SeattlePioneer

If we were going to keep everything the same as it was in 1916 when the Scout charter was adopted, we'd need to keep the same uniforms, too---- http://www.njscoutmuseum.org/TourImages/100_0012-sm.JPG

I agree Dan. The charter is a guide, not the straitjacket some would have it be.

I appreciate Beavah's comments. They help keep a sense of proportion abhout knots. Knots are the adult Scouter's advancement program. I'll admit to participating in that program. I began my Scouter service thirty years ago, although I just became knot conscious when I got back into Scouting in 2004. I've accumulated three knots at this point, which I wear with a degree of pride ---- the Scouter Key knot, District Award of Merit and Tiger Cub knot. I'll be eligible for the Cubmaster knot at the end of the year. I've decided that it's nice to be recognized. The knots aid in motivating me in a small way, and I encourage other Scouters to go for the knots in hopes that they will have fun doing it and that it will shape their service and encourage them to serve. I tease the big accumulators of knots a little bit by introducing them as someone who "has more knots that Patton had medals!" All in good fun, of course, and often by way of explaining the knot program. I was pleased to hand out knots to my Tiger Cub Den leader recognizing his Eagle Scout and Arrow of Light awards as a youth. He took the Tiger Cub Den Leader training I offered last June, and I look forward to seeing him awarded the Tiger Cub Den Leader knot. I carry the knot record/applications for many common knots with me when I attend Scout activities, and I'm always on the lookout for Scouters I can give the application, hoping it might encourage them to get trained or otherwise complete requirements. Our district training committee chair makes a point of promoting knot awards. I was at a troops "Haunted Hike" Halloween event a couple of months ago. I encountered a Tiger Cub Den Leader I hadn't met before, wearing a full uniform and with two knots indicating he's completed Eagle and Arrow of Light. That gave me some things to chat about, and I discovered that the parents of four other Tiger Cubs in his den were Eagle Scouts too! I know I'm being considered for the Council Silver Beaver award this year. I will take a degree of pride if I win that award and would wear the knot with pride. In short, some may value the knot program, and others may not. I think it can serve a useful purpose in encouraging adults to serve the Scouting program, to recognize and thank Scouters for their service, to get trained and to set high standards in the service we perform. That's my experience, anyway. I've never seen knot heavy Scouters using them to beat up on other people.

Personally, I'm with Packsaddle. I find too many Pinewood Derbies dominated by parents and over produced. We'll be handing out Pinewood Derby kits to boys with a track set up. The boys will be free to assemble their own cars right then and choose who they want to race against. We patronize our district Pinewood Derby race, and that gives boys additional weeks to perfect their cars and do a formal race. But frnakly, I think they have more fun setting up their own races with cars right out of the box. Last fall we did a Raingutter regatta as a recruiting night event to attract new boys. These weren't the kit boats, but 3/4" blocks of wood with a point cut into them, with a steel rod to suppoort a corrugated plastic sail. I took samples of the boats to schools and invited boys to come, make a model boat and RACE it against their BUDDIES to see who had the FASTEST boat! They came in droves --- we used up 35 boats. I made up Raingutter Regatta certificates for each boy. The boys at the recruiting night assembled their boats with the aid of their parent. While the boys were organizing their own races against each other, we signed up parents for Cub Scouts. The winner of each match the boys organized received a star to put on their certificate. My plan is to do something very similar for our recruiting night in the spring using "stomp bottle rockets." In my view, too much formality in competitions for Cub Scouts gets in the way of having fun.

Rigid adhearance to the Congressional charter as Holy Writ would rule out the Cub Scout program, since it wan't around in 1916. No Webelos or Tiger Cubs either ----sorry! No Leave No Trace --- keep those saws and axes SHARP ---you will be clear cutting yourself a campsite! If you want to argue against innovation --- fine. Argue against it on it's merits. Change for change sake is obviously a worthless goal as is refusing to innovate because something wasn't around in 1916.

Very interesting comments, Eagledad. As District Membership Chair since 2004, I've decided that one critical thing that all Cub Packs need to be able to do every year in order to survive and thrive is get a new Tiger Cub Den up and running with an effective program. The "Shared Leadership" concept is designed (I suspect) to get new parents used to being a part of the den and pack leadership. Usually I don't see that happening the way it's supposed to. (I sent a link off to my Tiger Cub Den Leader on to an excellent thread on how to do that, but good ideas aren't really enough.) For three years I've formed a "Bobcat Den" of all new boys recruited in the spring, and walked those new boys and parents through the Bobcat requirements, an outing and an overnight camp in June where the Bobcat Den is disbanded and the new boys enter their regular dens for the next year. My aim has been to show parents and boys what a quality program looks like and feels like and to motivate them to help with the program, and to identify and recruit new Den leaders and other leaders as needed. That has worked pretty well for me. I also scheduled and promoted a Tiger Cub Den Leader training at our June Roundtable. The idea was to encourage all Tiger Cub Partners to learn about the program in some detail in an hour and a half. The regular district Cub Scout training was offered in March or April, too early for new Tiger Cub parents to participate in, since it was before most recruiting was done. That was a good idea I think, but I only had one Tiger Cub parent (from my pack) attend and one Scoutmaster attend from a pack for which I'm Commissioner. Getting the word out and getting parents motivated was not succesfuly beyond those people I worked with myself. So getting Tiger Cub programs started remains a challenge and a leading way for packs to become weak. However, if Tiger Cubs weren't there I suspect the same problem would be replicated with getting new Wolf dens started.

