have adequate insurance. I carry a $1 million umbrella policy just in case someone trips over a rock and breaks their arm.

I doubt they do. At first pass, I thought what a great idea. The more I think about it, though, it probably wouldn't be worth it because none of the places that I'm aware of that do this charge much. Some of them do it for free and others offer a group discount, so it would be counterproductive. The ones that are pricier are usually those that include some kind of equipment or facility rental, such as a horse, boat, pool, etc. Also, in our area, such outfits are almost the only way for scouts to get certain merit badges. At least two of the local businesses I know that do this charge for it on a break even basis as a community service because they are scout connected, so even if they are charging something you can't assume they are making money although I'm sure some are. You do have the same problem as you have with merit badge colleges or badges earned at summer camp -- instructor quality can vary.

That poster is great, DuctTape. A lot of kids today can't tell the difference. I've been thinking about bullying a lot because of some of the comments in other posts on patrol methods. Kids today hear so much about bullying that unless the message is delivered in a very unique way they tune it out. Another problem is that many bullies claim they are bullied. Here's the scenario: A bully makes comments about another kid. The kid tries to ignore it. The bully persists. The kid finally acts out and says something. The bully reports the bullied kid as the aggressor. This happens frequently and the kids know it. By sixth grade, many of them are already jaded about the whole subject. I can't tell you how many kids have been hauled down to the office just because they pushed back on a bully. Sometimes the bully is the one who knows exactly how to push buttons and get his parents outraged and the system activated. I've seen this happen in scouts as well. So it's very complicated. Because it's so complicated, this is why I was thinking about commentators who feel that peer to peer roasting is a good way to teach the patrol method, or that adults should stay 300 yards away. In my opinion, you have to be careful about this. You can stay hands off but you should still be monitoring what's going on. There's a limit to what kids can sort out on their own, and staying within earshot is the best way to figure out who is bullying whom if an incident occurs.

It does feel like it's now a juggernaut and no one knows where it will land. One of BSA's issues to me is that it always seems years behind the times and never out in front of a challenge. A time or two could be understandable, but it happens again and again. Latest fee increase debacle is only the most recent case in point. I've been worried about scouting for years and from my low level have tried to talk to people where I've had access but it falls on deaf ears. The organization seems to be led by dirigible pilots determined to land the thing their way. Regardless, when it does go to ground, there are going to be a lot of unit level challenges waiting that, once again, it looks like BSA has not invested much energy in anticipating. I just want the best for the organization and it's sad to see that it didn't have more clear eyed leadership IMHO.