Twocubdad

Overall, I say it's just lack of commitment. In particular, one moved to another troop, one was suspended from the troop for disciplinary reasons and not permitted to go on the trip, one dropped out of Scouts all together, several just changed their minds. All the adults who dropped did so because their son's dropped. Overall, I'd say too much of this turns into a overgrown lad/dad campout. With the current crew, seven of 10 Scouts signed up have their dads signed up as well.

Need some input on handling the administrative end of putting a Philmont trip together. The troop has sent two crews since I've been SM and it's been a terrible experience. The biggest problem has been the drop out rate and trying to keep the trip intact. Three years ago we had to recruit 2 of the 5 Scouts from another troop and the whole trip almost collasped when one of the two leaders had his vacation cancelled. Last time, we started with 12 Scouts and 5 adults. Ultimately all but one adult and two Scouts dropped out. So we spent almost two years scrambling trying to find replacements to keep the crew together. The big issue is that when someone drops, of course they forfeit any payments, but if the trip falls apart, the boys who are still in loose their money too. At one point, one of the families was demanding that the troop reimburse them for their lost fees and airline fares. How do you guys handle this? Do you have any agreements as to how money is handled? How do you protect the troop from having financial responsibility?

I've just started going to OA chapter meetings with our troop OA Rep and we seem to have the exact opposite problem. After a 2.5 hour meeting it was decided that at the Fall Fellowship we would wear bandanas not hats and recycle an old gateway from an earlier fellowship that was in storage. Those were the only two decisions left standing. Numerous other ideas were floated, discussed then abandoned. Even with the meeting running an hour late on a school night, the adults all sat like bumps on logs. Shouldn't the ADVISORS occasionally offer advice? Like, "if I understand you correctly we have three proposals on the table. Which one should we focus on?" Or, "We have several more agenda items to cover, so let's move on." Or, "You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Good night!"

A couple points: First, finance is properly the balliwick of the CC. Let him/her run with it. But since you are the one here and asking, the real answer depends on the pack's budget. Probably as important as the cash is the historical record of what the pack spends. Without that, you are absolutely guessing when it comes to creating a budget. (I know, I went through that with our troop. Finally, two years later, we have enough good historical cost data that we can create a reasonably accurate budget.) Ask the old CM what records he has. Hopefully, he has more than a checkbook register or a budget with only one or two broad line items. And make sure he understands why you want the info, least you think he's checking up on you. I don't know how you can handle this without causing a stink, but I would be very uncomfortable with 3 Webelos taking off with a third of the budget. How did they arrive at that amount? Some units maintain "Scout Accounts" in which individual Scouts can accrue money, usually a share of fundraising proceeds, which they can use for Scout-related expenses. If the $1000 is in these three Scouts' accounts and the funds are being transferred to the Boy Scout troop, that's one thing. But from the way you put it, it sounds like the CM just arbitrarily decided to clean out part of the account. Can you clarify?

Can you give us some details as to how many Cubs, dens, den leaders and other volunteers exist in the pack? My first step would be to do a quick inventory of the pack's other leaders. Even with a pack of only five Cubs, you must have four or five registered adult volunteers to have a legal pack. Your DE can provide you with the names. You need to determine if they are real volunteers or just paper leaders. Two very important people you need to get to know are your Chartered Organization Representative and the Pack Committee Chair. You work for the two of them. Of the CM (you), the COR and the CC, you better have two of the three positions filled. The COR is your contact with the church, VFW, fire department or school which "owns" your pack. Unfortunately, the structure of Scouting is such that many CORs are fairly out of touch with their Scouts and think of the Scouts as a totally separate group that only meets at their facility. You need to know this and find out what kind of support you can expect from your chartered organization. Many large and successful packs operate with distant CORs, but shouldn't have to. You committee chairperson is much more important. The two of you should operate the pack as a team. As CM you are responsible for running the program, the CC is responsible for administration. Your job is to plan and run pack meetings and to work with the Den Leaders to ensure they are delivering a good program. The CC is responsible for stuff like registration, fundraising and finance, tracking advancement and getting the badges and stuff for pack meetings, etc. If you have a small pack, say 10-20 Scouts and two or three dens, it is possible for the Cubmaster to run the pack with a CC-in-name-only IF (BIG IF) you have other volunteers handling these functions. Here are the possibilities: 1) good COR and good CC -- GREAT! 2) distant COR and good CC -- still okay. I was CC and later CM of a very strong pack with 120 boys and couldn't pick my COR out of a police line up. 3) good COR and paper CC -- it is the COR's job to recruit a committee chair, AND FAST! But since the CC will be your partner in running the pack, I would want a hand in the process. 4) Paper COR and paper CC -- There's not really a pack there. The DE is asking you to start one. Unless you are willing to take on that responsibility, I'd find another unit!

