Twocubdad

Den size and structure aside, whenever I've had boys join as Webelos IIs I tell them they have two options: 1. They and their parents put in extra time and effort required to do 18 months of work in six month. It can be done but takes a strong commitment from the Scout, his parents and the den leader (who still has to meet with the boy to sign-off on his requirements.) It also takes a fair bit of planning and organization. OR 2. Look at the next six months as one big ramp-up to Boy Scouts. Focus on learning the stuff he will need in the troop, like outdoor skills, learning the Oath and Law and the other stuff which will carry over. Be sure he makes the troop outdoor activity and troop meeting visit. I don't think the den should spend a lot of time rehashing the Webelos I year for the benefit of the new kid. But it is important that you make an effort to make the program open to him. There is a real Scouting culture which can be foreign if you haven't grown up with it. "You mean doing the stuff isn't enough, I have to bring you my book and get you to sign off on it too?" Don't use a lot of jargon or TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms). Don't assume he knows he has to bring his own knife and fork on campouts (or whatever you local traditions may be.)

Yeah, right. We always have a lot of folks competing for assignments so we tend to spend a lot of time on the selection process. Sure. Both methods, concensus and voting, have their pluses and minuses. But you really need to understand the potential drawbacks and be ready for them. Our committee runs on a concensus basis. And that works just fine as long as it works. The difficulty is when we don't reach concensus on an issue. Invariably someone will call for a vote on the issue and gets their knickers in a knot when they are told we don't take votes. Ultimately the decisions will be left to the folks responsible for that area. We had this occur this spring when some (actually just two) parents were upset with me that I would not sign off on their boys taking citizenship and communications MBs at summer camp. We spend better than an hour discussing the matter. At the end, one of the parents started passing out index cards for everyone to vote when the CC reminded them that this was a program matter and the decision was ultimately up to the Scoutmaster (me). At the time, that didn't sit too well with the two parents (although I know they would have been the only two to vote their way), but they got over it. It was uncomfortable for a few minutes and it required the CC having the backbone to stick to the way we do things. I do believe the key to successfully using the concensus method is having strong leaders, much the way scoutldr describes the strong executive in his organization, AND for the rest of the leaders to have trust in them. Voting on stuff in a legislative manner also works when it works but has all it's own pitfalls when it doesn't. As long as it's just a series of perfunctory yea and nay grunts, you're okay. But what happens when there is a controversial vote, such as an appeal of a negative Board of Review decision? Who gets to vote? How many units have a bunch of do-nothing committee members on the roster just because they had $15 and wanted to pretend they were involved? What happens if the parents of the kid making the appeal show up with a handful of sympathetic friends? Do you have an established quorum? How far into Robert's Rules do you go? I'm a political science major and was in the state student legislature in college. I can chew up 8 full hours with parlimentary BS. Mr. Moderator, point of personal privilege please..... You need to understand the implicatons of either method and be able to address these issues BEFORE they come up.

We run a fairly standard NSP program. New Scouts are assigned to patrols of 7-8 Scouts depending on the total number of Webelos who crossover. This year and last we had 14 or 15 each year and split them into two patrols. The year before we had 11 and kept them in on patrol, but assigned two troop guides. The troop guides decide how the patrols are divided, in consultation with the adults and including the former den leaders. Each patrol is assigned a troop guide who essentially serves as patrol leader for the first six months. I think the biggest negative of this system is that you live and die by the quality of the troop guides. Good ones are worth their weight in gold. For the first four months and through summer camp the troop guides are with their patrols full time. The biggest thing the do is to show the new guys the ropes on campouts -- cooking, cleaning, fire building, setting up the tents, etc. In the fall the troop guides rejoin their regular patrols and work with the new Scout patrols on an as-needed basis. We usually have one experienced leader and one newbie assigned to the NSP patrols. Their primary responsibility is to advise the troop guides; to manage the overall direction of the NSP program; and to help the troop guides make arrangements for special activities like the hikes and orienteering programs (we've gotten hooked with a local orienteering club and many our guy enjoy going to the orienteering meets). During the Sept. troop elections the NSP elects a slate of patrol officers like the rest of the patrols. Through the fall the NSPs operate more and more on their own with the troop guides and ASMs taking more and more of an advisory role. In December the NSPs are dissolved and the scouts divided out into the regular patrols. I've tried several years to get one of the adults to write out a program guide based on what we've done, but with no takers. I have someone now who has that as a Wood Badge ticket item, so it's in the works. I'm generally pleased with how the program works. As long as we have good troop guides (and for the past three years we've had goood ones) things run well.

