Eagle94-A1

Alas no, my family did not decline. Two of middle son's fellow Webelos were in the camper. They and youngest basically had a slumber party. Wife and our friends probably wished they were outside with a all the giggles and talking that occured. I'm cool with it though because all four Cubs just had a campout 2 weeks previously Switching gears a tad. I was told the troop will revert back to NSPs in December instead of keeping mixed aged. Made a comment to the SPL that he needs to keep all of my pack's Scouts in one patrol, even if it's a 5 man patrol, and not mix others into it to keep the dynamics. The Webelos did a stellar job on that camp out, and the one the month before. They did all the cooking, cleaning, setting up, etc with just a few reminders on both camp outs. Oldest saw them in action at Webeloree in March, and told me he thinks they will have no problems when they join the troop.

I think I scared off Youngest from backpacking. Don't know what happened between when The family left for their trip, and when I met up with oldest, but he doesn't want to carry everything on his back as it's too heavy. I think he tried oldest's pack on, and at approx. 28# it was heavy. As for middle son, he prefers "glamping" in a camper. One of the other Scouts family did the same thing my family did, leave early and have some family time. But they used a camper. When the temps dropped to near freezing, my family was invited into the camper. Trip went well. Scouts did a great job, and I think learned a heckuva lot of stuff. I know I relearned some things I've forgotten. Only think that irked me to no end was the neighboring group left their fire going after they left. took us about 20 minutes to put the fire out having to make sever trips to the stream to get enough water to do the job. Why can't people be careful with fire? On a different note, the troop was complimented by another group for how well we left the campsite, as well as for putting out the fire. They were on the opposite side of the group that left the fire going, and saw us putting it out. Guys did really well

I must respectfully disagree as I channel KUDU. Reprint the 3rd ed. SMHB volumes 1 and 2. From what I've been told and saw in a later SMHB Green Bar Bill, all his other SMHBs are condensed versions of the 3rd. ed.

Yeah we had a WEBELOS (emphasis) who did 40 miles on the AT with Mom and Dad. While a Scout, he taught classes on backpacking gear and backpacking cooking. Long story short, he was disqualified from the backpacking cooking competition because 'we can't allow professionals." And yes, there was no left overs with his dish Actually SWMBO has loaded their backpacks with some gear and has been hiking them around the neighborhoods with Oldest so that all 4 of them could get ready for this weekend. THANKFULLY I was able to convince Middle Son he did not need his vintage, metal first aid kit with the spray can of local anesthetic. THAT KIT WAS HEAVIER THAN MINE!!!!!!

Not YPT, but Hazardous Weather. While I was able to see the certificate, I was unable to print it. I did a screen capture to show I completed it. Regarding MY.SCOUTING.ORG, I will quote the Second Doctor, aka "the Hobo," "You've changed things. HHHMMM, I don't like it." It is not user friendly at all, and trying to get to some of the online training was a pain. Only good thing I can say is the search engine is better that scouting.org's one.

OK understood. Sometimes I'm dense. Well the A.L.I.C.E. I have the son using have been modified. It has the M.O.L.L.E. belt and newer, wider straps. Lot more comfortable than when I used it on a regular basis. I admit I love A.L.I.C.E. but it's been on 2 of my three 50 milers, a NSJ and WSJ, my European Camp Staff adventure, and a host of other campouts. But I do realize it's dated, lots of improvements and tech since it was created 45+ years ago. And after this loading up the car for the wife to go camping with the 3 hoodlums while I slave away at work, I need to start investing in backpacking gear. Trunk was maxed out, and the kids will have stuff in their laps.

All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment specifically the Field Pack - 8465-001-6480 - medium on a frame. I've found the Medium A.L.I.C.E. can do double duty as a weekend backpack and a canoe bag. Especially ones with the quick release straps. They can attach to the thwarts. Some thing I tend to NOT want to remember. On my second backtracking trek, I was overburdened with gear to the point my frame broke, specifically the area where the hip belt was. I made a trump line with rope and necker to help ease some of the weight off the shoulders. it helped.

