Twocubdad

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! This is a real hot button for me! There are legit reasons for leaving early, so this is about the "just 'cause" reasons, which usually relate to the parents' convenience or poor planning. We have three families (four Scouts) who very predictably leave campouts early. The one who really ticks me off is the dad who shows up unannounced Saturday afternoon to collect his son. He's well aware we don't like early departures so I think he's figured that coming unannounced means he doesn't have to hear about it and at that point there's not much we can do or say anyway. With the other two families, the dads will go on the campout the first night then make a big deal about "helping" their son "do his share of the work" so they can leave early. That just compounds the problem by having the dad in the middle of the patrol site interferring. Gutterbird, I rather doubt that the Scout is the one who want to bug out. My experience is this is usually a parent-driven thing. It would be most incredibly self-centered for a Scout to really say he wants to leave because all the fun is over by Saturday. Rather I suspect that is just a good rationalization he's heard from his parents. Problems with the parents need to be solved with the parents. You need to go directly to the parent and tell them they son leaving early causes problems for the rest of the patrol. No, there really isn't any way to "make up" for leaving early. There's a lot of work to be done and that it comes Sunday morning when everyone is cold/tired/dirty/sleep-deprived/grumpy, makes it that much worse. Let the parent know that they are putting their son in the position of being known as a slackard, which is a tough reputation to shake-off. That's not to say I'm not above putting some pressure on the Scout too. Peer pressure can be a good thing, so work through the youth leaders to make sure they know they will be responsible for shouldering this guys part of the work. In you best Scoutmasterly way, ask the boy how he thinks always leaving early reflects on being Trustworthy, Loyal or Helpful? How does he think his patrol mates feel about being left with his share of the work? And the real coup de grace, "We'll discuss this again at your next Scoutmaster's Conference and Board of Review." Then be sure you do.

Back in my old troop, Eagle presentations were part of our quarterly Troop Courts of Honor. We started with Tenderfoot and progressed right on through to Eagle. Everyone who had earned Eagle in that quarter was presented his award. The night I received my Eagle, there were a total of six Eagles presented. At the time, it was said to be a record for the Council. I never saw it as sharing the spotlight, rather it created a unique bond between the six of us. And Ed, I disagree with you somewhat. The Scout didn't earn his Eagle in a vacuum. He was most definitely aided by the leaders and other Scouts in the unit. The presentation should be a celebration for the entire unit.

What is the district commissioner doing? Is he or she behaving or is he/she part of the problem. Usually when one of the district "Key Three" (Chairman, Executive and Commissioner) goes over the wall the other two are there to fill in. Sounds like you only have one (or maybe none) of the three functioning. I don't have any references with me, but I believe the person responsible for appointing the district chairmen is the council chairman or president. The couple times we've had openings locally, I think he DE was usually responsible for doing the real leg work -- the council president's okay was just a formality. But if things are getting touchy and especially if the DE is AWOL, I would make a call to the council president. That's probably the formal route, more productive may be to contact the Scout Executive or the Director of Field Service, if you have one. The DFS is usually the DE's supervisor. My experience with district mergers isn't good either. We had a merger several years ago. The council had two weak districts which never met quality district goals, so they just decided to merge them in with two other strong districts. The results were both poor and fairly predictable. Scores of old-time volunteers saw the merger as a good time to retire including most of the commissioners and one entire day camp staff. The commissioner corps and the day camp attendance is still well below what they were pre-merger. The merger was the brain child (some would say brain fart) of a closed-door committee the old Scout Executive put together. He correctly figured that any change in districts would become very political, but incorrectly figured that developing the merger plans in secret would solve that problem. In the end, little changed, except the marginal elements of the old districts simply dissolved. The new districts were an average of the old. It's a trick school districts have been playing for years. If one school is performing above average and another below, shuffle the students so you have two average schools. No one learns any more or less, but the numbers sound better.

I agree. The SM in that troop has tried to convince me several times that we need similar regulations. But I don't want someone saying 20 years from now that they could have been an Eagle Scout but their Scoutmaster had this stupid rule..... Honestly, I think I'm more clever than that. I think we can get boys to slow down, enjoy Scouting and get more out of the program without resulting to rigid rules. Again, its about coaching and mentoring the Scouts to guide them along trail.

