curious_scouter

Sometimes when you do what you enjoy for a job, it does not hit right. Sounds cool, but now it's a job and not elective and you must deal with every aspect, good bad or indifferent. Heck, as I step into the SM role - I feel this. There's more than I understood, and not all of it's fun. And that's just "one hour a week" Imagine 40.

By way of update, during Scouting for Food this weekend I happened to cross paths with the district advancement chair. Quick intro and description of situation and his feedback was "If you're the acting Unit Leader - act" He was totally understanding and fine. Good stuff, just as I hoped based on the feedback here. Appreciate the encouragement and direction. The saga of my paperwork holdup could probably be a book. It's not entirely fair for me to say or imply it's council's fault... I'm just saying it hasn't been processed yet. They work hard at council, I know it. My situation is a combo of initially losing the paperwork and getting lost in new processes and tools which will eventually streamline all of this but in the short term is slowing thing down as people learn the new tools and processes. I think there's a light at the end of the tunnel and recharter should provide us a sure bet if it's not resolved by then.

Yes, I plan to reach out an introduce myself and the situation tomorrow. I'm certain we'll find a satisfactory path forward and now seeing ... this should have been my first stop Need to start filling up my rolodex

Fair question. I submitted my ASM application in February, my council still has not processed it. We've been skating by because I'm still considered a "Den Leader" which does make me a registered leader over the age of 21. We've taken it up with council and the DE and three weeks ago the response I got (in person) from my DE was that council is aware of my situation bu they are doing "new paperwork first" so my "transfer" still has not been prioritized. We thought we had a better chance of the paperwork getting priority if it was done with recharter.

CC is fine with it. I'm sure the SM would be too, he just is not easily reachable although I do have an email out to him he should see eventually. I signed it today, but confirmed the Scout can easily re-print if needed. So, I think we'll "keep the paperwork moving" as suggested (prudent) and I'll double up on the advice here by reaching out to district/council. I don't know those persons yet, this is a good chance to make those intros regardless. Thanks as usual for the sage advice

"If I had more time, I would have written a shorter email requirement."

Our SM is away for an extended period (next 6 meetings we think). Like away-away, not just missing meetings. I am going to assume the SM role in the new year, and so with that in mind and the absence known I have been delegated most Unit Leader responsibilities like blue cards and SM conferences. But I am not actually the Unit Leader yet. Last meeting, I was approached to sign an Eagle application as "Unit Leader". I deferred the Scout until the SM returns. I do not see a provision in the GTA that implies this is something the SM can even delegate. It does say a BOR can't be denied due to a lack of signatures, but that implies the signatures are withheld intentionally and for some reason. There is also some mention of a letter of explanation being attached if there is a discrepancy that needs clarification. I don't want to frustrate this Scout with "red tape" but I also do not want to cause him issues with this very important application. Anyone face a similar circumstance? Right now, I am holding off until the SM returns but if a letter of explanation would suffice I'd like to let this Scout get the application in. They are not at risk of turning 18, but are understandably eager to make this important step. That said - they did know about this absence and for exactly this reason. There is a lesson here if nothing else.

We're trying these: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Cascade-Mountain-Tech-250-Lumens-Camping-Lanterns-including-3-x-AA-batteries-per-lantern/672927847 I picked these because they have a frosted globe, which diffuses better and blinds less. Can can hang/tie them in any number of ways and they are $5 each and come with batteries lol. My personal favorite was this energizer one: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Energizer-Rechargeable-LED-Lantern-with-Micro-USB-Charging-Cable/311235219 I got one to try (on sale for $21 at Walmart right now... I do NOT get a kickback ) and kind of love it. For the price, I am keeping it for my own use. I love that it's flat, so it fits well in my gear setup and boy howdy - it's bright. Tie this up in the dining fly and you think it's daylight. But also has other modes.

