King Ding Dong

This is all so very vague. It seems to just say sales $ cannot be the sole criteria, but a unit could make it 95% of the criteria and include 5% other criteria. That may address the legal issue, but not necessarily the ethical one.

My son and I have been looking at the National Outdoor badges and award an it looks like a great worth goal, to strive for and will likely take an entire scouting career to complete. I am concerned about the meaning of "under the auspicies of the BSA". I have looked at the programs of many troops in my area and none have a program that would allow a scout to come close to earning the award. How is a boy to earn this if there is not a significant amount of boys in the troop that want to. The BSA states it is not for every boy, but shouldn't every boy that wants to earn it be allowed the opportunity ? Example riding, the distance requirements for the cycling MB do not require the presence of a patrol or troop or even the MB Counselor. However requirement 3 200 miles, that includes the distance of the MB must be "under the auspices of the BSA". Camping with a silver device is 125 nights in 25 night blocks with only 5 long term allowed. So that is 100 short term nights. Great goal, but again that means 14.29 short term nights per year for 7 years, no cancelations. I can't find any troop that has that kind of program. There are many that are very active, but they include other activities other than camping. (Like bus trips, cabin camping in winter, etc) and outside of summer camp, do not meet in the summer. I have tried searching for a definition of "under auspices of the BSA " and have not been able to nail it down. For cycling it seems reasonable to me that a boy could schedule a distance ride for a Saturday, get scoutmaster approval and invite anyone from the patrol and it would count. But what if no one else wanted to go ? Same with a patrol hike, camping, swim etc. There are not a lot of boys that enjoy distance swimming, how can a boy achieve 100 hours of swimming in a troop setting (required for two gold devices) What if his father, also a registered and trained unit leader, went along on the ride, swim or camping trip. Is that now "under the auspicies of the BSA". Seems like it would be, but what about the boys from units that do not have that advantage ? The award seems like an ambitious and worthy goal and a great exercise in meticulous record keeping. It just seems mathematically impossible to achieve strictly as a group effort. Do I understand the requirements correctly ?

I have made one thing clear with both the pack, troop and PTO : I will not be treasurer. It may not be as complex as it seems, but it just isn't my skill set. Sorry to hear how council has treated you. Not very professional. Good for you putting your foot down. My view is that there is a minimum amount of Pack activity I will accept. If the parents won't step up and do it, Council can find the volunteers to do it or I walk to another pack that appreciates my efforts. This is not a problem with the troop. It amazes me as troop activities take much more work.

Interesting idea. I am color blind so military service was not really an option for me. Also makes trail markers difficult, and faded ones near impossible.

There is not a standard size wall tent. That may work for the ones you use. That will not work in the ones two of the camps have near us. Last July it never got below 90 at night. If you cram the boys shoulder to shoulder like that, they will never come back.

I spoke to a district level friend of mine that I have great respect for. He explained we cannot reject a boy because of a failure of his parents. The whole punishing a youth for the failure of an adult thing. I get that. If it was just a few isolated incidents I would fine with it. When over half the parents will do nothing, I am not fine with it. When push comes to shove I suppose I can't hand them their check back, but I can look at the program we can offer given the level of parent participation and choose to participate in another pack. Unless someone steps up for popcorn this year, there will be no popcorn. That means no program and no pack. I know I sound bitter and that is because I am. I will give it a 100% for the first few weeks and see how things shake out, but I will also be scouting other packs.

Our troop does not use cots except at summer camp. They are provided at most camps. It may have to do with the relatively poor condition of the wall tents and inches per hour rate in which it can rain in our area and the topography of the camp sites. When it rains 2 inches per hour with already saturated soil it is going to pool. It would not be uncommon for the water to overlap the floorboards soaking all the gear. Even without cots the size of wall tents the camps I have seen it would be extremely difficult to fit three boys in one. We have some fit twin 16 year olds that are built like trucks. Might me able to get away with it some of the younger boys but then no place for the gear. No rain flys for the wall tents. This is a big country with diverse climates. Scouts in Arizona are going to camp differently than those in Washington, Alaska, Florida or Ohio or Southern California. It serves no purpose to ridicule Scouts for taking appropriate actions in the environment they will be in.

