curious_scouter

I found self-organizing was key. Not right away but just ahead of the next elections we had "patrol re-org night". SPL announced "You are all released from your patrols!" They were given 30 minutes to "congeal" into new patrols. It was interesting. We started with 5 Patrols, we ended with 5 Patrols. Noone specified max/min Patrol size nor number of patrols - we just let it happen. I was worried about this as we have 5 patrol kits... so as much as I love the Patrol Method - sometimes practical considerations do play a part. As it turned out, the politics and awkwardness involved with being honest and making a change was too much for a lot of the youth to stomach. Which I get. Imagine taking your patrol into the patrol room and saying "If anyone wants to change Patrols go ahead" That's a lot of pressure. This was a way to allow it without making anyone voice that decision. In the end, every Patrol seemed happier and stronger. I'm not sure if it needs to be annual, but I think it was a super healthy way to promote some mobility. We did not provide a lot of rules. We said a good guideline was 10-12 max in a patrol, YPT was mandatory as is buddy system. So the Patrols needed to support all that. We shoot for 10-12 in a Patrol as it seems on average you'll get 60-80% of a Patrol max at meetings and outings. Which lends itself to right-sized groups for outings and meetings. Second tip: Get your SPL to NYLT. If Wood Badge is not getting the SM to act right, NYLT might get your SPL to start delegating, etc. This is accurate. You must get comfortable with failure and imperfection. But nothing is better than when the Patrols finally get it together. They will. You have to let them. I think way too many adult leaders feel this is the "no fail" zone. They think they (the leader) will "look bad" if the unit is not super regimental. Everyone needs to get over that ego. It's not about us adults. We're just there to sip coffee, sit as much as possible, and keep them out of traffic. Our job is to help them fail less each time. Not to avoid failure.

This is a camp problem, not a you problem. Echoing similar advice: Don't leave it to chance. Address it with them before committing to camp and then hold them to it. If they can't commit to making it a comfortable experience (facilities and experience/emotionally) then find a better option if you can.

I honestly don't know how to explain it to an adult any more than I can explain faith to someone without it. I feel like it's one of those things like Peter Pan once you hit a certain age "practicality" takes the driver seat. But these are youth and they need and crave fun and adventure. If you can't understand that's better delivered with a "band of brothers" than force marched into "groups that make sense" it will be hard to convince you. In my unit, I had to force it. I had the "luxury" of being the new Scoutmaster and therefore holding the authority to insist we at least try it this way for some period. I overheard plenty of snide comments from the adults not in favor of letting the Patrol method take root. I think they have come around. But it was a lot of "why bother telling him X - he'll do whatever he wants anyway" They continually even to now try to slip in their own ways. Particularly if I'm not around. The one and only outing I missed the menu planning meeting for they slid in Troop-wide meals. It was miserable. I think the scouts learned a lesson and I have not seen it since - even in my absence. I guess the only thing I can say is if you try it, and observe it, you will realize this is how it should be. And when in doubt, go back to the source. B.P. said: (emphasis mine)

It's going great. Patrols are all happy with their members. Sometimes relationships change or scouts mature and their Patrol does not "fit" any more so they drift around a little, but not much. And we allow them. The only exception is new scout patrol where you have to have 1 year in or reach First Class before you can elect to move out, but the last two years the crossovers who started in the new scout patrol have chosen to stay in that patrol when they were given the choice and it is building up nicely into a mix of ages and skillets, so it's not JUST all the youngest. Campouts work well, even if the Patrol is small. We do allow Patrols to "team up" with another Patrol if they want but never "split up" - they all team up or they all don't. The Patrols get to exhibit their personalities. One Patrol brings this 14 person tent, they are all within YPT age to share so they just pile in. Another patrol hates setting up a full kitchen, so they find ways to keep setup to a minimum. If you force them all together, you take away those choices and that personality. I love it. I think my take away is this is how it's supposed to be. It's how youth's minds work. If you have a smaller or younger Patrol, you don't force them on the older scouts or take away their leadership and decisions by pressing the youngers in with olders. You create leadership opportunities for the older scouts to help that younger/smaller patrol - like working on your Troop Guides, the SPL, and instructor positions. And if needed, you get an adult leader to work with the patrol leaders who are struggling. But you let them work it out and succeed. The worst thing I think you can do to youth is make them do scouts with people they really don't want to. And make them do it YOUR way. Or assume there is "one way" every Patrol has to behave. They will be miserable, they will quit. But if they love their patrol, they love coming to meetings, outings. Things like cooking and cleaning aren't a chore it's an activity.

