DuctTape

I think this is where advancement as a method is perfect. Advancement is the scout's, having activities and adventures to allow one the opportunity to fulfill requirements means the scouts need to take responsibilty to ensure it happens, and of course the higher ranks require a position of responsibility in addition. Advancement becomes a motivator to take the lead in planning, organizing, and executing. So what does this look like in practice? At the most basic level it could be this scenario... Johnny comes to you and says I want to get signed off on requirement x. You ask,

I am with qwazse on this. The POR are not all necessary. Of there are only 11 scouts, there is at most two patrols. There is no need for an SPL and/or ASPL to help them plan and coordinate. Assuming 2 patrols, the PLC is the 2 PLs and their APLs; 4 scouts. No need to add another person to oversee these 4. If they are young, perhaps a more senior scout can help mentor the PLs to engage with each other to develop the program. Is there a PL training process embedded within the structure? Who trains them?

I am sure they would say they do, but there are many obvious places where they do not. Case in point: summer camp merit badges staffed by kids and the adult mB counselor simply signs the cards without any interaction with the scouts. This contradicts the adult association method.

Efficiency is not simply cheap and/or fast. It is also focused on the true goal and mitigates that which veers away from said goal. We have our aims and mission to be implemented via the methods. We need National/Council/District to support the methods to achieve the aims. Thus: Proportional resources dedicated to all the methods of scouting. The books , training (youth and adult), policy and decision making. Presently advancement appears to be the purpose and not just one of the methods as the the other methods are not just downplayed, but completely contradicted for the sake of advancement.

when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. the problem is too many businesspeople trying to run non-businesses like a business.

and it's never "a scout's own" if it is required, planned, organized, and/or executed by an adult.

I agree in principle. The how and when though is not obvious to many. First if the PL is struggling with "setting up a tarp", I immediately wonder what the older boys who know how are doing at that moment. If it were at a troop meeting, the PLC decided on that activity, did they have an instructor ? if no older boy was available, then they could have planned to have an ASM demo. If it were on a campout, then I wonder why the PLC didnt plan to instruct this at the prior troop meeting, or again where are the older boys. If none are available, then I might ask to see the PL, and away from his pat

I agree that is what those courses are for. But, the curriculum at IOLS and SM specific (i haven't done wb) do not even come close to addressing the development of boy-led, patrol method scouting. Before gaps can be filled, the core curriculum needs to have this fundamental concept at its core operation, not just words. For example at IOLS. Instead of the module on woods tools with the participants "acting as a patrol" to learn the totin'chip skills. the module should be 1. what does the boy-led patrol method look like when scouts are learning and using woods tools, 2. what are the roles

I think we are all on the same page here, it is only the inhibiting medium of interweb forums vs sittin around a campfire which allows for a more nuanced discussion.

Four days is plenty to respond with: "Thank you for bringing your concern to our attention. I will put this topic on our agenda as new business for our next committee meeting on (date/time/location). As always parents are welcome and invited to attend our commitee meetings. I hope to see you there."

I read those stages as the individual stages for a scout, not the troop. So I agree with you Barry, that an older troop has the older boys as the main role models etc... But I disagree that those stages are only in new troops. Older boys as the main role models and leaders is consistent with the boys being 3-5 years older and in stage 2 or 3 of their scouting career. The first year scout is focusing (in general) on core basic skills as taught/modeled/etc.. by the older boys and in 3 years that new scout will be the older boy continuing the cycle. Or perhaps I misunderstood the sta

I always punt my response to a face to face discussions. Email is for: sending/recieving documents setting up appointment date/time thanking someone after the meeting It is NOT for: discussions So for this situation, I would reply to the scout's email with: "I am happy to provide some guidance and clarity with the cooking merit badge process. Will you be at the next scout meeting? I will arrive 10 minutes early to give you my undivided attention. Please let me know if this works for you. I can also be available at other times if this date/time is

Wisconsinmommas post reminded me of something more... Often the boys don't know what they are really missing. As I said before the Patrol Method is also a goal, so as a means to get them "out of their rut" this non-boy-led idea can help. Offer to be their camp cook (and cleanup) if they go this really cool spot you found. Keep the backpacking distance and terrain easy, and make awesome food (which is still easy to make). The boys will learn of a new location, and see a new awesome menu too. They might take the idea and run with it. Another thought. Often the simple menu is not

I think the same idea can be used albeit much heavier lift. I often share with my scouts the adventures beyond the car. Photos and stories go a long way. Another is to find a really cool spot when day tripping from the car camp. The hidden campsite off trail near a waterfall for example. Then the idea of camping at these other locations becomes the goal. Instead of looking at the question as car camp vs backpacking, instead it becomes "destination". Then how do we get to that cool spot might require backpacking or paddling. Another idea is to go with another dad and his son (the 4 o

The Patrol method in my opinion is also a goal. What I mean is, looking at any of our descriptions are there areas where we can improve ie more cohesive patrol/less troop, and/or scouts doing more/adults less. When I list all the things we adults actually do, I also make a note of which could(should) be done by the boys. If the PL isn't ready to do it, I need to get him trained up. Ultimately the only items that only adults can do are things like driving and legal contracts and such. From what I have experienced, the more cohesive the patrol, and when the patrols do activities instead of just

I am guessing "patrol advisor". If ot is an adult, that is a sure way to have it run like cub scouts. If it it a scout "troop guide" then the conversation should only come from the SM (or ASM)

or if the scout were a Jehovas Witness whereby their religious doctrine prohibits such "pledges", or a multitude of other reasons.

IIRC, one of the reasons for the BOR back in the really old days was for boys to gain "interview experience" for when they were job seeking. To help them become comfortable with strangers asking them questions about their experience, and accomplishments.

I do not disagree. Reading your other post about how you train is excellent. However, I still maintain that using the term "adult led" is wrong, especially when linked to "boy run" as it makes a specific distinction that the youth are NOT to lead... that is the adults job. I like the final quote you posted above.

How? if the adults are leading then by definition the youth are following. https://scoutmastercg.com/where-is-it-written-that-troops-are-boy-led/

Welcome to the forum. I like your spirit.

The only big issue for me is the focus on advancement as the goal instead of a method. This is my beef with any of these events whether it in mB college, etc... Instead, imagine an event with scouting activities whereby participating in the adventure has the secondary result of fulfilling requirements for mBs and/or ranks. No classes, but adventure. Imagine a camporee where a telescope is available and after campfire, scouts have the opportunity to use it. An older scout shows a few how to locate and identify planets, nebulae or the moons of jupiter. Among a few other things. At the end, can

Has cubs changed that much since I was a kid? Our den meetings had just the two den leaders, no other parents. The same for all other den activities. It was rare for another parent to be around. We did not have that many whole pack meetings that I recall. Pinewood derby, blue&gold, i recall one holiday themed party. Everything else was den based with just the leaders. Perhaps that is why we transitioned to the patrol method so easily.

I also see the "it's adding to the requirements", when disagreeing with any decision or practice of the troop even when it has nothing to do with advancement. I think this is partly due to the (over)emphasis put on advancement. For many, it appears, advancement is the mission instead of a method.

not just stepping in to avoid failure, but even before with forced organization via schedules.