I look at it like a wedding. If I were a minister, I would accept a whole lot of input and personalization from the couple, but ultimately the ceremony is a rite of the church and there are certain standards I would insist be kept. If the couple doesn't want to accept the standards/restrictions of having the service in the church, they are more than free to go elsewhere. Likewise, a minister isn't required to participate any a ceremony which violates the strictures of the church. I see an ECOH similarly. As I posted before, I consider the heart of the presentation to be a troop function. It certainly doesn't rise to the level of a religious rite, but there are things we do which are traditions of the troop and make the ceremony meaningful. I don't consider the ceremony we do sacred -- in fact I would be willing to listen to most any change. I would insist that we maintain the degree of respect the ceremony deserves. If a Scout insisted on including something in the ceremony we consider disrespectful, then the troop would reserve the right to decline to participate. By the same token, the Scout can pick up his credentials any time he likes and have them presented any way he likes with or without troop participation. It's a double-negative arrangement -- either party can decline to participate.

I agree with what's been said. the organization needs to be more democratic, but I don't necessarily think the problem is volunteers vs. professionals. I see much more closed mindness among the ol' boy volunteers than with the pros. There's far too much empire building in the organization. Innovation and new ideas are discouraged. At almost every level the people and committees who make decisions work to surround themselves with yes-men. Organizationally, that's not healthy. I've worked with a couple council committees from time to time. I'm no spring chicken, but I'm frequently the youngest guy in the room by quite a few years. Where are the younger Cub Scout leaders and parents? The system of making Chartered Organization Representatives the voting representative to the Council is a joke. In the real world, most current-day CORs have arms-length relationships to Scouting at best. Our council annual meeting draws only a handful of CORs. Units should be able send someone who represents the people who really run the unit (whoever that may be) rather than the chartered organization. The organizational structure of districts and councils compounds the problems. If a unit has a problem with a particular program area -- let's say advancement -- who do they call. The DE? Program really isn't his area. The District chairman? He likely doesn't have much to do with advancement but can refer you to the district advancement chairman. But your problem is one for the council advancement committee. Of course the council advancement chairman is brand new and blah, blah, blah. Is anyone responsible for anything???

What happened to critique in private, praise in public? I don't think this rises to my idea of hazing (although it could); but neither do I see public humiliation as the best way to teach responsibility.

The short answer is yes. But not to put too fine a point on it, Webelos aren't precluded from Boy Scout camporee because they have shooting sports. The rule is due to the programs at Boy Scout camporees are generally not designed or appropriate for Webelos. Shooting sports is certainly a prime example of that, but there could be a number of other activities taking place which wouldn't be approved for Weblos. I don't want folks to get the idea that they can take their Webelos to a camporee if shooting sports aren't included.

Don't misunderstand the point that the prohibition is only against Webelos at Boy Scout Camporees, meaning more than one troop. Webelos camping with an individual Scout troop is a strongly encouraged part of the Webelos-to-Scout transition. The ban has been in place for at least 10 years. I think the rational is that activities planned for Boy Scouts will frequently be inappropriate for Webelos. Shooting sports, as mentioned, is a perfect example.