Someone outlines the "official way" already I think. I've always seen this go down much more casually. When I was active on Pack committee we had 4 or 5 times that packs in the area "folded" and merged with us. The money and gear belongs to the CO they were chartered with. All but once, that was all just left behind. All a "merger" actually ended up being was families doing transfer applications to our unit. Easy peezy. No CO messiness. But that meant leaving everything behind. Only in one case did we receive any money and property and in that case I think it was more CO-to-CO as they are the real property owners. It wasn't much. A pinewood track, an old laptop. That was CO giving stuff over to CO and then everyone did transfer apps. The old units simply didn't recharter. One time a few years after one of these the pack we got "stuff" from was rechartered by the original CO and contacted us to see if they could pretty please have the pinewood track back and we were like "ABSOLUTLEY" lol. We never needed two tracks and it was taking up so much room in our limited storage. But it was a nice track and we were holding it until we heard of someone who needed one. Worked out! Anyway, I have seen this be just a mass migration event in which things kind of naturally sort themselves out on the "dissolution" end because the old unit simply does not recharter. Unless there's a ton of money or property to deal with it should just be unit to unit transfer applications for the scouts really.

It's a neat idea. If it lights your fire, no reason not to pursue it. That said, my practical side whispers you'd have little uptake between policies towards electronic use and the fact that in 8 years of leading scouts I have literally never seen one use a radio. Do it for you, and if a few people get value - huzzah. But if you're looking for a project to benefit the masses I'd refocus on the Radio merit badge aspect and use this as a means to an end there.

Once official, always official. I think the old badges are cool and I love a colorful uniform on a youth. If they like them, they can definitely wear them. I tend to keep mine less flashy, I'm not trying to show off, but it's their walking trophy case. I love the zany NYLT loops, colorful OA flaps, bold council patches. I love a good ghost patch too. I dunno. I think this falls squarely in the "hike your hike" bucket, at least WRT to "official" items. Shoulder loops custom for NYLT, OA chapters and Wood Badge have become a fad in my area, I'm sure strictly speaking it's out of order, but I see no harm in it and insofar as they promote more activity by youth and leaders in those programs I think they are helpful.

After discussing with me I allow Star and higher to sign off on First Class and lower. I also allow Troop Guides after training. I find that youth-youth for those ranks has benefit. We have a largeish troop, so it avoid bottlenecks getting progress recorded. It also provide repeat chances for the older Scout to revisit material and concepts and to show leadership by testing. I keep an eye on signatures, etc. and if I see a particularly "prolific" scout signoff, I make a point to check in with them more often to maintain my comfort level they are adequately testing. Have been doing this a while, no problems at all.

4.2.1.2 The Scout Is Tested The unit leader authorizes those who may test and pass the Scout on rank requirements. They might include the patrol leader, the senior patrol leader, the unit leader, an assistant unit leader, or another Scout Pretty clear. If you, as unit leader, wish to authorize the PLC to test and pass the Scout on that requirement - I can see no reason you can't. You have a responsibility to ensure those you authorize to do the testing and passing are qualified to do so and that the unit clearly understands who can do what. If you have full faith in your PLC to be honest and just (youth can be petty) then it sounds like a good experiment at the least. It's not without hazard, but I think you can say that about anything really

It's a good point. I am guessing the POV of my exec today will change after Mar 4 rolls around. Will they be square on paperwork by then? Maybe! This is a prudent change, but if they can't rise to the challenge of timely processing it's going to hurt the units and the program.

FWIW my exec replied that council policy is as long as the paper app has hit their desk and YPT is confirmed we're good to go. The lag in council processing the paperwork should not concern us if the paperwork is in as the act of submitting a valid and accepted application is what gets that person covered as a registered leader, insurance, etc. I do worry about the "what if they lose it". Two years ago, our entire recharter was lost and it took 9 months to sort it out. The interim between paperwork and online status is killing us for using otherwise great tools like internet advancement. I can't enter advancement. I can't enter activity logs, training, swimming status, etc, etc. It all hinges on paperwork. Why not just let me keep entering data and information for a person? Ha. True that.