Thanks for all the input. Fortunately non of the boys will "need" the badge soon so I should be able to position competing it properly in a positive way. Rather than them looking for some counselor that will just sign it off for them. There is no need to start from scratch as they did do some work and everything can be done easily as a course of attending fall activities. The troop has some MSRs so they can get some experiences with a backpacking stoves as well.

People believe what they want to believe. When one side sticks ardently to a position that an individual eventually comes to recognize as just plain self serving bunk it can lead to a very critical questioning and likely rejection of everything else. This happens on both sides. The result is we have one political party the now has the reputation of hating science and another that has a reputation of hating religion. I don't believe either of these perceptions is in reality is true, but it gets played out that way on nearly every divisive issue. In the political arena the answer is not for one side or the other to win. The answer is to stop the gerrymandering of congressional districts and return to competitive races where the strength of ideas will hopefully win out. There will always be safe districts, but they should look more like the states themselves and not a cup of coffee you spilled on the floor.

My ipad won't copy out of that ppt but right after that quote it suggests other criteria such as "participation in the camp card program". So clearly your level of sales can impact the funds you receive. Just lawyers doing what lawyers do.

Ok. Learn something new everyday. We only sold two camp cards this spring so I hope we don't do hard time for that $5. I guess as IH I should be looking in to this. Crap, and we have several lawyers in the troop. The interesting part of that quote is "include other criteria than sale of items". I read that as sale of items can be one criteria but you must include other criteria. I am not a lawyer, I just play on the Internet sometimes. Anybody have any idea what other criteria can be used or should be used ? I can't imagine a troop committee is equipped to start evaluating every families financial need.

Great idea. Just make sure it is not a Scouting event and have an open bar. It will be a smashing success.

I agree. The Canadian and European model is much better. Your health insurance coverage should not be dependent on your current state of employment. People still get sick in between jobs. Duck.

I think BSA has a summer camp requirement that that each scout has 30 square feet of space, though I cannot remember if it is in GTTS or somewhere else. A 9x7 wall tent has 63. I don't think you could shove three cots in a wall tent. Probably there to make sure the camps have adequate supply of tents. Just found a thread that where infoscouter references it http://www.scouter.com/forum/camping-high-adventure/equipment-reviews-discussions/15025-how-many-square-feet

I have seen no rule against, but have heard that it is good to have the scouts at least 2 to a tent. Our troop allows solo, but ps with personal tents not troop. I have seen one or two go solo and they are also special needs so it probably best. Our troop also lets 3rd years use hammocks, though they tend to stay very close if possible. I read on another thread some camps like Philmont do not allow solo tenting. Something about bears more attracted to a solo tent. Not sure how he knows how many are inside, but maybe he can smell them. So I suppose in bear country it is a safety issue. I would always check local regulations and ranger advise. OA makes them sleep alone, correct ?

Just because someone made up some rule that all proceeds go to the general fund doesn't make it ethical, just or moral.

Your communication skills continue to astound me Stout. A sense of humor is also very beneficial in the workforce. I suggest you get one along with an ascot. The BSA has made official collarless Field Uniforms. An Official BSA uniform regardless of age is always considered official as long as it is in good repair. I and no one else has the authority to force a boy to wear a uniform. If you do, that is your rule not a rule of the BSA. I deliver the Scouting program as defined and provided by the BSA. What program do you deliver ?

Your flow of logic is the problem. Should a boy not join scouts and participate if he has no interest in earning eagle or even tenderfoot? Would you request that boy resign ? Advancement is just a method. Should a boy not join scouts if he has no interest in being a leader ? Leadership is just a method. The uniform is just a method. I have not seen the entire movie but how many uniforms are in the much praised Followed Me Boys ? Does a boy have to embrace every method of scouting to be a scout ? For the record my boys have and wear the complete official uniform down to the socks. Because I make them ? No. That is their choice. What purpose is served by forcing a boy to wear a uniform ?

I have not complained about the Internet. I stated no one "needs" to have Facebook. I stated kids do not need to communicate by using Facebook. You stated kids "have to have access to Facebook". Why ? I cite your post above as evidence why technology alone does not prepare children for effective communication in college or the workforce.