I woudl not call them "unofficial knots" unless they are new knots, i.e. NESA Lifetime Member Eagle Knot. I would call them "REPRODUCTION KNOTS" ( emphasis) sicne at one time BSA did make knots on a white background, navy background, and kelly green background. Don't know if they made them in a light blue background for Air Scouts or not. I have 2 sets of white reproduction knots for my Sea Scout whites, a set of navy repros for when I either get a Sea Scout Centennial Uniform or service blue uniform, and I just got a set of green repros to go on my Exploring shirt. I would have sewn on the VENTURING strip when they were handing htem out in '98, but the shirt had faded a tad bit and the strip would be VERY noticeable.

I didn't know about Hikerdirect.com when I got my wife's sleeping bag. She loves it BTW, and my oldest steals it from her on occasion, like this weekend, because A) it's cold or B) compression sack. I did use hikerdirect.com for son's birthday present, a Mystique 1.5 tent. http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/tents/lightweight-tents/mystique-15 I hate to say it, I've used it more than him, and love it. Borrowing it for the weekend backpacking trek. As for backpacks, we got these for the youngest two when they were on a Back To School Sale for about $40 each if I remember correctly. http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/packs/day-packs/solitude . They use them on the car camping trips and are really well made. I used it when we went on vacation last year, carrying a day's worth of food and drinks for 5 people. Comfy. Now I admit, I'm partial to USGI surplus. It use to be cheap, and "If it's designed to survive combat, it may survive Boy Scouts." But looking at some of the hiker direct prices, WWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW! May I take a moment about Alps Mountaineering customer service? 1 word: AWESOME! Father-in-law knew son wanted a tent, but couldn't find a decent one locally. I told him about Hiker Direct ( at the time ScoutsDirect) and he told me to get the Mystique 1.5 for son. They told me on the phone how long it would take to get it shipped, and it would be a day late. I was good with that and had an plan. I told ALPS thank you, and how my son will love his birthday present when he opens it up. Long story short, they processed the order that day in order to ship it so that he could receive it for his birthday! THAT'S AWESOME CUSTOMER SERVICE! And no, I do not work for ALPS nor own stock in the company. EDITED: Looking at these for oldest; http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/packs/internal-frame-packs/red-tail-4900 or http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/packs/internal-frame-packs/caldera-5500

Going to post something positive for a change, and it's the result of my Wolf. He asked me yesterday when can we go backpacking as a family. I told him he's camping with his mom this weekend. He said, "I know that, but I mean backpacking like you and [Oldest] are doing." Looks like I need to either upgrade Oldest son's pack ( 37L with no hip belt) and let wife use the A.L.I.C.E., or get wife a new pack, and let Oldest use A.L.I.C.E. Plus I am going to need to get some more backpacking gear to cover a 5 man crew. Thankfully we got 40L Alps Mountaineering packs last year for the younger two when they were on sale. I love corrupting my kids!

Well, son did surveys last night. It looks as if not everyone did one, but the ones he got are interesting. I asked him if I could read them and he said yes. They are all over the place. The older Scouts clearly see the problems and for the most part were honest. Although I do think they held back. But part of if was that several put their names on it, which was optional. One older scout without a name ( he shared a pen with a named Scout, hence telling he's an older scout) was very honest. Glad he was One was downright sarcastic. Don't know who it was, but that was probably the most honest one. In it's sarcasm it shows how screwed up the troop is. One of the younger scouts doesn't see any problems. But there was one Scout who thinks the adults need to get more involved and help. While I think I know who it is writing that, I do not know for sure. On a different note, I was polite and professional. Only group I worked with was the ones prepping for the AT. Only time I got involved with another den Patrol was to pull a Scout out who needed to be doing the shakedown since he is doing the prep trip. One of the ASM's thought that since I worked with my son packing, he's good to go. Yes, but I want him treated like everyone else. If the group is shaking down gear, he needs to shake down gear.

