SR540Beaver

DLister, Around here, we take the election process seriously....and I'm speaking as an Adviser, not an ASM. I've dealt with two situations this year. I send out an extremely detailed email to the SM's at election time explaining the whole process from top to bottom. I attach several documents to this email. One is a document listing youth and adult membership requirements. Another is the adult nomination form. Then an excel spreadsheet that is a ballot. You enter the names in the first ballot and it autofills on the other three ballots on the page. Print what you need and cut. The last document is the actual election report form so they can see what needs to be filled out concerning things like number of active scouts. One of my teams held an election at a troop and everything went fine. Later, I get an email from the SM praising the job the team did, but wanted to know if it is possible to have a re-do. Why? Well, we have two 17 year old Eagle Scouts who were on the ballot that we adults wanted to be elected and they weren't. Instead, we had some younger scouts with spooty records get elected that shouldn't have. Did you read my detailed email? Did you not understand that the final requirement is the SM placing deserving boys onthe ballot? Do you not realize that you are the final gateway to the ballot? Kids are pretty honest when the voting process is explained to them. Are your older boys active at all? Do they have anything to do with the younger scouts or are they jerks to them? Kids have a different view of the troop and the boys in the troop than adults. I told him the election is the election and the results are the results. The only time we would do a re-do is if we can be shown that the process was subverted in some way or improperly conducted. The SM had to tell the influential parents of these two Eagle Scouts tought luck. The second issue was a troop that held their own election and asked us to do a Call Out ceremony for them. Do what? You can't do your own election, it has to be a trained OA election team that conducts the election. Then you can attend the Chapter Call Out. Seems the DE (Vigil) told them this would be no problem. I've had a little talk with him.

Thank you DLister. BadenP, my logic is not nearly as shaky as your reading comprehension. What happened has been blown way out of proportion to what was originally posted and then followed up on by artjrk. He even said the SM provided a teaching moment and that the team would add full uniforming to their standard practice in the future. No harm, no foul.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Beavah: "If the troop said "No", SR540, would yeh show up at their meeting anyways because you "have a job to do?" Of course not. You recognize that it's their time, their space, their meeting and you are requesting an invitation to come into their scouting "home". Yeh don't just show up uninvited. You are guests at their meeting." Nope, wouldn't show up unannounced, but we will keep contacting them and trying to convince them to let us come at their convenience. Because that is part of our job. We've had far too many of the reluctant SM's say, "we'll ask the boys if they are interested and let you know". We respond, "no, don't ask them. Hold an election. Let the team come tell them about OA. No one has to vote who doesn't want to and no one elected has to complete their Ordeal. This is an opportunity for their peers to honor them, why would you NOT want to hold an election? Hold the election and let the chips fall where they may." Educating these SM's and building a relationship is key. We have 21 troops in our district. In 2009, we were only "invited" to 9 troops. In 2010 it was 16. This fall, we hope to increase it even further. Part of our job is to provide them with election teams and to do our best to impress the heck out of them when they allow us to come. We won't come if they say no, but we will keep working on getting that first date.

Yet the original poster said in his second post, "Also talked to the accompanying father last night, Decided how the first SM handled it was fine. He was discrete and did not try to embarrass the boys. It was more like a learning moment, that they should think about their appearance and how they represent the OA." He was helpful, friendly, courteous and kind. The grumpy old SM, not so much....but we are not made privy to whether he chastised them in front of the troop or not. I would assume if he had, that transgression would have been mentioned in the post. The election team realized they were in the wrong, the SM was correct and they have made a change in their policy for the future. No harm, no foul. Edited to add: I reread the original post. The former SM sounded off to the adult with the team and not the boys.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

You know, I've never actually met a uniform police. Didn't have them when I was in Cubs in the mid to late 60's and haven't found one here in the next century. I also don't remember anyone back in 1966 telling me a patch was out of alignment on my Cub shirt. I haven't seen anyone do that to any of our fully uniformed troop in 2011 either. Alleged uniform police rarely go around barking at boys. Now, if you step out in the hallway and speak to the adults while the boys are running their meeting, you'll get various and sundry opinions just as you do here. Methinks the uniform police is akin to bigfoot. Often rumored to be seen, but no real evidence......unless you count someone being in favor of wearing a full uniform being equal to being a uniform nazi.