I came along as AS in 1981 then SM from 1982-1987, so that was a little before my time. I never heard Scouters complaining about that at the time. And frankly, if that is causing the oversensitivity I've seen displayed recently, thirty years after the event, it amounts to neurotic behavior. Frankly I see my drawn to support the programs of the Chief Scout Executive and his innovative programs after being exposed to the zealotry of one of the hard liners around here. You got to be smarter than that if you want to sell your ideas to other people.

I imagine they need a new edition to include the rules for soccer in it....

Venevidi, Simple idea. Excellent, too! Why didn't I think of that? Inviting boys to bring in sports and other kinds of awards for recognition at den or pack meetings is obvious, but I can't say I've seen it done. Old Gray Owl, When I was rebuilding a failing pack we had a June pack campout in 2005. The Commiittee Chair was an ex Eagle Scout who fondly remembered his Pioneering projects. I helped him build a monkey bridge a few feet off of flat ground. The Cub Scouts loved it --- the bouncier and more difficult to cross the better! It's been replicated pretty much every year since then for that pack activity.

Here's my effort to promote improved Webelos programs for Cub Packs: Hello Cub Scout Leaders, Happy New Year! And may your Dens and Packs be growing in the months to come! At our Aquila District Roundtable on Thursday, January 13th, one of the district's most talented Cubmasters (and now a talented Scoutmaster for Troop 282), Mike Grueter, will be talking about "What to Do With Webelos!" "By the time a Cub Scout hits Webelos age, they've probably done most of the annual Pack activities a couple times, and are looking for new adventures. They'll also be eyeing the Boy Scout program, but may have questions or concerns. We'll give you some great ideas to spice up your Webelos program and avoid the "been there done that" syndrome. We'll also provide good suggestions on learning more about Boy Scouts and getting your Scouts excited about crossing over." The Cub Scout Roundtable is from 7:30-8:30 PM on the second Thursday of each month at the LDS Church at 14020 Ambaum Bvd SW in Burien. Please forward this e-mail to your Pack leaders, Bear and Webelos Den Leaders! Upcoming Roundtable Programs: February 10th Luis Garcia "Recruiting and Retaining Hispanic Youth" March 10th Will Skubi Spring Recruiting Workshop

Two years ago I had a Tiger Cub parent (now Cubmaster) who was disappointed that his son's karate achievements weren't recognized in Scouts. I did my best to explain that as best I could. I pointed out that other activities like tackle football weren't recognized either, but that sports in general were recognized and encouraged. I suggested that activities where getting hit in the head, hard, was part of the program tended not to be recognized! I also suggested that perhaps uneven supervision and training of those leading such activities might be explanations. Of course activities like swimming are hazardous and are recognized. They are also surrounded by programs of training and qualification designed to mitigate the risks involved. Of course we are free to engage in any activities we wish if we accept the liability for getting sued. I don't care for that kind of risk myself, and I have a measure of sympathy when the BSA decides it needs to draw lines as well.

83 Eagle, As District Membership Chair, I'm in many schools for fall and spring recruiting. In the fall, I talk to kindergarteners about Cub Scouts and I promise to be back in the spring to invite them to join Cub Scouts then. And in the spring we recruit kindergarteners as Tiger Cubs. There can be some boys who are disappointed with that in the fall, but usually it's not too much of a problem. That's my experience anyway.

I see that once again nay sayers who appear to oppose any innovation since 1916 are proposing to stamp out the very idea of innovation in Scouting. Sad. What I see are a few people trying to turn the Boy Scout Charter into Holy Writ and turning the early innovators that produced Scouting in the first place into gods whose words should not be questioned or adapted to meet the needs of the day. Of course were they to take their own rhetoric seriously we would have to start by closing down the Cub Scout program, which wasn't a method in 1916. This does tend to support the idea that the words and programs of the Chief Scout Executive need to be given a careful hearing and that ideas appropriate to various council and districts be adopted when appropriate. Dan, I think your example of Leave-No_trace is a good one. The original methods of Scouting used in 1916 proved over time to need to be adapted to fit current circumstances, and this kind of program is an example of how that leadership from the Chief Scout Executive has permeated all levels of Scouting. I've seen efforts to manage the Webelos-to-Scout transition at the Troop, Pack and District level. I haven't seen any magic bullets. Good programs usually result from Troops on the lookout for their next batch of boys, and who cultivate Cub Scout packs encouraging them to do suitable kinds of things. Personally, I'd be glad to see some innovation in that area. Some units do their best, but many others don't have a clue. And constructing an effective Webelos program is difficult for many weaker packs to do.

