SeattlePioneer

My theory is that the most important rank in Boy Scouts is 1st Class. The promise to boys is that Scouting will give them the chance to learn hiking and camping and to go hiking and camping. The First Class Scout has learned those skills and had those opportunities. Star and Life are just polishing the same skills if they were learned in the first place. Eagle is more of the same plus additional leadership skills and training. I'm glad to support boys who are motivated to obtain the higher ranks, but my emphasis to train boys is the Trail to First Class. As a Cub Scout leader I do find that parents who have Eagle tend to make a special commitment to make Cub Scouts work for their son. That's true for father's who were in Boy Scouts but didn't make Eagle too, but not as reliably. One of my theories is that the purpose of Boy Scouts is to insure a pipeline of motivated leaders to run Cub Scouts for their children!

I think this thread proves it: People are different! My personal favorite was sbemis's post--- "1 hit in 4 years of Little League (walked a lot as I was too short to pitch to)"! I admire his persevereance and determination!

I find it interesting that we have capable leaders on both sides of this issue of apologies made under compulsion. I would suggest that Beavah argues in favor of that based on pragmatism. You are going to encounter unfair forces and powers who demand that you do things that you think are bad or mistaken, and a pragmatic person will adapt to that fact of life when they need to to get along. That's true enough I suppose. It allows people to get along in an imperfect world. Perhaps it's a fact of life people need to understand and use. But is it SCOUTING? Don't we want to teach boys and ourselves to live by what is right, rather than what is easy? And isn't one of the first lessons a new Patrol Leader learns is that leadership isn't about giving orders that others are compelled to follow? In order to be a leader, you often or usually have to use a variety of methods to gain compliance with your program. Just giving orders doesn't work because your have a limited ability to force others to do what you want. There are inevitably going to be disagreements about what is right. But if those in power decide they are right, I would argue that the consequence for disagreement should not be a forced apology, but whatever other punishment is deemed to be appropriate. Suspend the kid from the program for a month, perhaps. That's a consequence that makes a point. That gives the kid a month to think about what he did, and perhaps he will decide what he did was wrong and choose to apologize. But even if he doesn't he has been punished for what has been deemed bad behavior. When he returns he has paid his debt and EVERYONE can get on with the program. I suggest that this is pragmatism for those who have power. It allows those with power to enforce their view of what the facts are or what is right without demanding something they really don't have the power to get --- an apology. The bottom line for me is that I think we live in a more honest and decent world if we do not use compulsion to obtain an apology people honestly don't feel is owed. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Twocub dad, ***** ------------- THIS IS A JOKE!!!! ----------- *********** (Joke) ******* ------------ END OF JOKE!!!! ----------- *********** I saw no reason to take your hypothetical as anything other than as being serious. Then you complain when I take your post seriously? ********** ------------- THIS IS A JOKE! --------- ********** I demand one of your apologies! ************ ----------- END OF JOKE! ---------- ************

Hello Twocub, Your post illustrates the problem I have with apologies made under compulsion. A kid who put a live animal in a microwave oven is committing a crime around here. Adults who did that would go to jail. Frankly, if I were a kid who saw another boy put the hamster in the microwave, I would probably be legally and morally justified to punch him in the mouth to prevent the appliance from being turned on. I like your method of teaching boys HOW to manke an apology, but that just illustrates why no apology should be made in your hypothetical situation. The person acting in an evil way was the boy putting the animal in the oven and that would be hard to hide by making your kind of formal apology, don't you think? The boy who did the punching might well have my support and respect and that would go double if he refused to knuckle under to a mistaken action by an adult leader and refused to apologize. Doing that would require bravery on the part of the boy. The kid who was doing the microwaving might deserve a referral to a psychiatrist for an evaluation.

A season or so of Little League taught me I had little interest in team sports. I was also a Cub Scout dropout after a handful of meetings.