Election team invited? Maybe things are done differently elsewhere. In my neck of the woods, it is the Chapters who contact the Troops in their District and make a request to come do an election at the troop's convenience. We kind of invite ourselves. I've yet to have a Troop contact us first. We've never considered ourselves as guests of a Troop, but representatives of the OA coming to explain what we are and how an election is done. We are there to do a job and part of that job is setting an example, part of which consists of proper uniforming. Says so in the OA Guide for Officers and Advisers. One of the problems I run into is SM's who don't know what the OA is and don't care and don't want to know. We had one who has refused to allow an election in his unit for years because the OA is a "cult". More than one person has tried to talk to him, explain what the OA is, what we do and to have his unit nominate him so he can see first hand. Nothing doing. He retired about a month ago and lo and behold, the new SM wants us to come do an election. I know some Lodges have declined and there is a lot of misunderstanding and confusion as to what OA is and does. Simple communications is part of the answer. I'm in my second year as a Chapter Adviser. We created a Chapter website where people can subscribe and receive updates whenever we create new posts. I have developed am email distribution list with every chapter Arrowman address I have. My election teams are required to return with candidate email addresses so I know that candidates are getting timely info that SM's tend to forget to pass on. We produce a newsletter that gets posted online and handed out to each new member at Ordeal that lists any and every OA website address they could ever want. We are proactive. We don't wait for invitations. We contact the units and let them know it is election season and ask when we can come do their election. So in a sense, we invite ourselves. As self invited "guests", doing a job, the obligation is on us to put our best foot forward and set an example to the troop and it's leadership that we are the kind of organization and members that they want to associate with and be like. Wearing a full uniform is a no-brainer for us.

Boy Scouts.....the only uniformed group that doesn't wear full uniforms. Ever seen a marching band in just the top half and everyone else had on different pants? I mean, wearing the uniform doesn't have anything to do with how well they play or march. Same with baseball or any sport. Wear jeans with your shoulder pads and jersey. Wearing fooball pants aren't going to make you run faster or pass the ball further or tackle harder. Does any organization HAVE To wear the uniforms to actually do what they do? Probably not......yet they do. I wonder why? I wonder why it matters? I wonder why it is different in scouting from all the other organizations?

When I refer to Scouting, I mean Boy Scouting...the original program. When I refer to Cubs, I use Cub Scouting. When I refer to Venturing, I use Venturing, not Venture Scouting. They are both programs of the BSA and are similar in some ways, but totally different in others. A Venturing program does not even have to involve the outdoors. A church youth group can be a Crew as can a school thespian club. How do those fit into the fourfold purpose of the OA?

John, John, John.....OA is a Boy Scout program, not a Venturing program. Nothing stops Venturing from developing their own honor program. Sherm, The Order of the Arrow (OA) is Scouting's National Honor Society. The fourfold purpose of the OA is: To recognize those campers Scouts and Scouters who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives, and by such recognition cause other campers to conduct themselves in such manner as to warrant recognition. To develop and maintain camping traditions and spirit. To promote Scout camping, which reaches its greatest effectiveness as a part of the unit's camping program, both year-round and in the summer camp, as directed by the camping committee of the council. To crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others.

The uniform makes for brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country. - Sir Robert Baden-Powell

SP, Being on an election team is a real eye opener for the team and the adult along with them. You get a peek into the troops of your district and boy, are they all different. It is like walking into every house in your neighborhood. Some are clean, some are dirty, some have pets, some don't, etc. We've called on troops that had everyone in troop tshirts. We've called on troops where the boys have on neckers and wear their MB sashes. We've called on troops that have many active uniformed adults and we've called on troops that have an SM and maybe one or two adults in civvies. We've called on troops that have 50 scouts and troops that have 5 scouts. We've called on highly successful troops and troops struggling to survive. You kind of get an opportunity to see how everyone else lives. I don't know what will be reported back to the chapter and how it will affect their election teams going forward. But as I said previously, our election teams know to show up in full uniform....regardless of how all the troops we visit dress. Part of out job as members of SCouting's honor society is to set the example.