First, you need to decide what you want to do. What do you enjoy? Not what's been dumped on you or what you think you're compelled to do because no one else will. Over the past year I've gone through this and have stepped back from all my district and council involvement. I decided what I really enjoy is being Scoutmaster to the boys in our troop and don't need the hassle and politics which seem to go along with district and council committees. Do you only want to stick with your DL duties? Are there elements of what you're doing for the pack you enjoy? Armed with this knowledge, let the CM and pack committee know what you are and aren't responsible for. I've learned over the years you have to be very clear and direct. People don't take hints -- especially when they don't want to hear it in the first place. "I'm not handling advancement any more. You need to recruit an Advancement Chairman or we won't have badges at the pack meeting." "The pack needs an Outings Chairman. From now on, I can't organize campouts." Or what ever. Personally I would handle this at a pack leaders' meeting. If the CM is a do-nothing, he probably won't do anything to find a replacement for you. Going to the leaders' meeting puts everyone on notice they need to step up to the plate.

In JLT we teach our guys how to handle disruptions when they are making presentations. There's the "Glare", you can go stand next to the guy causing the disruption or even ask him a question. The last thing you want to do is stop your presentation, put you hands on your hips and fuss at the guy to be quiet. At that point, who is causing the biggest disruption? I hadn't thought of it in terms of working as a team, but that's basically what we do (and in the future I'm going to emphasize the team aspect -- I like that). The PLC members not involved in the presentation are charged with helping to keep order, first by setting a good example and secondly by discretely shooshing guys causing a problem. Beyond that, we go the three strikes route. Scouts who are asked to step out are told to take a chair and sit on the front stoop of the hut until I talk to them. And I'm usually very busy during troop meetings and that can often take a long time..... Have you thought about the physical layout of the room? When I became SM the tradition/habit was for each patrol to sit at tables. That was bad for a couple reasons, first, half the kids had their back to the speaker. It also provided cover for a lot of poking and whispering. Now, we sit in a semi-circle for presentations, which has a couple advantages: first, you can only talk to the two guys on either side of you. Second, the leaders (youth and adult) tend to hang around the outside of the circle. One of my favorite tricks is to pull up a chair and sit behind the guys who are cutting up. A gentle tap on the shoulder makes the point, if they missed it the first time. As to the idea that kids cut up when they are bored: that only goes so far with me. We are very careful to limit sit-down presentations to 20 minutes. Even if it is the most boring thing you have ever heard in your life, you need to be able to politely sit and listen for 20 minutes. But the kids who are acting the clown trying to get attention usually start cutting up from the git-go. It's not about being bored, it's about someone else having the spotlight.

Our council recently got its nose thumped by national for having a minimum-required number of hours for an ESLP, so I rather doubt they're letting other councils slide. Frankly, I always thought their minimum was low and couseled our Scouts to do more. Stosh, I absolutely think the hours he spends fighting with council should count. It needs to be documented in the sharply-worded cover letter from his Scoutmaster. I think it's great that the Scout is pulling the material together to challenge council, but I also think stupid adult problems need to be handled by adults. A back-door "do-you-really-want-to-get-punk-slaped-at-national-by-a-16-year-old?" phone call to the appropriate people at council is also in order.

I realize this is a long and winding thread and since it isn't the main point of the thread, the full story of the boy we dismised from the troop isn't presented in one post from start to finish. But before you start calling others' character into question perhaps you should dismount your high horse and re-read the facts. The fact is, I spent a year fighting the parents and committee member who wanted to dismiss the Scout after the first incidence. During that year the troop did work with him to teach him how to behave safely and responsibly. Mutiple conferences with his parents. He was given mutiple opportunities to change his behavior. HE CHOSE NOT TO DO SO. That after 18 months of serious behavior problems which endangered him and other Scouts, that he was ultimately dismissed for something trivial is entirely incidental.

