SeattlePioneer

I'm not a big fan of the Pinewood Derby, which often seems overproduced, overly competetive and excessively driven by parental egos. Our pack has used the district PWD as our race the past two years. This year I'd like to hand out PWD cars, give boys and parents 15 minutes to assemble and decorate their cars and give the boys themselves the opportunity to set up their own races with their buddies. I'd give each boy an award certificate they can sign and keep for their scrap book, and each time they win a match in a race they set up they would get a star for their certificate. I proposed this at our last parent meeting, and one parent objected that if boys used the wheels on their cars outside the "real" race they would get worn and the cars would go slower. ---- and this was a Mom! By organizing their own races the boys get a real hands on racing experience. Too many PWD races the boys hand their car to an adult and that's about it. I really don't see that as a very good Scouting experience, although boys certainly get involved in all the rah-rah of racing. I still want to experiment with the method I've described above. At present we have Tiger Cub through Bear dens. For Webelos there's more of an argument for more formal racing I think.

Hello Baden P, In another recent thread, a Chartered Organization was proposing to charge the unit for costs of providing services. You might want to go back and re read that thread. The prevailing opinion did not support the idea that the unit should dutifully pay up whatever the CO desired. Few Chartered Organizations have any written agreement with unit leaders requiring them to carry out particular policies for the CO. The units I have been associated with are expected to act in their own interest to carry out the Scout program in good faith, not primarily to carry water for the CO. Units are EXPLICITLY required to follow the rules and regulations of the BSA in their charter. In short, I see units being subject to varying tests of obligation and loyalty. The idea that they are agents of the CO and that's it seems exagerated to me.

Hello Tom, Interesting questions. As I think about it, I don't imagine hogs that are feeding at a trough stop for such things.... Those in the military can probably be relied upon to render honors to the colors unless their duty calls their attention elsewhere.

Is there going to be a replay of the commercials for those of us who don't watch football games?

Hello Lisabob, I have no disagreement with the facts you present. But is it reasonbale to suppose that when the relationship of many units to their CO is so loose to call the unit leaders agents of the CO? I found the following description of legal agents on Wikipedia: Law of agencyFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search For other senses of the word "agency", see Agency (disambiguation). The law of agency is an area of commercial law dealing with a contractual or quasi-contractual, or non-contractual set of relationships when an agent is authorized to act on behalf of another (called the Principal) to create a legal relationship with a Third Party.[1] Succinctly, it may be referred to as the relationship between a principal and an agent whereby the principal, expressly or impliedly, authorizes the agent to work under his control and on his behalf. The agent is, thus, required to negotiate on behalf of the principal or bring him and third parties into contractual relationship. This branch of law separates and regulates the relationships between: Agents and Principals; Agents and the Third Parties with whom they deal on their Principals' behalf; and Principals and the Third Parties when the Agents purport to deal on their behalf. The common law principle in operation is usually represented in the Latin phrase, qui facit per alium, facit per se, i.e. the one who acts through another, acts in his or her own interests and it is a parallel concept to vicarious liability and strict liability in which one person is held liable in Criminal law or Tort for the acts or omissions of another. Personally in such a hands off relationship, I don't see much of an argument for considering the unit leaders as agents of the CO ---- they are more closely and explicitly bound to the BSA and its rules and regulations. Chartered orgabnizations are certainly free to assert themselves whenever they choose. But I don't see that unit leaders owe the CO the duty of loyalty that has been suggested.

Interesting ideas TDK. I forwarded you post on to a couple of additional Cubmaster in case they might want to adopt some of your methods.

Hello Desertrat, If people had taken training and decided it was a waste of time, I would respect that opinion. Most people have never given training a try. They simply don't make it a priority or wish to spend the time on it. I understand that, but I think it's too bad. I try to make a point of keeping unit leaders informed of training opportunities and giving people encouragement to give it a try. As I mentioned earlier, I've taken some training that I considered to be a waste of time, and I resented the waste. So I appreciate your observation --- I simply have found most training I have taken to be useful.

Hello Beavah, Your claim that there is an agency relationship between Scouters and the Chartered Organization is interesting, but I don't see it myself. To be an agent the person must be specifically appointed and the powers delegated to him must be declared. Nowhere does that happen. There is a written contract between the CO and the council, but none between the CO and Scouters that I recall seeing. The unit charter itself is granted to the Chartered Organization by the BSA subject to the rules and regulations of the BSA. Perhaps you can explain your claims by addressing these objectuions.

