SR540Beaver

Jet526 - "I don't understand why it is so difficult to get ceremony teams." For a variety of reasons. We have a Chapter per District. My Chapter is in a major metropolitan area and there are 21 troops in our district, so getting to and from ceremony practice is a 10 minute drive for most team members. Some of our Chapters are rural and cover several counties and only have a handful of troops. They have a much harder time getting a team organized and staying committed than we do. That being said, I have 8 commmitted boys and 3 or 4 on the sidelines who aren't very dependable. Even with my 8, I have no assurances that they are going to be available on an Ordeal weekend. Some play sports or are in band. Some are involved in church activities. Some work. I managed to get my 8 guys to committ to Spring Ordeal, but those 8 guys will do Pre-Ordeal, Ordeal and Brotherhood, so we are double dipping from some of these guys. Add on top of that they spent a couple of months perfecting their Webelos Crossover ceremony and providing it for about a third of the Packs in the district and are now learning the Call Out ceremony and they get spread mighty thin. Where have additional team members is my dream, most kids look at all the extra the active Arrowmen are doing and say no thanks. They don't want to add weekly ceremony practice, monthly Chapter meetings and extra campouts into their scouting schedule. The upside for me, I get to work with some of the best of the best as my guys are leaders in their troops, do high adventure, staff summer camp and are either Eagle or well on their way. They are the go getters.....which is why they got involved in ceremonies.

Scouter.com is provided free of charge and as far as I can tell, will continue to use this old outdated forum software. Until it modernizes to something like vBulletin....and I don't see that happening, we have what we have. That isn't a complaint, just an observation. Depending on configuration, it would allow us to have avatars, post pictures and videos in our posts, use all sorts of formatting options, allow you to subscribe to threads, etc. It also allows the moderators to ban the occasional troll with the click of a button. As I said the other day, vBulletin is around $200 and I'd gladly throw in $10. That of course doesn't address the server space needed for all the extra added benefits like posting pictures. At one time, there was another competing forum that used vBulletin, but it never really had the same traffic that Scouter had and whoever the ower was, shut it down.

moose, Unless recent changes were made in WB (I last staffed in Spring 2010 and was the back up CD), former staffers can hold the same position again except for the CD. In our council, that rarely happens, but I have seen a few people do TG twice. a few former CD's can be invited back to serve on support staff by the current CD. That means they do the cooking and pot scrubbing......and can serve as a mentoring resource to the CD. I think the difference between WB and NYLT in relation to the CD is that in the old days, WB in many councils became elitist and you were either deemed worthy or not in the little feifdom. WB21C did away with the good old boys club....if the rules are followed by allowing a CD to only serve once and expecting 30% new staff per course. By allowing some staff to return, you have continuity. In our council, we have a WB Committee that is partially made up of former CD's that also provides for continuity. We put on two course per year and pretty much use a best practices approach and have the process down to a science. Much better than reinventing the wheel with each course, but manages to keep it from becoming a good old boys club. Except in some instances I'm sure, NYLT has never had the "status" that WB had at one time as an exclusive club. It just wasn't as big a deal to be the NYLT king as it was to be the WB king in a council. At least that is the case in our council from my perspective. We've done a great job with WB, but a lousy job with NYLT. Our record is spotty at best. They have now put together an NYLT committee to mimic the process used by our WB comittee and get some continuity going. I believe from what I know from the folks I know on the committee, a CD would only be used twice if they simply couldn't secure a person to do a future course....and I don't see that being a problem.

We have them put on tight black pants, white and black striped shirts, red suspenders and berets with white face pant and mime each skill. The guys absolutely love it and pick up each skill immediately. Sorry OGE, I couldn't resist the hijack. Carry on!