The first patch I ever earned as a Cub Scout was for selling 10 Scout Show tickets. Of course that was in 1967.....

You're probably right, Lisa, but what I find remarkable in his post is that he isn't allowed to ask? WOW!

I've offered my boys $25 for every post-Eagle merit badge. Shoot, on an hourly basis that's way cheaper than a movie. After six years at summer camp my oldest son was one MB short of a silver palm when he earned Eagle. My Life scout is a couple required MBs away and has all the elective MBs he needs. I figure this is cheap incentive to explore some topics they may not otherwise -- one of the original purposes of the MB program which has been ruined by merit badge mad summer camps, IMHO. That said, I do have a couple families playing the no-drivers-license-until-you-make-Eagle game. I have let it be known that I don't think much of that. But expressing an opinion is about all I can do.

Ditto to the ban on electronics, Ramen noodles and PopTarts. Not going to rehash the electronics debate, but if all a patrol is eating for breakfast is PopTarts, what sort of learning is happening. Who is learning to cook? What teamwork is involved in opening the boxes? What sort of community experience can you enjoy while choking down a PopTart? Same with the Ramen noodles, however we will relax that rule for backpacking trips. "What goes in the fire stays in the fire" is a mantra which harkens back to my days as a Scout. It just has a ring to it I enjoy. Too many ruined clothes and tents with all the flaming sticks swinging about. No rule about sodas (around here they're called cokes with a small C. It doesn't matter who makes it). But its never been a problem. We do have our favorite country stores on the way to camp. Everyone loads up on junk, but it's usually gone by the time we get to camp. It's never been raised to the level of a troop rule, but energy drinks are strongly discouraged. Scouts can buy them on the way home, but are allowed to open them only when we are within 15 minutes of home. Let the parents deal with them. I did have one boy approach me with one of those small, 2 oz. bottles of the concentrated energy crap. The sign said you have to be 18 to purchase, but the clerk would sell it to him if it was okay with me. All I said was "you've got to be kidding!?" and walked away. The kid was 14! What the h- does he need an energy drink for?

I think BufSkip is on the right track. Your first job is to square this with the Scoutmaster. Maybe the two of you and the COR can sit down and work through things. You need to work out the specifics of what's going on with this boy and the bigger picture issues of the troop's approach to matters of faith. On such a deep subject as this, you may get one response in a passing conversation with the Scoutmaster and another during a serious sit-down. I have a First Class Scout in our troop has made it know to other Scouts that he is an atheist. So far, I've just let it be. But at his next SM conference we will have an in-depth conversation about how he fulfills his duty to God. At this point, I don't see this as a make or break discussion, but as the beginning of a counseling process. Considering all the variables others have discussed above, I can forsee passing the Scout on Star but continuing to work with him. On the other hand, I would view Eagle as the end of the road. After working through all the variables, if the Scout is adamant that he really is an atheist, I would decline to sign his application. Since you are coming in on the middle of this movie, that really doesn't help you much. You don't really have the luxury of time and are somewhat stuck with the process which is already in place. But I believe your signature is required on the Eagle application for a reason. You have every right to question what you are signing and decline to do so if that is what your conscience dictates.

While he is obviously able to speak for himself, I'll jump in on Stosh's side on that count. I feel certain there's a great deal of history behind the can of soda and ultimately it's a symptom of the Scout's inability and/or unwillingness to follow the expectations of the troop. The one kid we expelled from the troop who I mentioned earlier in the thread was ultimately dismissed for having Honey Buns on a campout. Long story but a classic case of one more straw breaking the camel's back.

Even with Tigers a den that size is a bad idea. That means you have 40 people at den meetings. That's a decent sized pack! Who wants to bet that with 20 adults at den meetings instead of engaging their Tigers, half the partents are off in a corner socializing? An what happens when one of the DLs gets transferred and the other burns out? You've lost an entire class of Scouts. With properly sized dens, if something goes south you have at least minimized your losses. It happens. Follow the program. The right size for a den is +/- 8.

