Twocubdad

In 10+ years as a leader, I've been involved in dismissing one Scout from our troop. It took nearly a year, included one three-month suspension, a probation period and more meetings with the Scout and parent than I can count. When the last straw was finally added to the sack, the decision was made in about five minutes with very little discussion. The meeting with the Scout and his parent to let him know of our decision was about as long. The point being, by the time we got to the point of dismissing the scout, everyone was crystal clear on what the issues were and why the boy was being removed. No further discussion was needed. That your son is at the point of being dismissed from the troop and neither you nor (apparently) he have any idea why is troublesome to me. I will allow that there are some circumstances which would lead to immediate dismissal. In a situation like that, I, as Scoutmaster, would immediately suspend the Scout from the troop pending action by the troop committee and meet with him and his parents to explain why. Ultimately, membership is the perview of the troop committee, not the Scoutmaster. If the committee agrees to remove the Scout should be removed, the Chartered Organization Representative would have the final say and he or she would notify the council the boy had been dismissed from the troop and ask that he be removed from the charter. Since it doesn't seem any of that is going on, I would agree with the other posters that absent some substantive communication from the troop, I would be looking for another troop.

Perhaps I'm not reading this correctly, but Barry are you talking about a troop with only the new scout patrol being aged-based (presumably 11-year-olds) and integrated patrols there after, or are we taking about having all the patrols aged-based? When I took over the troop we had aged-based patrols through-out, like Cub Scout dens. It didn't work for a number of reasons listed above. It was he** to reorganize the troop into integrated patrols (except for the NSP). The cliques the aged-based patrols had created didn't want to split up. We've used the NSP/regular patrol system for two years now and it works well. Still trying to add the third leg of having a Venture Patrol, but the guys who would be eligible think it's too much work. Nick, as you are seeing, there is a difference of opinion on the new scout patrol system -- good arguments both ways. It works well in the troop I serve. In my experience the success of a NSP relies on the quality of the Troop Guide. If the TG doesn't have an interest in working with the new scouts and would rather hang with the guys his age, it doesn't work. The first four months the TG needs to literally live, eat and sleep with the new scout patrol. By the fall, the TG rejoins his regular patrol, but still serves as arms-length mentor to the NSP. For four years now we've had good, solid troop guides and it has been a great experience for both the TGs and the guys in their patrols. The older guys who want to get to know the new guys will make and effort to do so. They'll pitch in and help the TG's as instructors and -- on a less formal basis -- do what they can to make the new Scouts feel welcome and bring them into the troop. I especially see this at summer camp where, for better or worse, we tend to run more as a troop and less by patrol. Some guys, regardless of age, just make friends more easily than others. Some of the older guys always think that to maintain their "coolness" they have to treat the little guys like something the cat dragged up. Their loss.

I tend to agree with Kudu on this -- with no specific policy, it needs to be left up to the scouts. (Kudu -- please credit my account.) Our troop owns all the tents. Each patrol is assigned three, two-man tents and one three-man. The three man is available to accommodate an odd number of Scouts, or as a perq for the PL if he wants it. The older, more experienced guys would kill for a solo tent. They understand that tents are for sleeping. As for comraderie, if they want to hangout, they stay up and hang out. But if they want to go to sleep, the go to sleep. And you don't want four guys in the tent running a poker tournament while they're trying to sleep. Some of the new guys tend to freak out if left alone in a tent. The first night of summer camp last month I almost had a newbie pack it in home sick because his tent mate decided to sleep under the stars with a bunch of other guys and left this lad alone in the tent. We did some last-minute re-assignements and found a buddy in similar a circumstance who moved in with the Scout and he was good to go. I don't really see a safety issue with it either. I can't imagine one scout getting up out of a warm rack to go watch his buddy pee. Heck, I can't get half these guys up at revelle, much less n the middle of the night. If you're counting on a tent mate waking up because his buddy is having problems, good luck. For that matter, how does that work at home? My boys rooms are upstairs and at the other end of the house. If they have a problem in the night, they have to get up and come get us. They don't sleep with buddies at home, why would a campout be any different?

