Twocubdad

I have to say once your application is accepted at the service center, the process goes very well. When the council registrar gets the application, she verifies all the data and signs under Req. 6. If there are any discrepancies, the registrar contacts the troop to figure it out. Once it is approved, the district advancement chairman is contacted and assigns the packet to a district Eagle board representative. The district contacts the troop and schedules the board of review. It's up to the troop to work out a convenient time between the Scout, the board and the district rep.

One of my Eagle Scouts served a term as QM while playing high school football. He consistently showed up a half hour late for troop meetings with wet hair and his uniform in a grocery bad. He rarely made campouts, but when we showed up to the hut on Friday evenings to head out on a campout, there was a pile of gear in the middle of the room and a note with instructions. When we returned Sunday he would be standing at the hut waiting to help unload. Did I sign off on his POR? You betcha. Unfortunately, that is by far the exeption. I do expect to see a demonstration of leadership from boys in positions of responsibility. As noted, that's fairl obvious for SPL, ASPL, PL or troop guide. But I expect the troop scribe and QM to demonstrate leadership by leading and organizing the patrol scribes and QMs too. If a scout purports to hold a position of responsibility within the troop, we expect that they will lead by means of setting a good example, if nothing else.

We've done this several times and it's a great hit. In planning the surprise grocery items, I try to reverse engineer a couple receipes. For example, last time we included a chicken breast for each Scout with green peppers, onions, a jar of spaghetti sauce, a small baggie of flour, a box of pasta, butter or oil, an dozen eggs, bacon, a can of cream of mushroom soup, ham, cheese and bread. The patrols were told to think outside the normal breakfast/lunch/dinner options and think what they could come up with by crossing ingredients from what was obvious. A couple things happened. First, we got what we wanted from a couple patrols. One put together a chicken catchatorry (sp? obviously) with the spaghetti sauce, peppers and onions. Another did a casserole wapping the chicken with bacon, ham and cheese and pouring the cream of mushroom soup over it all. We also got some really great omelettes for breakfast. The other cool thing was that for a long time the patrols all brought onions and peppers on every campout. Instead of plain hot dogs, they added grilled onions and peppers. Instead of scrambled egges, we got omelettes for breakfast. THAT was the real outcome we were looing for.

I don't have a problem asking the Scouts to complete the application, that is clearly explained in the 12 steps. Neither do I have a problem with asking for the essay on personal goals, which they slip in on the application. At least is all laid out in the documents and everyone is playing by the same rules. I do have a problem with councils, mine included, which require Scouts to collect letters from their references and refuse to accept a Scout's application without them when the published policies specifically prohibit that. Either follow the rules or work to get them changed. Isn't that what we teach the Scouts?

You guys are still think of pre-PC Disney movies like Ol' Yeller, The Nutty Professor, Love Bug or even The Ghost and Mr. Chicken. You've got to think of the all the recent PC movies -- Mulan, Pocohantas, or Hunchback of Notre Dame: down-trodden minority overcomes all odds to win the hearts of their oppressors. Using that formula, Lem will be a conservative talk radio host and Whitey will be an undocumented immigrant. Hoodo will be transgender and the rest of the troop a variety of militant feminists, minorities, and atheists. Lem finally sees the light when, on a troop hike, Whitey and Hoodo rescue Lem from the cliff using Hoodo's feather boa.

I was never much for the candles, jars, ropes, doo-hickies hanging from the den flag, etc. I'm a big fan of the Law of the Pack. No one pays much attention to it anymore but there's a lot of good stuff there you can tie to behavior: A Cub Scout follows Akela, A Cub Scout Gives Good Will, etc. I did seven tours as a den Leader, three as Cubmaster and five as day camp director. Whether I was dealing with 8, 80 or 400 boys, my discipline policy was always that in order to get to do the thing Cub Scouts do, you have to behave like a Cub Scout. In other words, either behave or go home. Most boys -- and parents! -- eqate this to being suspended from school. That's fine in the short run. If they're freaked out at the idea of being sent home it helps keep them in line. But in practice, the few times I sent a boy home I tried to down play it. "Billy, I've asked you three times to settle down but you're still misbehaving. You seem to be having a bad day so I'm going to ask your mom to take you home now. We'll see you next week and hopefully we'll have a better day." The bottomline is behave or go home.