Exactly.

Early on I stressed to parents that one of the purposes of the belt loop program was to help fill the low points in their boys' advancement. In the fall, before they earn their rank for the year, or afterward in the Spring, belt loops are a nice, easy achievement the boys can complete and be recognized for at the next pack meeting. I would also give them a list of belt loops we would be likely be working on as a den. Consequently, if the parents go out and blow through all the belt loops by November of their Tiger year, they're not going to have them available later and their son will likely be bored during the den meeting where the rest of the guys earn them. That usually satisfied 90% of the parents. Even when I've had parents show up looking for fist-fulls of belt loops, I would go through the list and suggest that we spread them out over time. Still, I would occasionally have a parent sit with the book and think through all the requirements they had "already" completed. Yes, I'm sure you did go bowling for his four-year-old birthday party, but why not use earning the beltloop as an opportunity for another family outing? I also explain that it's just good discipline for the boy to go out and complete the requirement for the purpose of earning the belt loop or badge. Otherwise it's just an exercise in figuring our how to game the system. Somewhere along the line, one of those reasons struck a chord with the parent. To help with the cost, we had a pack policy that although you can earn the belt loop mutiple times (and with some Webelos Activity pins, you have to earn it again) the pack would only award the actual belt loop once.

Maybe it's just a local thing, but our district isn't that tough on MBC registration. About once a year our DAC asks each troop to send him a copy of all our counselors. I'm not sure what he does with the list, but that's pretty much it. I should note that locally almost all MBCs are troop-specific counselors. Each troop takes care of ensuring that their counselors is properly registered with BSA. In our troop, everyone is registered as either an ASM or committee member. I don't think we have anyone registered as a MBC. Eamon, don't you suppose the guideline you quote is in the context that ALL BSA volunteer positions are valid for only one year and must be renewed annually? Is there any reason a MBC's registration is treated any differently? As a Scoutmaster, I also serve year-to-year and must renew annually, through the troop's recharter process. Because all our MBC's are registered through the troop, they are also renewed at recharter. Again, sounds like there is a LOT of local variation.

The campsite we use at summer camp has a pavillion which was built and paid for by our troop and named in honor of our old Scoutmaster. We request that site for the week of summer camp and most times we use the Scout camp for weekend campouts. During summer camp, the pavillion is used by everyone and is the center of activity for the troop. You can pick up a card game there most any hour of the day or night. I've got one ASM into leather work and another into carving so they are usually set up there to encourage the guys to try their hand at one or the other. To me, the time spent handing out with your mates just doing whatever is the best part of camp. When we camp there on weekends the rest of the year, the patrols spread out into the nearby campsites, 100+ yards away. One side of the main site is the adults and the other for the new Scout patrols and the pavillion is mainly taken over by the adults. We all gather at the pavillion Saturday night for the troop campfire. I can remember only one rainy Snday morning when one of the new Scout patrols wound up under the pavillion. I think we had all the other patrols pack their gear to the pavillion and wait for rides there. Other than that, none of our usual weekend camping areas have pavillions. I have to say none of our patrols really "get" the use of a patrol fly. Back in the day, we had the old, massive, BSA-issue canvas flys, which was always the first thing up and the last thing down. If our guys set up a fly, it's usually more for shade than rain and consequently really isn't set up too well. The above new Scout patrol had a fly up, but did more to collect and channel water onto their gear than anything else. Unfortunately, it seems like we don't get enough bad weather to really drive home the need for a proper fly.