We gathered up the Scouts and adults at the last outing. We discussed lighting options. Option1: Make it a patrol issue to figure out. Option2: Provide a lantern in the patrol boxes. Scout consensus was - they wanted at least a lantern in the patrol boxes. We then asked: Propane or LED? Scouts: LED. Propane's a pain, they break easy (mantles, glass) and we think they are a little dangerous, especially for the younger scouts. They aren't as portable either if we only have the big tanks. Ok. We then broke out the box of lanterns the adults had brought from their "personal collections" and demonstrated them all, discussed pros/cons. They ranged from the cheapie slide out LED lanterns up to $50 1000 lumen rechargeables. We let the boys try them overnight Saturday and on Sunday... We then asked: What did you think? Scouts: Having a lantern was great. We liked this one best, and think being able to replace the batteries quickly is a bonus. They picked the cheapie LED ones, so we got them for $5 each at Walmart this week and a pack of batteries that will likely last us the rest of this year for less than two propane splitters. They fit easily in the patrol boxes and ... they really do a fine job of lighting the work space. Problem solved? Time will tell

After drifting away from it, our PLC has set "Return to Patrol Method" as a goal for this year. We bought more stoves and refreshed the gear, building patrol boxes that have the same contents so every Patrol can operate distinctly and without disadvantage from another. It's a great start. And it's been working great, but ... on outings I think us adults have sidestepped a part of the Patrol Method that I think maybe the Scouts "just get". Here's the crux: A patrol "should be" 6-8 Scouts. We went with 10, to improve the odds that 4-8 would attend outings. For meetings, this has been perfect. Outings, it's a mixed bag. We (adults) have fallen into the practice of looking at who signed up... and then forming "operating patrols" from them. We have 5 patrols, last outing we had turnout like this: 6/5/2/2/1 So we smooshed them into two "operating patrols". It worked fine and they managed well, but two interesting things happened that kind of opened my eyes and has lead me to the philosophy that "A Patrol is a Patrol". Thing One: A scout in one of the 2 person patrols rolled into camp, checked in with the SPL, unloaded their gear - including a cooler. I was nearby and he was not grubmaster for either of the "patrols" so I approached, "Hey bud, why the cooler?" He was at the last meeting where we split up into these two "operating patrols" and did menus, duty rosters, etc. But... his response kind of blew my mind in a good way. He said: "Well, we're doing Patrol method right? It's just me and Johnny from my Patrol. So we talked and since it's just us two we grabbed food from the pantry at our house. I made sandwiches, he's bringing the soup." Huh. Thing Two: "Operating Patrol 1" was essentially the 6 person patrol with the 1 loner and "Operating Patrol 2" was the 5/2/2 setup. Friday night the Scouts set up their area in the dark, so it wasn't until Saturday after breakfast that I got to walk the camp in daylight. What I saw was another big moment. They had split into two Patrol campsites, but within those campsites - they were 100% sub-grouped according to their actual Patrols. Huh. I thought a lot about those two moments since this weekend. I'm a reader and a studier, so I decided to go read up on how to handle this kind of the per the Patrol Method. I am finding there's not a lot out there about "What is the Patrol Method". Even the handbook has only 3 short mentions. At first I was frustrated by that, but now I'm thinking: It's because it really is that simple. Probably the best thing I found was a quote from B-P: “My ideal camp is where everyone is cheery and busy, where the patrols are kept intact under all circumstances, and where every patrol leader and Scout takes a genuine pride in his camp and his gadgets.” —Lord Baden-Powell, Scouting's founder Only 2 boys from a Patrol going? That's fine. Let them sort it out. Let them do it together like story #1 - which is fine. Or... let them make the decision to seek another Patrol to partner with for the outing. But... let the Scouts sort it out themselves the "right way" - go to the SPL, get them to help you partner up with another Patrol or just go Patrol-Patrol directly. Either way... I am fully confident if we set expectations this is how we operate - the Scouts will manage it. I went around to our other leaders last night and discussed this and the fact I planned to put a stop to the "operating patrol" concept for a trial run. By and large the only concern seemed to be "what if only 1 boy from a Patrol shows up - they need to be with someone for buddy system" and "it'll be too expensive / impractical for a 1/2/3 Scout patrol to do much at an outing food-wise" To the first point - I do give some weight. But also feel the "solution" to that is in those cases the 1 person patrol just has to be near another. Close enough at least that they can watch for each other and yes, we follow the buddy system regardless of Patrol size so that person is almost definitely going to need to partner up with another Patrol during the day or plan on being in camp a lot. But... the push from other leaders is to enforce that with a "no single scout patrols on outings" policy. I'm on the fence. I think we need to give the Scouts some room to see what they will do most of the time in that situation before we make assumptions and build rules we don't need. To the second point - those two scouts that just sorted out their menu, their plan, and agreed to raid the home pantry tells me... a patrol of two can be super resourceful and thrifty and I have zero concern on that point. In fact, last night I had a SM conference with the "cooler Scout" and said, "You know that we have stoves and gear for every patrol. You guys planned sandwiches, which is okay, but you would have had access to a full kitchen setup on the trailer if you wanted." It's all new, so no - he didn't know that, and he said that had they known the two of them definitely would have cooked meals. So... even the prospect of "just two" would not have held them back from having eggs and more interesting food. And I get this because the adults have agreed to operate as a patrol and set an example and on our very first outing in this model - it was just two of us. He and I made our plan, we had great food, we used the same stove and patrol box as the Scouts, same dining fly, heck we even had steak for dinner and we did it for $12 a person - just a nudge over our $10 per person goal and mainly because... we really wanted steak. So... I am currently convinced that small patrols on outings are a-okay if that's how that Patrol wants to operate on that outing. BUT - if they do not want to operate that way, it is up to them to partner with another Patrol. Even if you smoosh them together - they will naturally gravitate to their "small patrol" groups anyway. So let's not fight it, this truly is the natural instinct of our youth. I'm going to Kaibosh this idea of "operating patrols" for the next few outings at least and see how it pans out. But... I thought this is a good place to sanity check this and to see if/how this has worked for others and if there's anything I should be aware of which I haven't encountered yet.

