SeattlePioneer

I took Wood Badge in 1985 when I had been Assistant Scoutmaster in 1981 and Scoutmaster after a year. I came from a climbing background and my outdoor skills were generally excellent, although I added some Scout skills such as lashings in particular. The Woodbadge course that I took used outdoor skills, but formally teaching them was not the major activity or purpose as I recall. But setting up and living in a patrol for a week probably meant that people learned skills if they didn't have them already. For me the most valuable part of the experience was living together as a patrol, and managing the varying personalities of each person, a challenge for most if not all Boy Scout patrols. A quarter century later I still vividly remember one of our first meals. Two staff members were invited to each meal, and we were twenty minutes or so late serving our meal. A very few minutes after we served the meal, the staffers got up and excused themselves, apologetically saying that they had a staff meeting they were scheduled to attend. We had starved our guests! Even after 25 years that keeps me early to a lot of scheduled activities! And they never even mentioned that in any way, merely excusing themselves in the politest way possible! That was a great lesson in how to build character. Wood Badge was a good experience for me, and I learned more than enough to make it well worth while. Twenty five years later I am still "working my ticket" as best I can. Indeed, one of my theories is that a major purpose of Wood Badge is to induce the participants to make a lifelong commitment to Scouting. I don't know how that works on a statistical basis, but it worked that way for me! I suggest that formally reviewing "Trail To First Class" skills is less important than other Wood Badge goals and purposes. In 1919 when Baden Powell conducted the first Gilwell Wood Badge type course, a major purpose WAS to teach Scout skills to Scoutmasters who didn't know them. As I understand it, that is not a major goal and purpose of Wood Badge, and Scoutmaster and Assistant Scotmaster are far from the only intended audience. It might well be a mistake to disatract people from more sophisticated purposes and goals. Besides Kudu --- even Baden Powell's course was in 1919, well after the Boy Scout Congressional Charter was passed. I'm surprised you aren't opposed to Wood Badge of ANY stripe or variety!

At our Cub Scout Roundtable last night, I was introduced to the father of the Cub Scout who sold the most popcorn in the Chief Seattle Council --- a total of about $4800! As it happens, he is the Cubmaster for a pack for which I'm Commissioner. His son is a Bear. We gave him a chance to talk about his son's sales methods, which were mostly door to door in nearby neighborhoods, accompanied by a parent. In addition to being Cubmaster, the family home schools their children and still they found the probably substantial time to take their son out selling popcorn. The father did note that among the prizes was an all expense trip for the family to Disneyland, and he said that HE liked to go to Disneyland too, which perhaps made the time commitment worth while! I may do an interview with the father and son and aim to have it published by the council or at least the district to show the methods used and the results obtained. Meantime, I got an e-mail from my Pack Treasurer today saying she had received an $1100 check for our Pack popcorn sale. That pays the membership fees of 75% of our Cub Scouts and has extra revenue that we will begin spending by making signups for our February 5th Cub Scout Marble Tournament free for Scouts. We ALMOST did not have a popcorn sale. I lacked volunteers to manage the popcorn sale until a "single" parent whose husband is in the Navy somewhere in Afghanistan agreed to chair the sale. We found her another parent to assist and she did a fine job as a first time Popcorn Kernel. If she hadn't volunteered when she did I was ready to drop the sale. So good news from the front lines of the popcorn sale!

The other approach that hasn't been mentioned---- Where are the Pack Committee Chair, Chartered Organization Rep and Institutional Head on the activities of the Cubmaster? Is the Chartered Organization also the CO for the new Troop? What kind of organization is the Chartered Organization? If the Webelos parents have complaints, it would be reasonable to direct them to those leaders to help resolve their concerns. All this suggests that wise Scout Troop Leaders maintain close and cordial ties with feeder Packs and do whatever sucking up might be needed to avoid this kind of problem! An Assistant Scoutmaster that came from the pack recently and is detailed to help maintain that close and cordial relationship might well be wise.....

I've been District Membership Chair since 2004. I have a good working relationship with the DE, however, I only infrequently get statistical reports describing membership in the district. I've asked for reports and invited the DE to give me pretty much anything at all that he punches up or acquires, but I don't get much. This is like putting blinder on a horse. The person driving the horse doesn't have to worry about the horse being distracted by issues the driver isn't interested in. Our council Memebership Vice President seems to be provided pretty ready access to statistical information by the professional staff with which she works, and she passes that on to district membership chairs from time to time. Perhaps we need a coaching session from her on what kind of data we should be asking for and expecting to get.

