SR540Beaver

Beavah, You haven't been doing your due diligence if you don't know who Gary Johnson is. He is one of those rare ducks like Ron Paul who walks the walk and scares the bejesus out of both sides and the media. Like Paul, the media ignores him unless you watch the libertarian leaning shows like Freedom Watch with Judge Napalitano, John Stossel or Neal Cavuto on Fox Business. He keeps qualifying for the Republican debates over other mainstream candidates, but keeps getting denied because he isn't a "top tier" candidate. From wikipedia: Gary Earl Johnson (born January 1, 1953) is an American businessman, former Governor of New Mexico, and candidate for the Republican nomination for President of the United States in the 2012 election.[2][3] He served as the 29th Governor of New Mexico from 1995 to 2003, and is known for his low-tax libertarian views and his regular participation in triathlons. Founder of one of New Mexico's largest construction companies,[4] Johnson entered politics for the first time by running for Governor of New Mexico in 1994 on a conservative, low-tax, anti-crime platform.[5] He beat incumbent Democratic governor Bruce King by 50% to 40%. He cut the 10% annual growth in the budget by using his gubernatorial veto on half of bills in the first six months.[4] His use of the veto over his two terms gained him the nickname "Governor Veto".[6][7] He sought re-election in 1998, winning by 55% to 45%. In his second term, he concentrated on the issue of school voucher reforms,[8] as well as campaigning for marijuana decriminalization. During his tenure as governor, he adhered strictly to an anti-tax, anti-bureaucracy program, and set state and national records for his use of veto powers:[4] more than the other 49 contemporary governors put together.[9][10] Term-limited, Johnson retired from politics at the end of his second term. A fitness enthusiast,[11][12] Johnson has taken part in several Ironman Triathlons, and he climbed Mount Everest in May 2003.[13] He announced his candidacy for President of the United States in the 2012 election on April 21, 2011.[14] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Johnson http://ouramericainitiative.com/about-gary-johnson http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/ http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/record http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Like BP, I attended in 2005 and 2010 as an ASM. You really don't want to meet at the airport for the first time and take off. We had general informational meetings with scouts and parents for everyone going in all 3 contingent troops. Then we had monthly troop meetings, usually on Sunday afternoons for several months leading up to Jambo. Towards the end of May, we would have a shakedown at one of our council properties that was mandatory for the boys and leaders to attend until released on Sunday. By that time all of the purchased equpment like tents, awnings, chairs and table had arrived and the boys got to learn how to set up a troop site within the confines of a standard Jamboree plot. They also erected their gateways they had been building. We would run a typical Jamboree schedule complete with a commisary for them to pick up thier food to cook. While it is still mass chaos once they actually arrive at Jambo, it goes a long way to making it run a little smoother. As far as price, if you can go for $1850, that's a bargain. In 2010, it cost us $3,000 to come from Oklahoma. Keep in mind that any activity like this has a certain percentage that the council adds on to go to their coffers (never admitted to or advertised). Then there is the equipment, air travel, tour bus rental, touring, hotel and restaurant factored in during the DC tour phase. Those items really drive the price up. Our council is one of those that has troop matching daypacks, duffle bags, tshirts, hats, water bottles,, footlockers etc all color coded by troop. It is my understanding that the 2013 Jambo will supply all of that per scout this time and take it out of the council's hands. Cut out touring and you can drive the cost down significantly and make it more affordable to more scouts.

I certainly can't give you a definitive answer, but having been an Evangelical Christian for the last 47 years of my 54, I think I know the mindset of the kind of folks who are against it. You have those folks who are literalist and fundamentalists who see thinga like the Masons and the OA as competing for loyalties within a person. Not too long ago I remember nosing around on the internet over a Catholic apologist who was dead set against any Catholic chartered units from allowing boys to be part of the OA. He had gotten his hands on the ceremonies and disected each one with hand written notes in the margins about how it was worshiping false gods. He took exception to the use of a fire ring in the ceremonies as well as other odds and ends. To him, the OA was taking away from God and trying to win people over to the other side. I won't go into any other details as I want to maintain the element of mystery within the OA. This goes along with the evangelists I would run across growing up that preached against things like having owl symbols or artwork in your house because owls represented evil. Or how the old kitchen witch dolls some people used to have hanging in their kitchen invited demons and evil in your house. Then there are the preachers who had rallies to burn records, cassettes and later CD's of that devilsh rock music. There are even some who preached that movies like ET were designed to desensitize children to the demons who would eventually physically inhabit the earth. I've also heard preachers speak on casting demons out of washing machines and other inantimate objects. Often, these are the folks that see evil in service oriented organizations like the OA. I honestly did experience all the things I just mentioned. I heard it, but I never understood or agreed with it. Some folks do.

