SR540Beaver

Polar bear isn't a BSA or council program. It's just a patch you can purchase to recognize cold weather campers under your unit's own rules. Each unit does their own thing around here. The basic rule of thumb is that it has to get cold enough for unprotected (bucket, bottle, etc.) water in camp to freeze overnight.

John, A scout is trustworthy. All the election team can do is explain the voting process to the adult leaders, SPL and scouts in a troop concerning the elligibilty of a candadate and what guidelines they should use in making their votes. They monitor to make sure there is no talking and wheeling dealing going on. Beyond that, we accept the votes on their honor to be trustworthy. Do some people game the system or abuse it? Sure. My current VC of Ceremonies was dying to get in OA for three years. He was either not put on the ballot by the SM or he was overlooked for the more "popular" scouts who got elected. Funny thing with this troop, the same exact kids kept getting put on the ballot, kept getting elected and kept not completing their Ordeal. Yet you had this one kid who wanted in so bad he could taste it. He finally got elected, showed up for his Ordeal, showed up at the next chapter meeting and is now on of our officers. Even when the scouts are not "trustworthy", it seems to work out in the end. Kids elected because they are popular usually don't darken our door. Kids who have a drive and desire to be part of something bigger than themselves throw themself into it and run with it. The porcess isn't perfect, but overall it seems to work. As I said, I have no strong feelings one way or another on girls being allowed in OA. You said that you think someday the BSA will spend big bucks in court over a discrimination case......they can more easily afford it than an individual girl and/or her family that bring suit. I'm no lawyer and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I'm willing to bet that a court would throw it out. If not, it wouldn't go well for the girl. In your scenario, a boy is co-registered in a Troop and a Crew. His election is thru his Troop and has nothing to do with the Crew. The fact that both the boy and the girl are in the same Crew has nothing to do with her elligibilty in an organization of a program she is not a member of. Right or wrong, BSA has been to court over freedom of association and being able to bar gays and atheist from their organization. I think trying to force the OA to allow female Crew members into a Boy Scout honor society would fail in court.

Methinks you just like to nitpick and argue as a sport. I've attempted to explain it from a variety of angles, but it is obvious that your mind is closed to anything but your personal feelings on the subject. If not, I can not help you with your reading comprehension issues. I've had far more people understand and agree with what I've said than the one person who takes exception to what I've said. I think I said it earlier, we will just have to agree to disagree.

emb021, Our Lodge Adviser often points out when talking to adults, "while there are some of us with a position patch that says adviser on it, all adults in OA are advisers."

John, I stand by what I said earlier. If there is a double standard in OA, then there is a double standard in all BSA programs. Whether it be Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturing, etc., we are not participants in the youth program. We may do program elements right beside them and backpack or camp or go to Jambo, but we are there for a totally different reason than the youth are and we should all understand that. OA is asking no more of an adult than a troop is. I can't tell you how many times I've seen new parents counseled in a troop that they can't camp in the patrol, they can't cook for the boys, that they can't do little Johnny's advancement work for him, etc. They aren't scouts, they are registered adults who support the youth program. For me, this is a no brainer. Look, I go to Conclave and Fall Fellowship and the Lodge Banquet and I have as much fun or more than the boys do, but at the end of the day, I'm there to support them.....and that often means giving them a ride. I don't view my role as an ASM any different than I do my role as a CA. I'm there to lead by example and provide support so the boys can squeeze every last drop out of whatever they do. If adults find offence in being asked to serve and support the youth in any aspect of scouting, that is up to them. For me, that is what I've always understood my role to be. As far as girls in OA, I'm sure it will come someday. I have no strong feelings either way. My take on it is that the OA is a unique program of Boy Scouts and not Venturing. The BSA is a broad organization with a number of different programs that serve different demographics. I look at it like a university with football, baseball, track, basketball and wrestling. You are all sports programs of the same school, but just because you play basketball doesn't mean you can be on the football team and doesn't make you elligible for the Heisman trophy. If you want Venturing girls to be able to be in OA, then you need to merge the two programs into one and allow girls to be Eagle Scouts as well and Boy Scouts to shoot pistols. Venturing was designed for a specific purpose and it has it's own unique program elements from scouting. Two different programs entirely. One has an honor organization and one doesn't. There is nothing stopping Venturing from developing their own.