Blancmange, Our District Executive gave an example of a neighboring council that tried to esacpe from liability in a child abuse case. The LDS Church that chartered the unit settled prior to a trial. The council claimed that it wasn't liable because the Chartered Organization had signed on, approving the adult as a Scout leader. The COUNCIL, was the claim, had no role in appointing the abuser to his position. That didn't sell. The Council was found liable anyway.

Troop 22, I think I'd inform the rest of the Scout families of that policy ansd start looking for a Campfire or other youth group with which to volunteer.

One wonder why the Scout Troop hasn't contrived to appoint one of its own as Chartered Organization Rep over the years....

Lisabob's post provides a model description of the root causes of these kinds of frustrations between Cub Pack and Troops, and the preferred method of how they should be resolved.

Hello moosetracker, Let's presume there is a unit out there thaqt has a bad culture. The adult leaders don't recognize the problems or haven't been able to deal with them. Perhaps participation in a district Klondike Derby or Camporee would be the ticket for highlighting those problems and motivating changes. A potty mouthed unit should expect repeated and sharp corrections from leaders at competitions. A unit which has no camping skills is going to have a powerful inducement to improve when they see other units doing well (and winning competitions) while they can't get their tents up, a fire started or dinner prepared. Unit youth and adult leaders may have a chance to start understanding how Scouting works at the evening crackerbarrel. District and council events are ways that the common Scouting culture expresses itself. That has been stimulating youth and units to understand and get with the program for many decades. I would suppose it would have a similar effect on all female Venturing units.

Hello Scoutnut, In my district there is an Outdoor Activities Chair who is resoponsible for organizing the Klondike Derby and Camporee. A chairman is appointed to organize the Klondike Derby and the Outdoor Chair organizes the Cqamporee. Both people tend to be pretty desperate for people to help with those activities. Pretty much any Scouter who was interested in helping would have an oar in helping to decide the terms of the competition, and they would probably be glad to hear people's ideas on how that competition was organized in any case. Just a couple of weeks ago I discussed the extent to which Webelos Dens would be able to participate in our Camporee in early June. We decided that the new Webelos I dens would not be invited to compete but that the new Webelos II dens would be. Districts vary in how they handle such things, but I bet many would welcome more Scouters attending district committee meetings and that more Outdoor Activity committee chairman would be glad to discuss such issues.

Personally, I'm with Qwaze. Venturing sounds like a difficult program to make work. Let's offer them every encouragement. If you have enough crews to justify a separate scoring category, fine. If not, it's more important to give them an opportunity to compete.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

One session of the Cubmaster training I took was presented by a talented Cubmaster who demononstrated his recorded sound effects, music, singing, skits and such that he used during pack meetings. I don't have his talent, but I shopped around for methods I could use to introduce sound effects and music. At a thrift shop I bought a tape cassette deck that allows me to record and play tape cassettes --about $6.00. These are constantly available for sale in my thrift shop experience. I also bought a radio with speakers I can use as an audio amplifier for the cassette deck. Another $6 or so. From Radio Shack I bought a plug set that has the size plug that fits into the headset jack for my computer and has RCA plugs that fit the audio input for the cassette player. I also got another set of plugs with RCA jacks on both ends that connect the cassette deck to the audio amplifier. I've found there are ALL KINDS of sound effects and music available on the internet, and I record that from my computer to tape casettes, which I label for the content. I can then cue up what I want to play at pack meetings and have it ready to play on command from the cassette player through the audio amplifier and speakers. As an example, I recorded artillery gunfire, and then a bugler playing "To the Colors." I play this good 'n loud at the beginning of the den meeting, and the gunfire tends to get everyone's attention! To the colors is then played and we transition into the flag ceremony. That provides some excitement at pretty low cost.

Hello desert rat, Sometimes I find offered training a waste of time, and I find that intensely annoying. Mostly I find it worth while. In September 2010 I took over as Cubmaster for the first time, although I've had a lot of experience in other Scouting positions including Scoutmaster. I took the Cubmaster training not once, but twice. The training offered at our major council training event didn't follow the prescribed Cubmaster training syllabus, but had interesting ideas presented by a talented Cubmaster. A couple of weeks later I took the standard Cubmaster training offere by my district, which was actually more valuable. Perhaps you've had consistantly poor training experiences, and that would be unfortunate. I've had generally good experiences and usually find the training valuable. Personally I think it's foolish for people new to the Cub Scout program to avoid training. The average person can come up with some kind of program, but is likely to have a better bprogram if they are exposed to the available training. That's my experience and opinion, anyway. If you've had consistantly poor experience with training, that is indeed unfortunate,

I like to take Tiger Cub and Wolf dens out for marching band practice! The boys are encourage to bring any noisemaker they wish, or to choose from among those I bring. Then we go out marching around making as much noise as we can for a while. After a bit you can try to get some can of rhythm to modulate the cacaphony. Making paper airplanes is always fun. For an additional skill requirementm put a box on a table and challenge th Tiger Cubs to land their planes on the "aircraft carrier."