What does Youth Protection train us to do if we suspect abuse within Scouting? Report it to the Scout Executive. Personally, I don't see this as child abuse, but that would sure get the SE's attention. I would, however, ask him if he intends to clean up this mess within the council of if you need to appeal the process to national?

If your DE wants to get off her duff, do her job and form a new pack, great. The more the merrier. And next year you guy can do you best to help the new guys out at recruitment time. But if she's going to snark around, whisper about taking boys from you to form a new pack, yet still allow you to do the heavy-lifting of recruiting, forming dens, recruiting and training leaders, that is incredibly unprofessional. That's not how things work. I'd call her on it. If she doesn't like the way you handle recruiting, she should stay home. She sure as heck isn't adding anything to the program. She should kissing both your cheeks (fill in you own mental image) for taking the slack from the pack that folded. She may be down a pack, but at least the total membership number aren't taking a hit since your pack is picking up the boys.

Thanks Calico, you just freed up all my Tuesday nights and one weekend every month! I've got a couple parents who spout the same "you're standing in way of the Scouts (read, "my son") advancing" bull. I have a name for folks who feel that way about the job I'm doing as Scoutmaster. I call them "The New Scoutmaster." It's odd no one ever seems to take me up on that..... Advancement policy clearly requires a Scout to have a blue card signed by his SM before beginning a MB. This may be an assumption on my part, but when I am asked to sign something, that usually means I am approving the content of that document. In the case of a blue card, that includes the name of the counselor. The rule in our troop is a Scout shouldn't use a parent as a counselor for a required MB if there is someone else is available. We try to have mutiple counselors available for all required MBs, but we are occasionally short. Emergency prep and Environmental Science are the only two I know of with one counselor, and both cases the Scouts/sons already have the MBs. For elective badges conflicts are more frequent, and we don't really worry about it to much. In your situation, SM196, I don't think you can do much. If the parent is a registered counselor for all the badges, you don't have much of a case for refusing them. That the SM didn't give prior approval is fairly thin ice, if it comes to an appeal. That they Scout has been inactive due to medical issues makes an even harder call. I would sit down with the Scout, his mom and my troop advancement chairman and explain that you are concerned that he has done so many required MBs with his mom. Ask him if he can show you some of the work he did for the badges. As you say, if the mom usually sticks closely to the requirements, that should be the end of it. On the other hand, if it appears the mom has pencil-whipped the requirements, maybe she and the boy will see the light and complete any additional work on their own. Keep it friendly and non-confrontational. If it goes to appeal, you I don't think you have much of a case.

I grew up DO cooking the way you describe, and if it's an option, still do. But with LNT and most campsites picked clean of decent hardwood, we generally use charcoal. Still, I never pay attention to the charts that count out briquettes. I just heap charcoal on until it looks right. One trick I've learned is to preheat the DO by just putting it on the fire or even on a camp stove. Saves a whole lot of cooking time.

I don't think it's that simple a question. Something happens and you get sued, whether or not you were trained and/or qualified to run the event will definitely be part of the case, either in your favor or against. Over the years, I have asked a number of folks how BSA handles lawsuits. Most professional I've spoken to really can't (or won't) say. The most honest answer I got was from a regional exec. Because lawsuits always name you, BSA, and anyone standing close by, BSA WILL send in it's lawyers to defend you. The real question is who are those lawyers representing, you or BSA. Generally, defendants sink or swim together. But I asked the guy what happend if the BSA's and the volunteer's interests conflicted, are the lawyers there to represent the interest of the volunteer of BSA? At that point the fellow just smiled and shook his head slowly. Clearly, BSA has an interest in protecting it's volunteers. But if I totally goes off the reservation, is BSA going to spend thousands or millions to cover my screw up? Hmmmmmm. Personally, if I were ever sued is such a situation, I would have my own lawyer who would at minimum oversee the suit to make sure I was being protected. That's why insurance companies sell liability riders.

