SR540Beaver

@mds3d: "Lodges should get much more guidance than they do. I think that a Journey to Excellence award for Lodges would be in order. Deciding what requirements to have would be the challenge, but there is currently no system to gauge the success of a Lodge." Lodge JTE replaces Quality Lodge. http://www.oa-bsa.org/annc/g11/jte/ @Eagle92: "1) Have photos attached to the applications." We already do that because we realize that boys will recognize a face better than a name. @SeattlePioneer: "If OA projects include things like setting up tents at the Scout Camp that makes summer camp possible, that's a good answer, except that unit Scouts and leaders probably don't see or understand the connection." I understand what you are saying about doing things to be more visible and I don't disagree, but many unit Scouters don't see or understand the connection simply because they already have a "we don't do OA" mindset and they won't care if you run something at aa Camporee or not. Witness the number here who have rejected every argument made in favor of OA. They act like a sports fan who has already made up their mind they are NOY going to the opera no matter how much their wife wants them to. The odd thing is, OA is Scouting, so what's not to like?

Eagle, Being a Chapter Adviser, there is nothing I'd like better than have every boy who gets elected do their Ordeal and that every boy who does his Ordeal become active. That is my pipe dream. The reality is that they were elected by the peers to be honored for their example in their troop and that their first responsibility as an Arrowman is to their troop. This is an extreme example, but would we ever tell a Medal of Honor recepient that we honor his service and bravery under fire, but we won't give him his medal until he puts another year into the military? Being elected to the OA is an honor. Once he does his Ordeal, he is a member. He should be given the patch that identifies him as such with no other requirements. I realize that you are not in favor or withholding the patch, just giving my thoughts and reasoning on why it is a bad policy.

Gentlemen, I understand and agree that a person can receive the Vigil Honor without being active in OA. That being said, the boys voting on Vigil tend to vote for those they have seen around providing service. Regardless of how great of a nomination letter someone has written, if the boys haven't a clue who the kid is, they tend not to vote for them. That is the reason that many adult nominees don't get elected. They may serve their unit, the district and the council in 10 different ways, but if the boys have never seen them at an OA event, they tend not to vote for them. While I certainly take camp staff service into account (I urge all my Arrowmen to serve on staff) when nominating a boy, I also keep in mind that it is a paid postion and not service for service's sake. Only serving on camp staff usually doesn't make the cut in our selection committee.

Unfortunately, council professionals seem to meddle in things they have no business in and won't get involved in the things they do. Since your professionals seem to have turned a blind eye to the situation, consider taking it to the pack's chartering organization.

leV. I'm not sure how other Lodge's do it, but here is the process we use for Vigil selection. There is a Vigil nomination form and it is my understanding that anyone can submit a nomination. Considering that we have SM's whose troops "don't do OA", most submitions come from within the Lodge. Nominations go to one individual. A date is set on the calendar where the Chapter Adviser and two of his active Chapter members (usually the Chapter Chief and one other boy) come to a Vigil Selection Committee meeting. Only the 2 youth from each chapter may vote. The Adviser does not sit at the table with them, but sits behind them so they can turn to him for advice if needed. If the Adviser wishes to speak, he must be recognized by the chair of the committee. Each nomination letter is read and discussed (on the merits) and a vote is taken of whether that name goes on the final ballot or not. After that process, a ballot is created and the youth who are attending vote for those names onthe ballot that they feel are worthy. They are thanked for their service and the ballots are counted and the person who nominated the candidate is informed so he can make sure the person is at the callout and the Vigil night. Of t he 2 youth per chapter who come to the eslection process, only those who are either Vigil or are not yet elligible may attend. A person elligible can not sit on the committee as their name may come up. Typically, those selected are people who have given outstanding service to scouting in general and OA in particular. The year I was elligible, I had to have an Associate Adviser sit in for me. To my surprise, a kid from our district was selected for Vigil. I was kind of shocked, because as Chapter Adviser, I have certain standards I use for nominating a youth. Is he active in ceremony teams, election teams, chapter meetings and possibly serving in a chapter leadership position. Plus I have an expectation that he is active at this level for at least 2 years. This kid who was selected for Vigil had never been active in the chapter. I think he attended the Fall Fellowship once or twice with his dad who is an SM and an OA member. I have nothing against the boy, he just had not provided outstanding service in the chapter or lodge. I wish I could have been there during the committee meeting to see the nomination letter and know what wowed the boys enough to elect him. But basically, our process usually works and works well to select those people who are actually deserving. It isn't a popularity contest or a good old boys club. In fact, the Lodge Adviser lets the Vigil members know that because they were selected, they should feel an obligation to continue stepping up even more as an example.