The church doesn't provide religious direction for our program. I'll work a grace before our Blue and Gold dinner, and we might have a short prayer into a pack meeting, but I'm guided by suggested Scouting prayers rather than the church program. I described the idea of "duty to God" I used earlier: 1) encouraging youth to follow the religious traditions of their family 2) Respecting the religious beliefs and practices of other people. That hasn't been getting me into hot water so far.... Seattle Pioneer

Hello Neal, We have threads talking about raining in detail, but without a suitable context training is just training. The real test is what people are able to do when a problem occurs, and to find out about that you need to talk about real injury situations. For example, I find it interesting that your Scout Executive took the time to discuss the injury your troop had with you and see what might be needed. Was this the District Executive or the Council Executive? I used to find it instructive to read through the accounts compiled by the American Alpine Club of fatal mountaineering accidents each year in "Accfidents in North American Mountaineering." That was sobering. I used to work for a utility company that compiled a description of industrial injuries each month --- that tended to be more enetertaining --- such as a person in an office cubicle who habitually wagged her foot and got it stapled in an electric stapler! But reading it each month tended to expose me to the kinds of risks people took and got me thinking about how to avoid them. We probably ought to do more of that in Scouting.

Fear of the water is very common, and a rational and reasonable feqar if someone doesn't swim. The public pool near me has a wonderful swimming school, and it begins with children who are afraid to get their face wet. They have a sweries of exercises that beginners go through each time to reduce and eliminate their fears as they increase their skills and confidence. One is to to give children the chance to bounce up and down in the water, encouraging them to get deeper in the water and eventually get their head wqet as they develope more confidence. Children proceed at a pace they are comfortable with, with the instructor encouraging them to do a little more. My best Scouting and swimming story invoved a Boy Scout who didn;t want to walk out on a dock. He had cerebral palsey, and I talked with the parents about a waiver, but they said he didn;t need one and his doctors wanted to encourage him to swim. Our troop went swimming at a pool 2-3 times/year. The last time we did a troop swim before I left as Scoutmaster, this boy popped up beside me in the pool with a big grin on his face! He had been taking lessons and was getting there in his swimnnming skills.

Mikeknr, I'm with you. Some people enjoy the knot awards and some do not. Personally, I find they tend to shape some of what I do, and in ways that are useful to the program. I encourage new adult leaders to consider working for the knots by giving them the knot record sheets that list the requirements and allow them to be signed off. I look for opportunities to give new Scouters AOL and Eagle knots they may have earned as youth. Just for openers, it can help make people SELF motivated to get trained. My only regret is that more people don't choose to be influenced by this part of the Scout program.

I don't agree with the idea that such graduations aren't appropriate. One of the methods of Scouting is recognizing achievements, even minor ones. I've been impressed by how boys respond to and value that kind of recognition --- and that often applies to adults as well. And we tend to be very short of such ceremonies outside of Scouting. Even inside Scouting such ceremonies aren't all they might be. I've seen eleme4ntary school graduations that I think were good and worthwhile. They might have been better had more parents helped with their planning, but they were good anyway.

I think I'd be inclined to offer the howlers the opportunity to become the Asistant Adavancement Chair for Tiger Tiger Cub Dens, Wold Dens, Bears or Webelos. You could explain to them that that might involve 100 awards or so. Ask them how much advance notice they figure they would need to organize and purchase those awardsw and arrnage for them to be presented at a Pack meeting.

Sorry, Beavh. I see you resort to the "agency" concept to be exagerated and not especially appropriate. If a Scout troop isn't cutting the mustard with it's program and relationship with the Cub Pack, I'm not surprised the pack leaders are choosing to shop elsewhere. I don't see any particular obligation of the pack to funnel boys into the troop unless they choose to do so. Can you show me some Scout regulation directing them to do so? Of course, the Chartered Organization might require that, and they are entitled to do so. An LDS Pack that was dierecting youth to a non LDS troop would very likely be required to stop that practice. But I agree with others that most Chatered Organization Heads are unlikely to be interested in refereeing disputes between their Cub Pack and Troop leaders. As I've suggested several times in this thread, the answer is for the Scout Troop to shape up it's program and relationship with the Cub Pack and to EARN their loyalty and support.