Could any of the nay sayers point me to the BSA literature on EDGE where it says that the boys have to do some formal analysis of the situation and determine that the planets are aligned correctly in order to use classroom lecturing with charts and graphs? Again, you guys are missing the forest for the trees by over thinking this. Edge is as simple as when one boy sits down on a log next to another boy and shows him how to tie a square knot. That is all it is and it is what has been going on in scouts for 100 years. Whe here has not seen one boy explain what a square knot is used for, demonstrate how to tie it, guide the other boy thru tying it and then sitting back and letting him do it on his own? Exactly how else do you teach your boys how to tie a knot? Use a mime? I'll bet you a pilot biscuit that my kid working one on one with a boy on how to tie a square knot will have him up and running in half the time as the mime. I'd bet you some gorp that half the kids will get frustrated trying to imitate the mime's actions and just walk away since he can't answer any questions. People, it is a simple skill teaching technique that predates scouts by 10's of thousands of years.

NJCub, NYLT has gone "program neutral" like Wood Badge did when they did away with the various forms and combined all BSA programs under one umbrella. It ain't just for Boy Scouts anymore. I've not seen the new syllabus, but I assume it still uses the Troop and Patrol structure even though it is co-ed with the inclusion of Venturing. What really makes all of this fun is that with changes that have come down in the last two years in WB and NYLT, you can attend NYLT up to 21 now as a Venturer and turn around and attend WB at 18 as a Scouter.

I still think we are over thinking this. Where and when you teach is individual to each troop. We're a larger troop with about 60 on the roster and our new scout class ranges in size from 12 to 24 any given year with the majority crossing over in February. We typically have 3 Troop Guides who work with them. We split the new scouts out during the skill session portion of the troop meeting. The new scout patrol(s) are learning basic skills and the other patrols are working on more advanced skills. We are blessed with a large meetig space and we will actually get 2 or 3 tents out and let them learn how to set them up in the comfort of a room with no wind and plenty of light. The TG's whether they realize it or not use EDGE to teach setting up the tents. There is information they need to know which is part of the Explain portion. Hey guys, we sometimes take our tents into bear country, so there is no food ever allowed in tents. We unzip the doors completely when entering or exiting the tent, we do not open them a foot and dive into them. Then they Demonstrate the correct way to set up a Eureka Timberline tent, some of which date back to the 80's because of the care and maintenance they receive. As they Demonstrate, they continue to Explain. You stretch the tent out on the ground, locate the door and point it in the direction it needs to go. You assemble the poles. You take the "cheese" to connect the poles to the ridge pole. The cheese has to be turned the right direction to set the tent up properly. Once you have the frame put together, you start snapping the tent body to the poles and ridge pole. Etc., etc.. etc. until the tent is erected. Then it is taken down with Explanation and Demonstration on how it is packed and rolled and placed back inside the bag. OK, now you guys have heard and seen how to set up and take down our tents. Divide into teams of three (the number of boys per tent) and work on setting it up. We will be here with you in case you have any questions or run into problems (Guide). Hey you did great. This time, lets try it without us assisting (Enable). Great job guys. It is important that you see and do this now so that when we go on your first troop campout in a few weeks, you aren't trying to figure out how to do this in the dark and cold. Don't worry, we will be right there with you at camp (using EDGE to reinforce the skill session) and we'll get the tents set up. It might take a while the first time, but the next campout it will go faster and better and by the third campout, you guys will be pros and will be able to teach someone how to do it. I watch this happen year after year and we are successful with it. It sure beats trying to teach them how to set up a tent at 10:00 on Friday night when the wind chill is 28 and sleeting sideways. Is it going to be mass chaos? Of course, but at least they have had instruction and hands on in a controlled environment to help keep them from freaking out. WE want to set them up for success instead of failure. EDGE is that simple and I've seen it work for every T21C skill required for advancement. The time and location depends on what you are working on. If people are going to get hung up on the term EDGE because someone sitting at a desk in Irving thought it up, then don't call it EDGE if you don't want to. But truth be told, if you have a boy run program using the patrol method, this is what is naturally happening anyway. Throwing a tent at a kid and bark at him to set it up and set it up now just doesn't cut it. I've seen that method and it doesn't work.