GKlose, My experience is that proper uniforming begins with the adults. If adults decide to half uniform, the boys will half uniform.....guaranteed. Boys will never rise to the expectation of full uniform if the adults are not consistent in setting the example. I work in a troop with 50 boys. They and their parents are told up front when they visit as Webelos that we are a full uniform troop. That being said, we never beat boys over the head or send them home if they don't show up fully uniformed. The SM may ask them privately where their pants are or where is their belt, but we aren't uniform nazis about it. Full uniform is just a part of our troop culture. We have a handful of "cool" boys who won't wear the pants and won't put their shirt on until they get inside the building and start unbuttoning as soon as the closing is over. But 98% of them show up every week in full uniform.

OGE, I've been wondering the same thing. Why does the Arab League keep turing to the UN and US for help, then criticize us for how we go about doing the dirty work. It is their neighborhood, they need to step up and do a little policing in their own backyard. Humanitarian issues aside, our Constitution provides for the defense of the US, not the world.

I wasn't lucky enough to get a mentor's pin, but I do have a dad's pin and it is on my left pocket flap.

moosetracker, I hear where you are coming from, but I still think a person stepping up....even a volunteer, has put themselves on a different playing field. Agreeing to help doesn't buy you indulgences, it means willingly accepting a responsibility. For the guys in my chapter, part of that is wearing the full uniform. If thet couldn't afford it, we'd work something out. When we hold our election team training, part of my speech consists of, "you will say yes sir, no sir, yes maam, no maam, please and thank you. You will not horse around. You will be professional in your attitude, actions and appearance. You will wear a full uniform. We represent the honor society of scouting and we will act like it. So far, I haven't had a single boy walk away. I will say that we had a Unit Commish that didn't last very long with our unit. He showed up unshaven, in a wrinkled and stained uniform shirt with a pair of sweatpants on. We asked for a replacement.

I'm a Chapter Adviser. The boys in my chapter who participate in elections and ceremonies know that they always wear a complete uniform when representing OA. Period. We are the honor society of scouting. I don't care what the boys in my chapter do at their own unit, but when they are representing the chapter and lodge, they will wear a full uniform.

I've been reading some medical websites recently. Anyone needing surgery? I'll do it for half the price your surgeon will charge.

Those pesky polls. It all depends on how questions are asked.

Yes, you can easily get 15 nights including a 6 night long term camp in during a single year as well as make First Class. Our troop does 2 nights for 11 months, plus 6 nights at summer camp for a total of 28. High adventure is icing on the cake. I guess where I am getting hung up is the "during the two-year period prior to the election". A matter of interpretation I guess. From the Guide for Officers and Advisers: After registration with a troop or team, have experienced 15 days and nights of Boy Scout camping during the two-year period prior to the election. The 15 days and nights must include one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. The balance of the camping must be overnight, weekend, or other short-term camps.

Packsaddle" "Actually, I've observed LOTS of crowds and I've never seen a pig in a class A...." I have.....well, actually he looked more like Jabba the Hut.

Buffalo Skipper, Just curious about your son being elligible at the age of 11. One of the requirements is 15 nights of camping, (6 as part of a long term camp like summer camp) over a 2 year period. You son would have had to be a Boy Scout at 9 years of age to accomplish that requirement. But I've never been good at math.