In the three troops I've been associated with as well as many of the other troops I'm familar with, they do an easy breakfast and pack up sunday morning. Most try to be back home between noon to 2:00 at the very latest.

SP, Is there a double standard in your troop? Are you in a patrol? Do you run for office? Do you plan the campouts or the menus? Do you vote in the PLC? Do you set up your tent in a patrol's campsite? Do you do merit badges, Scoutmaster conferences or BOR's? What are you planning on doing for your Eagle project? Or as an adult, do you support and facilitate all of those things for the boys......while getting to participate and enjoy campouts along side them. Is there a double standard or are you getting to have it both ways? The OA is no different than a troop. Boys are boys, adults are adults. Their purpose and actions are different depending on their age. You are part of the troop and you get to partake in the program of the troop, but your function there is far different that the youth's. Do you complain or get bent out of shape that the troop wants you to teach a MB, handle a fundraiser, go to summer camp or drive boys on a campout? I doubt it. That is why I don't get your whole adverse reaction to the same expectation in the OA. We are the adults. Our job is support of the youth program. We should be honored that we are considered to be the kind of servant who would go beyond the troop level to support other aspects and programs in scouting. But it isn't required, it has to come from the heart.

SP, Of course you can have it both ways. Other than being a 1st Class scout, the same qualifications for a boy applies to an adult. The main difference is that a boy is elected by his peers and an adult is nominated by the committee. But the same qualities are sought. Just like in a troop, adults are their to support, mentor and lead by example. Do we adults have fun on troop campouts? Heck yeah! But our purpose in the troop is totally different from the boy's purpose in the troop. And so is it in OA. Even though adults are selected for the purpose of supporting, mentoring and leading by example, it is an honor that you are seen as a service minded person who is in it for the boys and therefore nominated for membership. While still an honor, the OA simply defines the role of the adult in the big picture. It's still OK to have fun and be an adult Arrowman.