Another thread is discussing the discipline of a Scout for bad behavior. The troop leaders are requiring that the Scout apologize, and the Scout refuses to do so. Personally, I'm opposed to requiring that people apoligize as a condition of a discpline process. If someone behaves badly, they should receive appropriate punishment for their bad behavior, but not ordered to make an apology. It may be that the person feels the discipline was wrong or mistaken. Perhaps they are in fact "not guilty" and perhaps they are actually innocent. Nothing is gained by compelling an apology if the person is not contrite. And if the person decides their behavior was bad or mistaken, they can volunteer an apology they mean as part of the process of making amends. But let's leave the disciplined person the dignity of not agreeing with the decision rendered if they don't agree with it. That's my theory, anyway.

My idea of leave no trace was abandonning the use of a saw and axe to construct a lean to shelter for the night. You mean there's more to it?

Kind of an amusing thread as people wrestle with how to interpret and apply Guide to Safe Scouting advice on knives! I routinely carry a swiss army knife attached to my keys, which suffices for the duties you might need for a knife during the day. My father was a butcher and I worked in his shop as a youth. I have legacy knives from his business which I use and value. A year ago I acquired a USMC Ka-Bar knife with a substantial 7" clipped blade ----which I characterize as a Bowie Knife. (That came from our District White Eelephant gift exchange, actually) Not THAT is a knife I value having as well! A Bowie Knife has a small part in American frontier history, and the Ka-Bar was the (or at least a) knife that helped win WWII and subsequent wars in a small way. Mostly what I use it for is splitting kindling ----better than an axe for that task in many cases. And gad---- it's a tough knife! I keep pounding it through wood I plit and the blade never seems to dull up. I did some Cub Scout instruction on knife use, sharpening and safety a year ago and I brought and talked about the Ka-Bar knife. Boys were suitably impressed. But mostly they worked on kitchen style chef's knives.

Heh, heh! Around here a Tenderfoot Scout who wants to become Second Class has to show his proficiency by building a fire in the mountains on top of six feet of snow in subfreezing wind driven snow. No stinking matches are allowed either! Make yourself a bow to get the tinder you find lit up! You have a shoelace to use with the bow, right?

If you have some long time adult leaders that are surplus to your needs, you might talk to your district commissioner, district chairman or district executive about inviting them to help with district activities. Some might make good unit commissioners or a good district membership chair, or help with the district's Camporee or other activities. Most districts have a pretty desperate need for experienced Scouters who can help out at the district level, and it tends to be a nice community of experienced Scouters working together as well.

It was poor judgment to include that information. If the Moderators can edit that out, I certainly support that and apologize for leaving it in.

Frustrating, isn't it? Frankly, it sounds to me like you are doing a terrific job! I helped rebeuild a pack that had collapsed in 2004 as a Unit Commissioner, and helped design much of the program they still use. They got back on track and have been very succesful. Two years ago I started working with another pack that was down to one boy. I used much the same program as a template and it remains a struggle with that pack, for much the same reasons you describe! Units are different ---communities are different (although these two packs are only about three miles apart). One difference between those two packs is that one is in a lower income area, while the more succesful pack is on the edge of a high income area. High income families tend to value Scouting more and parents are more likely to have the time and leadership skills that make things work. And higher income families don't have as much family chaos that translate into high rates of turnover, moving to different addresses and so on. I've often day dreamed about recruiting youth sports teams as a whole into Scouting when the season was over, turning the coach into a den leader. I had a Tiger Cub Den Leader a year ago who WAS the coach, but he wasn't able to bring the boys on the team into the pack despite his efforts to do so. This year he and his son dropped out of the pack in favor of 2nd grade football that involved practice five days per week (?). I wish I had an answer for you ---- I don't. I await with interest further comments from those who might have THE answer & Magic Bullets for us!