Ugh. If the councils were able to process paperwork quickly, this would all be fine. Our recharter was due Nov 16, 2023 and district/council practically flogged the volunteers in units to get in on time. They even sent out an email calling out units who had not submitted on time by name! Yet recharter is still in process two months later by council. In fact, we recently hand-delivered a new adult application to council as we need this adult at a campout this month and they need to be registered to do that. We were told then they are only about 25% through recharter processing! It could take another 4 months to complete. How on earth can it take 2-6 months to process the most fundamental function we ask from our "professionals" and it's okay? Especially when they hold the volunteers at units to such a standard on getting things in on time? My entire unit currently shows as "not on official unit roster" in Scoutbook because of the lag in recharter processing. New Scouts coming into my unit "off the street" or via Cubs crossing over will not even show up on my roster and in Scoutbook for months. MONTHS. So, if they want to put these new (very practical and wise) rules in place - fine. But... you have to get good at paperwork. It all hinges on paperwork and processes and I can't put the program on hold for 6 months while we wait on paperwork.

My take on how to get adults to do things hinges on viewing life through the lens of three virtual bank balances: Time, Money, and Social currencies. You may have to draw down the balance of all three accounts for certain activities. Everyone has different balances in these accounts. Some may have more Money but less Time, enabling them to financially support others. Those with more Time but less Money invest their time to help without incurring costs. Social currency is spent when actions create hardships for those close to you. Balances in these accounts can only be changed or restored through some form of investment or sacrifice. To maximize adult participation, minimizing spend from all three accounts is crucial. Activities aligned with existing commitments, avoiding charges, and minimizing additional time investment create a winning combination. Adding to the balance through good planning would be a MAJOR victory, although I'm pressed to give a good example of how. Maybe having training at a destination non-scouting members of a family would enjoy spending the day/weekend? The cost from these accounts is personal and highly variable. You can't assume others can shoulder the same burden from any given account as you can. And even if they could, we should always be "thrifty" anyway and try to minimize the spend. For example, an activity falling on Mother's Day could be a major Social Currency withdrawal for some families, valuing togetherness on that day. Meanwhile, others might see it as a day of rest, making an empty house a net deposit in the Social Currency account. Understanding these dynamics helps tailor activities for broader participation.

We had sort of a blow up over this. Scouts BSA unit. Scout turned 18 in Nov/Dec. Friends would not turn 18 until sometime the next year. Wanted to stay in the unit, but in a way where they could still participate with their buddies. Cited "Unit College Scouter Reserve" as being for this purpose but on my own review and review with District and Council - no. The purpose of that role is to forgive the unit of the training requirements for adult leaders for people in that role. The training status of people in that role are not assessed a penalty for the unit in processes like JTE. But it does not mean that person can show up to campouts and set up their tent next to their buddies and go Pal around like days of yore. Sadly, 18 means 18 for Scouts BSA. There's no ambiguity. I've suggested Crew as an option because (as we are chartered under the same org) we could then have combined activities where they could come and be with their under 18 buddies as "adult program participants" as long as the YPT rules around that are followed. I see this a lot in OA for example too. Did not excite the person in this case, so they moved on. But those are the options as I understand them. If you come into Scouts BSA as an adult - you're an adult. You are bound by the YPT rules any adult is and you would, in my unit, be expected to act like adult leaders and "stay out of the scouts' hair" vs. jump in and do stuff with them, camp with them, KP with them, etc.

"I had walked places all my life. So how hard could it be?" Love it.

Same. lol

I was amazed recently when reading about Emma Gatewood who thru-hiked the AT at 67 years old in 1955 (and then again two more times from what I understand) with a main piece of equipment being a shower curtain as a tarp. I thought that sounded so unusual but based on this additional source, maybe it was a common "hack" of that time in history. Nifty.

Good advice. I have this challenge not only in direct comm "Hey, I sent you an email - did you get it?" but also clearly set expectations. For example, it had become the practice to sign up for a campout ONLY if you were going. Our tool for that supports an "RSVP" model where you can explicitly say "I'm not coming." I started asking everyone to RSVP "no" if they are not coming. This allowed us to start confirming that people were seeing the calendar entries, and not planning to come. This has been really helpful in our planning.