(As far as the uniform being optional according to the "Rule Book of Scouting", that's fine, but Scouting is optional according to the "Rule Book of Life." ) Two completely different subjects that have absolutely nothing to do with each other in the same sentence. I don't understand your point.

No one "needs" Facebook period. You appear to still defend requiring a Scout in your troop to violate the Scout Oath. So stout what troop are you with ? Inquiring minds want to know.

Hi! I'm a frequent lurker here, but as I have experience with GSUSA as well as Boy Scouts I'd like to comment on this comparison. I agree that you cannot equate the two organizations. The one thing that is true, is that the groups are organized very differently from each other, and have a very different culture. Girl Scout troops are not set up as Cub Packs or Boy Scout troops. That can however be a good thing. If there is no troop for your daughter, you can just start one -- no need to find a chartering organization or to set up an entire Pack for kids grades 1-5 and find den leaders for each den. After years of experience with Girl Scouts, when I first got involved with starting a pack in our town (none had existed for years) I was overwhelmed with how much infrastructure a pack needed; it seemed very top-heavy and took almost 5 years to get everything up and running, by which time my son was in 5th grade. If I had just been able to spend the equivalent amount of time on his den alone, he woudl have had a much better Scouting experience. As it is, because of problems getting the pack up and running, we lost many boys in his den and only ended up with 4. Compare this with our experience with my daughter's troop -- yes, it was only one grade level and not all 5, but we have been able to successfully run a great troop for her and 11 of her classmates and neighbors. I hardly think this system is "selfish" in that we are very open to girls at this level (although we do put a limit on numbers -- 12 seems to be a good size for a troop. If more girls want to join their parents are more than welcome to start a new troop, just as in Cub Scouts you start a new den!) In our Girl Scout Service Unit, girls who go camping do not camp with parents ala pack campouts. We leaders take the girls camping overnight, choosing to start in 2nd grade. We don't need troop tents or supplies because there are tents at the Girl Scout camps. If we want a propane stove, we just borrow one or bring our own. As girls get older and wish to camp in tents and use more specialized camping gear, we can rent anything we need for a couple of dollars each from our council for the weekend. The Girl Scout program doesn't have camping built in to advancement in the same way the Boy Scouts do, and as a result girls don't often go camping nearly as much as the boys do, but it's not because of lack of gear. The reason GSUSA is experiencing a decline in membership right now is that they have completely changed their program. They have brought in something called the "Leadership Experience" and "Journeys" instead of badges and advancement, and the girls and leaders are rebelling. Troops refused to do the Journeys and so National made doing one mandatory for earning the "highest awards" in scouting.... but what you actually do to earn the Journeys is almost completely up to you. You just have to say you have done one; the requirements are extremely vague. Girls complain that the Journeys are too much like school; they are also dumbed down. Agreed. I certainly like aspects of the GSUSA system especially at the younger levels. There is a wide gap between tigers and Webelos and adding lions soon is going to be a real challenge. Was talking to a 25 year Scouter tonight who just went to GS camp training. The things they make them do are nuts. Then again he reminded me that the BSA is not a camping program. It is sometimes easy to forget that camping is just a classroom and is well suited for many boys. Maybe less so for for some girls.

So help me understand what is ethical. Scouts sell popcorn in differing amounts, all proceeds go to general fund. Troop pays 75% of each scouts summer camp fee. Sounds like SOCIALISM to me! Lol.

I guess one boy just has to stay home. Not one of 19 scouts slept in the tents the other week, they all slept outside, by choice. I have not seen any National rule on two to tent either. I think the camp may have a rule that if you have 13 scouts they are not going to provide your troop with 13 tents. Sometimes adults just can't think rationally, happens to scouts also. So what is this adults plan ? Place the odd man out in a tent with an adult ? Violate the 30 square foot requirement and shove three in a tent ? Moron. Get him out of your troop and don't waste any more of your time with him.

I am not OA, but what is the point in severely limiting the adults in OA Membership ? If they don't want us, fine. I certainly don't want to join where I am not wanted. I have been asked by some members if I am interested for next year. I have 13 BS camping nights since April, if you count IOLS.