I'm with Barry. Within the campsite, we are considered to be buddied-up with the whole patrol or troop. Same when we are traveling as a group. If you are together with your patrol or the whole troop, it seems a little silly to be officially designated as a buddy with someone. For those of you who disagree (and it doesn't look like anyone does yet) do you have buddy checks from time to time while sitting around the campsite?

How will you be penalized at recharter? The rack? Waterboarding? Your secret decoder ring recalled?

You can say it's only $5, but a 50% raise is a big step anywhere. Individually, it isn't much, but when you start multiplying it out, it adds up. For our troop the increase in youth fees alone will equal the cost of sending a boy to summer camp. This year, when we had a Scout whose parents were out of work, we had the money in the treasury to cover his camp fees. Will that money be there next year or will it go to Irving? Wasn't one of the benefits of all the new on-line stuff that it would save money by eliminating the cost of hard-copy literature. I love how stuff like that always, ALWAYS, gets turned around. Since all the data entry chores for recharter and advancement have been pushed off to the units, where's the labor savings? We still have the same registrar and "program assistant" drawing salaries.

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that some of the folks you hear about taking really stupid chances and requiring rescue should pay for the rescue. But why is it limited to wilderness rescue. Why are people liable for traffic accidents or those who leave food on the stove and burn their houses down being sent bills? If this kid had fallen in his bath tub and twisted his ankle, his insurance would have covered an ambulance charge if he were taken to the hospital. In this case I'm curious about the circumstances of twisting his ankle and deciding to go forward, not back. That seems like a judgement call. If the whole series of events were triggered by his accidentally twisting his ankle, where's the negligence? Without the injury, was the hike otherwise reasonable? If all the other rescue calls the state went on averaged a little more than $1,000, it seems to me that the state is just going after the high dollar amounts.

Resqman's got a pretty good list. Our troop is big on both leatherwork and woodcarving. I handle the carving stuff and an ASM is into leather. (That doesn't sound good, but who knows, maybe he is?) Here's some more: I like a carpet remnant for the floor of the cabin tent. A TV table makes an easy night stand for your alarm clock, lantern and the junk you dump out of your pockets at night. A big kitchen knife, as someone is sure to send a watermelon. 5-6 Coleman lanters, fuel and mantels. Our site has a big pavillion. We hang the lanters from the rafter at night so the guys can hang out and play cards, etc. Citronella candles for the bugs. Walmart had tiki torches on sale 2/$5 the week before camp so we took a dozen and scattered them around the campsite. Helped with the bugs and looked cool, but I kept looking for someone to vote off the island. Along the same lines, I have a box of solar landscape lights we put around camp. I found them on sale at Lowe's for $20. We put them by the latrine, the adult tents and the SPL's tent. The light is handy (no so bright that it keeps me up) and it's nice to tell the little guys if they have a problem in the middle of the night just look for the lights. I take a few office supplies - stapler, scissors, hole punch, tape, etc. T-2-1 program stuff if any of the new guys have spare time and want to work on requirements - the rope tub, ax yard stuff, first aid training stuff, etc. Cleaning supplies -- our campsite has one be trough-style sink for everything from tooth brushing to sock washing. We give it a once over ever day with Lysol spray. We also have a Mack Daddy bottle of liquid hand washing soap and a small bottle of dishwashing detergent by the sink. We also keep a mega bottle of hand sanitizer in the pavillion. We have a tub at the hut of misc. picnic stuff (plates, forks) and we throw that in the trailer. Never know when someone's mom is going to send up a birthday cake. Rechargable/battery hair clippers. Yes you read that correctly. Camp hair cuts are a big tradition with us. The more odd the better. Mowhawks are big. So are having the troop number carved on the sides of your head. We'll have 4-6 kids from other troops wander into camp every night looking for a buzz. The first cut is free. We charge for taking it down clean before you go home. Bulletin board with the master schedule and the class schedule. We also have a white board and markers where we post key info. I have a camp notebook with all the admin stuff for the week. Rosters with emerg. numbers (camp nurse keeps the med forms so I like having the contact info) and a separate "cheat sheet" with key medical info like allergies and medications, list of the driver coming to get us, schedules of all sorts, advancement stuff (like a "nights camping" report so we can verify the 20 nights for the guys taking Camping MB). All the check-in info is in one place so I hand it all over Sunday afternoon. I run off a stack of troop rosters for the SPL's general use. This year we had an honest-to-Pete camp wide emergence "THIS IS NOT A DRILL" stuff, and our SPL was Johnny-on-the-spot with a written check list showing all our Scout accounted for. Have fun at camp!