I have the solution to Kudu's 100 Wood Badger dilemma. It doesn't matter who or what method is used in his scenario as long as you seperate the two patrols being tested by 300 feet. That is the pixie dust that will overcome the evil Wood Badgers ruining Scouting. Seriously guys........it is a little foolish to be arguing over something as small and insignificant as a simple, easy to remember teaching tool and the acronym used for it. How in the world can people get tied up in knots over Explain, Demonstrate, Guide and Enable? Is EDGE really the downfall of Scouting as we know it? If you're going to slay "dragons", go big.

Maybe people assumed it disappeared before Jambo because they clicked on it then and it still hadn't come up by January.

Hey, we are under a burn ban and there are stories on the news everyday about the fire departments fighting raging grass fires. We have an OA Call Out ceremony and a Brotherhood ceremony this weekend and we are working out the fire details. The Council Properites guy and Ranger say that propane and liquid fuel are OK since they don't put off embers like wood does. We are experimenting with building a rock firepit with a Coleman stove in it using a small canister and the ceramic logs out of a gas fireplace. We switched to using refillable tiki torch canisters in our smudgepots last year and we've been told they are OK.

TwoCub, 20,000? Nope. 50,000! A lot of folks for 1,000 acres. Check this out. https://summit.scouting.org/en/Jamboree2013/Pages/default.aspx Get ready! The 2013 National Scout Jamboree is coming and it ain't your father's jamboree. We're talking seriously high adventure, people! Whitewater rafting, zip-lining, rappelling, mountain biking, hiking, and more - with 50,000 of your closest friends at the brand new Summit Bechtel Reserve in the wilds of West Virginia. I liked the lunch kiosk system in 2005 and 2010 because you got fresh, cold food in the heat of the day. Lunch was actually my favorite meal of the day as the breakfast and dinners were a little too kid friendly at times. If kids are going to have to carry lunch with them like they used to, I fear it is going to be a dry trail lunch. Maybe not. I just dont want to carry a squashed meat and cheese sandwich in my daypack for 4 or 5 hours. I don't want 10 days of Slim Jims, beef jerky and processed cheese and crackers either. According to the info I posted, even the duffle and daypack are provided by Jambo. Our once concern on this end is that we color coded our troops and it was easy to pick out our guys by their bags as well as their contingent hats. If 50,000 people have the same bags, it will be hard to find your guys and easy to mix up bags. Since they provide the equipment, it raised a question for me. Will equipment be a part of your Jambo fee the way it was part of our contingent fee in the past? Will they hang onto tents for four years and reuse them or sell them off when it is over? Will Jambo cost say $795 like before or will it be $1200 to cover equipment? A conversation that popped up yesterday amongst us local Jambo'ers is the inclusion of Venturers. Will Crews be the same size as Troops with 36 youth and 4 adults? Will they be required to purchase and wear uniforms like the Scouts? Will they wear a Jambo necker? I wonder if the move to Troop cooking has to do with Crews being included? Other than internal structure and logistics, will Patrols even matter? I don't have any heartburn over mixing the Troops up instead of going by Region.