Some people have strong opinions on Scout uniforms, And there has been a long history of uniforms going back a hundred years, plus uniforms for Cub Scouts, Sea Scouts and other varying branches of Scouting. And then there are "Class B" uniforms, and uniform styles favored by particular units. I'd like to invite people to discuss the uniform styles they like the most, the ones they may use or wear and the ones they think are "coolest" or are things they'd like to see adopted. What uniform styles did you wear as a youth? Illustrations of uniforms are encouraged!

Personally I don't like compelling people to apologize for bad behavior. That's demeaning and pointless. Appropriate punishment for bad behavior is appropriate, but then drop the issue. If someone wishes to apologize for bad behavior they are then free to make an honest apology based on their own motivation to do the right thing.

One of my theories is that bright ideas are cheaper than balogney. Bright ideas that really work are rare gems. For a bright idea to work in Scouting it needs to attract the interest of Scouting professionals, volunteers, parents, youth and the community. And they need to pan out financially. The innovation needs to fit in with the purposes and goals of Scouting. Based on all these criteria, I suggest that the Cub Scout program is the greatest innovation in Scouting since the Boy Scout program itself was developed through a process of innovation. This also illustrates the folly of those who would try to turn Scouting's Congressional charter into a kind of Holy Writ to stifle change and innovation. If we were limited to the program as it existed in 1916 there would be no Cub Scout program and we would still be wearing these uniforms: http://www.njscoutmuseum.org/TourImages/100_0012-sm.JPG But change for the sake of change is no good either. Changes must meet those tests described above and be capable of being delivered on a large scale by the staff and volunteers we have or can attract.

I had a District Executive who maintained that it was important for parents to have a good time when they attended activities. He illustrated that by suggesting that Pack Committee meetings should consider having a wine tasting event at the end of business. I actually did that with a pack committee maeeting. Parents contributed a couple of bottles of wine and those interested got a taste or two. In my current pack I schedule Pack Committee meetings at a Starbucks coffeeshop on the last Monday of the month. Those who want to treat themselves to a drink do so, and those who don't do not. I don't, myself. Even though this is a small pack, I always get 4-5 parents turning out. How about Roundtable and District Committee meetings? We used to cap Cub Scout Roundtable and sometimes District Committee meetings with a visit to the Dairy Queen a couple of blocks away for those interested. Just some additional time to chat with the aid of some ice cream. Our Boy Scout Roundtables usually conclude with a sample Boy Scout Dutch Oven desert. What other things would make it fun for adults to attend meetings or activities of various kinds?

Old Grey Eagle's comment deserves discussion: "How do I say this delicately? Well, I guess I don't know so I will just say it straight up Scouting is for the Youth, But unless the Adults are not having a good time, the future is limited Now, having a good time is open to interpretation. I have had fun being a waiter at a Council event, helping run Camporees, etc because I was with people I respect and enjoy being around. When adult find little pleasure in scoting, there will be issues." So--- should leaders look for ways to make meetings and activities fun for parents? What are examples of how you have seen that done well?

Interesting comments by Eagle 007. I'm no Xpert on Venturing ---- aren't they supposed to decide issues like this rather than the parents? If they are, how should they do it? Should parents expect to accept the decisions the Crew leaders decide? Interesting point that the pregnant girl is a Venturing leader. Is it reasonable that should give parents pause about her being in the Crew? Suppose the Crew decided that they have a duty to support the pregnant Crew member and decide that aiding and supporting her during her pregnancy and after the child is born should be one of their major projects?

Another way to look at this is that the Boy Scout and Eagle Scout rank are there to produce the next generation of Scouters...

We universally talk about Scouting as a youth program, but in my experience a good deal of Scouting is a program for adults. It's a program that teaches parents a variety of ways to have fun with their children It's a program that teaches parents ways to lead and inspire youth without holleriing and shouting. Or beating. It's a program that often teaches parents about service to others by giving them opportunities and training for that kind of participation. It's a program about being a good follower by encouraging participation in planning activities, signing up for activities and being on time for activities. It's a program of teaching leadership through providing training and leadership experience. We teach youth the Scout Law, but we are teaching parents the importance of those values and encouraging parents to adopt them for themselves. Sooo, IS Scouting an adult program too? If so, should that fact be more widely recognized and made a more formal part of the program, or is it fine as a "stealth" program?