Just google "powered by vbulletin". That's how I got these examples. It is probably the most popular forum software in use. It is highly configurable in the way it looks and what features you can turn on. In short, you can set it up to have avatar pictures, signatures, post pictures and videos, quote function for the post you are responding to, a thanks button for post you like, a positive/negative rep system, private messages, etc. Just depends on the person running the board and what features they want to use and how much server space they have. http://www.usmessageboard.com/ http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/ http://www.trekbbs.com/ http://www.conceptart.org/forums/ http://www.thehighroad.org/ Here is their actual site. https://www.vbulletin.com/(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Eammon: "I very much doubt if the Republicans will challenge it. As to do so would add fuel to the President saying that he is doing something about jobs and unemployment while they are doing their best to stop it from happening." The press isn't doing their job to report the truth of the matter. I've copied this from a friends post on a political forum I frequent. I apologize for the length, but the length tells the story of what the Republicans have tried to do for jobs and the economy to only be obstructed by the Democrats. Have Congressional Republicans Done Anything to Help With Jobs and the Economy? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've heard a lot of people say "the reps have done nothing to help with jobs but obstruct obama" and i've heard others respond to this claim "you are lying" Well I think the Republicans have tried to pass bills to help the economy and jobs. Why do I think this? I think this because I actually researched what bills the republicans have passed out of the house. The majority of these are stalled in the Democrat senate sitting on Harry Reid's desk. ALL THESE CAN BE VERIFIED HERE http://www.house.gov/ Rep Bills That Empower Small Business Owners Small business owners are being bogged down by burdensome regulations from Washington that prevent job creation and hinder economic growth. We must remove onerous regulations that are redundant, harm small businesses, and impede private sector investment and job creation. Review of Federal Regulations H.Res. 72 - Passed by the House (391-28) on February 11, 2011 Reducing Regulatory Burdens Act H.R. 872 - Senate has taken no action to date Energy Tax Prevention Act H.R. 910 - Senate has taken no action to date Disapproval of FCC's Net Neutrality Regulations H.J.Res. 37 - Senate has blocked a companion measure by a vote of 46-52 Clean Water Cooperative Federalism Act H.R. 2018 - Senate has taken no action to date Consumer Financial Protection & Soundness Improvement Act H.R. 1315 - Senate has taken no action to date Protecting Jobs from Government Interference Act H.R. 2587 - Senate has taken no action to date Transparency in Regulatory Analysis of Impacts on The Nation H.R. 2401 - Senate has taken no action to date Cement Sector Regulatory Relief Act H.R. 2681 - Senate has taken no action to date EPA Regulatory Relief Act H.R. 2250 - Senate has taken no action to date Coal Residuals Reuse and Management Act H.R. 2273 - Senate has taken no action to date Workforce Democracy and Fairness Act H.R. 3094 - Senate has taken no action to date Regulatory Accountability Act H.R. 3010 - Senate has taken no action to date Regulatory Flexibility Improvements Act H.R. 527 - Senate has taken no action to date REINS Act H.R. 10 - Senate has taken no action to date Farm Dust Regulation Prevention Act H.R. 1633 - Senate has taken no action to date Rep Bills to Try and Fix Fix The Tax Code To Help Job Creators Americas tax code has grown too complicated and cumbersome. We need a tax code that is flatter, fairer, and simpler to ensure that everyone pays their fair share, lessen the burden on families, generate economic expansion, and create jobs by making America more competitive. Small Business Paperwork Mandate Elimination Act H.R. 4 - Signed into law by the President on April 14, 2011 3% Withholding Rule Repeal H.R. 674 - Signed into law by the President on November 21, 2011 Middle Class Tax Relief and Job Creation Act H.R. 3630 - Senate has taken no action to date Rep Bills Aimed At Increasing Competitiveness for U.S. Manufacturers The more that American businesses export, the more they produce. The more businesses produce, the more workers they need. This means job creation. Expanding market access for U.S. made products will be a shot in the arm for businesses small and large and will create jobs. U.S.-Colombia Trade Promotion Agreement Implementation Act H.R. 3078 - Signed by the Preisdent on October 21, 2011 U.S.-Panama Trade Promotion Agreement Implementation Act H.R. 3079 - Signed by the Preisdent on October 21, 2011 U.S.-Korea Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act H.R. 3080 - Signed by the Preisdent on October 21, 2011 Southeast Arizona Resource Utilization & Conservation Act H.R. 1904 - Senate has taken no action to date Rep Bills to Encourage Entrepreneurship and Growth America has historically been on the cutting edge of innovation and technological development, but we are increasingly falling behind our global competitors. We must make it easier for existing businesses to grow and allow more start-up companies to flourish. The America Invents Act H.R. 1249 - Signed into law by the President on September 16, 2011 Veterans Opportunity to Work Act H.R. 2433 - Signed into law by the President on November 21, 2011 Small Company Capital Formation Act H.R. 1070 - Senate has taken no action to date Small Banks' Access to Capital Act H.R. 1965 - Senate has taken no action to date Entrepreneur Access to Capital Act H.R. 2930 - Senate has taken no action to date Access to Capital for Job Creators Act H.R. 2940 - Senate has taken no action to date Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act H.R. 3012 - Senate has taken no action to date Rep Bills Maximize Domestic Energy Production The energy sector is crucial to our economic growth, and high energy costs have a major impact on job creation. We need policies that allow us to harness our abundant supply of natural resources in America, develop new sources of energy, and create jobs here at home. Restarting American Offshore Leasing Now Act H.R. 1230 - Senate has taken no action to date Putting the Gulf of Mexico Back to Work Act H.R. 1229 - Senate has taken no action to date Reversing President Obamas Offshore Moratorium Act H.R. 1231 - Senate has taken no action to date Jobs and Energy Permitting Act of 2011 H.R. 2021 - Senate has taken no action to date North American-Made Energy Security Act H.R. 1938 - Senate has taken no action to date Pay Down America's Unsustainable Debt Burden by Passing an Actual Budget! The federal government is spending and borrowing so much that the United States will soon go broke. Washingtons spending binge has put our nation in debt, eroded economic confidence, and caused massive uncertainty for private sector job creators. It's time to live within our means. Budget for Fiscal Year 2012 H.Con.Res. 34 - Senate has not yet considered a budget of its own

