yknot

In most areas, you can't get disinfecting sprays, wipes, or sanitizers except for random shipments. Media reports say the shortages are caused by demand as well as the unavailability of key ingredients that come from overseas. As businesses ramp up in parts of the country over the next couple weeks, demand will only increase. Shortages are supposed to last at least through July. I'd want to know that a camp has inventory on hand.

Undoubtedly, and I understand that, but I think it's a choice between having kids and adult leaders come home healthy or not. Traditional camp structure and activities are going to have to be adjusted this summer. You had mentioned doing your own camp and I think anyone considering this option as a back up is also mulling these kinds of strategies.

I just don't see how camps and especially HA will be able to run this year. The only things that work right now are social distancing, masks, and hygiene. Temperature checks are really not that useful because a significant percentage of people do not ever develop fevers or only do so long after they have already been contagious. The symptoms we are learning are also increasingly variable far beyond a cough, fever, or sore throat. The CDC recently expanded the symptom list, but it still does not include GI symptoms which appear in many cases. Other nonspecific symptoms include skin rashes, pink eye, and neurologic signs. I am really not sure how a camp health officer will be able to do surveillance on all that and how you would be able to tell a case of routine stomach bug from a possible Covid symptom. If I were running camps, I would try to preserve the main point of summer camp -- getting kids camping outside -- by forgoing some of the other traditional camp aspects. I would have troops forget about splitting up for merit badges, etc., and instead have them experience a shortened camp week if necessary in troop pods. Troops can hike together, boat together, shoot together, etc., assisted by staff with sanitizing between each group. I would cut the census by giving each Troop a half week. Meals would be delivered to the camp site by staff to avoid dining hall issues. Easy enough to set up a camp site fly to have a meal space for each local troop pod. I think to have any semblance of safety this summer you have to change the way you view the camp experience.

In our multi state region, many camps have already cancelled for the summer. I think it's going to be a very regional decision. I would also say that if anything has become obvious about this virus over the past three or so months, it is that we really don't know much about it or how it behaves. It's far more contagious than initially thought, spread possibly even while simply speaking, and its symptoms are far more varied. Temperature checks are a helpful but not really effective screen because the data is showing many infected people don't present with fever. In a large percentage of cases, for example, it presents as GI issues. The point of this is that it is going to be very hard to manage, especially as parts of the country attempt to come back online. Even if camps attempt to open, I expect we'll see a lot of them have to close back down. I personally won't be sending my kids outside of their social cohort this summer. If they camp, they will camp local with the same kids who they will also hopefully be seeing in school this fall. There are plenty of local options. Not as exciting maybe, but child care can be achieved.

It doesn't do any harm to try to plan for camp openings this summer but I can't see it happening in most parts of the country. Much as it pains me, I think scout camps are exactly the kind of camp that should not open this summer in most areas. Scout camps in our region typically draw from a large geographic area, interstate in some cases, and rely on unit parental volunteers who change weekly, if not daily. The contact tracing for it would be mind boggling. Compare this to local rec or institutional linked camps where you might draw kids from one town or a grouping of towns or a county. The staff and support in these kinds of camps is also usually closed -- the same people in the same positions all summer vs. the scout model where a portion changes weekly to daily.

Technically, I guess we can say we are utilizing council approved camps because they are aware of what units are doing, don't take issue with it, and provide COIs for many of the facilities. I am talking about Pack overnighters though, not summer day camp. That we generally do at council run camps I would not like being in your council. My sympathies.

Our cubs have camped for years at state, county, town parks and even privately held properties that offer camping access. Personally, I feel that a significant loss of locally available council camps would be a death blow to scouts. It would then only serve the wealthy or the lucky. Relying on non Council owned camp options going forward will be risky, especially since park services constantly have their funding cut. I can't imagine what is going to happen to park facilities over the next few years as we recover from this. There is no point in keeping council offices and administrative tasks going if there are no camps.

Yup, that's how we wound up with Coxsakie virus among other odd names.

