shortridge

"Of course mom won't let him attend the OA weekend because she's busy that weekend and can't go with him to supervise - and the OA chapter won't move the date for her convenience." Oooookay then. Poor kid.

If someone tells me something that turns out to be factually incorrect, particularly on a legal or financial issue, I'm going to distrust other things that person tells me, at least for a while. That was my point. I'm not saying that a Scout should be a tax law expert. I'm just saying that a Scout should make sure what he represents to the public is accurate. Part of the whole trustworthiness thing we do...

I don't know of a tactful way to communicate this to her... but if the mother thinks that other Scouts are "mean," her perceptions will be radically readjusted come this fall when her son becomes a high school freshman - the only 13-year-old in a crowd of 15-year-olds. Most teenage boys (and girls) I know aren't generally guided by the Scout Oath and Law.

emb021 wrote: "Yes. Trainers EDGE is the new 'train the trainer' course for both youth and adult trainers. In fact, Trainers EDGE is a required course for the new National Youth Leadership Society for Venturers." Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I was wondering if it's part of the basic Scoutmaster/adult leader training curriculum, or just something taught in specialized courses - Trainers EDGE, Wood Badge, etc. - which not everyone takes. If it's not integrated into the basic training program, I fail to see how it can be included as part of the basic Scouting rank requirements. Imagine a Scout turning to a Scoutmaster and inquiring: "What's this EDGE thing?" and the SM not having a clue. John-in-KC -- My personal favorite presentation on that subject comes from one Col. Henry Blake. Come to think of it, there are a lot of similarities between MASH and several Scout troops I have known... ;-)

evmori - If I were a potential donor and it turned out that the Scout provided information on the deductibility of the donations that wasn't accurate, I'd probably question all the other information that the Scout provided. That's why I would care.

These may be dumb questions, but still: - Is TLT mandatory for youth leaders? - Is EDGE a part of adult leader training aside from Wood Badge? I'm wondering also how an old-style Scoutmaster who isn't familiar with EDGE is going to sign off on that requirement.

Be prepared for National not being able to help you much. They'll be able to hook you up with local councils, but they don't know the details of each council's camp program.

Ditto what Lisabob said. Is your son's troop not going to camp this summer? If you're looking for him to attend as part of a provisional unit (made up of Scouts from all over), it may be a bit late this year to find an open slot. That said, for future reference, there is a solid first-year camper program at Henson Scout Reservation, Sharptown, Md., on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. Visit www.delmarvacouncil.org for details. It's an all-day program where Scouts work with paid staffers and adult leaders to cover basic Scout skills. They also do swimming and nature activities. The evenings are their own to attend programs.

Yeah, this sounds at first blush like a load of garbage. Perhaps there's something else to it, but it sounds silly. emb021 wrote: "The purpose of the National Youth Leadership Society (NYLS) is to legitimize the leadership training our youth receiving in scouting such that they can add it to college applications, job applications, and the like. (which was always the purpose of the NVLS as it was explained to me over a year ago)" Uhm. There is absolutely NOTHING that prevents Scouts or Venturers from adding their leadership training to college or job applications now. Yes, you may have to include a line of explanation for each course or position, but so much the better. In fact, I'd wager that would catch more peoples' attention than being a member of yet another high-falutin' "Society." There are so many honor societies, leadership associations, etc., at high schools today (visit a vocational-technical school and get a glimpse), I wonder how the schools and colleges keep track of what's what. Scouting stands on its own, or should. There's no need to create a fake shell organization. This sounds like a self-serving piece of make-work spearheaded by some professional at National or some high-level volunteer whose kid had a bad experience with a college admissions officer who wasn't familiar with Scouting. I hope I'm wrong, but as John-in-KC asked, really, who cares?