OGE is correct about "ranks" in OA. There is no such thing. A member is a member is a member when done correctly. An Ordeal member is a person accepted by the Lodge on the recommendation of his peers who elected him. A Brotherhood member is an Ordeal member who after at least 10 months has self determined that he embraces the ideals of the Order and seals his Brotherhood. A Vigil member is someone who after two years of being a Brotherhood member is nominated to be honored for their dedication and selfless service. That is the distinction of what each type of membership is, but they mean nothing in terms of someone being more important than another. If that isn't being taught in a Lodge, they are doing it wrong. While there were a few upset in our Lodge about the rule against different borders on the flaps, the biggest complainers are the two adults in the Lodge that are huge into patch trading. If you aren't into patch trading, whickh I'm not, it's really no big deal. I've heard of those Lodges that restrict the flap in an attempt to prevent sash and dash. I've heard of withholding the patch until they come to a chapter meeting or until x hours of service. I think it is a shortsighted approach. An Arrowman's first responsibilty is to his troop. As long as he is providing service to his troop, he is considered a member in good standing. When they complete their Ordeal, they are members.....period. Would we ever condone withholding a boys rank patch until he completes the next 3 MB's for his next rank? I think not.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Then it's time to quit. Life is far too short to spend your free time doing something you don't enjoy.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Seattle, You have it wrong. I'm fully aware and accept that NO is an option as I have troops who each year tell us no. They are well within their rights to do so. Whether I think they should feel an obligation is neither here nor there. I do think they are being very close minded and short sighted. I'm a Chapter Adviser. I personally have an obligation and responsibility to promote and advocate for the OA. If I wasn't, I would hope that the Lodge Adviser would remove me from my position. Can you imagine an SM or troop who refuses to recruit new boys? What eventually happens to them? Do you want an SM who takes an attitude that boys will come if they want to, but we aren't going to go try to get them? I've seen these guys who have the feeder pack mentality that kids are obligated to join their troop and they need do nothing else to bring boys in. Sorry, that isn't me. I'm going to do my job and we are going to ask each troop in our district each year to allow us to come do an election. Each year they will exercise their right to say yes or no. While I think the no answer is foolish, it is their right. My issue is when the answer each year is, "we don't do OA" and they can't seem give you a reason why.

Seattle, my parents sounded like a broken record too when they insisted I eat my vegetables and take regular baths. They never really changed their old tired sales pitch either. I eventually realized they were right. Look, I was a scouter and my son was a scout without OA and later in OA. I've seen it from both sides and after the fact, realize what it has to offer, because we actually decided to give it a try. That's all we are ever asking......hold elections and let a boy decide to do his Ordeal or not. Who knows, your troop could have a National Chief a few years down the road....all because you allowed 20 minutes for an election and he found another aspect of scouting he likes.

Here is a video from the 2003 Indian Summer event. Having attended a good number of Native American events here in Oklahoma including the Annual Red Earth Festival which draws Native Americans from the US, Canada and Mexico, the dance regalia is dead on top notch as well as the dancing. About 35 seconds into the video, not the ethnicity of the drummers. It appears they have no problem with white boys honoring their heritage and culture. http://www.oa-bsa.org/events/is2003/live/videos/is2003_closegather_high.wmv