That the troop would consider ruining the B&G dinner and ceremony suggests some Napoleonic Complex among the Troop leaders as well, perhaps. And apparently this Napoleonic Complex by the Cubmaster wasn't detected until the Troop's oxe was about to be gored. At least no effort is reported to help these put upon parents deal with this abusive Cubmaster until that moment arrived. You've gotten good advice on what your options are. You are entitled to pursue those options just as the Cubmaster is entitled to pursue his.

I had our Cub Scout Roundtable last night as well. The topic was "What to do with Webelos." A talented Cubmaster (now Scoutmaster) gave an excellent description of what a great Webelos program should look like, with lots of suggestion of outings to do and methods of getting all the requirements completed. He also emphasized making connections with multiple Scoutmasters to piggyback on troop activities, resources and man and boy power. I promoted this with two e-mails to pack committe leaders and Cubmasters, asking that they be forwarded on to Bear and Webelos Den leaders. We did get a Bear Den Leader, a Webelos Den Leader and a Scoutmaster attending, plus our usual roster of Roundtable regulars, totaling ten in all. Excellent program. Disappointing attendance. Coming up: February ---- Recruiting and Retaining Hispanic Youth March ---- Model Recruiting Night (bring your Cub Scout) April ---- Pack Camping and Pack Family Camps(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Personally, I can't say that I "grock" all this elaborate theorizing. However, as District Membership Chair, I find quite a few parents who make a decision not to start Cub Scouts until the Wolf year because they don't think their boy is ready for the Cub Scout program. We do recruiting of boy in kindergarten in the spring. That often produces enough boys to provide the nucleus of a den which gets filled out with fall recruiting. Just guessing, but perhaps parents delay joining Tiger Cubs until fall when their boy is several months older. I do see Cub Packs (including my own) getting in comfortable ruts that repeat the same or similar activities each year. Our district does a fine Bowling Tournament, Marble Tournament and district Pinewood Derby, but they repeat the same thing each year. That probably gets old for boys after they have done it 2-3 times. That argues for a NEW and DYNAMIC Webelos program for those older boys to participate in. If that's what Webelos dens did, I doubt there would be a problem. For those who make the Webelos years more Cub Scouts, they are likely going to have a problem.

At the very least, the unhappy Scout Troop "did something" by failing to enlist the interest and sympathy of the Cubmaster. Suppose the Cubmaster simply didn't like the program of the troop. Of course, he's entitled to start his own Boy Scout program if there are families interested. Suppose the Cubmaster felt put upon by a troop that perhaps did little to support his program, but felt entitled to take the Webelos boys his program had produced. There is certainly lots of that going on. Personally I don't have any sympathy for the aggrieved Scout Troop leaders based on the very limited information provided. I would continue to be very interested in the comments the Cubmaster might make. I'll bet he has his grievances, and probably ones for which I'd feel more sympathy! But of course that is speculation.

This pack is chartered by a Catholic parish. Unfortunately, they take only a limited interest in the pack and providing an effective COR hasn't been a part of that interest. One of the things I'm trying to do is to make the pack more of a part of the parish community. To that end I've asked our Tiger Cub Den Leader, one of the two parish members in the pack, to look into finding a service project for the parish that the pack can lead and hopefully attract other chrch families to help with.

