Eagle94-A1

On paper I'm a committee member, but in performance I'm an ASM. I'm working on that because I've been doing ASM work, since June 1st, except a brief spell when injured.. I would like to add a fourth reason why NSPs do not work: lack of cohesion, homogeneity, whatever you want to call it. What do I mean by that? The NSP came from 5 different dens in 3 different packs over a 6 month period. Each pack and den did things differently, and began the transition to Boy Scouts differently. Different sets of expectations of Boy Scouts, different sets of readiness for Boy Scouts. One reason why i think oldest's patrol did well as a NSP was because the process to transition started when they were Tigers. I showed them what Boy Scouts was about on a camp out that had Scouts. When they became Webelos, my replacement took over where I left off, and they began acting like a patrol. By the time Cross Over came, they were chomping at the bit to be Boy Scouts. One reason why guys were let down by the neighboring troop and came to the troop my son joined. And the reason why I realized this: The Boy Scout told me this.

I admit, the troop has a long way to go still. In fact, one of my friends suggested looking for another troop already. But from where we've been, to last nite, IS a giant step in the right direction IMHO. (FYI, all caps will be emphasis and not shouting.) We are going with the traditional, pre-1989, mixed aged patrol, so TGs are not going to be a POR. Game plan is to put more responsibility AND authority on the PLs. As mentioned, the patrol method IS contrary to our society's expectations. Let's face it, we are treating 26 year old adults as children still, and unfortunatley they are acting like it. My thoughts are to give the youth high expectations, so that they will perform to the best of their abilities. THEY ARE CAPABLE OF DOIGN THE JOB, EVEN IF THEIR PARENTS THINK OTHERWISE! Let's face it, I learned my lesson last year when son was elected SPL as an 11 year old Tenderfoot! SM and an ASM want him to run again for SPL. He wants a break after being a TG, but will run for PL if the guy in his patrol who he wants to be PL wins election as SPL. "Somebody has to take care of them (the new patrol mates)." As for training the PLC, We got a retired SNCO ( not the one who has caused problems) who is working on combining ILST and stuff he learned and taught at the SNCO acadamy. Basically more initiative games and emphasis on servant leadership added into the training, stuff they need. The goal is to STRENGTHEN the PLC members and not weaken them. Give them the authority and responsibity, let them make their mistakes and use a guided apporach to work with the PL and SPL to improve. And by guided, not commands and directions, but asking questions and letitng htem think of solutions. By 'screwing up" I mean not having a meeting plan, i.e. skills instruction, schedule for the camp out, getting information out in a timely manner, etc. The adults are hoping that after having last election where folks voted for their best buddy instead of who is most capable of the job, the Older Scouts will be elected into PORs. Game plan is for the PCs to work with these older scouts, who in turn will work with the rest of the patrol. Me personally, I think that once the Scouts realize the shackles are off, they will do VERY well. Regarding the current troop TOE regarding an NSP ASM and venture ASM. My troop growing up didn't have ASMs assigned to patrols. Scouts did all the work. When I was PL of the NSP, , if I had a problem, I went to the ASPL or SPL (remember, this was pre-1989 and we were guinea pigs with NSPs.) With those troops I've seen use NSPs, the ASM is OVERINVOLVED IMHO, and is treating the NSP more as a Webelos III than a Boy Scout Patrol. One reason I had such a hard time working with the NSP. I know I've crossed the line on occasion with the NSP. One reason why I pushed for both responsibilty AND authority, it can with some of the issues I'm seeing.