For a little perspective on the hypocritical nature of this issue. http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/banking-financial-institutions/202335-reids-backs-obama-for-ignoring-pro-forma-sessions-he-once-pushed Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), who previously held pro forma sessions to block recess appointments by President George W. Bush, said Wednesday he supported President Obama's decision to ignore those sessions to push through one of his key nominees. "I support President Obama's decision," he said in a statement. "The White House announced Wednesday that Obama planned to recess appoint Richard Cordray to be director of the new Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). However, Republicans immediately cried foul about the move. They argue that because the holiday break has been broken up by brief pro forma sessions, the Senate is not in recess and the appointment is illegitimate....." ".....However, the White House maintains that those sessions, typically held every three days and lasting a few seconds, are not legitimate and can be ignored for the purpose of making recess appointments......" "......On the other side of the argument at that time was Reid, who began holding pro forma sessions in 2007 to block Bush nominees. "I had to keep the Senate in pro-forma session to block the Bradbury appointment. That necessarily meant no recess appointments could be made," he said on the Senate floor in 2008, as Democrats blocked a potential recess appointment of Steven Bradbury to be the assistant attorney general for the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel in the Bush administration........" (This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

That's OK SP, we're used to most OA members choosing to be inactive for a variety of reasons. That's why we like to inform Troops during the election process of what they are looking for in the way of youth and adult candidates. Full disclosure. We want the troops to take the process seriously. There are in each troop, those adults who struggle to have time to assist with the troop. There are those people who only have time for the troop and dedicate themselves to it. There are those people with more time on their hands who desire to help beyond their troop. People who want to serve on daycamp staffs, be commissioners at summer camp, assist in training courses like IOLS, NYLT or WB, serve as popcorn kernels, etc. Those are the people who have shown a desire to serve above and beyond that should be nominated. While they are nominated for the service resources they can provide for the benefit of the boys, it is still an honor to be nominated.

Just like the others, I thank Terry for making this site available. Evidently some of you folks do not inhabit any other boards on the interwebs. Moving to vbulletin software is a wonderful thing. That is what many, many forums use and when set up properly, it is a wonderful thing. I'm glad Terry has decided to make the move. I think everyone will be pleased when it happens. I know I will.

Actually, Harry Reid used the "pro forma sessions" to keep from being in recess to block recess appointments by Bush. Funny how NOW it is a different story isn't it? Some folks respect the process, some don't and some use it strictly to their advantage.

SP, All you had to say was apology not accepted. Since we are being honest with each other, I would appreciate it if you would quit putting words in my mouth. While you are welcome to your own interpretation, it is incorrect in regard to my comments. I think I've done an ample job of explaining things here and it isn't what you think you heard. The other posters seem to get it and understand. We just need to agree to disagree.

SP, from one volunteer to another, I've simply been stating the case for one of the hats I wear in scouting. I'm sorry your lodge has left a bad taste in your mouth. I seem to have offended you. Nothing I said was intended as an offense. I apologize if it was taken that way.

Indeed he is. Just like here, Terry doesn't post much on facebook. Sending him a message on facebook would probably stand a better chance of him reading it than posting on our Scouter dot Com facebook page. Perhaps a private message and a post on our page would be in order. I'm not linked to him on LinkedIn to the best of my recollection, but I'm willing to bet he is a member there as well.

Posted in wrong thread.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

You can try him on facebook. His name is Terry Howerton.

Oh my, if Kudu were dead, he'd be spinning in his grave!