And in that situation, I would have handled it exactly the same way. Our only point of disagreement seems to be that I believe (as does the troop committee and COR) there are behaviors which are incompatible with remaining in the program -- gross and willful safety violations, physical abuse of another Scout, and providing drugs or alcohol to other Scouts are among them.

It's tough. As you say, it ends up being a lot of extra work for the Troop Guides and NSP advisors. We've not had the problem you describe, but we are fortunate to attract 2, 3 or 4 new Scouts off the street most years. Of course they come in at all different times. That most of these new Scouts have no Scouting experience at all makes it even more difficult as they don't understand much of the culture of Scouting the way a kid who has been through five years of Cub Scouting does. With these kid coming in one at a time, we don't have much choice but to assign people (youth and/or adults as they are available) to work with them individually. We can't just let them hang until a NSP cranks up in Feb. or we will loose them. Although if a boy joins sometime during the holidays we can get away with a little of that. In your situation, I would suggest cranking up with these four guys as you would if they crossed over in Feb or March. But unless you can commit to running two NSP programs for the next year, spin it this way: these four new guys need to really master these skills because when the other Webelos crossover in the winter, THEY will be responsible for teaching the new guys. Make it a challenge and a big responsibility they have. NOT that they are going to have to repeat the same skills and will probably be bored. Repeat this often. As you get close to crossover have a session on EDGE teaching techniques and really drive the idea that they are going to be teaching the new boys. What's the line from Remember the Titans? "Attitude reflects leadership, captain."

Discuss the example he is setting for the younger boys? He's distributing drugs and alcohol to them! Providing the stuff to the others is the coup de grace. Getting caught with an unopened bottle or a joint will get you all the conferences and parent's meeting in addition to a lengthy suspension. But providing drugs/alcohol to the other kids is inexcusable. We're not running a rehab unit or a probation office. His parents get to have all those heart-to-heart conversations about him taking ownership of his choices and the consequences he feels are appropriate. Or not. But it is no longer my concern because the young man is no longer in our troop. No yelling, no confrontation, no jumping on his case. Simply pack your things and wait for your parents to pick you up. The procedure in our troop is that I would suspend him for a month pending the committee and COR acting on my recommendations to revoke his membership. At this point my concern is not for this kid but the other Scouts in the unit, some of whom are still in elementary school, for goodness sakes. How do I explain allowing this kid to remain in the troop to their parents or to the Deacons of our chartered organization.

Third rail.

Apparently one way around the rule is to say "screw it" and do it anyway. People who want to follow the rules will, those who don't won't. I suppose I could sell crack or run a brothel and then donate the money to the troop. But if I call it a troop fundraiser and park the troop trailer out front, I think that's over the line. Whether or not the "parents' club" is maintaining sufficient distance between themselves and the troop is a call the Scout Executive ultimately gets to make.