I'm the district Membership Chair. 2+ years ago I embarked on an effort to revive a failing Cub Pack that's in a critical area and had dwindled to one Cub Scout. I was Tiger Cub Den Leader to start the pack revival effort then Cubmaster beginning a year ago. Early in the fall I had a parent offer to be Pack Treasurer. Since our former Cubmaster (and current unit Commissioner) had been Treasurer, that was welcome. PACK COMMITTEE MEMBER #1! Our pack Committee Chair had left the pack, and beginning in September I began looking for a new CC who would do a good job ---and be the Chartered Organization Rep as well. None of the likely candidates would agree to take the job. I was mainly interested in someone who would make a point of asking families to volunteer to lead one activity per year, rather than mostly leaning on those attending monthly parent meetings repeatedly. I also suggested that that function of recruiting parent leaders could be split off by someone as a ScoutParent Coordinator, a registered Conmmittee position. Late in December the parent who was doing our recharter agreed to be the Scoutparent Coordinator PACK COMMITTEE POSITION #2! With that position filled, another parent agreed to be Committee Chair. COMMITTE POSITION #3! That allowed us to recharter. I've been making a point of deferring to our Treasurer on spending decisions, so she will feel empowered to do the financial planning we need rather than merely being a check writer. That resulted in a delay in getting approval for funding a pack activity, but now she is planning on putting together a budget for the year. Our new Committee Chair got off to a slow start since she was out of town for our end of the year parent meeting, but now she is getting started on the things that need to be done. So I'm pleased to see our Pack Committee start working! We have three excellent people that are starting to learn their jobs and to figure out how we can work together! In particular, I'm hoping that the Scout Parent Coordinator position works as planned by BSA. That person has two main responsibilities as I understand them: 1) to contact newly recruited families and welcome them into the unit and answer their questions. 2) to aim to sign up each family to lead at least one pack activity during the year. Too often, I see pack leaders look for people when they are needed at the last minute, which usually means asking people who have already volunteered to volunteer again, and means those who hang back aren't asked. By having a leader whose MAIN JOB it is to insure that all families are asked to help, my hope is that more people will volunteer and we will have more families that make a deeper commitment to Scouting by actually helping, rather than hiding. I'm expecting we will be putting together a list of activities that need leaders through August, and that our ScoutParent Coordinator will be able to start planning to fill those needed positions. That should be especially important when we do our spring recruiting and have a bunch of new families enter the pack at once. How does it sound for the Cubmaster and Committee Chair to be able to identify the need for volunteers and have someone else take the responsibility of finding the parents needed to do those tasks? Anyhow, I feel pretty good right now about how things are going in the new year!(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

This sounds EXACTLY like what happens when a Scout unit acts in an abusive way towards members and then discovers that if those people are motivated, they can start their own program. So what did you do to alienate this family? I would SO MUCH like to hear what the Scoutmaster/Cubmaster has to say!

Thank you moosetracker ---- I'd missed that post. And Lisabob, I don't know WHY I have quite a high percentage of parents who take weeks or months to complete requirement #8. The Tiger Cub Handbook has six pages of rather small, solid type describing the child abuse rules and program. The Wolf Cub Handbook has fourteen pages for parents to read then four pages of things to discuss with children. It's a wonder people come back. I'm not surprised parents are put off with that. There must be good solutions to this, but I still don't know what they are.

In my opinion, your first obligation is to insure the safety of other people on the outing. Secondly, a rule of thumb is that one problem child can cause six good Scouts to drop out of the program. That suggests that a parent needs to camp with the child to provide the necessary supervision. If the parent can't make it, the child can't do the outing.

DC Minutes: The DC introduced the DC who announced plans for DC training.

I remember the tent that most impressed me and the boys in the Troop. I think I saw this at Camporee. I think it was a cavas wall tent. The Scoutmaster has outfitted it with a carpet for flooring and a handmade rug at thentrace with the First Class Scout badge decorated in it as a pattern. There was a cot to sleep on with sheets, blanket and pillows. a small desk with paperwork occupied the other half of the tent. A small battery powered table lamp was on the table. At the far end was a small chest of drawers for clothing and uniforms were hangining above it. I was impressed, and the Scouts were too. One senior Scout who liked to complain about camping said, "Wow, it's just like a hotel room!" Suddenly those wall tents seemed like they has a real place and purpose!

dkurtenbach Webelos is already a separate program. So is Tiger Cubs. I've suggested in another thread that large packs might consider having two pack meertings, one for Bears and Webelos, the other for Tigers Cubs and Wolves. I didn't get any support for that, but I still think it's an interesting idea. My bias would be to tie the Webelos program as tightly to one or more Boy Scout Troops as practical. Webelos dens would meet with Scout troops fairly often, participating in some of the troop program that might be suitable and then working on Webelos requirements.

I've already disclosed that I take a modest interest in the knot program and let the knots shape my behavior in some ways so that I might qualify for them. I became a Scouter thirty years ago and currently have three knots--- so I don't think I can be called knot crazy! As I read over the requirements for this one, I see a a good many I could satisfy in the course of my regular Scouting activities ---- as Disrict Membership Chair I'm constantly inviting adults to join Scouting, and a goodly number are alumni. When I'm out doing Friends of Scouting solicitations shortly, I will have similar opportunities. There are some I'd have to make a point of doing like joining the council alumni committee, which probably hasn't been formed yet. But I might do it! It would shape my behavior in small ways and carry out purposes the BSA has decided are useful and impiortant. And I'd get my 4th knot! I don't mind little rewards like that!