A bit of an update. Leader's Meeting There was a leader's meeting last night prior to the Court of Honor. I was only able to attend a few minutes as I had to sit on Boards of Review (don't ask, I've been in a SA position, but still registered as MC). Anyway from the outline the SM created, and basically told the other adults "this is how we are doing it," this is what will be happening effective May 2nd. 1) Each patrol will be assigned an ASM as patrol counselor, and that PC's job is to train, mentor, and advise the PL. Other PCs, as well as ALL of the leaders' jobs will be to keep an eye on each other and make sure we don't turn it into Webelos IIIs. 2) PLC members, and select others, will go through training to understand the importance of their newly given authority to sign off on advancement. 3) The adults will be expecting more out of the PLC; we won't be "saving" them when they screw up. Boards of Review The 3 Scouts I sat on BORs for were all in the NSP. When asked what they would change, all said nothing because we are getting rid of the NSP after camporee. Court of Honor EXTREMELY PROUD OF THE SPL AND THE SCOUTS! (emphasis, and a wee bit of shouting at the top of my lungs ) This was the first time the Scouts had any say in how the Court of Honor was conducted. All I did was hand the SPL several copies of COH scripts, told him to look up some if he wants, and use it this week making sure he shared it with the SM. Ok did the SPL do research, NO. Did he ask which script to use, YES. Replied with, "you're the SPL, you're in charge." Did the SPL ask who the MC was going to be, YES. Did I repeat my reply above, YES. Did he make some mistakes, ABSOLUTELY. Did he learn from them, I SURE HOPE SO. Did he do a great job for taking charge for the first time. YES HE DID.

I had a Scout teach portions of IOLS, because he had the knowledge, skills, and abilities to do it.. Great instructor. When be turned 18, the new district training chairman, who worked with the individual on the IOLS course, refused to sign him off until he completed the course. Sometimes it sucks to be the "leader's kid," having to worry about the leaders showing favoritism. And yes, once he completed IOLS, dad did sign him off.

I don't know who used the term Parour Scout first, but an audio recording from the 1920s has BP using the terrm. Going off on a tangent, when has that NOT happened , But wife got me a book called LEFT OF BANG about the USMC hunter-scout program. Not very far into it, but a lot of it so far is observing and being aware of your surroundings to ID threats.o reminds me of BP's yarns in the original BSHB.

I admit I volunteer for my own selfish reasons. One is I want my boys to have the same opportunities for adventure that I had. Another is that I am a Scouting and outdoor addict, to the point where during Cubs, the wife kicked me out of the house to go camping wiht the OA or a troop because I was going through camping withdrawl. Finallly I feel an obligation to pay back to the leaders I had by continuing their legacy. As for Eagles being unlearning what they have learned, I agree. I say the most difficult transition was from Boy Scout to Scouter as opposed to Cub Scout Leader to Boy Scout Leader. I was worse than a jerk for a while. But going from Boy Scout leader to Cub Scout leader was a bit of a challenge too. Still wish I took a picture of my 5year old Tiger wearing an ALICE pack on a camp out. I should have named him " Helpless Turtle.

When the heck did they add the 2 year thing? Grant you I'm glad that a brother and sister can share the same tent now, we have a set backpacking, and they are a backpacking buddies.

Well, we had to adapt for teh weekend trip, couldn;'t get the enough permits to do the area we wanted. Plan B is national forest, and we definatley want the spray. Wife, dad, and friend were hiking a trail in the area, and encountered bear,.

Just wait until you try to find info on the website, and I'm a librarian who can make most databases dance on a dime. I think one of my Cubs could do a better job doing the coding for that website.

Wanted to give a quick update. Looks like the police report will be useless for documentation. Apparently someone else claimed to jump in and do CPR on the victim. I'm not happy, wife could care less, but my friend with the police department is TICKED OFF (both emphasis and shouting on his part). He's madder than a hornet's nest because A) the people who deserve the credit are not getting it and B) it's falsifying a police report. But because it's not anything major ( EMS was able to revive him and send him to a hospital) it's not worth the time or energy to correct it.

All this talk about sheath knives, Why do I want this knife for bushcraft?

AMEN! I admit I was a horrible ASM at 18 and 19, to the point where some of the Scouts, including a few friends, wanted to quit when I was the "lead ASM" since I was at summer cmap the entire week, and the other adults were in and out. Thankfully the SM at the time went though the same problem with his Sea Scout ship, and was able top correct my course. "Unlearn what you have learned." Yoda.

Back in the day, we paid monthly dues instead of weekly dues. Started at $2/ month then moved up to $3/month. That $24-36 covered registration, BL, and some troop supplies. However we did fundraising with some money going to Individual Scout Accounts ( I know not allows) that we could use for dues, and activities, but the bulk went into troop operations. The Pack my younger sons are in charges a lump fee, although you can spread it out over 3 months. I'd take spreading it out over a lump sum anyday. Way it worked for me, and oldest now, dues are HIS responsibility, and he needs to pay out of his allowance.

Sorry, scribe not QM. My brain is fried after work today.

AMEN!

