SR540Beaver

qwazse, I know it goes against the 300 foot mandate and patrol hikes, but this is where adults come in handy in the absence of mature, responsible youth. I remember a day hike in the Ouachita National Forsest in southeastern OK back around 2004. The troop we were with back then was small, maybe 10 boys. Half of them were scouts who had just crossed over. A couple of the older guys didn't like our leisurely pace and before too long, they were nowhere to be seen. They said they would wait up ahead for us to catch up. Seems they came to a fork in the trail and went the wrong way. After about 20 minutes down the wrong trail, it became more and more apparent that they didn't recognize anything along their trail. They ended up having to backtrack where they found us waiting for them. The troop I'm with now is about 50 to 60 boys and we do high adventure trips each year. The troop's 2012 Philmont crew is already doing shakedowns a year in advance. Anyone who decides the rest of the crew is moving too slow and takes off on their own will not like the conversation he has with the crew chief. Safety first.

"A couple in the party had gotten ahead of the rest of the troop and were on top of the boulder, which dislodged." Whatever happened to the slowest person setting the pace and the group staying together?

How sad. My prayers are with the families and troops of these boys. That being said, this is an observation I've made here before and it isn't intended to offend anyone, although I'm sure it will. Has anyone else noticed that many of the deaths of scouts tend to be LDS units in Utah? Why is that? Do the leaders not avail themselves of the safety training BSA provides?

Eagle92, 4 years between your project approval and EBOR? I'm sure you weren't the first and you won't be the last, but there is some expectation that you do the project following the approval and come back shirtly thereafter for your final review. 4 years is a long time and I can see why someone who wasn't involved on the front end might have questions.

While I admire any boy wanting to stretch and grow, sometimes their eyes are bigger than their stomach. My personal feeling is that a boy should be able to design and carry out a project on his own. Now, that certainly doesn't mean that he can't seek out people with more knowledge than he and pick their brains and learn from them. But somewhere there needs to be a dividing line and it moves depending on the boy, his age, his abilities, his resources, etc. Putting on a first aid clinic is one thing. Deciding you want to do brain surgery is a whole different matter. As an engineer, you know what he is facing. If it concerns you, then there is probably good reason for concern. I understand you not wanting to use the NO word. Back to that eyes bigger than the stomach thing. While a project looks sexy, the actual planning and carrying out can quickly become very disheartening. Just raising the funds alone for a project of this magnitude could stop it or severly slow it's progress. Have you considered steering him to the SM or someone n the troop or even having a conversation with the ranger about having a discussion with your son about the scope? Our district is one of those that wants to see "something" built in a project. Creating a new trail isn't good enough. No, you need to construct signs of benches along the trail for it ti be a "real" project. We are fortunate in that our SM is an engineer and he deals with each Life Scout to go over their plans prior to their EBOR to get approval. WE are a large troop, he has been SM for over 10 years and he knows what the BOR's are looking for. He can look at a boy's plan and tell them that it is far to simple and needs detail added or that they are getting in way over their head. I know that with my son, he would listen to the SM before he would ever listen to me.....and I knew that his wasn't a walk in the park. It was fairly ambitious, but doable if he recruited the right people. Good luck!

BM's in the shower. Why do some kids do it? It's beyond me. I attended the 2005 and 2010 Jamborees. In 2005, all we had in our subcamp were portajohns that were like a suana. Step inside one of those sitting in the sun around 3 PM in mid-july and you'll instantly lose 10 lbs sweating. The boys had showers made out of 2x4's and black plastic. We had to send older boys along with our younger boys to ensure they got to take showers. Other older kids would literally jerk a little kid out of a shower so they could take one and then throw their clothes over the side on the shower structure in to the mud. While I was looking forward to Jamboree again in 2010, I had lingering thoughts of enduring the portajohns and he youth having shower issues again. Much to my surprise, we had wonderful facilities. The latrines were trailers with running water and real honest to gosh air conditioning. The showers were air conditioned too and were either converted cargo containers or 18 wheeler trailers with stainless steel showers. Suh-weet!!! Until kids started trashing the air conditioned latrine trailers and taking BM's in the 18 wheeler showers. Not to mention we had kids from across the Jambo decending on our nice facilities wheich meant our kids would end up having to go to bed dirty because curfew rolled around while they stood in line for a couple of hours. The crews that cleaned the latrines refused to clean them due to them being trashed so bad and the subcamp shut them down and the boys had to walk a good distance to portajohns. They couldn't really shut down the showers, but we adults had to start policing them and having kids show us their credentials to make sure they were from our subcamp to be able to use them. The one bright spot was that the troops from our council contingent took it upon themselves to go get cleaning supplies and clean the latrines and showers in order to get the privileges restored for the subcamp. I've never understood the rush some kids get from vandelism and ruining something for everyone.