I'm going to concede on the back history. You're right, it's not something I need to know about. And since oldest would want to transfer instead of starting from scratch, I'm going to hold off talking to the UC about if his church could support a troop again. Regarding the SM, it's a delicate situation. He's been involved with the troop over 40 years, has been SM for over 20, with a break when the troop died, and singlehandedly restarted the troop. Nobody has the heart to tell him "NO MORE" including his wife, doctor etc. As for the area I was thinking of, there is currently no troops there or the surrounding area. Hence one of the reasons I was thinking about going there. I just don't know if there would be support for a single troop. As for working him out, that may happen. He's already involved on the district level, so that won't work. I really do not want the last option because I do not want to lose those Scouts. I think they would quit before asking to join a different patrol, especially since the adults were the ones that set up the patrols. At the moment Son wants to change the troop. I do what he wants. He want the PLC more involved, and he will be working towards that end this weekend camping with the SPL, a PL, and the "influential Scouts" as he calls them.

My UC was the one I recruited to be CM, then the SM, of the pack and troop Gunship was in before coming to my troop. Also he is one of the lay leaders of the chartering organization, and was serving on the committee when the troop folded. I know he wasn't as active a leader as he would have liked, but his company has exploded especially with their overseas customers. But he would know if the reason was Gunship or really they couldn't get parents to step up to the plate. Also he would know if the church would be willing to restart the troop if a new sucker, I mean volunteer, was willing to restart the troop. As well as what equipment and resources the CO still has. On a different note, talked to son some more. He really wants to try and solve this troops problems before giving up. Told him I'd do whatever it takes to help him out, and put up with anything as long as he's happy. Then the bombshell. He said he wouldn't' want to start a new troop, but go to another troop that friends from the home school group are in. I told him he would need to pay more of his share, because we couldn't afford it. Good news is that the troop IS Scout run. Bad news is that they do a lot of expensive trips.

I'm in the process of coming up with a game plan. Some of this is coming from the son. Some is what I was thinking about doing, and some from folks on this board. 1. Talk to the Older Scouts next weekend. The backpacking trip will consist of an ASM, let's call him Frustrated, and myself as well as his wife and my pack's CC whose son is going backpacking. Level Headed will be dropping his Scout off, so the Older Scouts may talk, especially since Gunship won't be around. EDITED: Frustrated and Level Headed are the #2 and #1 Leaders the Older Scouts will go to, even before me. I "talk too much" 1.A. Talk to the UC about why Gunship's pack and troop at his church folded. Aiming for Friday IF he's in the country or not. 2. Since plans have to be revised for June, there is a triathlon where we are scheduled to go, come up with a survey of what the Scouts like, don't like, and want to do to improve the troop. 3. PLC and comes up with game plan using the surveys. 4. Ride herd on adults and see if Gunship actually leaves or not. 5. If things continue going down the sewer, talk to SM, CC, IH and see if they can get aboard the plan. 6. If they can get aboard the plan, go Patrol Method. If not, leave 7. Talk to my old den about starting up a new troop with the disgruntled Scouts from current troop. 8. Inventory and fund-raise as needed to get new troop gear 9. USE THE PATROL METHOD!

This quote is hitting home. I don't know what happened, but something occurred between the packs leadership and the troop's leadership when Gunship was a young ASM. Gunship blames the pack's CO to this day on the death of his troop. The Webelos were not even visiting the CO's troop, visiting another troop instead. In fact, he still has some feelings against the other troop, although no one remains from the time period. But I know for a fact that a troop using the patrol method without a feeder pack can survive on it's own. My troop didn't have a feeder pack before I joined it, nor for 6 of the 7 years I was a youth. So What was the real reason the troop folded?