SMT224, It depends. On one hand, I'd say that he is out of your troop and none of your business where he goes or what he does. On the other hand, it depends on what he did that got him expelled. If he did something that was harmful to another as opposed to property, then possibly yes. If he pulled a knife on another scout, sexually touched another scout, beat up another scout, etc., then I think a warning to a new SM might be warrented. I understand you not wanting to go into details here and respect that. But the need to inform a new SM of this boy's behavior kind of rests on what the transgression was for me. We had a kid in our troop who was suspended for a period of time. He was always a "problem" kid whose parents always felt he was misunderstood and thus enabled his actions. The straw that broke the camel's back was when he had a knife taken away at summer camp for misuse. He trotted down to the trading post and bought another one. It was taken away from him too. He went and bought another one. It got to the point that adult leadership had to go to the trading post and tell them not to sell him anymore knives. He must have had knives stashed everywhere. He ending up slicing up two of the camp owned tents. His enabling father was the acting summer camp SM for our troop. Our SM always leads the troop's high adventure trip and we use an ASM as SM for summer camp. He packed his sin up and took him home. A BOR was held. There were people who wanted him kicked out. There were others who were willing to suspend him while he got counseling and would let him back in when he made restitution and apologized to the troop for his actions. The latter was decided. Two weeks after the "judgement", the dad proclaimed that his son had gotten the counseling, was all better now and ready to come back. Not so fast! I think we didn't allow him back for 6 months. The boy Eagled this last year right before aging out. Eagle was really more of a desire of his dad than the boy. Was he Eagle "material". Not in my estimation, but he technically fulfilled the requirements. Only you know the details of what this boy who was in your troop did and only you can determine if it was serious enough to warn another SM.

BaldEagle1, Welcome to the forums and the good input. My only issue with your comments is about your friend from your troop who finds WB21C deficient. Yes, you can compare documentation and draw some conclusions. But to make a true evaluation and compare apples to apples, one must actually experience both to arrive at the best conclusion. I have people I deeply respect too, but I take their opinion with a grain of salt when they opine on something they are evaluating from the outside.

I think there are a multitude of things that can be done to improve education, but the key that starts the motor is parental involvement. My son is a senior this year. Each year, it was made clear to each one of my son's teachers that his education was a top priority in our home. If they had an issues, we expected to hear from them and if we had any concerns, they could expect to hear from us. I have emailed a good many teachers over the years (in-between parent/teacher conferences) when we had concerns. In grade school, he brought his papers home every night and regardless of anything else we had to do, we went over them with him and had him correct anything that was wrong. We had a concern that his straight A's were a result of this extra coaching at home and wondered if he was "really" an A student. We talked to a few of his teachers who all told us the same thing. AS long as you are showing him which answers are wrong and having him figure out how to do it correctly and are not giving him the answers, then you are doing it the way it needs to be done. As far as what kind of student he is, that shows up in his testing more than his daily papers. While every parent things their kid is an exception, most kids are "normal or average". They will however rise to the expectations given them. That being said, my son thankfully got the smarts gene from his mom. He entered the gifted program in grade school and has taken many honors classes thru junior high and high school. He has an unweighted GPA of 3.81 and scored 29 on his ACT. Because of his academic achievements, he has a decent scholarship and has been invited to participate in the university's Honors College. I don't say any of that to brag. I just want to point out that we could have been hands off during his education and accepted any grade he brought home. Without us being supportive, making education a priority and providing expectations, he could have limped by on C's and turned his mind to higher pursuits like some of his buddies who planned on being skateboard stars as adults. The intelligence and abilities of individual kids is going to vary, but parental involvement makes more difference in the quality of their education than any other component of education. Just my two cents.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Basementdweller, Yes, there are some who have expressed negative feelings towards the course, but they usually fall into two camps. Those who are old course guys who think WB21C just doesn't measure up and those who like you, attended a poorly run course. We are fortunate in that we have been running two courses per year at least since WB21C came out and have it down to a science somewhat. While we always have at the very least, 30% new staff on each course, we have a lot of continuity thru the Council WB committee and former staffers and CD's. We have learned from our mistakes and follow our best practices. The one BSA mandate that we don't follow is the three staff development sessions leading up to a course. Even when the time is managed well, it simply isn't enough time to put the course together to be the best possible experience each staff member has dedicated themselves to put on. There are a lot of hours, blood, sweat and tears put into offering a good course with the best staff possible and well balanced patrols.