Heh, heh! These days you don't need to build a fire to have a fire in the fireplace. Just push the button and whoosh! Wood fireplaces are relatively rare around here in dwellings built in the past twenty years or so, and in many earlier homes gas fireplace inserts or pellet stoves fill the original fireplace. Frankly, conventional fireplaces are stupefyingly inefficient and that's not really much of a loss, except perhaps to Scouting.

Hello Thanks for sharing with me some of your troop history. The Boeing Machinist's union has a fine headquarters in a low income area in Seattle. I'm interested to see if they might be willing to charter a Cub Pack. My hope is that union members might be interested in joining a pack sponsored by their union, providing a base of membership and leadership to get the pack started and a source of membership and leadership for the long term. With that as a base, we might hope to be able to recruit Cub Scout from lower income neighborhood families where it's often hard to get enough support to maintain a pack. It sounds like the union helped provide that kind of leadership to get things started. Were families of union members attracted as members of the troop? Did they help provide that kind of membership and leadership base? Are union members in general and UAW Local 94 members in particular attracted as members of Troop 94 these days? I hope they are all enjoying the great success of your Troop! Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with the George Meany Scout Medal and award? I would suppose you would have some Troops and perhaps local union officers who have earned that kind of award! Any additional information on how the local union came to sponsor the Troop and how the Union-Troop relationship worked in those early years would be welcome as I try to decide the best way to get a new pack started in our area. Thanks very much for your comments! I do hope this works out for you, I can tell you one thing for sure, that when a union membership puts their mind to do something they almost always do it well. I found that during the first 15 years our union representatives where very active and almost too intense. At times they where the driving force in helping us to fund raise and to start our High Adventure program. As for Union membership with youth in the program; At first in the 70s and 80s I would say about half our troop had a parent in the union. Unfortunalty the union membership has gotten much older and all of their children are long out of the program. We do have the next generation thriving, but only one boy in our troop of 65 has a parent in the Local. It looks as if their will be some new younger families joining John Deere and then the union soon. As for the George Meany award, yes we have several leaders in our troop that have this award, but most are with different unions in the area. Good Luck (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

My name is , I am currently an Assistant scoutmaster with troop 94 and have been a part of the Troop since its inception in 1974. It looks as if you have some questions in regards to having a Union Sponsor. Local 94 United Auto Workers have been a great sponsor for us, in the beginning they where very active with the troop, and on the troop committee. We have been very successful and independent as a troop, our independence however has led to the Union feeling comfortable with us and our ability to take care of things on our own. So for the past several years we havent had a liaison to our troop, at least one that sits on the troop committee. I see the importance for any troop to have that representation and input from the sponsoring institution. Our troop has used there facility (Basement) as our meeting place. They also pay for postage for troop mailings; let us use their Kitchen and Large upstairs HALL for Pancake Breakfasts. We stay in contact with the leadership of the union with reserving dates on the calendar for other events, meetings or activities. Our relationship has been wonderful, they ask us to participate in the Labor Day Parade with The local membership and John Deere retires etc. Our troop has been the largest troop in the Northeast Iowa council for years and has been one of the largest for decades. We do not have a Cub Scout pack, but we have a great rapport with several Packs in the area. Financially they do not contribute directly to our troop; they do sponsor Eagle scouts at the councils annual Eagle brunch. I hope I have answered some of the Questions you may have had. Yours in Scouting (Just saw this, please PM me or another moderator if you see personal information like this again, OGE) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I guess there ARE advantages to living on the soggy side of the mountains in Washington State. Fire bans are a relatively rare event.