There's a whole lot of grey area in BSA policies, but this ain't one of them. The Scout's obligation is to choose his references and list them on the application, contact them to make sure they are willing to be a reference and, if the council asks, give the references envelopes and form letters from the council. Period. Beyond that the Scout is out of the process. If the reference fails to provide a letter, it is up to the council to track it down. If a reference doesn't come through it can't be held against the Scout. Look at the alternative: through no fault of his own, a Scout's advancement is held up or denied because his reference is a slackard, or forgetful. Not every boy is in a community where potential references are professional folk, accustomed to writings letter and understanding the process or it's importance. Should we hold the failure of a reference against the Scout? Let's just call this what it is. Council advancement committees don't want to be stuck with the aggravation of tracking down what could be hundreds of overdue reference letters. Councils don't want to pay staff to do it and volunteers don't want to get stuck with it. So they dump it on the Scout.

All of which points to the wisdom of conducting the EBOR within the troop, plus a representative from the district advancement committee. The majority of the folks sitting on a Scout's EBOR have known him for years and watched him grow up in Scouting. The letters become unnecessary.

We've gone over what the black-letter policy says many times -- 600 times apparently. The problem is that councils just don't follow the policy. Our council requires the Eagle candidate to solicit, collect and submit four letters at the time his application is submitted. Without the letters attached, the Scout Center staff will refuse to accept the application. Of course they provide no rejection letter, course of appeals or even a receipt showing that the Scout attempted to submit the application which could be important if a Scout is up against his 18th birthday. No Scout is going to risk his Eagle to create an appeal situation. As a generalization, most Scouts and Scouters have a "let's follow the rules and all get along attitude" and don't want to rock the boat. Consequently clear policy violations are tolerated for years until the wrong kid gets his tail caught in the door and files an appeal. If the people charged with enforcing the policy don't follow it, what do we do?

Because that's the state of TV journalism, OGE. It is better to be first that to be right. Unfortunately, news consumers are getting what they ask for. When I took journalism in college, there was a debate about balancing the news people want vs. the news they need. Apparently that debate has been settled in favor of the wants. When something big is going on, folks turn the TV on and flip between all the news channels looking to see which channel has the latest speculati--- um, news. The networks have done the math and know which side of their toast is buttered. If you turn on CBS for an update and they've gone back to "As the World Turns" waiting for confirmation of the facts, you change the channel. In an emergency or "breaking news" situation, people would rather listen to a talking head blathering on with any rumor or speculation than they would wait for solid, confirmed news. And the networks are going to give you what you want. God bless you Uncle Walter, where ever you are!

We've got so many folks going in so many different directions during the summer, it's hard to drum up much support for high-end trips during the summer. Attendance at weekly troop activities is usually 50% or maybe a little less during the summer. We tried taking advantage of the long Labor Day weekend a year-and-a-half ago and went on a longer, out-of-state campout, but attendance was very disappointing. June is a normal meeting month. School's not usually out until the 15th and we go to camp the last week of June, so we meet as normal to prepare for summer camp. We go to a modified schedule in July and August, mainly because it's too dadgummed hot to hang out at the un-air conditioned hut. We do meet at the hut one night per month so guys who need to do so can catch up on admin stuff, advancement, boards of review, etc. The rest of the weeks we're off doing stuff. Mountain biking at a local park, water skiing/tubing, swimming, volleyball tourneyment, one night we went fishing but that didn't work out too well. Honestly, the summer activities are in somewhat of a rut -- no one has had a new idea in a while. But I suppose the Scouts like what we're doing. The weekend school starts we have our all-day, all-night troop junior leader training session. First campout of the fall is the first weekend after Labor Day.

Joisey! Good to hear you're still around. Haven't heard much from you lately. Nolesrule -- I stand corrected. I was writing off the top of my head and assuming language from Star and Life.

This is such a grey area, I tend to agree with da Beav that if the troop has set clear expectations of how POR time will be credited, then no one has much of a beef. Personally, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for a 17.5-year-old who is just now getting around to serving in a POR. If there really are extinuating circumstances beyond the Scout's control, he could do a "Scoutmaster-approved leadership project" as provided for in the requirements. We're dealing with this on a very minor scale in our troop. We go to a modified program in the summer. June is a normal troop program, preparing for summer camp which is usually the last week of the month. We go to a modified program for July and August. Activities are preplanned in the spring and pretty much on auto pilot for the summer. For example, one week we will meet at a local park for mountain biking. No program, no meeting, no plan -- just show up and ride. Another week we'll go to a neighborhood pool and swim. Again, nothing for the PLC to do, just one of the adults clearing it with their homeowner's associations. Consequently, the guys with PORs over the summer don't do much for those two months, although we have always given full credit. The concern is more of a fairness issue between fall and spring terms. This coming election cycle we're going to shift our troop elections back a month so that terms run Feb. thru July and Aug. thru Jan. This way the two slower months are split.