Rules are never fun, but the only place I don't have to follow rules are in my inner thoughts. Rules are everywhere. Always have been, always will. Believe it or not.......in my OWN home, I can't throw my clothes on the floor, leave dishes in the sink, run naked thru the house yelling woo woo or leave the lid up on the toilet. Well, I could.....but I've learned there are benefits to following the rules. As dumb as I think they are, I tend to follow them. Things seem to work better that way and I find in the long run that following them didn't really impact my enjoyment of anything.

We camp one weekend a month except the month of summer camp. It has to be Armageddon for us not to camp. The only time I remember us not camping, there was an inch of ice on the roads statewide. We meet every Monday night, year round except on the holidays. That is the "norm". We also do one to two high adventure crews per year, have guys who staff summer camp, day camp, cub resident camp, cub fall family camping and OA Ordeals and fellowship weekends.

Then there is this group out of Fort Worth, TX that has been discussed in years past, but nothing on their page looks newer than 2003. http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/index.html

What the boys in a troop do depends a lot on the culture of that troop. I've seen some troops that in the name of boy led, take a totally hands off approach which often leads to chaos. One troop I was associated with had boys that were lazy and didn't want to cook, so they bought pop tarts and raman noodles. The laziness got so bad that they wouldn't even boil the water for the raman, they'd just knaw on the dry brick of noodles and chug water. Program on a campout consisted of standing around the fire all day and poking sticks in it. one kid had a habit of unzipping his tent door and peeing inside the vestibule so he didn't have to put on his shoes and walk at least to the tree line. These are the troops where the kids might wear a uniform shirt with their basketball shorts and flip flops. Then you have other troops where the adults realize that boys don't automatically know how to run a troop. They keep a watchful eye on leadership and mentor where needed. These are the troops where there was a good deal of adult mentoring to get the ball rolling and then it takes on a life of it's own with teaching and training being passed down from boy to boy. This is the kind of troop I'm associated with now. What do our boys do? They get together once a year to plan their calendar. They start out by doing two things. They decide program they want to do and places they want to go. Then they match program to place and pck the best month to do it. Some adults attend, but they observe and only give input if asked. Once the calendar is set, boys volunteer for which event they want to be the planner for. These are usually older boys who have already had experience with planning. A younger boy volunteers to be his assistant planner to learn the ropes. An adult mentor volunteers to assist the boy planners should their help be needed. This planning consists of a schedule for the weekend, program planning, campfire program and Scout's own service. The PLC meets weekly before the troop meeting to fine tune that night's meeting and conduct any other business needed. They meet once a month to plan out the next month's troop meetings and make assignments for training sessions and game time. Patrol leaders are responsible for making sure the patrol plans a menu, duty roster, collecting grub money and seeing that someone serves as grubmaster before a campout. Troop meetings are run by the scouts based o ntheir pre-planning and the most as adult does is possibly make an announcement. All gear is checked in and out by the boy QM's and the trailer loaded by them. It is their responsibility to tag items in need of repair and bring it to the attnetion of the adult QM. Our new Scout program is run under the leadership of usually 3 TG's under the supervision of a couple of ASM's. In fact, the last several TLT's have been totally youth run by some of our Scout's who have served on the NYLT staff. Of course, a lot of that is easier to do with 60 scouts from 11 to 18 instead of 6 scouts who are 11 to 13 years old.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Ah yes, Circle Ten Council out of Dallas! I've attended a WB course director's conference at their council offices before. Huge population center, so lots of WB and NYLT courses per year. Most people are impressed to hear that my council holds 2 per year, but we don't hold a candle to Circle Ten.

deaker, I agree with everything Eammon said. I will however say that I ended up staffing a WB course because I let a particular CD I knew know that I would be interested in staffing. It wasn't calling in a favor or anything like that. She had been on staff for the WB course I went thru and that is how I first became acquainted with her. Later on I ran into her when my son was still a Webelos and she talked to me about signing him up for the 2005 Jamboree because he would be old enough when it rolled around. I threw my hat in the ring and applied for adult leadership and was fortunate enough to be selected. She ran things for Jambo from the council side. When I heard she was going to be a CD, I emailed her and told her that if the opportunity existed, I'd be open to staffing, but understood she had lots of people asking and was fine if she didn't have a spot for me. She did. Now, I can tell you as a three time staffer that we all keep our eyes on participants to see if there are any who would make good future staffers and pass their names on. Some are great scouters, but just do not have the personality or presentation skills to staff. While nothing my come of it immediately, it never hurts to put a bug in someone's ear that you are interested. Often, we make our own "luck".