I'm with Scout Nut! If I were the Scoutmaster, I think I'd have a special ceremony recognizing the boy's birthday, achievements to date at completing the AOL in a short time and formally welcoming him into the Troop.

drmbear, When I took the course the leaders had a couple of outstanding examples of ceremonies which have motivated me ever since to have meaningful ceremonies for boys. Also, I had disparaged the contact method of splitting wood as being "how lawyers chop wood." After actually practicing it, I had to admit it was a safer method to use, and reasonably efficient. The leader of the nature study session was a Boy Scout who already had a relaly impressive understanding of plants species, and an outstanding eample of "boy leadership." The firebuilding session was done by two venerable Scouters who did an outstanding job on their topic and did an excellent job of creating a firebuilding competition. While I had lots of camping, backpacking and climbing experience, I still learned a lot about SCOUT camping at this training. For me it was worthwhile taking.

Interesting question drmbear, and this has been an interesting thread. I've seen official Scouting literature say things with respect to religion like "the best kind of person has a belief in God." That is a statement of BSA values more than it is a statement of proveable fact, perhaps. And perhaps much the same thing can be said about having a 16 year old girl who is unmarried and pregnant as a unit leader. One of the methods of Boy Scouts is "adult association" with adults who merit being emulated. We want the best people to provide that kind of leadership and example. That being the case, I think it's reasonable for units and parents to object to having a 16 year old pregnant girl as a youth leader. For similar reasons, a 19 year old young woman who is pregnant and engaged is a different set of facts that probably merits being treated in a different way. 19, pregnant and married would be better still. From time to time I watch the MTV program "16 and Pregnant" which follows girls through the trials of being young, unmarried and pregnant. That appears to create a mess of such proportions and reliability that it is not something a reasonable person would recommend as a lifestyle, and therefore as an example to show to other young people. I think that's different than being deliberately punitive by requiring a young woman to wear a scarley "A." in order to humiliate her. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Why yes, Dan. Kudu's relentlessly bitter attacks in the "Soccer and Scouting" thread HAS led me to reply in kind to Kudu's favorite topic. Being "helpful, friendly, courteous and kind" is nice strictly on it's own merits. But it's also a way of getting through life without making unnecessary enemies and opponents. Kudu's style has caused me to be a motivated opponent of his views, which didn't have to happen. But perhaps he likes that and it gives him a chance to repeat his views just that many additional times per day. Hard to say.

The last two posts by NeilUp and Gary Miller seem to contradict each other at first glance. But Gary Miller too talks about Scouting bringing him personal pleasure, just by watching boys having fun with the program. Personally I think NeilUp's post is wiser. Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts too is demanding on adults, even with "Boy Leadership" in Boy Scouts. And I see quite a few parents with a lot of demands placed on them, and not obviously with a lot of pleasures in their lives. If I can find ways to make meetings and activities fun for parents I think it's wise to do that when you can. Being self sacrificing is fine and necessary often enough in Scouting. But I'd like to keep the "chits" NeilUP describes positive when I can.

Not to be missed:

I give Kudu credit for identifying the limited areas where the Congressional Charter does have some real power ---- court decisions that give BSA ownership of terms such as Scouting. Of course that doesn't have anything to do with Kudu's claims about scoutcraft and scouting methods. Those ARE basically symbolic and have never been used to compel BSA to either do certain programs or not do certain programs. Where the Congressional charter has real power it is not relevent to the issues Kudu raises. On the issues Kudu raises (scoutcraft and methods) the charter has no power that has ever been enforced by the courts. I don't suppose we will see Kudu marching into Federal Court asking for an injuction directing BSA to cease and desist from offering Soccer and Scouting programs to Hispanic families and Cub Scouts to large numbers of families across the country. The idea that the courts would act favorably on such a lawsuit is absurd. And if the courts WERE willing to consider such action, there is no doubt that the Congress would rush to update the charter to give the BSA freedom to run Soccer and Scouting, Cub Scouts and perhaps require gay Scoutmasters as well. I wonder if Kudu would like to take credit for that as a legacy?