Perdidochas said, "I'm in the field of Instructional Design (ABD (all but dissertation (meaning I've done all the requirements for a Ph.D. in the area, with the exception of the dissertation." Of all the folks I know on here aside from our professional educators, I'd say Perd is as close to an expert as we can get for something like the usefulness of EDGE. I'd certainly take his word on it over say an attorney. I'm amused at all the philisophical hand wringing over EDGE. We aren't discussing teaching brain surgery or rocket science here. We're teaching a simple physical camping skill. As an ASM for new scouts, we had our Troop Guides using this method before BSA came up with a name. It is a natural way of teaching that has gone on forever. My dad used Edge when he taught me how to fish, mow the yard, comb my hair and shave many decades ago. Anybody remember this? If you look, you'll easily see EDGE. Four steps of Boy Scout advancement A Boy Scout advances from Tenderfoot to Eagle by doing things with his patrol and his troop, with his leaders, and on his own. Its easy for him to advance if the following four opportunities are provided for him. 1. THE BOY SCOUT LEARNS - A Scout learns by doing. As he learns, he grows in ability to his part as a member of the patrol and the troop. As he develops knowledge and skill, he is asked to teach others: and in this way he begins to develop leadership. 2. THE BOY SCOUT IS TESTED - A Scout may be tested on rank requirements by his patrol leader, Scoutmaster, assistant Scoutmaster, a troop committee member, or a member of his troop. The Scoutmaster maintains a list of those qualified to give tests and to pass candidates. The Scouts merit badge counselor teaches and test on the requirements for merit badges. 3. THE BOY SCOUT IS REVIEWED - After a Scout has completed all requirements for a rank, he has a board of review. For Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle Palms, the review is conducted by members of the troop committee. The Eagle Scout board of review is conducted in accordance with local council procedures. 4. THE BOY SCOUT IS RECOGNIZED - When the board of review has certified a boys advancement, he derives to receive recognition as soon as possible. This should be done at a ceremony at the next troop meeting. The certificate for his new rank may be presented later at a formal court of honor.

No takers amongst the Jambo set? I'll start. Likes Maximum distance to arena from any subcamp will be 1.5 miles. No personal vehicles allowed in the jamboree footprint. Permanent camp sites with bathroom facilities. Jamboree will provide all troop equipmenttents, cooking equipment, etc. Program will be more diverse, more intense, and have a higher energy level than previous jamborees. Access to program areas will be limited to jamboree participants. Maintain high standards of Going Safely that was benchmark of 2010 jamboree. Dislikes Plans are to give each participant a personalized, programmable handheld device (the j-phone) with all program data and individual schedules pre-loaded. Participants will only bring a duffel, sleeping bag, and day pack (jamboree will supply duffel and day pack). Food will be pre-packed by troops, with cooking designed for troops rather than patrols. Lunches will be issued with breakfast in the morning so that participants will have them wherever they are.

Avid, See my thread called 2013 Jamboree under Camping and High Adventure.

"Customer" isn't the way to look at Scouting. Who is the "end user" at the bottom...or top depending on how you view it? The kids. All of those "customer" relations up or down the chain exist for one reason.....the end user. Councils, donors and charters are all partners providing a product to the end user.