SP, I saw your post last night, but didn't have time to respond. I see others have pretty much said what I wanted to say. I liken your situation to that one person who gets a lemon of a vehicle when everyone else loves the same vehicle. No matter what anyone says about how great of a vehicle it is, your personal experience is different. Looking at the big picture, it's a great vehicle over all, but your particular one is not. I'm fine with a troop not nominating an adult each year. I'm not fine with a troop not having at least one adult who is in OA. That being said, we do our best to educate troops on the adult nomination process because we do want that person who is willing to sacrifice and go above and beyond. That is what the OA is as a brotherhood of cheerful service. While people keep suggesting things we can do to make ourselves more visible so that SM's will consider doing OA, that isn't what we are about. While we are not secretive about our service, we don't do it to be noticed or praised. We do it because it is the right thing to do. An example.....and this isn't to pat myself on the back....is Cub Resident Camp a couple of years back. The camp has a "limit" on the number of attendees that they can comfortably handle. The council not wanting to turn anyone away basically double booked one session to over 400 attendees. This meant that they would have to run two shifts per meal for that session. That meant they needed more people to staff. The kids who were staffing the kitchen were needed to help with program to accommodate the increase. I took a half week of vacation and came an helped in the kitchen. I was there each morning at 6:30, got about an hour to go back to my cabin and collapse on my bed in the afternoon and never got finished before 8:30 in the evening. In addition to all of our other duties in the dining hall, we had to fold all the table and sweep and hand mop the dining hall after each meal because it rained off and on and the floors were muddy. That's hard on a fat old man. There are non-OA members in scouting who step up and do that sort of thing too, but that is what is expected of an Arrowman. Any adult nominated to the OA can choose not to complete his Ordeal just like a youth can make that choice. We hope that the boy's peers and that the troop who nominates an adult take the expectations into consideration and select the person who doesn't mind being handed a broom and dustpan.

Now, all of that being said......do I as CA want unit adult Arrowmen involved? Absolutely. I'm one person with one vehicle. I can't transport 30 or 40 candidates to an Ordeal by myself. Hopefully their parents will. But since an adult is nominated and not elected and they are nominated on the basis of what resources they bring to the table, there is a hope that they will support and encourage their candidates by attending Ordeals and providing transportation. We spell out in detail the difference between an adult nomination and a youth election, but most troops still nominate adults as an honorary thing instead of for it's intended purpose of support.

Twocub, Your situation is not the norm. It could be your council or lodge that is doing the choke hold or it might be state laws. I don't know. I know from having attended the NYLT Course Director's Conference recently, that things we can do in Oklahoma are forbidden by Texas state law. Off the top of my head, I don't recall what the issue was, just that both sides were amazed at the difference. You won't find any such requirements as you describe in any of the OA national literature or rules. Of course, two deep leadership applies in every case, but having troops responsible for their scouts at OA events, never heard of it in my region. I'm sorry you have to deal with it, but it isn't the norm that most people on here experience. In fact, me and another CA are exploring the idea of renting a school bus to get candidates to camp 2.5 hours away for Ordeal so parents and/or unit adults don't have to make the trip twice in one weekend. Members camp by Chapter.

Twocub, The only "committment" an SM really has is to say yes to letting an election team come do an election and provide a list of elligible candidates. If you use TroopMaster, you can push a button and produce a list without any effort. The election will take about 10 minutes away from the troop meeting once a year and a few more minutes while the ballots are counted. But he can have another adult take part in the ballot count if he wants to assign it to someone else. Beyond that, yes, we would like them to pass on information in the way of announcements or emails to their troop members just like they would a camporee or summer camp. All in all, the bottom line would be an hours worth of work per year for someone who doesn't have any desire to get personally involved. I just don't get the huge time committment that some claim. Do we "want" them to be active? Well sure we do. Don't you want the boys or adults you go recruit to join your troop to be active? We realize not everyone will be an active member of OA just like you understand that not every boy will sign up to be a Cub Scout or crossover to a Troop. But does that stop you from trying? No. Why? Because you think it is worthwhile? So do we.

The OP didn't say exactly where the pack was camping. I've been a Campmaster and I know our Camp Rangers and Camp Directors. I can't speak for the professionals in the council office, but I know what the Campmasters, Rangers and Directors would do. I've seen it happen with fireworks and a registered adult who didn't think the rules applied to him after being warned not to shoot them off in camp. He was escorted off of the property. It's been a few years back that it happened, but the mere mention of his name causes our Ranger for that camp to cuss like a sailor.