That may be a very good one.

A few thoughts. 1) for AOL, you "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old. (Being active means having good attendance, paying your den dues, and working on den projects.)" So unless he's 10.5 at the end of 4th grade, he can't earn AOL. Now my tale. My son has a late birthday. He will be over 10.5 when June 1 hits. He was seriously thinking about skipping the Webelos badge and going directly to AOL so he could cross over in June and go to summer camp with big brother. When it was pointed out he would be in the NSP and when his buddies joined 6 months later he would be in a different patrol, he decided to stay in the pack. Regarding Mixed aged patrols and new Scouts. Way it worked in my old troop, the "expereinced" scouts of ages 12-14 in the patrol would buddy up with a new scout and mentor and mold them. It was usually people's first time doing servant leadership. The PL would pick out who would work with whom. When we eventually got a feeder pack, we would buddy them up at the meeting(s) before the webelos overniter so they could get comfotable with the patrol. Then on the cmapout they worked with the patrol. GREAT RECRUITING TOOL

Way it workls in Son's troop is patrol QM collects money, fills out the patrol dues envelope, and turns in the envelope tot eh troop QM. I don't know if the patrol QM's keep copies of the deposits. I know the troop QM and SM keep records. Some Scouts will not be getting their awards Monday until their dues are paid, becasue that's where teh $.25 / week goes to. And awards aint cheap. 14 MBs and ranks was over $30!

$52/ year in addition to the $24 registration? $76/ year. What do the Scouts get from it? I know the pack I'm with charges $60/ year without Boys' Life and $72 with. Money is used for registration, wards, supplies, etc. My son's troop is $.25/week plus $25 for registration and insurance and an additional $12 is you want Boys' life. Going to go up some, $.50/ week to cover expenses.

In the situation I'm referring to, it is a trained ASM who is an Eagle, and hence SHOULD (emphasis) know better, and in fact does. But when it comes to his son, he thinks he knows best, and BSA is messed up. Don't get me started on that one. Long story short, a lot of the problems started when his pack and troop folded, and he transferred over to us. Maybe that's why his pack and troop folded. sad thing is, the guy has a ton of knowledge, skills and abilities. he can be a vital asset to the troop, IF he would learn some patience and learn to stay out of the Scouts way. I think I may use some military analogies on him he may understand. The Scouts are the "grunts" in the field doing what they are suppose to be doing, or doing their best to accomplish and learning from their mistakes, and he's being the REMF, who is screwing things up and frustrating the Scouts.

In reference to the type of patrols, i.e. Traditional vs NSP, I think it depends on the situation. Yes you heard me, It depends on the situation. How did I come about this, talking to a Scout. Chatting with son, he commented how he thinks there may be a possibility that we could go back to NSPs, or putting them in patrols of 5-6 new scouts to 2-3 "older" Scouts, and have our current older Scout patrol reform as a venture patrol. I asked him why did he think it would work this time, when he it's not working now? He said that the NSP he was first in worked OK, and that was because 1/2 came from 1 pack and the other 1/2 came form another, and both dens had some interactions with each other via day camp and council camping events. So it was easier to work together. BUT the current NSP is much different. Members come from 4 different packs (5 different dens since 1 moved up early). And wth that many differences of how Scouts should be, its causing a problem. And thinking about it, he's right. My son's NSP did have a lot in common despite being in 2 different packs. Both started the transition process as soon as they turned Webelos. Both packs had interaction on the district/council level activities, mostly due to the fact that one pack essentially split form the other, so the leaders of both packs were friends. But the current NSP is a conglomerate. Some of the guys had minimal interaction with one another at district and council events, so they didn't get the chance to know each other prior to joining. And the transition process varied.Two packs started the process to transitioning to Boy Scouts beginning of the first year as Webelos, one waited until 1/2 way through the first year, and the 4th didn't begin the transisition until 2 or 3 months before Crossover! that many differences will cause chaos. Then add in ineffective TGs, and it makes it worse. I always said being a SM or ASM is an art and not a science. One size does not fit all. But most importantly LISTEN TO YOUR SCOUTS! They know better than the adults what is going on, who are strong leaders and who are weak. BUT YOU CAN'T INTERFERE!

If an adult won't listen to another adult when asked to stay out of the Scouts hair, I doubt the adult will for a youth. Now if the SM said it, I would hope so.