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, OA ENHANCES a boy's scouting career. It isn't there to take him away from his troop. It isn't there to necessarily provide something to your troop, although it does. The OA is a brotherhood of cheerful service. The OA exists as an arm of the scouting program where the best of a troop's scouts get elected to honor their commitment and dedication to being a living example of living the scout oath and law, a skillful camper and providing service within their troop. It is an honor bestowed upon a scout by his peers. An Arrowman's first responsibility is to his troop. If he chooses to participate more fully in what the OA has to offer him individually, that is his decision. Now, how does any of that translate into a "product" of value to the troops? First and foremost, the OA promotes camping and the councils summer camp. It is often the OA who clears the brush at camp, sets up the tents, sets up the program areas, does general maintenance. etc. to get your summer camp in working order each year. They probably help with your cub resident camp set up as well. They staff day camps, summer camps, camporees and webelos woods. Of course, I know troops who are an island unto themselves and feel no need for any district or council related events. Most other troops simply know that there is a troop 999, but have never seen them anywhere. Like I said before, the OA offers additional leadership opportunities at higher levels for larger groups of people than a troop does. It also provides opportunities to work at the BSA high adventure centers and hone skills that they initially learned back in their troop. Now you may say, "so what, what does that do for my troop and my scouts"? Well, it gives you a better scout with even more experience than your troop was able to provide for him. Some troops are large and have great a great program. I come from such a troop. We run 50 to 60 boys and have a large number of registered and trained adults. Each summer, we orgnaize our own high adventure trip to one of our bases like Philmont or someplace like the Pecos Wilderness. We tend to be one of the few "go to" troops for youth and/or adults for district and council needs. But we largely are the chapter in our district because we understand from experience what the OA brings to a boy who brings it back to his troop. But we are the exception to the rule. Many of the troops in our district have 5 to 15 boys and are lucky to have 2 active adults with at least one of them trained. They don't have the resources that a large troop has. They do depend on going to the council summer camp, they do depend on camporee. They do need an avenue for a boy to go to Philmont for $200 instead of having to send him with the council contingent for $800. It's the OA who has done much work preparing the Summit for the 2013 Jamboree and as a new high adventure base. It is the OA service corp who makes much of the Jamboree function well. The OA has much to offer to the boy who was honored by his troop. He then brings back his experience and expertise to his troop. That is what it is and what it could be if only troops would "do OA" and SM's would give it the slightest hint of support to the boys......if he allowed them to be elected and at least find out for himself.

Good post KC! When I got involved in scouting as an adult back in the spring of 2003, it was for one boy, my son. That very soon grew to include all the boys I came into contact with. My son Eagled in December of 2010 and aged out in February of 2011. All my friends and family just assumed that when he aged out, I'd be done. Not by a long shot. I stay in for two reasons, the boys and because I enjoy it. When I cease to enjoy it, I'll retire. But for now, it gives me purpose and the main thrust of that purpose is the boys. I suppose I might be one of those that some people would dismiss as not being in it for the boys. Beyond being a unit scouter, I've done things at the district and council level like being OA Chapter Adviser, Jambo ASM, IOLS staff, WB staff and coming this year, NYLT course director. There could be people that say I do it for my own glory or for beads or maybe a District Award of Merit, but I don't. I do it for the boys. When I was a kid, I had a great dad. But beyond my dad were men who gave of their time to be Sunday School teachers, church youth group leaders, coaches, scout leaders and employers that I learned a lot of valuable lessons from. There is one man in particular who was my baseball coach in first grade, then my Cubmaster and later a youth leader in my church who I think of each time I put on my beads. He was an SM as well, but he could never talk me into joining Boy Scouts after Cubs. Yet he remained in my life thru church and made a real difference. It wasn't too long after I got involved as an adult in scouting that the realization hit me that I had come full circle. That I was the adult giving my time and there were boys in my charge who I was making a difference to. That has never left me. So when I do a scouting job like staff WB where I am not hands on directly with boys, I understand that the job is a multiplier. Working in my troop, I can influence the life of 50 scouts. Staffing WB, I can influence the lives of 48 participants who take what they learn back to their units where they influence the lives of hundreds of scouts. Having staffed 4 WB's and 2 Jambos, that number is closer to a thousand youth. The folks who think that scouters who do the district and council work aren't in it for the boys, just don't get how everything you do in scouting eventually filters down to the boys. At least that is what I believe.

