yknot

I don't think we should engage in any fights over which organization is more "safe" for youth. Leader and adult use and abuse of alcohol have been issues at plenty of BSA activities too. While it's all inappropriate, there are those who could argue relative safety. I don't want to go there, and I think it's beneath us anyway. I can't account for what Girl Scouts says. Good PR for us will be local. BSA has pretty much boxed itself into a corner. Putting a light on what our kids are out there doing every week is something we actually can do at the grass roots level. It's helpful to remember the real audience though. Parents and leaders love to post and see photos of uniformed scouts lined up at a COH or some other ceremonial event. Most kids don't look at that kind of thing and think they'd give their right eyetooth to join.

Eagle 1993, I completely agree with the idea to sell artwork before camps. Artwork sold to a collector or museum isn't lost; it will be cared for and cherished and there is nothing to prevent a future exhibition of loaned paintings being brought back together. Camp properties sold, on the other hand, will likely be developed and forever lost.

I have no inside information and am not an insider, but based on what I heard through our council it made sense for our council to join the petition and that a significant number of councils have also done so. Would be interested to know what others have heard.

I agree. This exercise is interesting but it is more academic than practical. Reality, post filing, is probably going to be something we can't much envision or have much influence over. Council mergers are not going to be happening while the bankruptcy case is proceeding in all likelihood. I think it's good to try to frame out possible desired scenarios, but the reality is we are facing a new world order and we'll probably have to adapt as we go.

My understanding is that Councils can sign on to be part of the National bankruptcy filing and thus obtain some degree of protection however then any unencumbered assets could be at risk. My understanding is that many did so.

The proposal needs more work but the basic idea is good. Just to advocate for this poor scout who is unknowingly getting his proposal vetted by some scouters who are probably pretty intimidating in their collective expertise, he does state that all wood is already on site so he has at least thought about that aspect even if he didn't articulate why that's a concern. He also states that he is using 3 foot long logs not 12 foot. He absolutely should outline his work plan but I dug plenty of post holes as a kid so I"m not sure that aspect is far fetched. I've also helped build structures like this as planting beds or obstacles on a competition course so I get why he needs mallets. The photos he provided are examples not actual, so it's not clear if that's dirt and vegetation he needs to install to stabilize the project or if that is simply organic decomposition and growth occurring over time at an existing project. I've seen several Eagle projects where I'm not sure anyone reviewed GTSS and Sweet 16 so that reminder is a good one.

This is a great idea and with a little more context, such as including an educational component, it could be a great project. Insect biomass is plummeting. There is a valid conservation message in a project like this and if some education were provided about what it is, why it's needed, and how it could be replicated on a smaller scale elsewhere, it could be a really cool feature of a local park.

There is a certain amount of "local" logic in having regional high adventure or destination bases in the southwest, upper midwest, south, and now mid Atlantic, so I don't hate the idea of Summit either, but I think it's implementation has not been well managed. The loss of council camp properties has been an ongoing crisis BSA has ignored. It speaks to the lack of outside expertise because support easily could have been offered through property management expertise and advice, bench marked program adjustments, or collective purchasing agreements. Facility upgrades are a common challenge and there are common components in engineering, environmental impact issues, etc., that BSA could have developed some basic institutional competency with and been in a position to offer resources.

Being in an area where there are multiple councils and camps, the most successful ones are the most innovative and the most flexible and that least resemble the traditional week long scout residence camp. Allowing provisional scouts as well as non scout siblings and friends to attend; having weeks or specialty tracks that focus on STEM , Shooting, etc.; a day camp option for older scouts who are in summer travel sports and need to be home for weeknight games; two and three day camping options; family camping nights; programming that extends throughout the year; discounts for multi week attendance. Frankly, I want to see as many camps survive as possible. Councils and districts can be upsized or downsized, but in this environment, once a large piece of property is gone from the program, it is gone for good.

The bigger issue is that if it is a Council that is involved in a possible case, the bankruptcy judge may have some ability to go back and review such efforts to hide or preserve assets. Similar to what happens during a medicaid review with an elderly relative who might have tried to gift assets to family members too close to claiming eligibility.

I worked on tort reform as a national public policy issue some years ago. Nothing happened then, nothing has improved since. It's only gotten worse. In parts of Europe and Canada, the legal liability system works differently and organizations like scouting don't have the same kinds of issues and challenges that we have here. We would have to change our system and also our cultural outlook. Americans like to sue. It's why I have always carried a very large personal umbrella policy. I don't like a lot of the changes National has made over the years, but I can understand why some of them happened.