One reason why my troop is going tradition patrols versus NSPs. BUT you gotta keep the adults from butting in

If that is true, and upon reflection it probably is, then I see why the troop I'm in folded a while ago. The Eagle I've been discussing in the other thread was an Eagle just before the troop folded. So if he is modeling what he learned as a Scout, and if the situation in the troop does continue, then I do see the troop dying again. I remember a troop growing up that was entirely adult run, specifically SM run. Yes the PLs and SPL were elected, the patrols selected meals and did duty rosters, but the SM was the puppetmaster, and the PLC his puppets. I admit, they looked good, won lots of interpatrol/intertroop awards at summer camp and camporees, etc. But the minute the SM stepped down, the troop declined and eventually folded within 6 months. No adult could do everything the SM did, and the youth could not do squat on their own. My troop was not perfect, we had our issues. But we were Scout led. When our SM backed out of a lot of stuff due to work and health, the Scouts really didn't notice. Heck I didn't find out he had health issues and stepped down for 4 months after he had resigned. And I only found out when I talked to him about my Eagle COH! That was the type of troop I was in. We had a "paper SM" and none of the Scouts realized it. It was announced 2 months after my ECOH at the Christmas COH/ recharter time.

Yes they are. TG, SPL's approval, has backed away somewhat because they SHOULD be able to do things without him. His goal this weekend was to have them do things for themselves, make mistakes, and grow from it. Here's the funny thing. Saturday until dinner was no problem. Issues with KP that the SPL resolved. THE NSP WAS GETTING THINGS DONE! Then the morning KP fiasco and the adults jumping in ruined it all. Agree, the SPL and/or the SM should have jumped in and dealt with the ASM. I hate to say it, but IMHO our society is not teaching kids to be thinkers and leaders. In my experience Scouting is the only youth organization that does it. And right now I and the troop are failing the Scouts Actually dad relented, and gave the son the choice of going to camporee, or going backpacking with dad to scout out our May trip since that weekend is the only weekend dad can scout the trail. Let's see, going to camporee with events that are beyond the abilities of the scouts in my patrol, dealing with adults bugging the heck out of me, and being miserable OR doing something I love, backpacking, with my dad and scouting the trail for the troop. No brainer. Dad and son are both frustrated and have been for a while. There has been talk of switching to another troop that does more backpacking. And while he is a leader, he is a dad first. Actually it didn't last long. The decision changed to "patrol counselors" mentoring the PLs. I have mixed emotions onPCs. Only 1 troop I was in used it effectively; the PC advised and mentored the PL, and worked to get another leader for patrol camping if the Scouts wanted another camp out. The other one had some challenges (not as bad as this though). But the troops I've seen using it, it appears to be Webelos III. So I have big reservations on it. I agree with giving responsibility and authority to the Scouts. I've seen it work, know it works, and want it with this troop. And I have also seen what happens when you do not give responsibility and authority. We have 1 troop dying, and this troop has the potential to die. Part of the TG's goal this week, and really the entire month, is to show they can do it without him. And it was working until the adults butted in. Was it working perfectly, no. SPL and TG had to intervene once this weekend, until the Sunday KP fiasco. Tell me about it. It got heated. Asked me to name 1 scout who could teach a class decently. I named two within the past year for wilderness survival and backpacking. was told those weren't basic skills. My next question was this: HOW DO THEY GET THE EXPEREINCE IF WE DON'T LET THEM TRY (emphasis, ok maybe a little loud voice cause to me it's obvious.) EXACTLY! We have some great youth. are they rough, yes. Do they need some mentoring and advising. Absolutely. BUT THEY DO NOT NEED US INTERFERING AND GETTING INTHE WAY (emphasis) Yep. I know. I'm screwing up too. I keep trying to get the adults out of their hair, but this one adults keeps blazing in. We need to get the adults out, but I need to convince the others to do it that way. Regarding reorganization, we are trying to instill in the older guys "servant leadership," and "it's time to give back to the troop," and "You need to work with these guys to keep the troop going and doing more than the same old same old." As for the Mrs., trust me I'm listening. I had a brief thought that if they troop becomes "Webelos III" I might as well go back to the pack and help them since they are starting to struggle. BUT then I realized who would stand up for the Scouts against the adults trying to ruin the program?