@Qwasze, Yes, I think it's an idle threat and/or a way to get some sympathy from the new leaders who just crossed over from Cub Scouts in the last 6-12 months. I've been busting my butt mentoring one, but now he's teamed up with Gunship, and I've heard some comments from him agreeing with Gunship. Patrol Method is "organized chaos" but it works. Best example of that is the Older Scouts in the troop. @@desertrat77, Don't know if I'm Eeyore or Cassandra. However I feel like Yoda in Episode V when Luke goes off to Bespin. I don't think I'm being listened to, and the hand that Luke was dealt came off badly (pun intended) @@Beavah, That is my worst fear: destroying the troop. Up until recently the troop was good. Yes they had some problems, but it was getting worked on. It is a slow process changing a troop's culture by doing it right, via the PLC. I've had some handicaps regarding the troop, specifically working with Cub and then when I stepped back from Cubs the accident, plus not being a member of the CO, but it was starting to change. Then Gunship's troop folded, and his Scout joined us. That is when the negative changes started. And it has gotten worse over time, culminating with the last two weeks. All, If I was to "start" a troop, it would really be RESTARTING one. Gunship's troop and pack both folded because he could not get enough leaders in their area to get involved. Again I have contacts with the CO and could probably get them to support restarting the troop. But I know I would tear the current troop apart, and there will be animosity for years to come from Gunship and a few other leaders, especially if I get the pack restarted. Now part of the problem as to why the pack and troop folded, I blame on council. In the push to increase units, they pushed for a new pack and troop to be started in an area that Gunship's pack and troop was recruiting from. Having a small pack, plus a newer, small pack recruiting from the same area is bad news. And eventually both packs and troops folded within 5 years of the second pack being started. But one thing has been on the back of my mind. The troop I'm currently in folded while Gunship was an ASM. He got deployed overseas, and the troop got restarted. Gunship took over as CM of a pack his youngest was in, and served as an ASM for the troop his step-son was in, both with the same CO. Both pack and troop could not get enough leaders to keep them going. My question is WHY? The CC/COR didn't want Gunship involved with the troop as a leader. There is a history between the two, and all of the ASMs ( including me) thought it was because of the history, and wanted Gunship involved. IH actually approved the application, and sent it forward. The common denominator is Gunship. Then the second-hand comment I was told by the Webelos DL, " You don't want to be in a troop with [Gunship] as a leader" is making me wonder.

Had another chat with Oldest. He doesn't want to give up on the troop yet. He wants to try and change things via the older Scouts and the PLC first. BUT he is now agreeable to starting a new troop if needbe b/c I told him that in all likelihood his 2 best friends, the rest of his old CS den, and probably a few others would follow suit. And I need to change Naysayer's handle to something different, more inline with his personality. He's not a helicopter parent, who doesn't get involved except to hover, he gets involved, and involved heavily. He's more of an AC-130 Gunship, always aloft and ready to rain down fury when he thinks he sees the need. So let's refer to him as Gunship.

@@Krampus, So true. I'd actually take you up on the TX offer if it wasn't for the mother-in-law. We as a family are thoroughly enjoying the normalcy while we can. But a relapse is on the back of our minds all the time.

Back. Anyway, Level Headed and I have some concerns. At the moment, neither one of our sons want to leave the troop due to the Scouts in the troop. But with the lack of patience, the way he took over a patrol's planning process, was influential in reassigning the patrols, and commenting on how only half the troop will be able to go canoeing, I see the troop falling apart and fast. I know my son has commented on how the best scouts are all in one patrol. He doesn't like that the Scouts had no input into patrol selection. At least with the original plan for the troop reorg, the PLC decided to pull names out of cup at random. I was told that while I was working with the AT Scouts, only 5 scouts from the other 2 patrols said they were going on the planned camp out with the troop. I know the comment about 1/2 the troop going on the canoe trip in August worries me. When I mentioned what about the rest of the troop, I was told they could either meet them on the river, or do something else. And i know that one of the dads has some concerns because we are not using the patrol method. His son is one of the plankowners in the troop. He was losing interest until he started teaching Scouts. Now it looks as if the Scout is losing interest. i know part of it is no Philmont trip. But part of it is the adults taking over. Now Naysayer ASM did make a comment about leaving after the AT trip because he's had enough. Don't know if that was an idle threat or not. I personally don't think he will follow through. He's had a long history with the troop before it folded.