All the distribution posts I see go right on the 20lb tank and have 1lb ports coming off. Anyone split a 20lb tank to something that uses a "regular" (sorry I'm not an expert on propane and propane accessories) connection like a barbeque grill, a blackstone, or one of the camp chef explorer dual burner type devices AND lets you put on a distribution post that we could securely mount a coleman style (mantle burning) lantern on? I only see these kind of distribution posts / trees: https://www.amazon.com/Flame-King-FK-DP2PC-Distribution-Lanterns/dp/B099VY1GLZ/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=propane+distribution+tree&qid=1667395694&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIzLjUxIiwicXNhIjoiMi45MyIsInFzcCI6IjIuODIifQ%3D%3D&s=lawn-garden&sprefix=propane+dist%2Clawngarden%2C111&sr=1-4 The main issue is we need TWO "regular" connections now - one for our stoves and one for this pole. We tried a splitter, but the pole does not rest on the tank so you can't secure it well. We're going to try to "engineer" something with the splitter, but I wondered if a splitter would work and if anyone on here has a solution to suggest. I looked for a pole with a pass-through port but did not see any which leads me to believe that the pressure needs are so disparate between the coleman stuff and "regular" stuff that it's just not a thing. I suspect we're into "splitter" territory.

I think a lot of this might be summed up as "going through the motions". I know this year in our Troop has been transformative because we've hit that generational shifting point in some leadership - both youth and adult. I think sometimes troops get into a rut. They do the same-old-same-old. Maybe the Scouts think that's what they are expected to do. One case in point, at the final PLC of last year the Scouts were planning the last meeting and it was a Court of Honor. It was also one of the first PLCs I had attended. When I said "What do you guys think about doing it at a pool or the bowling alley? We can do the awards and then go have some fellowship" it was like this total shift in the room. "We can do that?" Well... honestly I was so new I didn't know for sure... but it sounded fun to me. I said "I mean... as far as I know... you guys can do anything you want that we think we can reasonably afford or orchestrate." Maybe look at the routine and see if you can break it up. I feel like this has helped our troop a lot. This plus a focus with the PLC on "intentional fun" has helped a lot. "If it doesn't sound fun - make it fun somehow... or don't do it. Do something else." It's been helping with our group this year. Some meetings are still "meh" but by and large the feedback has improved a lot this year.