To think the inclusion of a "technology pocket" was part of a well-thought-out policy shift by national to incorporate technology into the program is a stretch. More likely some marketing guy in the supply division. Like many other things folks would like to dictate, I'll wait for an actual policy statement instead of reading tea leaves on uniform tags. Until then, how this is handled is at the discretion of the unit.

On a positive note, I think differentiating between Star and Life PORs and Eagle PORs is a good thing. I encourage my Scouts to server as PL, ASPL or SPL for their Eagle POR, although I don't (and can't) make it a hard requirement. I wouldn't mind it if the separated a few more out. Webmaster is a good addition too. We've had one on an off for several years and have always treated it as a Scribe or Historian with specific duties for the web site..

We've hashed this out recently, so you may want to look for the thread from a couple months ago. One of the reasons for having the SM assign a counselor is that the SM maintains the ability to direct the Scouts away from problem counselors. Here, MBCs tend to serve exclusively for their own troop, so managing the quality of MBCs is handled by who we register as counselors. Only once have I felt we had a counselor I needed to steer our guys away from. Later he was quietly taken off the list.

Are you looking at this from the lodge point of view or the troop? For the lodge I would think it would be a very basic record keeping function to see who had gone throught the ordeal last year. For the troop it's OPP (other peoples' problems). Around here opportunities for Ordeal and Brotherhood are fairly tight. If a Scout's is enthusiastic about being in the Order and his best opportunity to complete Brotherhood shaves a few weeks off the 10 months I wouldn't sweat it.

Not sure of the trends either, but here we do both. UofS tends to be more formal training -- position specific, BALOO, NLE or what ever the call the new course. It also tends to be more Boy Scout oriented. Pow Wow is strictly for Cub leaders (including den chiefs) and focuses on Cub program topics.

We've never figured out anything to do with it either.

