SeattlePioneer

> Wow! Very Impressive! Our Commissioner Corp is weak and we haven't recruited many people. What's your method of recruiting new Commissioners?

Beavah, Perhaps the Blue and Gold tradition is a poor one for 7-10 year olds, but it's a great setting to pitch the Friends of Scouting! Could there be a relationship do you suppose?

Just a reminder--- While rechartering the spelling of names can be changed, addresses, phone numbers and e-mails changed. It's probably worthwhile giving people the opportunity to update that information.

As a way to dig your way out of a weather created bind, it sounds excellent! Otherwise, I'd be in agreement with Basementdweller.

I think I'd turn the bad check over to a collection agency, expecting to get the face value of the check plus the bad check fee. Less the 50% fee of the collection agency.

I am Commissioner for one pack. I saw the Cubmaster at Roundtable last Thursday. I attended the Pack Committee meeting in January. I will be attending the Pack Blue and Gold dinner Wednesday. And I e-mailed the Cubmaster and Pack Committee Chair this evening about using the "Journey to Excellence" evaluation this year, along with some ideas on how to use it that I'll be trying out in my own pack.

"Multiple channels, multiple times if you want the word to get out." That sums it up VERY well! It occurs to me that we should encourage unit leaders to have strategies to pass on information to other unit leaders and parents as well. Unfortunately, I think it's common for information to get to unit leaders and no farther. I'm guilty of that myself. I'm currently thinking about strategies to encourage my pack registered leaders to take more on line training. On the one hand, I know that everyone has registered on MYScouting.Org and completed Youth Protection Training. I'm thinking my next step would be to encourage them to take Fast Start, Leader Specific or other on line training, and to keep following that up by e-mails and in person. Of course you run the risk of being the Pack Nag.

Hmmmm. We seem to be doing better than some... Our council has a newsy e-mail newsletter which is a reasonable start. Of course it is going to have outdated email addreses and such. The council has a quarterly "Council Coordinated Meeting" which is kind of a council roundtable. All district volunteers and commissioners are invited to attend ---- probably 200-250 show up. After a general session for everyone there are numerous breakout sessions for district Key 3, Roundtable Commissioners, District Membership Chairs and numerous other groups. Of course there is a good council website and district websites of varying quality and utility. Our monthly district meetings are adequately attended. Anyone is welcome of course, but mostly it's district committee volunteers plus the DE. We have a Cub Scout and Boy Scout Roundtable plus Order of the Arrow Chapter meetings the second Thursday. The Boy Scout Roundtable attracts more people than my Cub Scout Roundtable, including quite a few district volunteers. The district does an annual planning meeting that takes a morning in January to set goals and review what happened the previous year --- attended by the usual district volunteers. There is a table for flyers at Roundtable. The usual e-mail blasts. I'd say we have a good list of e-mail addresses anyway. Personally I figure I'm as well informed of what's happening of anyone save perhaps the DE. I attend all the meetings, and even if sometimes things go in one ear and out another, I usually get enough repetition so that things stick after a while. But there are units we rarely hear from -- weak units. I have two Cub Packs I know well and make a point of shooting useful stuff on to unit leaders. Other weak units I call from time to time --- but they really need not only Commissioners, but GOOD Commissioners, and we are short on those. I would conclude that the person who is interested CAN stay well informed. The person who doesn't make an effort runs a significant risk of being poorly informed. More GOOD Commissioners would probably be the biggest help, but they don't grow on trees.

In another thread we are discussing how to communicate important changes such as the change from Tour Permits to the new Tour Planning Worksheet. Communicating how the new Journey to Excellence award that is replacing the Centennial Quality Unit Award is another example of something that needs to be communicated to unit leader effectively. And there are many other examples. What methods does your district use to communicate with unit leaders, and how effective are they? How could those methods be improved? There are always units that never get the word or don't understand it when they do. How can you improve on that? What methods are particularly ineffective?

Frankly I think it was a good thing for the Training Chair to wish to give the important news of a new kind of trip permit to unit leaders. But since that effort wasn't well received by the District Commissioner/Roundtable Commissioner, I'd toss that into the DE's lap and let him deal with it. He must work with the District Commissioner a lot, and I imagine that he can decide how to get the word out to unit leaders. Last Thursday our DE did a presentation at a joint Cub Scout/Boy Scout Roundtable on BOTH the new Journey To Excellence award AND the Trip Planning Worksheet. That took about 15 minutes. It DID mean we ran over my one hour time limit for Roundtable, but I think everyone thought it time well spent. Moosetracker, I'm surprised your DE didn't take over from you plans to present this information. I'd say it's his job to pick up the pieces when two volunteers find themselves with some conflict. While unfortunate, things like that happen from time to time. I hope both parties will let this go and plan to continue to work together in the future.