Welcome!

This was my first year helping in the annual planning. I think keeping it simple, letting the Scouts take the lead, and having the adults engaged primarily to sanity check cost, logistics, and safety is the key. For this, we asked 3 adult leaders to attend - the rest agreed to "proxy" to those three. This provided decent sanity checking and avoided having too many adults around to interfere with the Scouts' discussion. We did not seek further approval after that session. No plan survives first contact anyway. If we had gotten "committee approval" for the plan, we would have felt obligated to re-seek approval when our original plan for November's outing fell through and the SPL had to pivot with the PLC to an alternate plan. Asking your SPL to present the plan to the committee has merit IMO. Not necessarily "for approval" but for "here's our plan". Gives the SPL some adult association, a chance to receive some well deserved positive feedback from said adults, and gets some adults spun up on the plan and in a position to attend or help if needed. Might suggest this next year.

Getting help is hard. Things I have seen help ... with getting help: Ask for SPECIFIC help. Sit down, be thoughtful and document some of your needs before asking for help. I've seen it when someone stands at the front of the meeting saying "Uh, we need some help" On the off chance it does motivate someone I've seen too many times where the volunteer goes to the CC only to be asked by the CC "So what do you want to do to help us?" The volunteer goes glassy eyed ... they don't have the first idea how a unit runs and what it needs. So you're going to get something like "Gee, I don't know..." and then they both agree to talk later after giving it some thought but often never do. Be Prepared to accept help. With specific needs. With an understanding heart that new help means they get input and you have to hear their ideas. Get to know your adults and then Recruit the help directly. General appeals are ineffective. Need someone to plan the blue and gold? Ask people you know who would be good at that and then go ask someone specific. Get a no? Move on and ask another specific someone. Play to people's skills and passion. When you make general appeals, you get scatter shot results. "I need someone to do Pinewood!" Someone comes up, but they are notoriously busy at work and gone for business travel, you have concerns they can actually take this on but... now what? Accept the help and risk either a bad outcome (bad for program) or having to take it back and do it yourself just to get it done (bad for you.. burnout) OR say no and turn off a potential repeat volunteer forever. Set expectations early and often. One reason Tigers requires adult partners IMO is that you hope/expect them to stay engaged after. Keep that expectation going. I don't love it, but another tool is the "100 point form". We rolled this out with success but for us the key was we set expectations that all parents in the pack should submit one, we also did not go around hassling those who didn't. We took the positive reinforcement approach "Many thanks to so and so who is going to do XYZ" Thank people often and publicly. A new Cubmaster I worked with made it a practice to have at LEAST one adult shout out during announcements every week (we met in a single spot with all dens). I think this had a TON of benefit. I don't think people volunteer for the glory ... but knowing it is appreciated and giving them credit is high value. Letting other parents know the benefit they are getting from the effort of others is also a very effective motivator. Saying "Thank You" is really simple, but very powerful. Never say no or defer accepting help. This goes back to the first bullet though. Always have a backlog of things you can use help with. Have a very specific job to start a new volunteer off with. Once they finish, they will often hang around for the next opportunity, but if you don't engage a person the first time with that specific need - they often walk away and are HARD to get back.