One of the cool things about going to world jamboree were the neckers. As OGE points out, everywhere else in the world neckerchiefs are the one constant thing which identifies Scouts. You could see scouts walking around in cut-offs and an ABBA t-shirt, but would still have their national neckerchief on. f-ccb, I also played football all through school and agree with you that a football uniform is much more useful than a scout uniform. I know rugby players make fun of us, but I don't care to be out there without the right gear. But I would suggest to you that the analogy is a bit flawed. I would consider helmets and shoulder pads the equipment of the game, more so than the uniform. Compare them to the gear you carry on a campout, tents and cook sets, rather than what you wear. You do have a point about ball players needing to make quick identifications of their team mates. But wouldn't the mesh covers you wear at practice serve the same purpose? Wouldn't a basic screen printed jersey do? Why do teams go to the added expense of the high-tech fabrics and multi-colored, embroderied uniforms? My freshman year in high school we got a whole new set of coaches. Top to bottom. Even the guys assigned to coaching junior high were part of the new coaching staff. Prior to that I think our high school team had gone something like 10 or 12 years without a winning season. The school system finally decided they were tired of loosing and cleaned house. The new guys were all from one of the big state university football programs and had all been assistant coaches, graduate assistants or at least players there. They knew each other and they knew the system. The first change they made? New uniforms. Not just game uniforms but for the first time we had uniform practice jerserys. (Before that you just wore any old ratty t-shirt you could scrounge out of your dad's drawer.) We also got white team polo shirts with the school logo embroidered on it. Back then, the only polo shirts around had the little allegator logos and were big bucks, so these shirts were really special. Guys slept in those shirts. We wore them everywhere except church Sunday morning and game days for which we had to wear suits and ties. (But that's another point for later.) After a game at the local pizza joint, we made a real entrance when the members of the team walked in all wearing those white shirts. (Or at least WE thought we made a big entrance!) The point? We started looking like a team so we started playing like a team. For a change, we took pride in being on the football team. That year we went 5-5. My senior year we went 10-2 and made the play off for the first time in years. Did we win because of the uniforms? No. But that was one of the sparks which put us on that road. Uniforms, especially Scout uniforms are more than the simple utility of the piece of clothing. They are about pride and esprit de corps. Look like a team, play like a team. Fast forward 30 years. When I became SM the senior guys had spent two years talking about getting troop hats. So I ordered the hats. At the same time, I ordered matching troop neckerchiefs. Honestly, I didn't care much about neckers per se, but I remembered the tradition in my troop of everyone making all sorts of slides and wanted to try to resurect that. None of the older Scouts would wear the neckers unless it was mandated for some formal occasion. Too dorky. Of course the younger guys wanted to be like the cool guys and wouldn't wear them either. Two things happened to change that. First, at crossover, part of the ceremony is that we take the Webelos hats and neckers off and present them with a the troop hat and necker. All of a sudden, we had 100 boys in the cub Scout pack who saw getting a troop hat and necker as the pinnacle of Scouting. New Scouts would come into the troop with a great deal of pride in their new troop uniforms and would always wear their neckers all the time -- or until they figured out the "cool guys" don't wear them. That took longer and longer every year. The second thing to change was a couple of our senior guys went to world jamboree and saw how the rest of the world wears neckers and came back wanting to wear them. A trend was born. That was four years ago. Now, everyone wears they hat and neckercheif as a regular part of the uniform. Well, okay, except for a couple of the old hold outs. But now if you show up with both pieces, you're "out of uniform" and the PL or SPL will be on to you about it. All that paid off at summer camp last month. We were by far the largest troop in camp during a fairly small week so our guys were probably 20-25% of the Scouts in camp. Suddenly, our guys are everywhere and with the custom hats and neckercheif, it looked like we were everywhere. Our Scouts got stopped and complimented. MB couselors recognize our guys. We got buzz. You can sense not only the pride our guys have in their troop, but you can also see how our guys stick together. All over camp you see small groups of Scouts in red hats hanging together. We had a great week at camp -- mainly due to our PLC doing a great job and our Scouts working hard and staying energized. But I will also attribute part of it to the sense of pride in their team and the comraderie the guys felt came in part from being easily identified as part of the troop. Not everything is about utility like a football helmet or shoulder pads. Yeah, the uniforms are hot in summer and cold in the winter and cost too much. But don't overlook the intangibles and sense of belonging a uniform can instill. Look like a team, play like a team.

Answer the question, "Now that I'm trained to position, what do I actually do with the Scouts at den meetings?" Include: Skits Songs Crafts Ceremonies How to Teach ... (fill in the blank) Flag Etiquette Local "Go See It" ideas Outdoor program ideas Campfire stuff Outdoor skills (age appropriate) I think Baloo's Bugle has a section where they post the Pow Wow books from old Pow Wows -- basically a compilation of all the handouts from various Pow Wows.

POW WOW. Many of the things mentioned here should be included in a good CS Pow Wow.

Over the years I've had quite a few Scouts come through who simply had a very wide lazy streak. Or as Ron White's grandpa said about him, "that boy's got a lot of quit in him." Your best defense is an air-tight duty roster and to make completion of the tasks the responsibility of the whole patrol. That's pretty easy with meals and other camp chores, but something like sweeping pavillion doesn't have built-in consequeces the way blowing off breakfast does. The heard will eventually take care of itself. We used to have a similar problem with boys manipulating the system at summer camp. Typically we had guys who failed to complete chores or get into uniform for meals knowing the could get by with it because we would allow the whole troop to miss a meal waiting for them. The troop committee made the commitment to have four leaders in camp at all times (which given the size of our troop wasn't out of the question anyway.) With four leaders, the policy is anyone who isn't in uniform or who doesn't have their duty roster assignments squared away doesn't go to the dining hall until they have done so. One pair of leaders escorts the troop and the other pair says with the slackard. If necessary, the first pair of leaders relieves the second so they can go eat. We can play that game all night, if necessary. If the slackards are only a few minutes late and catch up with the troop, they still go to the end of the line at the dining hall. That's more of an adult-driven solution, but summer camp doesn't lend itself as well to working the patrol system. Once we let the Scouts know the new rules, the problems stopped immediately and completely. Go figure. As to your initial problem Scout, BS,

All my communications with my Scouts are via written, pen-and-paper letters mailed back and forth. I give extra credit for quill pens and parchment.