SP, Woodbadge overstaffed? I've served as a Troop Guide and had my hands full. I've served as a QM with two AQM's and we worked out butts off. I've served as ASM-Program and backup CD with responsibility for the Scribe abd his two assistants and didn't get in bed before 1 or 2 AM each night. WB staff positions are well defined with a set of job responsibilities and my experience is that each staff job has plenty to do to keep you busy the entire course. I've never seen a WB staffer sitting around with nothing to do. Let me rephrase that, I've never seen a WB staffer who sat around who ever staffed a second course.

troop366eagle, I would never just give a boy JASM because he reached Eagle. Our JASM's are guys who obviously are 16 which is a requirement of JASM and have served as SPL. Even then, it isn't an automatic thing. It is a decision of the SM on each individual. While most of our Eagles are great guys, we've had a few stinkers who met the letter of the law on Eagle requirements. A good JASM, they would not make. JASM isn't a reward, it's a job.

moosetracker, You showed up to a WB course unannounced? Had I been a CD, I probably would have sent you home. There is a ton of planning that takes place prior to a course and much of it is dependent on knowing who has signed up. WB budgets are tight. When I served as QM, I had to plan meals for X number of people. Do we build some leeway in? Of course we do. But if we had 10 folks show up unannounced, we have a problem. A course can only have a max of 48. If we have 45 signed up and 10 show up, we have a problem. When I served as ASM of Program, I had to handle all the printing of materials.....for X number of people. If one shows up unannounced, we have a problem. Printing isn't cheap and resources to pump out an additional copy at camp were practically non-existant. The CD puts alot of planning into who goes into which patrols as they try to get a good mix of experience to inexperience and diversity. This is based off of information registered participants send in prior to the course. If someone shows up anannounced, we have a problem. Maybe I'm reading what you said wrong, but why in the world would you think it is OK to decide at the last minute to take the course and just show up? This isn't a Fast Start class at Roundtable. Edited to add: You start the first morning as a numbered den. When you have the Blue and Gold at lunch, you cross over into your patrol. It is at that point that you learn which patrol you are in.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

neil_b: "When I went to WB I did not feel I had enough time to think about my ticket items or enough time to discuss with my troop guide. We went from one presentation or activity to another with very little free time in the schedule." The schedule is designed to keep you moving and has little if any free time built in. Each of those presentations and activities build off of one another and all work together in part, to get you ready for developing your ticket. The time to actually put pen to paper is the two weeks or so inbetween weekend one and weekend two when you can go back home and discuss it with your unit leadership. From my experience, TG's will usually ask you to stay in touch with them during this period to counsel you as needed.

Do not pre-build your ticket. Your ticket is an agreement between you and your Troop Guide. Your ticket needs to be written around your position in scouting. Your Troop Guide will lead you in understanding that a ticket can only contain the things you have control over. For instance, never write a ticket that says I will help 5 boys earn the XYZ merit badge. You have no control over whether the boys will earn it or not. Instead, you would write a ticket that says I will teach the XYZ merit badge to enable scouts to earn the MB. You will also be guided by your Troop Guide to discuss your ticket with the appropriate person back at your unit. If you are an ASM, it would be the SM. If you are a Committee Member, it would be the CC. You would need to make sure they are on board with your ticket items. You don't want to come to an agreement with your TG, come home and announce some great ticket item you are going to do only to have your SM say, "NO, you're not!" I'd encourage you to take WB when you feel like it. Many moons ago, I registered as the Pack CC in April and took WB in September. I never regretted it. But you need to wait until you get to WB to develop your ticket. The information you learn the first weekend will help you focus, decide and shape your ticket. Don't jump the gun. There is plenty you can do now to start moving your troop towards HA without doing big ticket items.

JoeBob, saying torture is OK and it works is easy. But as Pack has pointed out, the devil is in the details. Given the details, where do you draw the line?

Does everyone "need" to take it? No.....and that is coming from a 3 time staffer. Will it hurt anyone to take it? No. When has additional training ever hurt anyone? I think any scouter should be open to it, but they need to do it when and if they feel the time is right. Back when I registered as a volunteer in a Pack, I did so in April and took WB in September. I never had any regrets taking it that soon.