New Scouts cross over the end of February. Registration for sumer camp merit badges is April 1. A new boy who has been in the troop four weeks, less than half-way through Tenderfoot decides he wants to take at summer camp Enviromental Science, Communications, Emergency Prep and all three citizenship merit badges. You would be okay with that? It's the Scout's decision, right? I don't think that is anything remotely resembling an appropriate merit badge schedule for a first-year Scout. In addition to having a miserable week at camp, I've been around long enough to forsee the problems we will have down the road. My job is to guide that boy through the program in meaningful way. We're not adding to the requirements, rather we're coaching the Scout to help them understand the program and to make decisions based on good information, not just a desire to get to Eagle as quickly as possible. It isn't about having a list of "Thou Shall Not" troop policies, it's about sitting down with a Scout and helping him see the big picture and to chart a course that's in his best interest. I can only think of one or two occasions where I've had to say, "No I won't approve that." And every one of those times it was because the PARENTS were pushing the boy to take a particular set of MBs. Usually a friendly conversation to help the Scout see the full scope of the program and to help him set appropriate goals for himself is all that's needed. Yes, boys should advance at their own pace and decide what classes the want to take for themselves. But they don't do that in a vacuum. It's our responsibility to help the Scout learn to make good decisions. Another point -- Yes, I think most camps (ours anyway) make merit badges too easy. This is especially true with the academically-oriented Eagle required badges. If the requirement is to "Discuss XYZ with your counselor" the counselor holds a general, classroom discussion with all 20 kids taking the class. The boy who dozed through the discussion gets the same credit at the kid who was animated and involved in the class. That's not right and doesn't meet the requirement, in my opinion. The activity-based badges -- canoeing, archery, pioneering, etc. -- the boys are at least up and active and doing stuff. If you don't qualify at the rifle range, you don't get the badge. There's no hiding at the back of the class. The other thing summer camp, merit badge colleges and some troop "merit badge classes" short circuit is the whole area of the merit badge program which requires a Scout to take the personal initiative to contact a counselor, make and keep an appointment, prepare themselves and their material, and work with an adult who is an expert in the field. I remember working on Cit/Nation with Mr. Ivey. He was a high-end lawyer in town and unlike most of my MB counselors, was not a part of our troop. I really didn't know him. I had to call his secretary and make an appointment and go to his office in full uniform to meet him. I was scared to death. But it was a terrific experience. I had to meet with him twice. The first time we went through the requirements and he told me what he wanted me to do. The second time we reviewed everything then walked across the street to the courthouse where he gave me a tour, including introducing me to the judge during open court. All the other lawyers, defendants and cops are waiting while the judge quizzes me about Scout, school and junior high football. Where else do kids get experiences like that? Certainly not sitting at a picnic table with 20 other sleep-deprived Scouts and a 19-year-old camp counselor. Our troop leaders also agree that it's not asking too much of an Eagle Scout to put forth the extra effort on a handful of merit badges. To paraphrase JFK, we choose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. We want to challenge our boys. We want to make them stretch to reach their goals. We want to make them get the most they can out of the program.

Have you spoken to the boy's parents? What insight can they provide? Ultimately, the troop has a lot of lattitude in how it structures the BOR to accommodate a Scout.

Don't complain to me about Jimmy Carter. I'm a '73 Eagle and have Richard Nixon's signature on my Eagle certificate. I suppose different things have different meaning to folks. I don't really recall a Eagle wallet card, but if I have one, it's in a scrap book and I can safey say I've never shown it to anyone. But if it's important to you, fine. This may be important to you now, but in years to come I think you will see the value of your Eagle not in a card you show people but in the character of the man you have become.