My picks and in this order: Ron Paul Gary Johnson Herman Cain in a distant third The rest of the social conservative and establishment field can go pound sand. I'm with libertarian talk radio host Neal Boortz on this, if we nominate a social conservative over a fiscal conservative, we will hand the Presidency to Obama for another 4 years......and we can't affford that. The economic survival of this nation is at stake and it takes precedence over all else. If/when we get our fiscal house in order and put people back to work, then we can have our spats over marriage amendments and such.

A guy named "Beavah" has a problem with calling the government the "gubmint", eh. Seriously? Here's an adult question for you Beavah, do you borrow 40 cents on the dollar every month to pay your bills? If not, why not? Is that sound fiscal policy? Should all Americans follow the example of our government? And copping out by saying that the government is different and sound fiscal policies don't apply the same doesn't count. I already stated my opinion, we have a spending problem, not a revenue problem. If this president and the Congress had any real back bone, they'd do the right thing, they'd cut spending X% across the board. It's what we do in business at budget time each year when things aren't going good.

I was on vacation last week and I'm NOT going to wade thru all 8 pages of this thread. Not raising the debt ceiling would not cause a default on our obligations. A debt ceiling is the amount of debt we are allowed to carry. Think of it like the spending limit on your credit card. As an example, you can borrow up to $5,000 and no more. Hit the limit which is based on a number of factors like your income and other debt and you can't charge anymore to that card. Why? Because you can't afford to pay back any additional debt you incur. The US has money coming in every month thru tax revenues. Enough money to pay the interest o nthe debt, pay social security, medicare, the military, etc. What they don't have enough to do is pay for everything they've obligated themselves for......which is why they borrow 40 cents from China for every dollar they take in thru taxes. We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. Our eyes have been bigger than our stomachs. We are like a kid in a candy store. If you are drowning in credit card debt, what does a financial planner tell you to do? Call the credit card company and ask for an increase in your credit limit or to tighten the belt, meet your basic obligations and pay off your debt. You don't give an alcoholic a drink and you don't give an addict a fix. Likewise, you don't give the US gubmint more tax money. They've already proven they have a spending addiction.....very often for silly things. You tell them to go to Washington, sit down, make the hard decisions they were elected to make, get their spending under control and pay of their debt. It doesn't happen over night, it will take a long time, but it is doable. I don't count myself as a tea partier, but I for one appreciate them actually acting like the adult i nthe room and drawing the line in the sand. The gubmint must shrink and spedning must be controlled. Handing over more of our money simply means it will be added to the pile they already get and spent instead of being used to reduce our debt. Less money in our pockets means the economy does even worse.

I'm an avid facebook user. Our troop has a fb page as does or council, district, lodge and chapter. Many of our WB courses have a fb page. I have my own personal limitations on which boys in the troop I'll "friend" on fb. More than once I've had a discussion with a boy over the comment or content they have posted online. One was a boy angry at his parents and dropping the F bomb. Another was my Chapter Chief who was dropping the F bomb too. We didn't really have a discussion. I told him that MY Chapter Chief would not post words like that on fb and to get rid of it and I'd better never see it again......and oh yeah, don't you dare block me or unfriend me! Also had one of our committee members whose wife cheated on him and he got pretty angry and salty with her on fb. He had a good number of adults in the troop contact him and tell him to delete his comments immediately. fb has privacy controls where you can severly limit who can see your wall, friend or stranger. That being said, kids have grown up in a digital age and have lived their life online. They haven't fully learned that what they say or do can be seen by a lot of people and it colors their view of you. People have lost job prospects over what they didn't have the common sense to know not to post. Actions really do have consequences. I think what they post on fb is fair game when talking Scout Spirit and how you live your daily life by the Oath and Law. I'd prefer it to be a springboard for discussion and a teaching moment over a gotcha moment under most circumstances. It's a little different when it is your Chapter Chief acting like a twit for the world to see or a spurned spouse. Then you have to call them on it then and there.