I once saw something that served for a long time to teach our boys not to play with flammable liquids. I do not suggest anyone duplicate this method. We had a campout that involved a lot of wood cutting. By the ned of the day, everyone was tired. Come time for the campfire, the guys in charge of the fire lay did a poor job and couldn't get it to burn. All they were getting was some smoldering. The SM who at times can be a hot head (no pun intended) was tired and had had enough of the repeated attempts to light the poor fire lay. In his tired and frustrated state, he stormed off and grabbed his gas can he had used for his chainsaw and walked up to the fire and poured gas on the fire. As you can imagine, a ball of flame jumped up about 12 feet in the air. This caused him to jerk backwards which just served to douse himself with gas which ignited. Seeing your SM running in flames is a great deterrant to playing with gas around a fire. It made an impact. Fortunately, he got it out quickly and only had some second degree burns on his face. He really is a great SM and extremely safety conscious. He let his tired and frustration get in the way. It was a lesson to all of us about not using gas, keeping our cool and always thinking about the example we set. As far as a boy playing with gas, he loses his fire chit and has to re-earn it and he has to teach fire saftey to the troop. That's what our SM did.

I'm with Gunny here. For me, it doesn't matter if the men going for supplies were not in uniform or even registered. Even if they are only there for transportation, they have a job and they are setting an example. What if they had one too many? What if they had a traffic accident? How do the boys who rode with them get back home? These guys have a responsibility and they are acting immaturely. Honestly, I've never understood the folks who seem to need to drink for relaxation and fun. My disclaimer, I was raised in a Southern Baptist home where anyone who drank was an alcoholic and they were all going to hell! There has never been a drop of alcohol in my parent's home, so it was just never a factor in my life. My brother's wife on the other hand comes from a Catholic family who can't get together without it looking like a Shriner's convention. All of her brothers bring at least a 12 pack to any family function and will consume it all before the function is over. Her brothers drink at least a 6 pack per night. It is just the way they were raised. I know plenty of people who drink 4 times in one night what I drink in a years time. So, I recognize that alcohol consumption and attitudes about alcohol vary widely. If a person can't go from Friday night to Sunday afternoon without having to have a cold one, they need to stay home. I don't have a problem with adult beverages, but they have their time and place and a scout outing is not one of them.

I know this is the issues and politics forum where we have a little more leeway, but some of you should be ashamed of your behavior.

I know there are some folks that will jump on this like a duck on a junebug. We are a very boy-led troop, but when it comes to patrol formation, the SM has a hand in it. He has a pretty good understanding of which boys will work well together and which boys won't. We do a new scout patrol(s) each year that begins in February and around October or November, they get assimilated into our mixed age patrols. How we handle inactive scouts is we form our patrols a little on the heavy side in way of numbers. Instead of having a patrol of 6 to 8, we will have patrols of 10 to 12. We balance out the active scouts with the sports and band kids and the fair weather campers. Even if only half the patrol showed up for a campout, you have 5 to 6 boys present. It has worked for us for years now. All of that being said, we do quiz the new scouts on which patrol they would like to go to and quiz the patrols on which new scouts they would like to add. If a boy really doesn't want to be in his patrol, we are sensitive to that too.

My son earned his Eagle in December. What an Ordeal. He is a shapr kid and a great scout and he did fine. That being said, our district is one of those that pretty much expects something "built" as part of a project. If you are revamping a trail at a park or camp, that isn't good enough. You need to build benches or signs to go with it. No collecting blankets for the homeless or anything like that. There needs to be a hammer swinging. This is in stark contrast to our neighboring district where a boy did a flag retirement demonstration to a group or people as an Eagle project. Our EBOR's are pretty picky on the write up too. So much so that our troop pulls out the stops to help. We have a Life to Eagle coordinator and the SM acts as quality control. He knows what the board is looking for and will read your write up and mark it up with a red pen for you to correct. He doesn't find you a project, tell you what to write or anything like that. He just knows where the pitfalls are and helps you avoid them. We had one scout who decided to not avail himself of the help the troop provides and did his own. It took him 3 BOR's to get it approved and 2 BOR's to get it signed off. The boys who avail themselves of troop help usually make it first try. While I don't agree with it, the troop is now wanting to do a mock BOR to prepare the boy for the real deal. It seems to me that when you have to go to those extremes to get a kid thru an EBOR, something somewhere is wrong. The workbook, the project and the EBOR should be such that a 14 to 15 year old boy can read it, understand it and do it with a minimum of adult involvement. Why councils and districts have to make it so difficult that it requires troops to jump thru hoops to assist a boy to earn Eagle is a mystery to me. And before anyone says it, we are not an Eagle factory......we just find we have to do what we do to level the playing field enough for a kid to make it without t hrowing his hands up in disgust and walking away in tears.

The Last Frontier Council is more than 30,000 youth and more than 8,000 volunteer Scouters and adults in 24 counties across central, western, and southwestern Oklahoma. We have 12 districts. My district is just one quadrant of Oklahoma City and at last count, I believe we have 21 troops, 31 packs and 2 crews. (This message has been edited by sr540beaver)