W: While the other posters have correctly given you the by-the-book BSA advancement policy, I think the real answer to your question -- and how an experienced Scoutmaster handles boys in this situation -- is much more nuanced than the black-letter advancement policy. Looking for a Scout to show more maturity and a better understanding of the program is not a bad thing. How Scout leaders go about accomplishing that is another matter. I would hope the leaders in your son's troop are doing a better job of working with the Scouts that what you describe. Part of my responsibility as a Scoutmaster is to see that the boys in the unit I serve get the most out of the program. Part of that is making sure they advance at reasonable rate. Not too fast, not too slow. I want to make sure the Scouts have time to absorb the value of the program. A kid who is totally focused on advancement and blows through Eagle before he hits 14 isn't getting the most he can from the program, in my opinion. So what to do about it? One of the Uber-troops around here has minimum age requirements for each rank. I think it ends up that they require their Scouts to be 15 for Life, 16 to start an Eagle Project and 16.5 to be Eagle. That's just wrong. It's also unnecessary. As some of the other posters have alluded, there is an appropriate way to put the brakes on boys who are advancing too quickly. My preferred method is to disract them with other elements of the program -- Philmont, jamboree, OA. The tools of the trade are to control the merit badge process. If your troop is running a MB mill, and boys have 14 MBs before they hit First Class, the troop doesn't have much right to complain about an immature 12-year-old going up for Life. In our troop, new Scouts don't work on merit badges, period. If a new boy asks me for a blue card, I redirect him to his handbook and the requirements he needs to complete for his next rank. At summer camp new Scouts can earn Swimming and a couple of light MBs. Through the course of their first year they may pick up a couple more MBs as part of the troop program. This spring, for example, the whole troop spent six weeks preparing for a canoe trek, including a prep weekend where everyone learned to handle a canoe. I think we wound up with over 20 boys earning Canoeing MB, including many of the first year kids. As I mentioned on the thread about summer camp merit badges, we don't allow our scouts to earn Communications, Personal Fitness or any of the citizenship MBs at summer camp. For those five, plus Personal Management and Family Life, our Scouts have to go through the process of individually working with MB counselors the old fashioned way, making and keeping appointments and working through the requirements with the counselor. That takes much more time than sitting through five days of classes at camp or one afternoon at the local merit badge university. As they guys get older and are working on Star, Life and Eagle, we try to manage the Positions of Responsibility, too. I don't subscribe to the idea that we have to create a POR for everyone who needs one. Boys have to earn their positions. If you make First Class in May, you have to wait until September for the PORs to open again and then serve your four months. (Actually, you serve the full six-month term, but the requirement for Star is only four months.) An Eagle project can add another six months to a year, from the time a Scout first asks to begin working on his project through final write-up. None of this is draconian. It just comes across as how we do things. The natural rhythm of the troop. Occasionally we get a Scout (or most often his parents) who are all full of wiz and vinegar to blow through advancement. But they tend to chill out after they realize this isn't Cub Scouts and you aren't a failure if you don't get a belt loop or an arrow point at every pack meeting. No "my way or the highway" confrontations, but directing the Scout to a part of the program more appropriate for him. I've been SM more than four years now, and the first group of boys who came into the troop four years ago are just beginning to go for Eagle. Two of them are well into their Eagle projects. I suspect over the next 18 months, most of them will earn Eagle. Most they will complete Eagle before their 17th birthday. Surprisingly, that's a little faster than what was usual for the troop before I took over. Then, the usual track was to blow through Life by 13 and do nothing for three or four years before scrambling to finish the Eagle requirements at the very last minute.

I prefer a more simple guide. If you can, find a guide specific to your region. Our state forestry service publishes a guide of common forest trees that is really good. It includes about 150 trees common to the area. It includes a drawing of the leaves, branch structure and fruit, if any, and a map showing the range of the tree. It also has a good description of all the other characteristics of the tree. I find the omnibus guides too much, especially when working with Scouts. I really don't need a book with all 87 subspecies of the Asian yarrow.

Joisey! Good to hear from you! I didn't know you were still around.

Good point, JKC, if that opportunity is available. I've suggested several times our troop take the train to the capital and do a sleepover in a church basement or armory or somewhere. The local schools no longer go to the state capital, so there is much there that few of our boys have ever seen. Unfortunately, our Scout camp is in the boonies. One of my objections to Cit/Nation is their visit to a Federal facility is the local post office -- a one-window affair with maybe 100 PO boxes. It's a joke. Drucker's Store would be a better trip.

I thought that was a muffin on the cooking MB. Chef's hat? Hmmmm...... I'd make more difference between Rifle and Shotgun shooting. They're identical except for the shotgun shells and rifle cartridges. You really have to look close to tell the difference. Metal work is lame. How about an anvil and hammer?

Our camp offers these (plus Personal Fitness) but I won't sign a blue card authorizing Scouts in our troop to take them. (We had a long thread a couple months ago on whether or not a SM should do that, so I won't rehash it again.) Aside from the dumb idea of going to summer camp just to sit in a civics lecture, I want the Scouts in our troop to earn a few MBs through their own inititive. You know, buy a book, call a counselor, make an appointment, go to the counselor's home or office, and work through the requirements individually. That's a key purpose of the MB program which camp and merit badge universities miss. As is, I think the only Eagle MBs not available at camp are Family Life and Personal Management. To earn all but a few MBs in three years of summer camp isn't right. I don't think we ask too much of our Scouts to show a little individual initative in earning the seven MBs outside of camp.

I was a stupid, ham-handed attempt at a clever intro. But as I listened to the story, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop, that these guys are all Scouts, that they do their training under the guise of a Venture crew, or something like that. How many other listners assumed the same thing? But how many of them took the time, as I have now done, to go back and read the news coverage out of Raleigh and even the original indictment to learn there's no connection between these bozos and Scouting. So do what I just did. Click the "contact us" link at the top of the Takeaway homepage and complain about it.