I nominate AnnLaurelB's post for scouter.com post of the year. While I sympathize with her plight, that was one funny post to read!

johnponz hit the nail on the head. Being a Chapter Adviser, I see the troops with 5 scouts that have no SPL or utilize many of the possible POR's due to their size and I see the troops with 60 scouts that fill every imaginable POR. Alone, that is great and it meets the needs of the troop organization and rank advancement for the boy. But there are boys out there who aspire to do more than there troop can provide. These are the guys who start staffing camp, staffing council events and usually end up being elected to OA. I'vve said in a number of my posts that OA enhances a boy's scouting career. Yes, he's been an APL, PL, ASPL, SPL, TG and JASM, but he wants more. Thru OA, he can take on a leadership role in the Chapter where he deals with every troop in the district. Or he can take on a leadership role in the Lodge where he deals with every troop in the council. That is built on the experiences he has had in leadership at the Troop level, but something a Troop can't provide. Are there Lodges where Lodge leadership is nothing more than a fancy title while the adults actually run things? Well sure there is.....just like a lot of troops out there. In our council, the Lodge Chief is actually "in charge". Each year, our Lodge Chief goes before the state legislature and delivers a report (gives a speech) on scouting in our Council. Other than leadership, there is also the service aspect which is really what we are all about. OA kicks the Law and Oath, leadership and service up a notch beyond the troop experience.

Seattle, who designs the program in your troop that attracts the boys? Is it the adults or the boys? What if you didn't have boys to design the program? Would you as an adult know what would really attract them and make them want to join and participate? The same goes for OA. I don't disagree with you that you need to come up with program that makes it attractive, but its hard to do if no one willing to do it. And it's hard to have people willing to do it when their troops won't support it or promote it. You can't come to something you don't know about.

hicountry, Please don't take this the wrong way, because it isn't intended to offend. It's a real and honest question. When you say "we", is that the overburdened SM "we" or the whole troop including the boys "we"? In a true boy led troop and OA chapter, it should be the Vice Chief of Elections contacting the SPL to set up an election, but the "no" usually comes from the adults. All "we" in my chapter ever ask those adults who say "we" aren't interested is to let us come explain what the OA is, hold an election and let the chips fall where they may. Once elected, it is their choice to follow thru with completing their Ordeal or not. Once they have completed Ordeal, it is their choice to get involved or not. But if never given the opportunity because "we" aren't interested, how do they know what they might have missed out on. I ask this question because of something that happened in the last week or so which I believe I may have already related in one of these threads. The troop that falsly claims we blackballed had a young man volunteering his time at our district cub winter day. One of my associate advisers went up and talked to him and thanked him for volunteering. As they visited, my associate asked him if he was a member of the OA and the boy said "no, but I'd really like to be, but our leaders tell us the OA won't come do an election for us." Just a week or so before that, his SM had responded to our request with a no. In this case, the boy was interested, but his leaders won't allow it. Your story concerning the one youth who did do the OA thing and didn't find value reminds me of my troop and our council camp. Ten years or so ago, they went and thought the camp had a lousy program. In ten years, they had never returned even though the council kept giving them the same sales pitch year after year. Finally after 10 years, they relented and went.......and found out it had become a pretty good camp in their absence. Now, we are a very boy run troop, but part of our troop culture was a belief that our council camp sucked. The point is, sometimes we have to look beyond out personal notions and allow others to find out something for themselves. Sometimes while it isn't something that we particularly care for, there is value in urging others to give it a try and decide for themselves. I'm that way with backpacking. For a variety of reasons, it just isnt my cup of tea and I won't do it, but I'll encourage every boy in the troop to give it a try. I have a feeling that nothing I say is going to change your mind and we'll just have to agree to disagree. But it never hurts for me to give the pitch one more time! (This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