Shortridge, To me, a paper unit is one where nothing actually happens and "members" may not even be aware that they are members. I just went out to the site I looked at a couple of years ago and it appears to have been "clened up" now. Crews that used to be listed were high school groups like JROTC or vo-tech classes. There were also local organizations working with kids in need. Being involved the way I am, I knew that none of these crews actually had adult advisers and youth members that ever met anywhere or at any time. The DE would go talk to someone, get the charter paperwork filled out, put names on it and turn it in. Heck, they might even pay the registration fee out of their own pocket. It bumped their numbers which kept them in a job and it bumped the council numbers which made national happy. When people caught wind of these paper or ghost units and a few audits were done, councils started dropping these units. That is a paper unit. A summer camp staff crew comes closer to being a "real" unit, but usually isn't. There are other ways to get staff registered. When my son staffed cub resident staff, all staffers, boy and girls had to be registered. The camp didn't run a crew, they expected you to go join a real unit somewhere. Since the vast majority of their youth staff are in scouting or crews for the girls, that wasn't a problem. Honestly, if I were a camp director, I don't know that I want just any Tom, Dick or Sally coming to staff my camp without scouting knowledge and experience. For an adult to run a shooting range or aquatics program, that is a different story. They can register with the council. Someone mentioned using the Venturing uniform for staff because of the girls on staff. Again, our cub resident camp hired Boy Scouts and Venturing boys and girls and they wore their uniform when needed. But for the most part, they had camp supplied staff shirts they wore with the lower half of their uniform.

E, I believe BSA had a site where you could find units in your area. I don't know if it is still available or not. I took a look at it once and discovered the same thing. Many, many paper Venturing units "chartered" by high schools and various charitible organizations that I knew for a fact had no active units. When you are all about making the numbers instead of ensuring quality, this is what you get.

Buff, Thanks for the expanded detail. God bless you! There is one of those in every council. I'd count my blessings that they are gone and I wouldn't pass their names on to any boy wanting to take a MB they teach. We have one of those overachieving dads.....er, I mean scouts.....in our council. The dad is a real pain. The first time I was aware of him was when his son was still a Cub and my son who was staffing had a run in with the dad. The dad kept questioning everything my son said until my son asked him if he wanted to come forward and teach the session. The dad announced before he ever crossed to Boy Scouts that his son would earn every MB. He was the top popcorn seller in the council. They looked at coming to our troop when he crossed over. We luckily dodged that bullet. The troop they moved to is in a shambles because of dad's actions. He undermined the SM and CC wit hthe COR and gotr them removed. He is now the SM and brought back an old CC who was removed years ago for inappropriate languafe and actions around the boys. Most of the scouts who are still left at the troop are visiting other troops since he took over. I admire that you went the extra mile and tried to make it work. I'm leased that you have them out of your hair now.

I'm a bit confused here. The boy is in your troop, but his parents are ASM's in a different troop......and the scout is also active with that troop until he told you he is switching troops. The parents have never been associated with your troop other than offering MBC services to your scouts. Is that correct? You said she left in a huff over self created drama. Left what? You as SM can exert some control over which MBC's your boys go to simply by only providing them with the names of the folks you approve of. If these folks help staff a MB Fair, you might not be so lucky.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

What Eagle92 said......and honor. It must be stressed to all Arrowmen that we honor the traditions and culture of Native Americans. We are not just dressing up and playing cowboys and Indians.