I was looking at the Summit's website today and came across this info again. I can't remember if it has been brought up here before or not. There are some interesting changes coming to Jambo. A few that stand out, J-phones for each participant, no Regional sub-camps, Venturing Crew sub-camp, Troop cooking instead of Patrol cooking and all Troop equipment provided. Thoughts? https://summit.scouting.org/en/Jamboree2013/Pages/2013-Jamboree-Highlights.aspx Create World Jamboree-Style Scouting Neighborhoods Smaller camping footprint (1,000 acres) than Fort A.P. Hill (5,000 acres). Maximum distance to arena from any subcamp will be 1.5 miles. Twenty subcamps organized into five villages. Much smaller subcamp staff. Troops assigned to promote highest amount of interaction (no camping by regions). One subcamp will be dedicated to Venturers. Almost all adult staff will be housed and fed in the adult camp (6,000 to 7,000). Walking will be the normno personal vehicles allowed in the jamboree footprint. Build Flexible Infrastructure to Support Both Jamboree and The Summit Year-Round Programs Permanent camp sites with bathroom facilities. Underground electricity and fiber optic cable for the entire site. First jamboree will have more temporary facilities. The Summit Center will be designed to function as the visitor experience area. Embrace Cutting-Edge Technology in the Jamboree Operational Model Jamboree will utilize technology at every possible level, from registration through the event. Plans are to give each participant a personalized, programmable handheld device (the j-phone) with all program data and individual schedules pre-loaded. J-phone will entertain and inform participants throughout the jamboree. BSA technology will become part of the jamboree magic. Employ a Seamless Logistics and Supply Operation Jamboree will provide all troop equipmenttents, cooking equipment, etc. Participants will only bring a duffel, sleeping bag, and day pack (jamboree will supply duffel and day pack). Food will be pre-packed by troops, with cooking designed for troops rather than patrols. Commissary will be offsite, with troop food delivered to villages. Lunches will be issued with breakfast in the morning so that participants will have them wherever they are. Deliver a World-Class ProgramConstantly on the Move Program will be more diverse, more intense, and have a higher energy level than previous jamborees. Jamboree will engage Scouts on a more intense program level in areas of interest to them. Program will be daylight to dark. Day of Giving Back. New Jamboree Trek program. Merit badges connected to program areas. Arena shows designed to entertain and inspire youth members. Showcase a Visitor Experience Very Different than the Participant Experience Visitors and participants can come together in the 90-acre Summit Center. Access to program areas will be limited to jamboree participants. In the Summit Center, visitors will be offered a jamboree lite experience with a sampling of jamboree activities, constant entertainment and activities in the arena area, in addition to the exhibit and display areas. Jamboree visitors will be provided an improved experience and charged a reasonable but appropriate fee. Enable a Volunteer-Driven, Professionally Guided Jamboree Staff Opportunity Staff mantravolunteerdriven, professionally guided. No duality of one volunteer and one professional in each major assignment. Less management, more customer-engaged staff. Emphasis on recruiting younger staff members by providing shorter commitments than entire jamboree. OA will provide more than 600 Arrowmen for programs such as Jamboree Trek and Day of Giving Back. Jamboree staff camp will be separated from participant camps, with vast majority of staff housed at this camp. Adult staff camp will provide first-class facilities and food. Go Green, Go Healthy, and Go Safe Jamboree will use absolute best practices of eco-friendly campingan example to other camps. Embrace conservation practices and Leave No Trace camping. Promote childhood health and fitness. Everyone will walk everywhere. Healthy food and drinks offered. Maintain high standards of Going Safely that was benchmark of 2010 jamboree. Sustain the Scouting Movement for the Next 100 Years Jamboree will preserve the best of jamboree traditions while creating new ones. Scouts, staff, and visitors will be introduced to the World Brotherhood of Scouting at The Summit. Offer Scouts, Scouters, and Visitors a True, Once-in-a-Lifetime Experience A jamboree at The Summit will truly be that once-in-a-lifetime experience for all who attend.

I believe we have 31 Packs in our District. The gentleman who is our Troop Committee Chair is also a Cubmaster. His Pack is the last one still chartered to a PTA and he is working to get our Troop's Charter (Methodist Church) to charter the Pack.

I don't see it ever happening. I don't have a daughter, so I have no experience with Girl Scouts. Of the Scouters I know who do have daughters in GS, they all tell me that they are never made to feel very welcome and can only help on the periphery. If they are that "hostile" to men and want to keep leadership almost exclusively female, I don't see them making GS co-ed.