In trying to visualize a more decentralized future for scouting, one of the things that keeps stopping me is liability insurance. Even if we are no longer BSA, if we are anything scout like, I wonder how we are going to be able to obtain affordable insurance. The liability insurance crisis isn't limited to scouts. In every sector I work or volunteer in, everyone is trying to avoid or reassign risk. You can't stand in front of a supermarket, use school or town facilities, or do just about anything else without a COI. Any insurance experts out there with thoughts?

I kind of like that more informal approach. Our CO always has a service, but it's the exact time as our own church's service. We usually opt to go to our own, which is very low key and basically wear your uniform, stand up and say something short, and be friendly. I also have to say, I am not a fan of the BSA's enthusiasm for turning everything into a ceremonial event. A flag ceremony with meaning? Great. An Eagle COH? Great. AOL Crossover? Great. The rest of it on a near weekly or monthly basis just feels like a poor use of time and diminishes the gravity and impact.

The patrol method works in troops where the behind the scenes adult leadership is good. If it is, the scouts learn how to lead and manage their affairs through osmosis and observation of good leaders without a lot of direct influence. If that background doesn't exist, however, the patrol method doesn't work as well. If leaders aren't organized, planning ahead, or resolving interpersonal issues well among themselves, then the scouts will have a harder time figuring those things out because they have no one to learn from. The patrol method isn't an absence of adult leadership or mentoring but to some women I think that's what it can sound like until they see it working well.

Very interesting. Thanks. I agree that outrage over anachronistic behavior is misplaced but I do think the wearing of Native American regalia and other such activities needs to be retired from the program.

There is so much to unpack here it is hard to keep up. Council liability question: The prevailing view seems to think Councils that do not have abuse cases are likely "safe" from litigation. However, many of these cases happened years ago, and so many councils have been merged or moved around, how does anyone know what the liability trail is and if you are "safe"? Frozen payments: If Chapter 11 puts a lid on court cases and insurance pay outs for abuse cases, what happens to run of the mill claims for things like injuries, negligence, etc.? Our insurers seem rather cranky. I would be interested in data on where or in what setting or type of CO most abuse cases occurred. There's some in the filing but it doesn't get granular enough. There are a lot of bad optics here that will continue for the next 2 to 5 years at least, with an ensuing effect on membership. According to the lawyers, the bankruptcy hearing portion may conclude within 2 year but the aftermath, if there is anything left of scouting, will take quite a bit more time to deal with. We've all been watching from the outside but now that the thing is here, the guts of it seem a lot uglier than imagined. I"m hopeful for a complete restructuring, but by then it might be hard to do a reset.

Sad day

Those are a kid favorite however hard to do with a group since you have to have a lot of them. Better for a den or patrol camp out. We've got about six between our various families and they are fun to pull out for smaller groups. You can do anything in them. Spray Pam is the easiest way to use along with some butter. Lots of pam, egg, sausage, and cheese and even that gluten free scout is happy.

@Cburkhardt On this President's Day weekend, thank you for framing and initiating these different conversations about our hoped for better future. I am grateful for all the voices on this board and that we are all able to come together and have these varied and thoughtful discussions.

Hey, thanks. Yes, I think we are probably going to remain toxic for the next few years. But, if we survive, I hope we can pursue some innovative strategic partnerships that could do some great things, especially for the outdoor program. Scouts has to want to still be an outdoor program though.

Restructuring needs to give the grass roots level more prominent, direct, and influential access points. BSA is a very insular, top down organization and it needs to become more nimble, transparent, and accessible. There currently is no way for local units to demand anything from national short of refusing to recharter, which none of us will do because it only hurts the kids. I can't think of a single well regarded business or institution that only promotes from within except for maybe religious orders. That obviously needs to change. In that vein, national needs to reach out and consult and recruit more with and from other successful outside organizations. Examine how other youth organizations like Little League and 4-H are structured, what they know about changing youth demographics and how they are adapting. Customer service has been a problem with National, so do the same with businesses that are known for superior customer service like Amazon and L.L. Bean etc. Why don't we have stronger partnerships with other outdoor oriented organizations, like Audubon, The Sierra Club, etc. Can they partner with us to help with resources for the outdoor program? Where can we find a Bear Grylls? There may already be people from some of these organizations offering token viewpoints on the many boards, but they must not be having much input. The focus of a restructuring should not be, in my opinion, to restructure scouting but to create an organization that can sustain scouting by focusing on the customer -- the units and ultimately the scout and his or her family.