Our lodge requires troops to send adults with the Scouts. I don't really understand the requirement. In my day the lodge and chapter advisors were the adults at OA functions. I can't say that I ever saw an adult from my troop at a OA functions. If fact, my old SM used OA as a way of getting us out of the nest, so to speak. Frankly, this is a problem for my troop. I am really trying to get OA re-established among our Scouts. Years ago our troop produced a string of Lodge and Chapter Chiefs, but we've not had any active boys until this past year.. Finally, with this and last years' classes of Ordeal Brothers, I'm finally seeing some interest beyond flap envy. But I am the only active adult OA member and it's really a burden to add monthly chapter meetings and quarterly fellowships to my Scouting calendar. I had one ASM agree to go through Ordeal this year, but he had a conflict at the last minute. That really hurt as we are limited to one new adult OA member per troop per year. I have several dads who were OA as youth and could easily step in, but anytime I mention it the look at me like I have something dripping from my nose. None have Scouts active in OA and I suppose the idea of simply serving the troop is not high on their list. At an earlier Ordeal this summer, I sent the dads of the two candidates. As they are not OA members, the couldn't participate in any part of the program. One guy had a book, the other said he just wandered camp and napped.

I'd wait until you hear from the troop. They'll have a recommendation factoring-in stuff like the size of the tents and transportation. In '05 OneCubSon had a standard sized foot locker which locker fit under his cot. At World in 07, the cots were 6" tall and the boys were issued two duffle bags -- no totes or lockers allowed. But the tents had large equipment vestibules so it worked. Logistics with a contingent is different from doing things with your own troop. Wait and see what they tell you.

In a perfect situation, the advice so far is pretty good. But this doesn't sound like a perfect situation. That the mom met with you and didn't bother to mention that the girl is pregnant bothers me. That the girl doesn't seem to think that carrying, delivering and caring for an infant will effect her vacation plans is scary. Da'Nile ain't just a river in Africa. I would proceed with caution. Do what you can for the girl? Sure. But my Scoutmaster radar is going nuts here. I think some long conversations are in order with both the mom and girl and with folks who know how to deal with these things. I would want the other girls' parents on board too. As Calico says, it could be a positive thing for the other girls in the group to have this experience. It could also be a disaster. You need to have a pretty good indication which it will be.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Why would you want to do that? You're probably going to get a lot of responses talking about slowing and enjoying the trail. And they will be right. But here's the guts of the matter: Do you think it is Scout-like to cheat on some of the requirements, even if your Cubmaster is willing to go along with it? That's what you're asking to do, cheat on one of the requirement. If you're willing to cheat on one requirement, what should that tell us about how you've done on your other requirements. (And by the way, less you think I'm being harsh here, I agree with Basementdewllers assumptions.)

Last year we finally got to where we had the horses to offer two programs during the troop meetings. The program for the new Scout patrol was generally run by the Troop Guides. We've found that unless your Troop Guides really enjoy working with the younger guys, that they were burning out a bit, too. This year we're stepping up the plan with the Troop Instructors to help with the NSP programs. The instruction time for the older guys tends to have a heavier adult involvement. For instance, we had the grandfather of one of the guys in the troop teach Oceanography. The guys is a retired college biology professor and used to teach at Woods Hole, so it was very, very interesting. I taught a three week series on using UTM map coordinates and GPS units. I really though I had over shot the mark on the UTM stuff, but I gave thems some practical map activities to work through and they nailed it. Of almost 50 boys in the troop, I only have three 16 or 17 and they are pretty low maintenance. Two have been SPL recently. That and Eagle projects have kept them busy. But we really have gotten to the point of having a large group of high school junior and seniors to worry about. We do have a provision in the troop for a Venture/Leadership patrol, but I'm insisting that it be totally Scout-driven. So far, not takers. I also think you have to look outside the troop to engage older Scouts though OA, Philmont, NOAC and Jamboree. I started to get some of the "I'm bored/My son is bored" stuff about a year ago, which was when we put together the plan for the Venture/Leadership patrol. To a large degree, we put it back on the boys and their parents. If they wanted to step the program up a notch, they were going to have to put the effort into it. This ain't Tiger Cubs and it ain't a guide service. They want to to the high-end activities, the Scouts and their parents need to step to the plate.