I had an interesting 2.5 hour phone conversation with the Level Headed ASM, and the situation IMHO is worse than I thought. The ASM I've had issues with above is not happy with me not only because of my views on how the troop should be run (boy led) and advancement should be done ( select youth (PLC members and a few others) able to sign off on advancement are opposite his, but also how I discussed the performance of on of his former Cubs as PL of the NSP, and how he really needs to step and be a leader, even if he no longer wears the PL patch.NSP PL would not listen to TG, and actually was one of the trouble makers. I sat on his BOR ( which I didn't want to do) and asked some very pointed questions about how he did as PL. ASM didn't like that because Tenderfoot doesn't require POR. Anyway I found out that as the ASMs were picking patrols and assigning ASMs to work with each patrol, ASM above made the comment "I CANNOT WORK WITH [EAGLE94-A1]!" Hence I'm the floater. Level Headed ASM also commented how the SM is starting to lean more towards the Naysayer ASM (Sorry @@Beavah, but that or negative is the only way I can ID him now), which has the Level-Headed ASM seriously concerned. Not only is his son in the patrol that Naysayer is in the ASM for, but he sees the potential for the troop to split apart over the naysayer ASM. One ASM, the one I'm backpacking with next week, already pulled his son out of a camping trip when the naysayer ASM did the menues, duty roster, and shopping list for the patrol and told them that since the patrol was having so much trouble doing cooking and KP,. he woudl wake them up at 5AM so they would finish everything on time. I think I already mentioned that Naysayer ASM told his son, who was suppose to do KP, that he had to pack and take down his tent as soon as he finished breakfast? But I didn't tell you that the Scout said he couldn''t do cooking or KP Sunday morning because dad said they would interfere with his quartermaster duties. More later

Interesting conversation tonite at roundtable. Long story short, the Webelos Den leader of the pack that my troop charters tell me that we should get all 12 of his Scouts. He still plans on visiting troops to make sure his scouts find troops that meet their needs though. HOWEVER, he also told me that one of the Bear dads knows the ASM above, growing up in the troop with him back in the day. He's commented that if the ASM is invovled with the troop, he will not send his son to the troop. This is going to get interesting. Going off on a bit of a tangent, WDL was telling me how his older son is having a better time in the troop now, mostly because we were letting Scouts teach for a while. I told the WDL that my son joined the troop because of him. My son has that scout on a pedestal because of his work at CSDC when my son was a Webelos, and because he ran the meeting my son visited, being given about 2 minutes notice he was in charge. Back on topic, I think I am going to use the lock in and backpacking trip next weekend to talk to the SPL and older Scouts to see what they want.

Unless national plans on making them, I don't see this happening. And last I heard, they are not making neckerchiefs anymore, only getting rid of the ones in stock. And none of my troops old neckers are in stock anymore. That's why they did the custom route.

Make sure to bring the coffee pot and cards.

I'm back. The option I suggested to him is that he runs again for SPL, and if elected do things the way they are suppose to be done. Grant you it's six months away from the next election, they just did them Monday, but I am putting the bug in his ear. @@Beavah Yes, I helped trained him. I trust him, and I'm willing to let him lead the way. I go where he goes. But with some of the adults now in the troop, I need to quote one of the internet memes I've seen, that actually features one of my Eagles. "We got your six covered." Yep that meme with the 6'11" Marine LT carrying a guy in the backpack, both armed with M-4s has one of my Eagles in it. They didn't call him BIGFOOT for nothing. EDITED: I have a bad feeling that one of the adults would sabotage things if my son, or any Scout for that matter, would try to change things that he disagreed with. The troop decided to make custom neckers using triangular bandages, custom patches, and his embroidery machine. To make it easier, the embroiery was just going to put an edge on it and sew the patches on.. Long story short the ASM really doesn't see the need for neckerchiefs, and doesn't like to wear them. The goal was to get enough neckers for the youth for the court of honor. Didn't happen, Next we were going to try and get them for the camporee, 2 weeks after the court of honor. It didn't happen. And yes, this is the ASM who is being a challenge.