Main thing we did that would be a no-no today was cramming EVERYONE into a single shelter when winter camping. It was a great way to stay warm, but having done it for many years as a youth I thoroughly understand the logic behind the "within 2 years" rule of YPT. The information sharing was unfiltered.

this is what I was going to suggest. Make it an agenda item of your next PLC. Let the Scouts sort it out. They use methods and means you'll never get into anyway. And... they don't want you there. Be direct and make sure your SPL can reach their ASPLs and PLs somehow. That's up to them to figure out and may entail a number of methods. I doubt a one size fits all will work anyway. I know my own son almost never checks emails. I know some scouts don't even have a phone, some until they are in their teens. Others are not permitted on discord. So I think your youth leaders are going to have to sort out what works person to person. A lot goes on in the hallway of school too. Leave it up to them, but make sure they have a means and use it. Also be sure your SPL knows how to reach you best and maintain YPT. My SPL likes to use text messaging with me, but he always copies another leader too or his parents. Prior SPL preferred email. I think whatever they prefer is ideal. You should change with them.

Coleman 6 person domes are $85 right now on Amazon. They are tanks in my experience. But... when the waterproofing fails, it does so in spectacular fashion. Our Scouts like buying their own tents, so we have allowed "at your risk" use of personal tents. It's been pretty cool. Scouts love it. They get to see a wide variety of tents and styles. Takes some cost pressure off the troop as our inventory is for "fallout" cases and new scouts who haven't invested yet. But at $85 on sale... coleman 6 man domes are unbeatable IMO. They can withstand a literal flood and the rigors of regular Scout use. They are tall enough for a Scout to stand in to change and comfortably fit 3 Scouts. I've seen 6 go in one for the night (no gear) so ... it is possible They are easily serviced - you can get parts and shock cord easily and cheaply. It's a pain but thrifty. The only thing we don't bother with is serious waterproof failures. We just keep the poles and stakes and retire the tent. We'll often cut the bottom out for footprints. The leftover poles, shock cord, etc. have given us enough spare parts we never buy anything.

our troop is only 20 years old. I tasked our historian with this and was surprised that one phone call to council got him a list of the SMs from the past 20 years. So... our council had that much. Beyond that you will probably be challenged because people disperse to the wind. Our first two SMs are sadly no longer with us. Would definitely call council, they should have some amount of history for you.

If you have a good relationship with the SM - just ask them why. It's not technically a YPT violation as long as 2up and no 1:1 but it's a bad look and officially all aspects are open to observation so if a parent pressed the issue they'd have to relent anyway. I suspect they are having issues with parents who can't let the Scouts do their thing and rather than single someone out or maybe out of general frustration they went "scorched earth" on who can be in the building during meetings.

update: Our council is now charging $25 for MBC registration. To cover the CBC. It's understandable, but will def impact our MBC roster council-wide. I guess the "good news" is that it seems to be ensuring the people who are left are really motivated counselors. My recent experience is when a scout uses SB to "connect to" a MB counselor - they get rapid contact back. So, that's pretty awesome and possibly a silver lining.

My unit was at one time 75 scouts strong. I absolutely see the wisdom in BP's suggestion of 32 max. We are at around 40 active scouts right now and I feel 100% there is no way I'm able to adequately get time with each. The saving grace is we have a strong Scoutmaster Corp and really well trained youth leaders (NYLT for the win) and so it works. Our unit has been "top heavy" - many years ago we received mega crossover groups from a pack. Those mega groups will all age out together, just as they came in together. We had 6 last year, we will have 5 this year. Next year we have 8 I think. Inbound has been weak so we're shrinking pretty rapidly. Part of me feels some panic. Part of me feels some relief and is at terms with the idea we might be drifting to a "right sized" Troop. I don't think it's about the number of scouts as much as what they are getting out of it. If you're all burned out and they aren't having fun and growing as people as a result and no "fresh blood" is around to give you a break... it's probably time to think about what's best for the Scouts. Don't let money and trailers be the deciding factor. Do what makes sense for the Scouts.