I've sent Robert a the syllabi for the past couple TJLT's our troop had conducted and will be glad to do so to anyone else who wants to give me a real email address by private message. For the benefit of the others, one suggestion I made to Robert is something we did a couple years ago which is to distribute the official BSA job descriptions and have the Scouts rewrite them to reflect the way our troop really works. Even if their isn't a whole lot of modification, the time the Scouts spend working through the job descriptions makes them really focus on the details. And the final product, a customized set of real-world troop job descriptions is a great thing to have on hand.

OneCubSon (now an Eagle Scout) attended Jambo in '05 and came home with four or five MBs. He had an incredible experience with them all, including Wood Carving. Yes, you can earn every merit badge at home, but can you earn Aviation with the Blue Angels? Can you earn Geology with scientists from USGS? Merit badges you may consider mundane are taught by some of the top people in that field in the country. Earning a merit badge through these folks is definitely part of the once-in-a-lifetime experience of Jamboree. While I wouldn't want my Scouts to focus on any one thing to the exclusion of the rest of Jamboree, I wouldn't want them to miss the opportunities at the midway either.

No. At that point you -- or rather the parents -- have some flexibility. I would hesitate to repeat a program year, but my strong advice would be to put him in a den where he is with most of his friends. IMHO, that is one the strongest factor in sticking with Scouting. That could mean he stays in Wolves with his old friends or repeats Tiger with his new classmates. But the choice is for the parents to make. That said, if I were the parents I would probably leave him in Wolves. All other things being equal, since he's home schooled, I assume classmates aren't a big deal.

I don't know of anything the council is doing differently. They've have a campership program for years. I know this year the fund was totally drained with requests slightly more that what was budgeted. We;re in a pretty well off part of the council. Part of my orientation to new parents has always included a bit about how financial need will never stand in the way of a boy being a Scout. Our troop is pretty well off, and if push comes to shove, I know a number of individuals who will make things happen, if needed. I can think of only one taker in the past. A couple times we've had families ask if they could spread out payments. This year we had three boys ask apply for camperships to summer camp and for help with troop dues. All three were granted the camperships and the troop waived their dues. We had a whole bunch of families make payments. And I've noticed the uniform closet is getting a lot more use. So far the troop budget has been able to handle it. But if the trend continues we're going to have to look at other avenues. Last spring the PLC proposed a trip to the New River Gorge to go whitewater rafting. We did in a couple years ago and it was a great trip. But the committee figured with the guide service and travel costs, we were looking at about $200 per person. I was looking at something well north of $500 for my two boys and myself. So the committee asked the PLC to suggest another activity. That's the first time that's ever happened.

Amen, brother. Several years ago the son of one of the local heavy hitters joined our pack. His business partner was a big supporter of Scouting. I suggested to our DE that he and I take this guy to lunch and try to maximize his FOS contribution. We met with the guy and hit him with an "ask" of $2,500. The fellow squirmed and didn't commit right away, but a few days later he came across with a check for the full amount. A month later he was appointed to the council executive board. Hmmmm.... Son in Cubs for six weeks and one check and he's on the board.

I disagree Calico. That's not boy led, that's boy run off into a ditch. We as adult leaders are here to deliver a program to the Scouts. ONE PART of that program is youth leadership. What you describe sacrifices the other parts of the program at the feet of the youth leadership. How does a cancelled campout support the Patrol Method or the Outdoor Program or any other of the aims and methods? Controlled failure may be an effective teaching tool, but unless there is a cause and effect between the failure and the consequence of that failure there is no lesson. The lessons of a cancelled trip may be felt by the senior scouts, but I question the trickle-down lesson to the rest of the troop. We can say the rank-and-file troop members should learn to select more responsible leaders, but really? Can you expect a 12-year-old to make that connection to troop elections six months from now? All those guy are learning is that they belong to a lame scout troop which doesn't deliver.