Irsap -- in asking your question, I'd say you did a pretty good job of answering it. For all the reasons outlined below (mostly by Mafaking), there is going to be variation from program to program. I teach at National Camp School and our mantra there is "the program is flexible, policies are not." As far at the grey area stuff, it's fair to take some of the horror stories you've read about here as ask. How does a troop decide what good enough looks like? How do they handle boys who aren't performing in a POR or don't measure up to the troop's definition of Scout Spirit? I'm going to disagree with Eagle92 and some others about having your son be the one to ask these question. Of course he needs to talk to the SPL and other Scouts to have his questions answered. But I absolutely believe as a parent you have an OBLIGATION to ask, understand and be comfortable with the program in which you are enrolling your son. You are making a commitment for your son to be part of an organization for the stated purpose of influencing ou son's character? And you're going to let the kids handle it? Your son need to do his own due diligence and make up his own mind, but you need to do the same and be in a position to guide your boy toward a good choice.

What is the Wood Badge refresher course? For folks who took the old course does this equal them taking the 21st century course?

Wens, Why does't someone have a friendly, sincere talk and ask the lad several questions: Does he feels he did his best as Instructor? Does he feel he did the job and met the requirement to the best of his ability? If he could do it over again, how would he do the job differently? If he had an opportunity for a do-over, does he think he could do a better job? Would he have a better sense of accomplishment or pride in a job well-done if he could do the job the right way? Would the other Scouts in the troop would have more respect for him if he served another term and showed everyone what his best looks like? If he took the time to serve another term as Instructor (or in another position) would an extra 6 month really be a big deal? If he were offered the chance to serve another term would he take it? I wonder where that conversation would go?(This message has been edited by twocubdad)

We recharter in Feb. Recharter packets are distributed beginning at the Dec. RT to anyone with a resonable chance of getting it to the proper people. And it's only about counting heads and parting with money.

Wens, since you consider the situation with the OA Rep as precedence, does that mean no Scout in your troop will ever have to fulfill a POR satisfactory? At what point do you correct the sitution and how?

Annual Dues: $90 Summer camp: $240 Campouts: $10-$15 (usually 8 or 9 a year) This generally covers the cost of food for the patrols and is handled within the patrol. If you want steak, you pay for steak. Last year we went snow skiing which cost about $40. We'll go water skiing/tubing over the summer and ask kids to kick in $5 to cover gas for the boats. Canoe rentals for a trip in the spring was an extra $5. We also charge new Scouts a one time equipment fee of $125 which is payable over two years. A couple years ago all the troop gear was shot and we decided the best route was to start over. When we started talking about fund raisers, the parents voted to just write checks instead. Now we're adding Webelos as such a rate that we're having to ourfit one or two patrols every year. For that reason, and out for fairness to the guys who paid for the equipment orginally, we've continued with the fee.

Yes, the Board of Review absolutely has the right to deny an advancement. It is not a rubber stamp and as Scoutmaster I do not believe that if I say he advances he should advance. (Sorry, Eamonn, but if I were Committee Chair, I would accept your resignation.) While one of their functions of the board is to evaluate the overall troop program and report back to the troop committee, its primary function is to determine if the Scout as met the requirements for the rank. While it's not a re-test, a well-trained board understands how to get at this without tossing the kid a rope and demanding he tie knots. For example, if your Scout appeared before me I may ask what subjects he taught as an Instructor. Hopefully, the kid will tear into a long discussion of the three or four subjects he's accomplished with, how he makes the instruction fun and a story about how cool it is to watch the light bulbs come on when his students finally "get it." On the other hand, if the answers I get are a lot of "I dunno" and grunts, I'm going to dig and really question the boy about his service as Instructor. If the board doesn't feel he completed the requirement satisfactorily, the board may ask the Scout to step out while they contact the Scoutmaster for clarification. As SM, I've been called into boards when kids have gone into brain lock and couldn't remember anything about a particular requirement. In the end, the Board of Review may deny the rank to the Scout. If so, they are obligated to provide in writing their reason for the denial, what the Scout needs to do to meet the requirement and the process for appealing the denial, if the Scout chooses to do so. All this is laid out in the Advancement Committee Guidelines and Policy manual which should be available at your local Scout shop. This sounds to me that your advancement committee and Scoutmaster are out of sync in terms of their expectations of the program. I don't know enough about the situation to say if the committee, Scoutmaster or both are out of line. I absolutely agree that you need to sit down with the Scoutmaster and work out the differences. Personally, I agree with the board on the point that as a Life Scout candidate they need to hold this kid's feet to the fire. They're right. Now is the time to have that conversations, not in another six months when they are facing the same issues at his Eagle Board of Review. Currently there's another thread open about minimal standards for Eagle Scout. One of the most important points in that thread is that Scouts who are doing borderline work need to be challenged from Tenderfoot on -- don't wait until their Eagle board. It sounds to me like this board is doing just that.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Did you read their web site? It sounds like they're most interested in protecting the copyright on "Bright." Trust me, no one is going to steal this idea..... This thread has been brought to you by the California Nut Growers Cooperative