hicountry, Let me give you the other side of the picture. I've been a unit scouter much longer than I've been an OA Chapter Adviser (while still being a unit scouter). I've seen both sides of the fence. I deal every year at election time with the troops who say no thanks without any explanation why. If we do get a response, it's usually simply that they "don't do OA". Or the boys aren't interested. Or that they'll ask the boys if they're interested and let us know. Being a unit scouter, I know that it is usually code for the SM not being interested and thinking it is just one more thing he has to deal with. I always encourage the SM's who are not OA members to be the adult nominated from their troop so they have a working knowledge of the OA and can promote and encourage their boys from inside the troop. I recall one SM from last year with a very small troop of 5 or 6 boys flat out telling me that the only reason he is SM is because no one else would do it, his son loves scouting so he stepped up, he is in over his head and he can't afford to add "something else" to his plate....including training. I have another troop that tells their boys that the OA blackballed them and won't come do elections when the truth is, we contact them each year to hold an election and get turned down. I have another troop where the SM believes the OA is a cult. Then we have the troops that want nothing to do with the district or the council who refuse to get trained and run their own program totally of the top of their head. The sales pitch is the same year after year because frankly, it's the sales pitch. I could lie to you and try to attract you with all sorts of sizzle, but in the end you wouldn't appreciate it very much and then it would just reinforce your already negative feelings about the OA. While you don't care for the yearly sales pitch, I can assure you that I don't care for the yearly cold shoulder of an SM not even willing to listen to the sales pitch and entertain the idea. What do you have to lose? Seriously, what do you have to lose by letting an election team come in once a year for 30 minutes to hold an election for the scouts in the unit to vote to honor their peers? It's no skin off an SM's back. Once elected as a candidate, it is up to the individual to determine if he wants to complete his Ordeal or not. If he does, hopefully there are other members in the troop who would assist him in accomplishing that goal. If not, he can come alone. It's a long list of opportunities that the OA can provide a boy to enhance his scouting career. I've listed those opportunities before and won't extend this post by listing them again. For a boy interested, he can take those opportunities all the way to the regional and national level. Why would an SM want to deny any boy in their troop of any opportunity. It's kind of like discouraging a boy from doing merit badges. MB's exist for a number of reasons beyond advancement. Included in that are letting a boy broaden his horizons on a variety of subjects that could turn into a life long hobby or a career. OA is no different. It allows him to experience scouting on a whole new level and allows him exposure to scouts and scouters beyond his unit. It provides more service and leadership opportunities. It opens the door to working trail crews at Philmont or OA staff at Jamborees. Or he can simply continue to provide service to his troop which is an Arrowman's first responsibility. Honestly, what's not to like?

Engineer61, You could contact the American Indian Education Center in Cleveland. http://www.aiecc.net/index.htm

Our "hokey indians" get so many requests each year that we can't possibly do them all. The Packs and the boys love them. One of our ceremonialists was dying to become an OA member and join the ceremony team ever since he saw them as a Tiger. He's our Vice Chief of Ceremonies now. It's a blast getting to go provide a ceremony and see all the excited Webelos crossing over to their next great adventure.

jblake, Push for boy-led in OA? OA has always been boy-led.....if done correctly. Who said they were learning boy-led at OA and taking it back to their troop as a new idea? They are continuing boy-led at OA. In fact, we held elections at our chapter banquet last Friday. Here is part of an email I sent to the five members of the chapter leadership team this morning asking them to schedule a time to do their annual chapter planning. "Thank you for stepping up to serve in a chapter leadership position. I was serious at the banquet when I said, this is your chapter, this is your time. The success of this coming year depends on what you make of it. Your advisers will be standing ready to assist and advise you at any time, but the goals and operation of the chapter are your responsibility. This is no different from a boy run troop. All of you have served in top leadership positions in your troops and are well on your way to Eagle if you havent already attained it. You have the knowledge and you have the experience. Now all you need is a plan."

Well you see fred, it's hard for a Lodge to provide a decent program when kids won't come. For a Lodge to be run correctly, it is indeed youth led. Adults serve as advisers just like Venturing. In a Crew, if the kids don't make it happen, it won't happen. Same with a Chapter/Lodge. I realize it is a chicken and egg kind of thing. You could say build it and they'll come, but if they are the ones who are supposed to build it, they need to be their first. Just like troops, there are large onnes. small ones, active ones, inactive ones, good leaders, bad leaders. As a Chapter Adviser, I take my job seriously. I know other Advisers in my Lodge who seem to think it is merely an honorary title. I've worked hard over the last two years to make us known to the troops. We have a facebook presence, an up to date website and I've developed a chatper email distribution list. One of my Associate Advisers is communication chair for the district, so we always have something in the district newsletter. I currently have the district committee asking if the Chapter will run next years Camporee. They are asking because they think it will give us more exposure to the troops. I'm not opposed to it, but here is the issue. Someone above mentioned maybe the election teams teaching something at a troops election to basically add value and win favor with the troops. When you have the same 6 to 8 boys doing all of the elections, all of the Webelos Crossover ceremonies, holding chapter leadership positions, ceremony practice, etc. they get spread pretty thin and can easily burn out. Spread that out over 20 to 24 boys and then all sorts of things become possible. Support is a two way street. We are providing services to the troops. We need the troops to encourage thier kids to give us a try.