Here's something that would be really useful as we do post mortems on our current national experience: https://www.cdc.gov/onehealth/index.html This initiative is at least ten years old and apart from all the practical ramp up capabilities we need in order to address possible pandemics, it also would create greater common sense surveillance and comparative medicine measures to put in place to help prevent the next zoonotic breakout. At the most basic level, it would also help educate people about every day risks from many poorly understood zoonotic diseases like rabies or tick borne infections. We often rely on advice from the human medical establishment and pediatricians but the reality is that they are flying blind and the real experts are in the veterinary medical field and there is no good mechanism to share information. It is very frustrating to me that as a outdoors oriented (supposedly) organization BSA has practically nil useful information regarding rabies and tick or other vector borne diseases. We should have a compendium of information and resources available. The idea that we send kids out on wilderness survival outings at the height of tick season -- asking kids to make shelters out of leaf litter and other woodland detritus where ticks love to live -- is mind boggling to me. That should be a cold season activity only.

Eagle 1993, that's not what Dr. Fauci said. He said he is hopeful schools can reopen in the fall but I think was pretty clear that summer camps are in question and would depend on how things unfold. The Harvard article is 10 days old and is already out of date. Some kind of staged return to a new normal will need to take place, and yes that will likely result in some new exposures and deaths, but we have to have measures in place to keep that minimal. If you read the article carefully, and if you listen to Dr. Fauci, any kind of return is predicated on having a number of things in place that we do not currently have.

Agreed. You are making my point for me, qwazse. For all those reasons cited there is no point to rush back into activities that are not essential. We need a measured WWII mentality. We are in this for the long haul and need to do all the right and prudent things as best we can determine. This will be our version of rationing, national discretion -- not in what we say but in what we do -- and sacrifice of some of the things we'd normally like to be enjoying. Our doctors, nurses, and medical researchers are in the middle of something like a Manhattan Project right now. We need to do our best to help them by not adding to the problem. IMHO.

qwaze, you are misunderstanding the concept of "herd immunity". The term arises from production animal medicine where producers want to minimize losses among livestock for economic reasons. It is generally achieved via vaccination. Producers do not want the kind of herd immunity process through contagion that you describe because that creates unsustainable economic losses. That is why producers are sometimes required to destroy entire herds or flocks to minimize the spread. We don't do the equivalent of that with humans for obvious reasons. In the scheme of things, recreational kid activities this summer should be pretty low down on the priority list. For starters, the workplace needs to get a lot safer for essential workers. Then we can start thinking about phasing in other aspects of daily life and the economy. Some of the models out today are talking about measures being in place until August so we'll see what happens.

Anyone weighing summer camp or other youth activities this summer needs to pay attention to the latest CDC report in Morbidity and Mortality released today. The report documents more than 2500 US pediatric infections, albeit many of them mild, but hundreds have resulted in hospitalization and there have been three deaths. It is useful to note that the median age of infected patients is 11 years and not all of the most serious cases have had underlying conditions reported. Children are less at risk, but they are still at risk. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6914e4.htm?s_cid=mm6914e4_w

I'm sorry but this is not the reality in many corners of our country that are not affluent. Sometimes the only times kids with underlying issues are picked up is when they have a mandatory physical.

I don't agree with either of those positions for medical reasons, but think about what you are suggesting from another angle: What kind of public relations do you think the bankrupt BSA would garner if it waived standard annual physical exam requirements in order to allow scouts to attend camp this summer and an asthmatic scout fell ill with COVID 19? It is not worth the risk of further damage to our reputation.

I've seen this idea floated before about waiving Part C to allow participation at camp. First, I'm not even sure how that would work on a liability basis from an insurance perspective. Second, it would seem ill advised from a public health perspective and that the opposite would be more ideal -- a more current physical. If there was ever a time to identify any underlying and previously undiagnosed conditions, or for a health care provider to provide one on one advice before heading to camp, it would be now. I understand the deep desire that we all have to get back to normal as quickly as possible but I don't think this is a good idea. Although I worry that wouldn't stop BSA from adopting it given the track record.

Yes, we just filed for this for our church and for a small business as well. I don't see camps or HA realistically operating this summer. Without a vaccine or effective therapeutics, I would not send a kid to camp even if they were open. The virus is mutating all the time and the more cases there are, the more mutations there are. We have seen an explosive increase in cases in the US and Europe. There is no guarantee it won't mutate into something that children are more susceptible to. The best way to avoid this is to keep them out of the clinical picture so that this very smart virus doesn't "learn" how to also target them. School in the fall with health measures and surveillance in place might be worth the risk. Optional camps or HA outings with poor hygiene this summer, no.