Get online and download the Eagle project workbook. It will give you some general ideas and and outline of the info you need to collect for your proposal. But be warned that there is a great deal of variation council to council as far as what they are looking for in a project and proposal, so the advice to talk with someone local is sound. I encourage the scouts in my troop to come up with three project ideas before they settle on on. That encourages them to think outside the box a bit and not focus on one too much (which does not seem to be your issue). It also gives them a couple backup projects in the event their first choice falls through (it happens). As for ideas: outside scouting, what other organizations are you involved with? Are you a member of a church? Do you play a sport? Are you part of a community band or theater group? Do you spend a lot of time at the local library? The best projects are the ones which have meaning to you and allows you to give back to an organization or program from which you have benefitted. So maybe your church, the library or the ballfield where you play has a need you can meet. I had a Scout for whom reading and books was an important thing to him. He did a project for the school library at his old elementary school. Another did a project at the neighborhood playground where he played when he was a kid. Another kid built shelves and storage lockers in the bandroom at his old middle school. Another guy built an outdoor classroom and campfire area next to the Scout hut (projects which directly benefit Scouting aren't allowed, but since the hut was a church-owned building that one got by.) Maybe you have a favorite park or non-Council-owned campground where you enjoyed camping. Good luck!

Is it possible there is a good reason for the COR not wanting to split the den, like not having sufficient meeting space for two dens? As providing meeting facilities is a primary responsibility of the chartered organization, that would be a legitimate concern of the COR. It's a reasonable question to ask before ticking off your sponsoring organization. The neighboring pack to ours was like that. They had all the dens meet the same night in their church's Sunday school rooms. There was a finite number of rooms and the church put a limit on the number of scouts in each den. They felt too many was unsafe and led to an abuse of the facilities. Every year the pack leaders would come to school night sign ups with a shopping list of how many slots they had open in each den. "Well take four Tigers, two Wolves, five Bears...." Our pack was wide opend and took all comers.

All Things Bright and Beautiful God Bless America This Is My Father's World Amazing Grace

Not long after we started Cub Scout -- I suppose 8-9 years ago -- our troop was at about 100 boys and decided to split. It got ugly. Among other things new troop tried to cherry-pick it's members and recruited only the "right" people to go with them. As it turned out, mostly the younger boys and leaders went to tne new troop. They were the ones with the younger brothers in the cub pack. Those boys were locked into going to the troop with their older brothers and they convinced their friends to go with them too. For about three years all the Webelos from the pack went to the new troop. I was Cubmaster at the time and had to juggle all the conflicts between the two troops over Webelos campouts, Scout Sunday, Crossover, etc. More that once I thought about telling them both to put it in their ear and go with a third troop. When my older son was a Webelos II he and a few of his friends decided to go to the old troop. But by then the average age in that troop was 15-16 and there was no thought of a new Scout program. The troop did very little camping. The older guys like going shooting or climbing or the like, but at the end of they day they were more than happy to head to the house. The whole "split" thing just about destroyed the troop. It's been a very long process to get the troop back to where we are today -- easily six years. And the other troop isn't fairing any better. Because they don't have a "brother pack" (I really don't like the term "feeder") their membership is very stagnant. For the past couple years they've been on the brink of folding. Needless to say, I am strongly against splitting troops. What do you do with a 100-Scout troop? I don't know, but I've not seen a split work. My suggestion would be talk with your district executive about the need for additional troops and especially packs in the area and working with the district committee to grow more units. Most mega-troops are fed by mega-packs. More and smaller packs will eventually lead to more and smaller troops. It's a long-term solution, but doesn't include the bloodshead that most "splits" do. T