OA elections are unpredictable. Some go exactly the way the adults expect and some go exactly the opposite. Boys see the troop in a different light that adults do. Two examples. We had a dad in our troop who was OA as a youth. He kept complaining to the SM because his son wasn't ever put on the ballot. This kid was a slug. Eve nat 17, he wouldn't go on a campout unless his dad was along. We struggled to keep him out of the adult area and in his patrol. The greatest leadership position he aspired to was Librarian and even then, his dad handled the library for him. Because this dad actually did a lot for the troop, the SM finally decided to put the kid on the ballot to shut the dad up knowing that he would never get elected. Lo and behold, he got elected. We still don't know why, because most of the boys in the troop saw him as a slug too. We did an election for a troop this year where there were two 17 year old Eagle Scouts that the adults thought were shoo-in's for OA. When the votes were counted, neither were elected and the adults were hot and claimed that some younger trouble makers in the troop purposely voted against them and felt that these younger boys were undeserving of being elected. They wanted a new election. We refused. The election is the election and the results are the results. We don't do re-do's to appease the adults. The SM is the gate keeper beyond the minimum requirements and decides whether a boy goes o nthe ballot or not. If he felt the younger boys were not up to snuff, he shouldn't have put them on the ballot. I also explained to the SM that boys view the troop differently than the adults do. We might think that a 17 year old Eagle Scout is well deserving of election. But is he still active in the troop? Is he helpful and friendly to the younger boys? Is he a total jery to the younger boys when adults aren't around. My experience is that the boys are fairly honest in their voting when the process has been correctly explained by a trained election team.....which my teams are. They didn't like it, but they decided to live with it. The best that an election team can do is learn their material and present it correctly. Then they need to have a Q&A session with the voters. We explain that it is not a popularity test and what they should be looking for in a candidate. We do explain that they can abstain from voting if they so choose and/or they are new to the troop and don't know the candidates well enough to make an informed decision. It is explained that no discussion, campaigning or vote trading can take place. Fill in your ballot and turn it in. Because some of the election team guys have wanted to wing it in the past, we have gone to using the election video created by National OA to present to the troops. This is followed by the two OA election team members using a cheat sheet to review some of the videos key points. Then they have the Q&A and pass out the ballots. It is a two pronged approach. The SM needs to "certify" quality candidates and the election team needs to do a good job of presenting and following the procedures. That is your best bet for having good quality elections and results. But even then, the boys can totally surprise you.

SMT224, This isn't meant to be argumentative, so please don't take it that way. You say that you guys always have a fire going. As a Campmaster at one of our council properties, I've observed troops that do that. What I've also observed is that those troops tend to be a little lighter on program than troops that don't have fires thru the day. When you have a fire, someone has to tend it. What I've seen are a gaggle of scouts sitting around the fire all day poking sticks in it. Nothing wrong with down time and an opportunity for bonding, but they tend to sit in camp all day. They tend to be smaller troops too. I serve a troop with 50 boys. 50 boys can't all get around a single fire and we really don't want 6 different fires going (5 patrols and the adults). Each campout has a PLC planned program and the scouts are out of camp except at meal times. The only fire we have is for our campfire program on Saturday night. I'm just curious how keeping a fire burning for the duration of the campout affects your program. I do realize that every troop is individual and operates differently. As far as burning up deadfall to reduce fire hazards.......just how much firewood do you guys go thru in a weekend?

This is pure conjecture on my part. How many troops in this day and age use an open fire to cook their meals on a consistent basis? I mean every patrol cooking breakfast, lunch and dinner each campout over an open fire? Probably the same number who set up floorless canvas tents, trench around their tents and make piles of pine needles to put under their bed rolls. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with teaching to cook over an open fire. I just think that most troops cook their meals over a stove of some sort these days and that is what played into it. I could be wrong.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Sherm, Regardless of the "branding", the traditions and ceremonies of the Order have not changed.

"For instance, it's illegal to drop fish entrails into streams and lakes in Minnesota." Just curious, do the Mini-so-da fish that die in the lake realize they are breaking the law?

Oak Tree, Agreed. However, not everyone is as careful as you or I would be in a common camping area about the handling of food. I never go to a campground under the assumption that people before me used a cooking area away from the tents and food suspended from trees in another area. Our SM has very strict rules about food in tents or in summer camp sites. 99% of the places we camp have no bears, but once in a great while like this past weekend, we venture across the border into Arkansas where they do have bears. The snickers bar you enjoyed last year before going to bed could get someone hurt this year. At summer camp, the thinking is that snacks around camp invites mice which invites snakes. We have a variety of venomous snakes around here. I guess it depends on the fishing scenario. If you are literally camping right down on the waters edge and walking out of your tent to wet a line, you'd be kind of foolish to throw the guts on the rocks or into the trees next to your campsite. But I still maintain that wildlife are all around us when we are in camp and we are just unaware. They use the lake, stream, river, pond, etc. as a watering hole and a food source regardless of whethewr we are tossing guts around.

The only tie I've seen with a modern uniform was an emo kid in our troop who liked to occasionally wear a skinny black tie.