Sooooo, you're just using the $7.7T bailout as an excuse to bash Wood Badge one more time. Got it.

fred, I understand where you are coming from, but it's a little short sighted. OA "can" offer so many opportunities that often can't be met in unit scouting. For the typical boy in a troop, what leadership position can he hold at the district, council, regional and national level? That path exists in OA. Many troops just aren't big enough or have the experienced adults to pull off a troop high adventure trek at Philmont or one of the other high adventure bases. In that case, they have to rely on a council contingent that can be extremely costly. Thru the OA, members can attend all bases for a low fee of $200 by providing half of their time in service. Just like there is NYLT, OA provides NLS and LLDC. Those are just the things I can pull off the top of my head. Think of it kind of like when your kid goes off to college and gets accepted to the honors program. He has far more opportunity to grow and expand his horizons. That is what the OA can offer to the local units. Give them a scout and they can help him become an even better scout for your unit. Yes, activity in the OA is up to the individual scout. That being said, why wouldn't an SM promote and encourage activity in the OA in order to provide a boy greater opportunity and get a better leader in the bargain?

I dropped out after Webelos. My son was a baseball player and scouts wasn't even on the radar for us until he came home from school and begged to go to an informational meeting that night at school. He joined as a Webelos 1 and Eagled last December and aged out this past February. So I wasn't a scout as a youth, but I've been a very involved adult. I was a Cub Committee Chair and WDL, ASM, staffed 4 WB courses, staffed IOLS, ASM for 2 Jamborees, Campmaster, OA Chapter Adviser and will be Course Director for one of our NYLT courses in 2012. My question is why all of the guys who were scouts as kids aren't coming back to give back now? I don't really consider it a problem that former scouts aren't stepping up in great numbers. Any volunteer can easily learn the program and obtian the needed skills. Like others have wrote, some of the worst folks for getting training are former scouts. A good friend of mine was our district training chair and he is now the council training chair for Boy Scouting and he is an Eagle Scout. He has always maintained that the hardest folks to get into training are the Eagle Scouts like him. They believe that because they were scouts as boys 30 years ago, they know everything an adult leader needs to know today. Ain't the case.

Here is another frustration. Our chapter has a history with one of the troops in our district. For some reason, they believe they were blackballed by the former adviser and were being passed over for elections. I know this to not be true because during that time, my own son was the one who contacted the SM's (yes, this troop has co-SM's....whatever that is) about holding an election and could never get a committment out of them. Then I became adviser and I had their CC call me last year with lots of questions about OA (he claims to be a former Lodge Adviser) and tells me about how they have been blackballed. I explain to him that they have never been blackballed and their troop has been asked each year to hold an election. Last year, they finally held one. Victory. Their co-SM's resigend and our District Camping Chair becomes SM. We used our one District nomination to nominate him since his troop didn't and because it would be advantageous for the District Camping Chair to be a member of the OA and understand our connection to camping and camp service. He didn't complete his Ordeal. Fast forward to this past Saturday and my Associate Adviser for elections is attending our district Cub Winter Day with his younger son. He is talking to all the Boy Scouts who volunteered to help and talks to a boy from this troop. They talk about his rank and his favorite palces to camp and other things like that. Then my AA asks if the boy is a member of the OA. No sir, but I'd like to be.......but our leaders say that they can't get the OA to come do elections. WHAT? Now this troop is more of one of our exceptions than our rule, but this is the kind of stuff we are up against. We got a single sentence email reply from this troop's SM that simply said they would not be holding an election this year. He WILL be getting a friendly phone call to see if we can figure out what the heck is going on.