I agree with the points about reflecting on the meaning of Memorial Day, etc. ... BUT ... I can guarantee any adult who stands up and starts spouting off at the next meeting about service to others, honoring our veterans, etc., is going to be ignored all around. It's out of sight, out of mind, until next year. The other issue that DeanRx raises - an matter of leadership - could be great to focus on the youth leaders, with "lessons learned" about how to plan and organize an event. Unfortunately, it sounds like the SM's attitude rubbed off directly on his AWOL SPL son. That's going to be a really tough lesson. The SM is ultimately the chief program officer and sets the example and the rules. An event is optional? OK, it's not a big deal if we don't go. You've got very few legs to stand on this time around.

packsaddle, To the contrary, I'm not spinning anything or blaming anyone. Please re-read what I posted, and don't read into it any more than what I wrote. Amy's post said, in part, that any responsibility is on the committee, which is composed entirely of volunteers. Then she said not to blame the volunteers. I don't understand that line of thinking. Volunteers are volunteers, whether they sit on a committee or are direct-service folks. I agree that it's not Amy's responsibility. If she absolutely positively can't handle a ninth boy, that's her prerogative. But I strongly disagree with her reasoning, and encourage her to open her mind and arms. We've heard four different reasons for not wanting the group to grow: - "I have planned on handing off more bits of the responsibility to my boys in Webelos and feel that it is harder to manage more than 8." - "Adding boys would impact my wallet. Because Scouting is not free. There are always expenses involved. As a leader, I often find myself absorbing some of these." - "All I was saying was this, I have a strong program because I keep it small, fun, and managable. If you overload leadership, there is a higher chance of burnout and then there is a bigger problem." - "This group of boys that we have. They are all friends outside of scouting. They are all on the same sports teams and have similar interests. We see these people in other situations. I am also worried that new boys might feel left out because of the team spirit the boys already have." Each of those reasons - delegation of duties, financial concerns, potential burnout or external friendships - can be dealt with in a constructive manner just as easily with a group of 10 as with a group of 8. So I don't see the reason for all the angst that some have expressed. From my own experience: As a Cub resident camp staffer, I had super-dens of 15-20 Cubs that I had to lead in programs, escort around camp, eat meals with and get ready for events - for up to six days at a stretch, for 10 hours or more each day. I only burned out when I neglected to ask the parents for support. For all we know, the CM has reached out to the parents of the remaining boys, and they all have excellent reasons they can't step up to the plate. Perhaps the dads are night-shift nurses and the moms are long-haul truckers, and their schedules just don't work. We don't know.

It sounds like some of this may be a mountain out of a molehill in the end. Denleaderamy wrote: "If I say yes and allow them this time. Round-up will come around, we'll pick up 2-4 boys and before long we are a den of 12, which is close to what we left before." Then if the pack expects you to pick up boys at round-up, regardless of the other den's leader issues, you'll still have a problem come the fall, won't you? Has the pack considered this... keeping the 2-4 boys "floating" over the summer, den-less or under the temporary direct leadership of the CM, and then taking the 2-4 new Webelos, adding them to the floaters, and creating a whole new den of 4-8 members? That would seem to solve everyone's problems. One additional observation, and I'll leave this alone and wish you the best - "If these boys leave Scouting, it is not because of me. It would be the responsibility of the parents who don't step up and/or the Committee who doesn't recruit new leadership. Don't place blame on the volunteers." The parents and the committee are volunteers as well - so you're effectively placing blame on other volunteers. It takes a team effort to run a pack well. And a good pack is only the sum of good dens. One other idea. It sounds like you've got your program ducks in a row. One solution that would help both you and the other dens would be to hand over some responsibility for a couple of meetings to your ADL or some parents, and take the time to run a workshop on program or planning for other DLs of perhaps less successful dens, or for parents who want to step up. That would help everyone.

Two for me: Small-Boat Sailing. The camp waterfront area was on a small creek with very little wind, so tacking was a mite difficult. My buddy and I stuck the mast in the muck on the creekbed twice while flipping the boat. I was awarded the badge, but probably didn't earn it. The next year I went out with a friend during open boating, full of supreme confidence in my sailing skills (though I hadn't practiced them in a year). We ended up having to get retrieved after drifting away around the bend. Wood Carving. I must have started this badge three different times with three different counselors. Never finished it. I can whittle a stick down to fine dust... but figuring out how to create a 3D shape from a block of wood is beyond my intellectual capacity.

The login form says it's only open to BSA employees, but some of the questions appear to be from volunteers (e.g., one fellow who says he's a Venturing crew CC). Looks like staff may be pushing questions to the site for general consumption and feedback, but I don't know for sure. I really hope it's the latter - that the ideas floated aren't coming from pros - because some of them are the most dunderheaded things I've seen in a very long time, while others reveal a lack of Scouting knowledge that's embarassing.