Here there are also limited options for pack overnighters. We are fortunate though that the council camp is open for packs and checks all the boxes and there is also an Elks sponsored youth camp - they have more facilities for cabin campers, but a very nice open area with a bathhouse that makes it suitable for our Packs. Most state parks also meet the bill and many have group camping (here). There is a small cost to most of those options, but even the highest (Elks) is like $2-5 a night. Hope you find a spot, I was on committee when our Pack was around 100 scouts, it was a definite mixed blessing. Lots of helping hands, but we pressed the limits of meeting space and camping spots hard. Even pinewood derby had to have really, really good planning to not turn into an all-day affair. Starts to feel more like running a business than a pack at some point

Summoning this thread back from the dead to solicit updated feedback. We are diving back into patrol method and I want full patrol autonomy including a dining fly per patrol. What poles / tarps are people using with success? Wood poles are best. Time tested, durable, easily repaired/replaced. I don't know if we have trailer space for them. We have 5 patrols. I also would like to have a no-trailer option if needed. Conserving trailer space is a goal, being able to fit patrol rainfly poles into mom's car is desireable also if we can't (or don't want to) take the trailer. What size tarps have worked best? What material have you used with success? Poles: I have these for my own use: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09M88RCWY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I like these, they seem sturdy. They are kind of expensive and I have concerns about the telescoping / locks failing long-term. To buy 6 for a patrol (I know you can get away with 2, I want the option for a patrol to "stretch" on their camp craft foo) would be $120. About the cost of a popup, if they would LAST it might be worth it. But seems on the expensive side. Looking at cheaper/modular ones on Amazon also. Mixed reviews, but you could buy 3-4 extra sets for the troop trailer and replace sections vs. entire poles. Allows patrols to make taller and shorter poles to create several 2-6 pole setups based on what the patrol prefers - giving them a little more to think about and try out. can support 32/47/63/78/93 inch tall options. 6 poles for a patrol for this would be $70 and between our 5 patrols we'd have enough extra segments to repair between the kits for a long time... I think? If they are any good at all. Will probably buy a set just to see and hold before going full bore, but curious about real world experience with this sort of pole. https://www.amazon.com/SANLIKE-Camping-Collapsible-Stainless-Replacements/dp/B08CSKJHXK/ref=sr_1_3?crid=5K6SU6I9AR37&keywords=heavy+duty+tarp+poles&qid=1663858001&sprefix=heavy+duty+tarp+poles%2Caps%2C72&sr=8-3

Agree with @Eagle1993 on burnout and Den Leadership. Be a Den Leader. It's awesome. You get to be with your scout and their buddies. I miss it so much. Cubs was such a great time but burnout is real. Being prepped and ready to meet the challenge of thoroughly entertaining a group of boys almost every week for YEARS See how that goes before loading up too much else on your plate. But it's fun. And it's hard. And if you're really into it too - it's like... even better, but also even worse Use your past knowledge and experience, but man... prepare to be humbled too. You've probably forgotten about more than you realize and today's scouting is different than "back in our day" so there is a LOT to re-learn. Take the trainings. They are pretty good and get you a long way on the re-learning path. Accept help. From every parent. Heck, expect help. Some of my best friends are the parents of the Cubs in my Den. If you set that expectation early, and accept the help offered, it will pay dividends. Do Your Best applies to you too. Life gets hard. Not every Den Meeting's going to be one for the record books. Don't beat yourself up, you will usually be your harshest critic.

Is there an option to 'remix' the adult roles so you have more in a committee role? If you're very small and have more than 1 ASM consider asking some/all of them to transition to committee. You can probably get away with less ASMs (or none) easier than less committee, especially if your SM allows higher rank Scouts to take a lead and sign off on advancement at a certain point. If you end up being able to grow the committee more later and people prefer wearing the ASM badge, you can shift again.

Yeah, distance to Scout Shop's a thing. Once you get the uniform and get to know some folks, I've found it pretty easy to ask "anyone going"? Making the trek for the uniforms is almost mandatory so they can try them on. Side benefit here at least is MOST of the patches you'd have to buy and then get sewn on are already on the uniforms at the shop. I might drive 900 miles if it meant 10 patches are perfectly affixed on purchase I know you're not in Patches-on-shirts territory yet, but will be soon and it's worth it (my humble opinion). Buy them big when you get to that point. I've used ScoutStuff.org / ScoutShop.org periodically too. They are very good, relatively fast shipping (not Amazon prime) and I once received a damaged handbook and they replaced it right away with no questions. Outside of the fact that returns are harder and shipping is not free, it's a decent option.