Excellent idea, Sherminator! I see Cub Scout are eligible for the interpreters strip as well: http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/award/award-542.asp Recognizing adults as interpreters at a pack meeting might healp ease them into a pack or troop leadership position keeping communicating with parents. Any other pointers for we novices in this area?

I was at a troop activity and was about to get a parking ticket. The officer chose not to give me a ticket when I turned up and was in uniform. Then he gave the Scoutmaster a parking ticket. He was NOT in uniform!

Very good questions Scoutfish, and I don't pretend to have good answers. As District Membership Chair, I've conducted many recruiting nights for packs around my district, and frankly I've never made the slightest special effort to recruit Hispanic families. I find Hispanic children to be as interested in Cub Scouts as are white students, and usually they seem to have a comparable command of English. Perhaps I'm underestimating their problem, but the children don't seem to have a problem being attracted to Cub Scouts. And a fair number of Hispanic parents turn out for recruiting nights as well. And some put their hard earned money down to join. But how many are putting their money down understanding little or nothing of the program they are joining? I know in my own pack, a fair number of Spanish speaking families have joined, but often they drop out about as fast as they have dropped in. A year ago and this spring I had Spanish speaking families put their money down to join and NEVER saw them again. I called one family twenty times or more, trying to make a connection and get them involved. Every time I called I got a Spanish speaking adult that I couldn't communicate with at all. Two years ago I had a bilingual Spanish speaking woman who joined my pack and informally helped a couple of other Spanish speaking families involved. At the time, I didn't realize what a resource she was. After a year, that family dropped out. I suspect there are things English speaking packs can do to make Spanish speaking immigrant families feel more at home, a part of the program and contributing to the leadership of the pack. I suggested some ways that might be done in my opening post on this thread. Why NOT have Scout handbooks in Spanish at Recruiting nights? Why NOT have a Spanish speaker welcome families in their native language at recruiting nights if someone is available to do that? Why NOT appoint a bilingual person as a Scoutparent coordinator to keep in touch with Spanish speaking families and keep parents informed of the program plans and to answer their questions? My plans are to keep the pack where I am Cubmaster an English speaking pack, but I'd like to come up with ways to make it friendly and attractive for Spanish speaking families too, as best I can. In a nutshell I'd like to find out how to go from doing nothing to doing our best to make Spanish speaking families feel welcome and able to participate in the program. I don't know how to do that yet but I'm looking for ways to do it. One good idea suggested in this thread was to get Hispanic ministries in a Chartered Organization to help decide what to do and to help do it. And I have no interest in a quota based program at all. Neither am I willing to ignore the fact that packs in my district recruit few Spanish speaking families and many of those don't stay long.

Sorry Kudu, I don't consider Scouting's Congressional charter nor Baden Powell's words to be holy writ. And I am a good deal more inclined to support soccer and Scouting now than when I began this thread. And I'll be paying more attention to the words and programs of the Chief Scout Executive than I otherwise would have as well.

Traffic cameras to face tough road in Mukilteo Voters approved a Tim Eyman ballot measure that makes it tough for the city of Mukilteo to install traffic-enforcement cameras. By Sean Collins Walsh Seattle Times staff reporter Related Mukilteo voters approved a Tim Eyman ballot measure that makes it tough for that city to install traffic-enforcement cameras. Early returns showed the measure had 70 percent approval. The measure requires a two-thirds majority of the City Council as well as voter approval before red-light cameras can be installed. Fines from camera-enforced tickets would be limited to $20. Mukilteo, which hasn't installed any traffic cameras, is the first Washington city to put the issue before voters. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013329088_elexredlight03m.html

As District Membership Chair, I saw the failure to plan for Tiger Cub Den Leadership to be a leading way for packs to get into serious trouble. It's critical to identify and train new Tiger Cub Den leaders, just as you describe. In my district I organized a Tiger Cub Den Leader training at our June Roundtable aimed to catch those new parents who had joined in the spring. New Tiger Cub parents were also encouraged to participate in the Tiger Twilight Camp that was part of the July daycamp. The idea was that those new Tiger Cub parents would be promtly trained in how Tiger Cubs should work and the SEE how the program works at Tiger Twilight camp. Good theory, but only one parent from my own pack took the training, and he and his son did the Tiger Twilight camp too, and he's serving as an excellent Tiger Cub Den Leader. I may try that again if the DE and I can figure out how to promote that program effectively.