Eamonn, I have the same objections to summer camp staffs being "Crews". It is a way for the Council to artificially bump the numbers up and the Crew only "functions" for a month to 6 weeks out of the year. My other issue is that they adopt the Venturing shirt as the staff uniform. I realize they do this to stand out, but it is BOY Scout summer camp after all. Let's set the example. The other solution is to do what our Cub Resident camp staff does. The Program Director owns an embrodiery shop and she supplies the staff with red ball caps, polos and t-shirts with the camp logo and "staff" on the shirt. You can pick them out a mile away. Calico, I've never heard anyone make an argument of using a Troop to support a Chapter, only Crews. While not really a fit, a Crew model would fit a Chapter long before a Troop model would. Of the one Chapter in our Lodge who has seriously entertained the idea, they wanted to make a Crew with males and females interested in Native American culture, dress and dance. The active Chpater kids would conveniently all be members of such a Crew. The benefit would be the fundraising possibilities to fund their regalia and travel. Like I said, I gave it a little thought and just didn't like the idea.

I did some googling after typing my response. I just found this and have not finished reading it. This is a Scouting "doctoral" dissertation on using Venturing Crews for Chapters. http://www.palmettocouncil.org/Portals/5/heglar%20h%20h.pdf

Our past Lodge Adviser had a crew years ago when he was a Chapter Adviser. I know of at least one of our Chapters that has discussed doing this. I'm a CA and made the mistake of mentioning this to my DE a year or so ago and he acted like a kid at Christmas. Of course that was because he would get credit for "adding" a new unit for his performance numbers even though we wouldn't really be gaining anything in the way of new scouts. The Chapter Crews I've heard of had an empahasis on Native American culture. The one Chapter who has seriously discussed it was because they felt it gave them more freedom. Our Chapters are not allowed to raise money or keep money. All money goes thru the Lodge and Chapters are reimbursed for expenditures. By being a Crew, they could manage their own money and they saw advantages to that. I have mixed emotions about making a Chapter a Crew. If you are providing a good Chapter program, do you need a Crew? And what about girls joining the Crew? They can't participate in OA and if you use part of your Crew meeting for ceremony practice, they shouldn't be there. I can see professionals being in favor because they will bend over backwards to make Venturing a viable program and also increase their scorecard. In the end, I have decided not to pursue it with my Chapter. Besides, some of my guys are already members of other Crews.

No, it isn't fair.......but it can pay off in the end. My son was there early, stayed late, there every time the doors were opened, not allowed to miss a campout, got extra duties, etc. The idea of service eventually grew on him as a way of life. He ended up an Eagle Scout, Vigil Honor in OA, SPL for his 2010 Jambo Troop, Troop JASM and District Boy Scout of the Year. Along the way he staffed summer camp for three years and served on two NYLT staffs.

Calico: "But we have a situation here where a Scout has expressed interest in the OA and so he must know something about it and a Scoutmaster is refusing to allow this part of the program in to the Troop." Which has never made sense to me. Allowing a boy to be in OA has zero effect on the troop program. Well, other than we harp on the Arrowmen that their first responsibility is to their unit and that they live up to the obligation and set an example......but that affects the troop positively, not negatively. What do they have to lose?