@qwazse - thanks. I needed to hear that, some of the responses here are downright mean spirited.

On here, perhaps. There are enough fillable PDF templates out there from a dozen+ sites that plenty of others do it. As I started creating my own little library, I was wondering if someone on here was as OCD/crazy as me and had already gone down the path and pre-filled the requirements listing for a bunch I haven't yet. That's really the hardest part. I use 3-up template (3 cards per sheet) vs. the 1-up template so save paper (thrifty) but it requires me to manually type every requirement 3 times and get it right. If Scoutbook will print a card like below (dates aren't needed - that's an example from the group MB day just to save some writing) with the requirements already listed but not signed that would be awesome. I could not see how to make it do that.

It only auto fills the ones that have been signed off. I can't print 20 pre-filled camping MB cards so I have them to hand out when scouts ask.

Our SPL actually just sent me this month's PLC agenda and on it he has a specific line item to discuss with the PLC about "expensive" outings. His definition is anything where the outing fees (excluding Patrol food expenses) are more than $20 per scout for the weekend. That's probably a decent standard to shoot for honestly. Next month PLC wanted a canoe trip, that'll be $30-$50 per Scout due to canoe rentals mainly. By this definition this is "expensive" November they asked for a pretty cool but expensive excursion which with bookings and transport fees will be $200+ per Scout. Some are suggesting we do an alternative on the same weekend that's not "exciting" enough that those with the means for the other outing would not go, but to have something for everyone. We are in Florida so a few of us ASMs are kicking the idea of offering to shuttle boys up to Georgia to experience some cooler weather than we get and to focus on campfire cooking for the weekend - we're looking to book into a scout camp or similar for $5 a night or less per scout. Our troop is large enough to support two separate outings I believe. But the second outing is largely motivated by the one-two punch of a canoe trip month followed by a real stretch outing (9 hours driving each way + cost) December we're looking at a free campsite where we do a wilderness survival weekend, so that's very thrifty and I think the boys enjoy it. January we're looking at a group campsite that's free except a rental processing fee of $12, so another very thrifty outing. For that outing the site is along a major hiking trail so the talk is those of us with an itch for a backpacking overnighter would get dropped about 8 miles away, hike a few miles Friday night and make trail camp, get up Saturday AM and finish at the "base camp" meeting the main contingent mid-morning. Another thrifty outing, but fun. The backpacking outing might be scuttled though as it's open gun hunting season in our state at that time and on-trail camping may not be permitted. There does not seem to be an intermediate camping area open for the hunting season. So it may be a straight hike OR we might not get to do the hike. It's a bummer because the only non-hunting dates on that trail here are also SUPER FREAKIN HOT. So we were really hoping to book a hiking excursion in the cooler months (we're in Florida). February we have crossover weekend with the Pack, but it is 3 boys this year (maybe) so we're talking about options. Usually this is at a youth camping area and is "thrifty" but honestly, not super fun. But since it involves the pack we need all the cub-required things like running water, etc. With only 3 maybe we can swing soemthing more exciting, but I doubt it. The entire Pack likes to be there and although there are only 3 AOLs right now, there are 50+ in the other dens. March/Apr/may are open but we have eyes on a very popular county park that's going to push the $20 per Scout per weekend (we are finding down here even the group sites are $$) and another state park with a spring (rare to have a "safe" swimming spot in Florida) for Apr/May but again - even the "group" camping down here is above $20 per site. Calling around this year I saw a sad trend which is a lot of the springs in our area that previously had youth group camping have been handed over to private concessions companies to run/manage and they have phased out youth group camping altogether. So our options for fun hot weather outings (which is much of our year) are a lot more limited or require an investment (canoes) to be on the water.

I started creating files for common MBs using the PDF fillable template. As I was doing camping and cooking MB today I wondered if anyone out there had already created a pre-filled set for themselves they would be willing to share.