There will be no HA this summer. There will be no summer camps. So don't worry about it. Hopefully we can get something figured out for 2021. Nothing is going to happen until there is a vaccine or effective therapeutics and all that is months to a year or years away. Focus on supporting your family and helping the country and your fellow citizens by staying in place during this challenging time.

I'm sure we'll come out of a shutdown for a time if things start to look better. But then I expect we'll go back to some version of it because the virus does not show signs of being containable or seasonal. The amount of effort that is going to be required to deal with the fall out of it are going to be substantial and limiting for many aspects of our daily lives. Unless there are clear cut medical recommendations indicating it is completely safe for children and adults to gather in significant numbers, or there is some kind of medical breakthrough fast tracked on either the prevention (vaccine) or treatment front, I'm not sure much of anything will go on this summer due to liability and health concerns.

This is where BSA is missing the PR boat. We absolutely have tons of engaging online content and plenty of ideas for at home activities that could introduce non scout kids and families to scouting. Some of them might be interested enough to sign up when this is all over. I don't know why this isn't showing up on lists of things to do with your kids at home in major media. Why BSA isn't pushing any of it out on social media platforms (that I can see)? There is no risk of a child predator while doing a fun cub or scout activity from a rank achievement list or merit badge at home, and there are a ton of fun, interesting, or challenging ideas and activities in our program for all ages.

I don't think it's a good idea to have youth in a food establishment. They are trying to hang on with takeout orders, and food safety is paramount. No one other than essential and trained personnel should be on site. Right now is a perfect time to work on Bird Study. We're in the middle of spring migration. Most people live along a fly way. The lack of foliage right now and for the next couple weeks in most parts of the country means that many species are more easily viewed. Given how migration works, even the most urban setting can wind up with an amazing variety of species between now and May. Go on Cornell or Audubon sites and get your scouts birding. It can be done from the window.

I think we are over thinking this. Up to 100 or 150 years ago, most kids grew up isolated on the family farm with just parents and siblings. Some of the greatest human beings known to man grew up this way. I don't think a few weeks, months, or even a year of this is all that bad. We'll get through it. Wouldn't it be great if the long term benefit of this pause in our overly frenetic lifestyles is that kids learn how to think and concentrate again instead of living in our non stop ADHD world.

I think the best way we are all being told to help our community is to stay home and help our families get through this. A lot of these ideas are well intended but sending scouts out into the community in any way right now is a bad idea. Older scouts can help entertain younger siblings while mom and dad try to work from home. All scouts can get on the phone every day or on Skype and talk to grandma and grandpa and break up their boring day. Or a neighbor's. Older scouts can offer to do online or phone tutoring for younger kids that are having trouble with the new distance learning. Go through toys and see if there are any puzzles or games that can be donated anywhere that might take them assuming they are able to be disinfected. Make a training video for younger scouts on knot tying or some other lesson that can be used for a virtual den or troop meeting. Scouts can help with pet care by walking the dog around the block while maintaining social distancing. Work on some wildlife or conservation projects in the backyard. A lot of migrating birds are landing all over and are pretty hungry right now. Go on Audubon or Cornell and see what kinds of food you might have on hand and could put out (safely if you are in bear territory) to help them survive migration. Start work on a veggie garden to help your family have fresh produce if this continues through the summer, or work on a butterfly garden that will help our endangered butterflies. If you have a flag pole, do a flag ceremony every morning and night to remind everyone within hearing distance what we're all about. Or just put your flag out every day. If you have musical talent, play something in the backyard that your neighbors can hear (with discretion). I would not send kids under 18 into stores, but if an adult goes, your older scout could run the packages from the car to the porch step for an elderly or quarantined person. Also keep in mind that they should not be doing anything that could land them in the ER. The last thing you want is to be in the ER right now, and the worst thing for the community would be to have to allocate a hospital bed or medical resources to someone who suffered an avoidable injury. Be safe and well out there.

My apologies, BAJ. Bad day yesterday and I took your post the wrong way.

For crying out loud, we have more things to worry about than scouts getting advancements with made up community service projects. The best community service is to stay home and help your family.