I saw the earlier thread describing the drama. So what kind of program are you planning for your new troop? What kind of hikes and camping trips? Do you have the equipment you need? How about parents or adults who will contribute to the program?

All RIGHT! So no one likes my idea of splitting a pack and having two meetings! I have yet to find anyone else who liked that idea, but it still seems to be worth considering to me! In the meantime though, I copied Eagledad's excellent post on how he managed his large pack meetings and e-mailed that on to the Cub Master who raised questions about managing increasingly large pack meetings. I'm Commissioner for that pack and ran the Tiger Cub Den a couple of years ago when the pack was struggling. Thanks for all the excellent comments and ideas!

Taking that training DOES come in handy sometimes!

Personally I think Scouting permits a wide array of standards in the kind of learning expected of Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. You can observe those variations in the way Merit Badges and other requirements are signed off at summer camp and the way adults are instructed at Leadership Outdoor Skill Training. In the latter, adults are exposed to many of the skills expected of a First Class Scout in a weekend or two. This will serve to refresh the skills of a former Scout, but not train someone new to the skill with any thoroughness. I think it can give the new person enough of an introduction so that they can continue to learn the skill and be able to teach and demonstrate it when needed. Also, The Head Office would like to see new Scouts make First Class in a year in order to maximize the number of boys who continue in the program. That tends to mean that most boys aren't going to be experts in Scout skills when they get those requirement signed off. If they CONTINUE in Scouting for several years, it's likely that they will use and practice and teach the skills often enough to master them. So if I have a choice of a boy who masters the Scout Skills as a Star or Life Scout or one who gets discouraged and drops out as a Tenderfoot, the choice is easy for me. Circa 2005 I had been teaching boys in a Scout Troop to tie the bowline, using games that involve tieing the bowline and throwing the rope to a "drowning" boy who would then be dragged to "shore". While we were on a snowshoe hike, the youngest and newest boy in the troop became separated and slid down a shoot about thirty feet of deep, steep and soft powder snow he couldn't climb out of. Another adult wanted to take charge of that rescue, but I held him back and tossed a rope to the senior Scouts who were Star and Life. They managed to tie a bowline, lower one Scout down to aid the struggling Scout and get everyone back up again. I think all the Scouts learned something about Scout skills from that.

Interesting thread with A LOT of varied ideas! I started attending my district's Roundtables in 2004. I found the Cub Scout Roundtables to be more fun, and they were fairly well attended at the time, so I tended to hang my hat there. Unfortunately, the Cub Roundtable Commissioners went on to other things, and attendance went into decline. Last year we had a very good former Cubmaster as RT Commissioner, and I tried to assist him where I could. His last Roundtable was in June. For lack of anyone else to carry on, I've been doing my best to assemble a program each month. We've slowly seen some increase in attendance. One of my aims has been to limit the Cub Scout Roundtable to no more than an hour ---7:30-8:30 for us. I've had several favorable comments on that. Cub Rountable attendees leave while the Boy Scout Roundtable continues for an extended period of time each month. Personally I expect Roundtable to be a forum for annoucements. I did a Tiger Cub Den Leader training before Roundtable in June --- I'd be glad to co-ordinate such things. The DE used the Roundtable night to distruibute recharter packets in October and to pick them up in November. That actually drew people in to Roundtable. Our January Roundtable is going to be a presentation by a talented former Cubmaster, now a new Scoutmaster: "What to do with Webelos! By the time a Cub Scout hits Webelos age, they've probably done most of the annual Pack activities a couple times, and are looking for new adventures. They'll also be eyeing the Boy Scout program, but may have questions or concerns. We'll give you some great ideas to spice up your Webelos program and avoid the "been there done that" syndrome. We'll also provide good suggestions on learning more about Boy Scouts and getting your Scouts excited about crossing over." Our February program is going to be on "Recruiting and Retaining Hispanic Youth." Our March program is going to be a model of how a FUN recruiting night can be run. We are more or less going to be DOING a recruiting night, with pack leaders invited to bring their Scouts to a fun activity (making and launching stomp bottle rockets). After March though I'm running out of time and ideas. If the DE and District Officers don't come up with a new Roundtable Commissioner, the Cub Scout program may fail.

Y'all need to come to our January Roundtable. A Scouter who was one of the district's best Cubmasters and is now working to be one of it's best Scoutmasters is going to be making a presentation on Webelos: "What to do with Webelos! By the time a Cub Scout hits Webelos age, they've probably done most of the annual Pack activities a couple times, and are looking for new adventures. They'll also be eyeing the Boy Scout program, but may have questions or concerns. We'll give you some great ideas to spice up your Webelos program and avoid the "been there done that" syndrome. We'll also provide good suggestions on learning more about Boy Scouts and getting your Scouts excited about crossing over."