What is your role in the troop? Scoutmaster? If not, unless you are the committee chairman or chartered organization rep, you're pushing a string up hill. If you are the SM, this is a program element and you are the chief program officer for the troop. Consequently, you simply need to make it an expectation that the Scouts will be in appropriate uniform. So what the heck does that mean? Well to begin with, your next Scoutmaster's Minute needs to be on the purpose and importance of uniforming. End with the statement, "it is my expectation that the Scouts and leaders in this troop wear the proper uniform at all troop events." And leave it there. No 12 point policy, no consequences, no transition period, no committee vote -- just a statement of what you expect from the scouts in the troop. From there it is a matter of slow, consistent pressure. Start with your junior leaders. Part of the job description for every position of responsibility in the troop is to properly the uniform. First, you need to point that out at the next PLC. Then, when your SPL shows up for a troop meeting in Hawaiian jams, ask him how he is fulling that part of the job? What sort of example is he setting for the troop? Don't ream him out, just ask the question and walk away. Ask you soccer player what would happen if the times for soccer and scouts were reversed, what would his soccer coach say about him wearing his Scout uniform to the game? Again, ask the question and leave it hanging. Next time you're asked for a Scoutmaster's Conference, tell the Scout you "expect" him to be in full uniform, including pants. If the boy shows up in full uniform, slather on the praise. If not, ask him how he thinks his lack of uniforming reflects on his Scout Spirit? Those conferences are a great time to reinforce the importance of unforming. You've got a captive audience to make your pitch. Include positive reinforcement. I'll occasionally show up for meetings with a box of ice cream sandwiches. Everyone in full uniform gets one. Next time there's a line for something, let the guys in full uniform go first. When you're at district events or summer camp, take time to comment on how other troops look. Nothing like a good -- or bad -- example to make a point. This summer one of the troops had the morning flag detail. Two of the guys wore bathing suits. One had flip-flops. The third wore pajama bottoms -- God as my witness, pajama bottoms! The cool thing for me was that I never had to say a word. The guys in our troop were APPALLED at the uniforming. (I love it when a plan comes together.) BE SURE to start the new Webelos crossovers off on the right foot. When you meet with them and their parents, tell them your expectation is that they will be in full uniform. By the time they figure it out, the will have established good habits. It will take time. Some guys will just refuse and you basically have to wait them out. Sooner or later they will either get with the program, age out or quit. Eventually, you will reach critical mass and the guys in the jeans will be in the minority. Then you have it on the run. Just do it! Plant the flag on top of the hill and you will be surprise at how many people will follow you up.

I've been trying for three years to re-establish OA as part of the troop program. Last year I finally got one Scout interested who is now Brotherhood and our troop OA Rep. This year we got four nominees, one of whom was sick and missed his Ordeal. But I've got four interested members and it's a start. One of our problems is lack of adult support. I'm the only active adult member. With a monthly chapter meeting, three weekend fellowships, Ordeal weekends, fundraisers and other miscellaneous activities, I just can't add that much to my Scouting calendar. I have a couple other adults who were youth members, but because their sons aren't interested, neither are they. Last year I recruited someone to take our one available adult nomination. Unfortunately he had a family emergency the weekend of the Ordeal and missed it. The lodge advisors tell me they would fudge the nomination of the Scout and let him go through the Ordeal next year, but they don't really want to do that for the adult. That's not very helpful as the Scout could be easily re-elected, but the adult would have to use our one adult slot. So clearly, I'm trying to finagle a second adult nomination next year. Right now we are flirting with the 51 active Scouts. We usually have our OA election before the Webelos crossover. (I don't think it's right to have brand-new Scouts voting on people they don't know.) So what if we hold youth elections in Feb. as usual, but wait until after crossover (when we will have well over 50 Scouts) to make the adult nominations? Is there any requirement that the two be linked?

My district commissioner met the National Commissioner recently. What's his name? Tito or something similar? The chubby guy everyone here was raggin' on a few weeks ago. Anyway, the report from that meeting was that the Goshen jambo site is dead, but what was advertised as the east coast high advanture site on the New River in West Virginia is a done deal and that plans are being made to have jambo there in '13. One of the neat parts of the plan is that a main Amtrack line runs adjacent to the site (and anyone who has rafted the gorge knows the line follows the river through the gorge) so there will be an Amtrack station on site with direct service to DC. He also said the three main HA programs at the site will be mountain biking, climbing (the walls of the gorge offer some of the best natural climbing areas in the east) and, of course, white water. Here's putting your money where your mouth is: almost every state responded to the original request for proposals for the facility. West Virginia's proposal came with a $10 million check attached and instructions that it could be cashed if the WVa were selected. When it comes down to it, this is a pretty big economic development fish for any state, with 20,000+ visitors in non jambo years. They cashed the check.

Carefully peeking into the can of worms I ask, Does the OA have a different definition of active?

Smoke this: I have 47 active Scouts (age 11-17)on the charter and four youth who have turned 18 during the year. How many adult nominations does the troop get? Does your answer chage if the four 18-year-olds register as ASMs?

I'm a good tee shot from three other districts and two other councils. I've sometimes wondered if a post office box in one of the other districts would be enough?