Some random thoughts based on some of the comments here: Update uniforms for simplicity, economy, and functionality. Program fees are likely to go up. BSA can help by making uniform expenses go down. The year to year uniform changes required in cub scouts is a good example. Theoretically, a family needs to replace hat, scarf, belt clasp, slide, and socks every year. At the Troop level, the "field" uniform is more like a dress/parade uniform and yet we expect scouts to show up in it for everything short of marathon running. In other areas of their lives, most kids are used to weather friendly, durable, comfortable, performance wear. National also needs to get out of merchandising. Program repetitiveness and redundancy. By the time a scout traverses from Lion to Troop, they have performed a version of some requirements multiple times and it gets boring. Also remove material that scouts already cover in school. No need to do it twice. This is both in cub ranks and scout merit badges. Food/cooking needs to be re-imagined in the program. Food allergies, issues, sensitivities are making some of the requirements very difficult to meet as written. Many COs like schools or churches will not allow food items on the premises due to food issues. Creating acceptable meals can get very expensive. BSA needs to remove economic barriers to scouting. National needs to de-emphasize the box checking culture of the Eagle and advancement driven mentality. This business/marketing/membership mentality needs to be tempered by a more experiential focus. National needs to innovate some new fundraising options other than popcorn to help fund program goals. Some units/councils have excellent results with popcorn. Many, many do not. We need some other options to help raise cash. National is uniquely suited to come up with BSA branded fundraising items and partners related to preparedness, safety, etc. National should benchmark with other youth organizations to learn about other program delivery innovations in the face of changing social and demographic trends. Other folks are dealing with this better. In our area, an extremely high percentage of scouts achieve Eagle and often at very young ages. At that point, they leave the troop. Some come back as parents decades later to serve as ASMs, but as young adults we lose them. National could help program by coming up with some kind of Eagle scout service award or Eagle active status ranking that might encourage these kids to come back and do some kind of mentoring or unit support if they are high school students, over summer if they are in college, or as young working adults wherever they land. There's nothing that I know of right now? Why are we losing so many scouts at cross over or not long after? In my area, most of our Webelos/AOL scouts are very proficient and have done lots of camping. They don't fear being on their own so much as they hate the chaos of boy led if the transition isn't well mentored by older scouts and adults. Scouting attracts a lot of kids who are very self determined and motivated. They often have a hard time transitioning into a patrol -- essentially team -- environment. So do their parents, and we lose them. Not sure how national can help with that, but it's an issue to be looked at. For program to work, unit level leaders need to be able to have a respectful and receptive line of communications with national. Right now, they do not see or hear us. And, given the prototypical lack of communications from our new leader, they don't reach out to us either. That needs to change.

A serious restructuring could pancake some of the management layers and tasks. Why do we have four, maybe five, tiers of management, from the CO to the unit to the district to the council to the national organization, all operating with different missions and goals and what sounds like an inability to help each other in any but the most model regions? How did that ever happen? There are no other youth organizations out there that require so much heavy lifting by volunteers. When parents are making choices about what to involve their kids in, this is one of their considerations. Scouting is a very top down, bureaucratic organization, with many units in silos doing tasks that could maybe be more easily be shared or consolidated. This is an areas where districts could help. In one possible scenario, things like FOS, popcorn, JTE, merchandising, laborious recharter processes, could go away or be streamlined. We're talking district, but on the national level I also know of no other youth organization that tries to make as much money off of its members through merchandising, whether its uniforms, gear, or advancements, or by requiring adult volunteers to pay to volunteer, or through fundraising as does scouts. And yet we have no money. We can't have five tiers all with their hands out to the parent. There is no question that running activities for kids that have a degree of risk requires a lot of trained volunteers. However, there is a lot of BSA originated "stuff" that seems to needlessly add tasks and to no clear end. Technology and new social media networks have given organizations like ours great opportunities to streamline roles and produce more efficient and effective communications. BSA doesn't seem to take advantage of much of it -- this organization right now is about five years behind where school affiliated youth organizations, youth sports organizations, and random other youth organizations that I work with are and it is not helping us to attract kids and cut down on volunteer roles. None of these groups have tons of money either. I can only surmise they've had better leadership.

Never mind

Is that not the truth? My kids only went once each time. There was no one leading them that could tell them what kind of bird that was that just flew by, what tree, what rock formation. They had fun on the shooting range and some water stuff, but it was not an outdoors experience. They did more outdoors stuff at home.