RD, communication is key. Even then, it is a tough row to hoe. I'm in my second year as a Chapter Adviser, but I was involved long before that because my son was active in Chapter leadership and ceremonies. Our previous CA did an outstanding job of keeping the ceremony team alive, but that was about it. There was little communication and no Chapter meetings. In fact, out of 25 troops in the district, our active OA members came from the troop that our old CA and myself serve. I was determined to change that and diversify the Chapter to include scouts from troops throughout the district. We hold elections at the ned of the year for the coming year. In 2009, 9 troops out of 25 let us hold an election. In 2010, 16 out of 25 let us come. That was accomplished thru a lot of hard work and communication. We established an email distribution list, a website and a facebook page in addition to visiting the troops. Even then, we have resistant SM's. Here are the reasons I hear from SM's. OA is a cult. Our boys just aren't interested in OA. We don't have time for that. I don't have time for that. We really don't know what the OA is or does. Those are the things we try to combat, but even with good communication, we have SM's who will have no part of it. I always urge the SM to be the adult nominated from their troop if they are not in OA so they can understand the program and promote it inside the troop to the boys. Much like wearing a uniform, if they see leadership setting the example, thet are more apt to entertain the idea. What I most often get is that they are too busy and overwhelmed as an SM to add OA into their life. I had one SM just smirk at me when I talked to him about an election and he said, "we don't do that". He never would give reason. I suspect it is because his troop is a home school troop made up of boys who took their kids out of other troops so they didn't have to rub elbows with the common kids and that feeling extends to OA since they couldn't control the environment. Then you have the SM's who say, we'll quiz the boys and see if there is any interest. No, OA is a BSA program. Electing a boy to OA is honoring him. Why would you be opposed to that? Let the election team come explain the OA to them, hold an election and then it is up to the boy to decide to do his Ordeal or not. If you just ask them out of the blue, it is like asking them if they want to join the Clown Club. If they don't know what the Clown Club is, they probably won't be "interested". Bottom line, communication and education is key and even then, you will have SM's who enjoy being master of "their" domain and want to keep the OA out. It's sad really, because the OA can enhance a boy's scouting career and his effectiveness at the troop level tremendously.

Here is the flyer for the event. I don't know, as a parent of a 2010 Eagle Scout, this kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Most people I've talked to have a raised eyebrow over it too. Don't the Council Eagles deserve to be recognized in their own right without turning it into a "let's shake the trees for big donors" fundraising event? I can tell you, my wife and I are not spending $242 to attend and that is the only way we can see our son recognized by the council. http://www.lastfrontiercouncil.org/openrosters/DocDownload.aspx?orgkey=2201&id=94551

I know times are tought and councils are hurting just like businesses and individuals. That being said, does anyone else's council do anything like this? In years past, the council always held an annual Eagle Recognition Banquet that cost you the price of dinner. No more. This year, the council is having a "Gathering of Eagles" event. The Eagles from 2010 and any who have achieved the rank in 2011 are invited to attend for free and be recognized for their accomplishment. Anyone else who wants to attend (parents and family included) must pay $121 for Bronze Eagle participation. $321 for Silver and $521 for Gold. By the way, the $21 represents the 21 Eagle required MB's for Eagle. Part of the purpose of the event is to search out Eagle Scout alumni and create an alumni organization within the council. The other part is hoping that they are all successful business men who will donate money. The bad part is tying the current Eagle Scout recognition to this event and expecting those who want to see the Eagles recognized by the council to pay at minimum $121 to attend the 2 hour event. Thank you, but NO! I realize the council has to raise funds. I just think this is a chintzy way of doing it.

At the 2010 Jambo, the shotgun range had shells with the Jambo logo on them. Boys could take a spent shell as a souviner. Just to play it sahe, the SM's collected them so we wouldn't get stopped by security if boys had them in their pockets or carry-on daypacks. Didn't matter, one boy made it all the way home with one in his daypack.

Oh good grief! http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/07/20/boy-scout-leader-jailed-for-bullet-in-fanny-pack/ LIBERTY, Mo. (AP) A Missouri man is home after spending four days in a jail in the Bahamas because airport security found a bullet in his fanny pack. Forty-eight-year-old Darrell Lapp returned Tuesday to Liberty after a scuba diving trip with a Boy Scout troop. His ordeal began last Friday when airport security in Freeport, Bahamas found a .32-caliber bullet inside his fanny pack. He was charged with possessing ammunition and sent to a jail in Nassau. Lapp says he thinks he left the bullet in his pack after a hunting trip. His wife found a lawyer, who was able to get the criminal charge dismissed. Lapp was released from jail Monday night. Its unclear how the bullet was not detected by security at Kansas City International Airport and in Nassau. Copyright 2011 The Associated Press.

I knew an old hippie in a troop I formerly served who used a parachute. It made a good shady area, but it wasn't waterproof.

Hmmm? I always thought staffing the District Committee and Commisioner service had more to do with coercing warm bodies than anything else.

My prayers are with them. Our unit lost a boy about 4 years ago to suicide. An accident or an illness is one thing, but a suicide of a 15 year old boy in a troop is a hard pill to swallow.