I second the previous feedback. There's no magic number, in a den or Boy Scout patrol, that makes a small group unmanageable. The group dynamics, and the leader's attitude, are the critical components. If you're really stuck on the number eight, and you're going to fight this all the way, then the two new Webelos are going to realize that, and not feel wanted. If you're feeling overwhelmed, in terms of time or financially, ask for help. There's no shame in seeking assistance, especially if your den is growing. If you're carrying too much of the cost on your shoulders - my parents were DLs all the way through, and I know a little of what they had to do themselves - then do a den dues system, or ask other parents for help.

It'll be cool only if they do demos with backpackable ingredients.

Eagle92, Where I come from, Lifesaving MB is, at most, six hours during a week of summer camp. BSA Lifeguard is all day long. Do you really think they're comparable?

It should be noted that skipping stones, on the other hand, is widely considered a sport... to wit, the North American Stone Skipping Association: http://www.yeeha.net/nassa/a1.html

1. Touche. 2. No, we don't. But why not start the new requirement with the launch of the new handbook? The spring of 2010 is a completely arbitrary date, so why not pick an arbitrary date that makes sense and matches the HB?

Dwight, I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think what fgoodwin was getting at is that the council rep should have provided more details than just a flat statement. Without any other information to consider, what you describe is a major change to the program and advancement. Personally, I find the information somewhat suspect, particularly considering that the new Handbook is coming out this summer. Why issue a handbook and then have it outdated the next year when a new requirement is added? Judging by the feedback posted here, I think you've gotten the answer to the question you posed.

That's got to be bogus. Around these parts, there's no way that would be even seriously considered without a major infusion of funds. The regional Red Cross doesn't even offer a WFA course, but instead refers inquiries to the only two WFA instructors in the area - both Scout leaders. Two volunteers can't handle hundreds of kids. On the other hand, at least one of the two instructors doesn't charge anything beyond materials - so it's like $35 for a weekend-long course. A great deal.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

A few more stories from Backpacker magazine: http://www.backpacker.com/october_2000_gear_reader_duct_tape_stories/gear/1608 I've used it to keep a broken driver's side mirror on my car. The entire contraption was dangling off, but duct tape kept it on there for several weeks without replacement.

I think BrentAllen hit on something with the OA reference. In my experience, the lodge's role generally stops with a promotional video for summer camp and a where-to-go camping guide, which can go for several years without updating if there's youth turnover. There's certainly nothing prohibiting a lodge or chapter from running a training weekend, a LNT awareness workshop or even a skills shindig during an inductions weekend. The big question would be whether Scouters will voluntarily take instruction from Scouts, even experienced ones. Other partner organizations, to answer the original question, could include college or university outdoor clubs. They often don't do a good job of advertising themselves in the community. And many local Sierra Club chapters have planned outings.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

BrentAllen, Word of mouth is great, and I'm glad that you're having success with your pack. But imagine how much better things would be if National's campaign was coordinated with the message of exitement and fun that your Cubs are sending out. Right now, there's a complete and total disconnect. packsaddle, Cubs aren't the future of Scouting - they're the present, overwhelmingly so. There are now 1.6 million Cubs in the country, but only 900,000 Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts. The chief challenge is indeed in keeping them around. P.S. Talking about marketing and image... does anyone know why this Boy Scout isn't giving the Scout salute? http://ww2.scouting.org/100years/100years/MediaCenter.aspx

There is such a BSA-sponsored program already - outdoor skills director certification at National Camping School. It's a week-long program that teaches the basics-plus. Granted, it doesn't involve long-term backpacking, but it'll get you to the point where you can jump off yourself. But that program, unfortunately, is generally restricted to camp staff members. And the vast majority of volunteer Scouters can't take a summer off to work on staff just to get the training card. Why not open up NCS to everyone who's willing to pay the fare and can get off work for a week? Units would have a much more solid base of trained leaders, in everything from shooting sports to aquatics, and councils would have a great pool of people to draw from for year-round programming (want to offer a weekend climbing clinic? call your local COPE director!) or to fill in as needed during the summer season. Aside from NCS, you're left with some very pricey private companies, and a scattershot approach because they're limited by geography. REI doesn't have stores everywhere, and NOLS isn't in my neck of the woods, either. By contrast, there are at least a couple of NCS sites in each region.(This message has been edited by shortridge)