Finally, a use for tofu!

Hey Boo-boo, Yellow-Yellow is smarter than the av-ver-age bear!

Legal issues may be a problem here, too. Here, PWC operators age 12-15 must have a license (day-long class and pass test). PWC have a place. I would think they would be a great advantage to an instructor with canoes or sailboats all over the lake. Part of the issue with PWC are how they are used. Most folks aren't content to tootle around like a Sunday afternoon ride. All the fun is in jumping the wake of other boats and horsing around with other guys. The reason PWC insurance is so high is because the temptation to do stupid stuff on them is so great.

Last winter one of the other SMs in the district did a joint Boy Scout/Cub presentation at Roundtable on Webelos transition. I thought he did a pretty good, but some how all the guys from our pack heard was all the stuff I, the SM, should be doing for the pack, including attend Webelos meeting about once a month or so. Um, NO. NOW is the time to start paying attention to that whole boy-led thing. I want to make a strong impression on the Webelos that the boys are the ones they will be listening to in the troop, not the adults. I think your better course would be to sit down one-on-one with the SM (plus the other W2 leaders, if there is more than one den) and ask what the troop does with Webelos transition. Unless his answer is, "not much," let the troop take the lead. I assume this is your first time crossing over into Boy Scouts, but the troop does it every year. Our troop plans a big Webelos campout weekend the first of November (usually perfect camping weather). The Scouts plan the whole weekend to give the Webelos a feel for what they will see in the spring. The troop leaders haul the parents off somewhere for a two-hour Boy Scout 101 class where we answer all your questions (plus many more.) We have a 12 page booklet we give the parents with all the info. The booklet started as the syllabus for the session, but so many parents asked for copies, we expanded it into a more readable format.

It's very reassuring to me, Cali, that you think so much of the program that despite a bad experience you are still looking to move forward with the program in your new town. I hope you find a better fit there. Like every other place on the Internet, you need to keep an open mind about what you read here and make your own decision about the value of the information. The bulk of the info you've received about records is solid and straight forward: pack you own chute. If you have your original, initialed handbook advancement records, rank cards and merit badge blue cards, I think most Scout leaders will take that as the gold standard. Most of us understand that troop records and even council records can be a problem. Hopefully your troop and council are on the ball so that your records transfer smoothly. I agree with Hal that you should try to complete your Life BOR with your current troop. Obviously, if there is a real conflict with the SM which would make that a problem, that's another story. Only you can decide if the problems with your current are too much to have to put up with. But I would suggest you make the effort, especially since you have about six months to get it done. In the troop I serve -- and in most other troops I'm familiar with -- the Scout Spirit and Position of Responsibility requirements are signed off by me, the Scoutmaster, during the SM conference. That's a big part of what I talk about with the Scout, how the live the Oath and Law in their everyday life and how the did in their POR, what they learned from the experience, the problems they encountered and how they solved them, etc. If you are a new Scout just joining the troop, it would be difficult for me to evaluate you on those two requirements. If those two requirements are signed off in your handbook, I would be obligated to accept them as complete, but I'm still going to have some questions. Secondly, and probably more importantly, is that I consider the Life Scoutmaster conference more significant than the Eagle conference. With me, your Eagle conference is a victory lap. Life is where you and I are going to work through any "character issues" we may have. That includes a lot of intangible stuff usually thrown in under the heading of "Scout Spirit", but includes things like attitude, participation, leadership, discipline, etc. etc. In my mind, when I sign off on a Life Scout, I have it in my mind that the Scout is ready to be an Eagle (pending a few merit badges, a project and some other requirements). Obviously, that is a personal thing with me. Your mileage may vary. Many other leaders may disagree with that philosophy and many more have probably never thought about it that way. But at minimum, most will agree that signing off on a Life award for a Scout they barely know will give them pause. All I am suggesting is that you can avoid all this stuff by wrapping up Life at your current troop and making a clean start at your new troop. But it's your call to make.

" . . . troop being found negligent in an injury my son sustained while in their care on a campout last month. " Until we get more info, I think it's a pretty safe conclusion to say NOTHING gets litigated inside a month.