I understand that. This ain't my first rodeo. But as long as the requirement states a Scout must "Be active in your troop and patrol..." I will stick to the plain-language understanding of those words as I learned them at my mother's knee. Some FAQ on some web site doesn't change that. You don't set the speed limit at 65 miles per hour then redefine the phrase "speed limit" to mean "any speed at which a driver may wish to drive." Limit means limit. Active means active. If national's intent is that a Scout only be a registered member of the BSA (a perfectly reasonable requirement) then they should change requirement 1 to "Be a registered member of the Boy Scouts of America...." Very simple, very clean, no ambiguity. If and when that change occurs I will apply the new requirement with the same vigor I apply the current requirement.

SPEED LIMIT 65 A driver is considered to be within the speed limit if: 1. He holds a current driver's license (driver's license fees paid) 2. He has not had his driver's license revolked 3. Law enforcements engages the driver and informs him of the posted speed limits. Let me know how that works for you. Or try this: "To gain full advantage of all that Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If you're there, you can do your part to make you patrol and troop a success." -- Boy Scout Handbook, pg. 169 If national wants to change the requirements to reflect the registered=active standard, they can dang well do it. I believe we are about to get new handbooks later in the summer, right? That will be a good opportunity to make the change. Until then, they'll have to over rule our troop's active=active standard on appeal.

This is nothing new to you, Ea, but here recruiting is driven more by the district through School Night Roundups than it is through the individual packs. Many packs, especially those chartered to large churches, have their own roundup nights at their CO. But I think most of the numbers still come through the schools. We generally avoid the problems you describe because we're pushing new Cubs to the packs. If we get 25 or 30 new boys at a school night event, all the packs have to do is show up and process the paperwork. We even have some packs who show up having decided on the maximum number of new boys they will take. (These units are limited by meeting space.) The down side to this is the larger packs tend to get larger. I'm not totally sure why, other than boys want to go where they have friends and they're more likely to have more connections at the larger packs. At schools where mutiple schools are recruiting, the district sends a representative to host the event keep the playing field level.

Take some time to read through some of the threads here related to the patrol method and boy leadership. Being freaked out by the chaos of a scout meeting is common among new parents. A couple years ago I was really looking forward to one of the really good den leaders from the pack crossing over to the troop. This guy was wound pretty tight and ran a really tight ship at den meetings. When his son got to the troop, he couldn't stand the chaos. He made it only a couple months and we never saw him again. His son dropped a year or two later. The chaos is a just part of the program. Those soft-spoken kids with their fingers up trying to get control of the meeting are a big part of what it's all about. Come back in six months and I bet you'll see two self-confident young men at the front of the room doing a much better job of running things. Of course that will be about the time two more soft-spoken kids step into those roles and we start over again. Take some time to learn the program and see how you can best contribute. In my experience, the first year as a Boy Scout parent is much more difficult than the first year as a Boy Scout.

Parents don't like Friday night meetings because they think of Friday as being date night. Once they realize that they haven't been on a date in 14 years, they realize that Fridays are a pretty good meeting night. Like you say, not being a school night is pretty convenient. We have a bunch of dens that meet on Sunday, they go back to back in hour-long meetings for several hours.

I'm kinda thinking along the same lines as ScoutNut. What you may see as "supporting" your son may be seen by the troop leaders as a hovering parent interferring with the program. I'm butting heads right now with a new dad who very overtly is involved with Scouting because he wants to spend time with his son. That's Y-Guides -- Kids and Dads Building Memories -- meets the third Thursday down the road. That's not Boy Scouts. We're about letting the boys work with the youth leaders to plan thing, run the troop and solve problems. Our role is to create a safety net and only get involved when necessary. I don't know about you or your situation to really have an opinion, so I'll only ask that you step back and ask yourself is this is the problem, or even if the troop leaders' perceive this to be the problem. Try to get in their heads. Of course they may just be a bunch of clannish jerks. Scouting does have a propensity to create lots of little Ol' Boys Clubs which are hard to break into.