Is fence mending a Pioneering activity? The Blue Angels thing sounds like it probably wore out it's welcome at that Roundtable. Boring people at Roundtable simply insures that a lot of people wont come back again. I would have been very unhappy with that one as RT Commissioner! Good luck in getting the word out to units. We really need to start a new thread on how to do that effectively.... And jhankins, What would you like to see presented at Roundtable? How long should Roundtable last?(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello Moose, > Our Roundtable starts at 7:30. When we do trainings they have usually been scheduled for 6:30 with the aim of encouraging the newly trained to move to the remainder of the Roundtable after the training is completed. That exposes new people to Roundtable. Whether that encourages people to return or stay away might be an interesting question some times! I might add that one of my most popular policies as Cub Scout RT Commissioner has been limiting rounftable to no more than an hour. The Boy Scout RT goes on for 1.5-2 hours, and I think that discourages people from attending. Sorry to hear about your conflicts with the RT Commissioner. One thing to do would be to ask the District Commissioner to encourage more cooperation with other Scouters. Also --- how many people attend this Roundtable and does the RT Commissioner have a quality program? If he attracts a good turnout and has a good program you might want to cut him some slack. For What it's worth (not a lot) The Cub Scout Roundtable Planning Guide for the February Roundtable suggests allowing five minutes for announcements "Spokespeople for upcoming events make announcements. Make sure they are available for questions after the meeting."(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Here's an example of the Boy Scout Roundtable Planning Guide: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/18-941.pdf Due to popular demand at our February Roundtable, I am planning to make the August Roundtable revolve around the best ways to organize a popcorn sale. That would include having the most succesful packs in the district describe their methods and topics raised in these forums such as ways to minimize the risk of fraud and theft of funds during the popcorn sale.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

You may not be aware of it, but BSA distributes a suggested program for Roundtables like the "Program Helps" series. That program concentrates mainly on examples unit programs for the next month ---- my roundtable did program themes for March at the february Roundtable. There is a segment suggested at about five minutes for "announcements." If that is what your Roundtable Commissioner does with his program, he is following the BSA program. Frankly, however, I have aimed my Cub Scout Roundtable Program more at the kind of training you have described. My March Roundtable is planned to be a model Recruiting night, for example. Adult leaders and their Cub Scouts will be invited to make stomp bottle rockets together (a great recruiting night activity) and then while the Cub Scout are launching their rockets I will be demonstrating other elements of a good recruiting night program. Our February Roundtable included a presentation by the DE on the new Quality Unit Program and how that can be used by units to help improve their program. The DE also discussed the replacement for Trip Permits, discussing when permits were NOT required. THAT was popular! My personal aim has been to use Roundtable to expose units to the best practices available on how to manage and lead their units. Last month we had a talented Cubmaster go over the elements and methods of putting together an effective Webelos program, and December had a district volunteer describe the methods of recruiting additional volunteers. So my style and method would conform to the expectations you outline for Roundtable. But your Roundtable Commissioner may well be following the BSA Roundtable plan. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

In my February 8th post, I provided an example of a prospective Cub Scout parent asking about the role of religion in our pack, and thye reply I made. As it happens, I called the parent a few days later, and she said she didn't want to join Cub Scouts now because they didn't have time for it now. I will be sending additional invitations to join in the fall, when she wants to consider Cub Sciouting again. So apparently my reply and our program policy to encourage Cub Scouts to follow their family religious tradition were not off putting in this case.

I take people at their word that they've had bad experiences with Wood Badge and Wood Badge Trained people. I took WB in 1985. It was a good experience for me. I would never require Wood Badge as a condition for any ordinary Scout position, but I'd encourage people to take it if they have the time and money to deepen and extend their Scouting experience. As a district leader myself, I can't recall anyone being screened out of a leadership position because they hadn't taken Wood Badge. It might be commented on as a recomendation from time to time, if someone knows. I've never heard of problems caused by Wood Badge in other districts of the council either.

As I understand the facts, the key mistake here was taking the order from the family without the order sheet being turned in. Had the order sheet been turned in, the family could have been given a reasonable time to collect the popcorn, and when they failed to do it another family could have completed the sale and received credit for the sale. The pack is exposed between the time the popcorn has been picked up and the payments received. If the family fails to make the deliveries, or fails to turn in the payments, the pack is exposed to losses. The biggest weakness in the system is probably dealing with new families you don't know. Would it be reasonable to limit new families that join in September to a maximum sale of say $200 or so? Requiring families to pay cash with their order to the pack presents some problems too. Do you really want someone with a packet of receipts collecting cash they then hold on to for several weeks? People posting say that works, but perhaps that's because they haven't been burned.... yet. How about a rule that popcorn orders must be paid by check ---- no cash payments accepted? That would seem to improve the protection for everyone. Cash is a slippery commodity. "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." Prohibiting cash payments might be the best way to implement that goal. I'm planning a Cub Scout Roundtable in August on how to manage a popcorn sale effectively. I'm expecting to bring in packs that have consistantly good sales and Scouts that have notable sales (including a Cub Scout who sold the most in the council). A segment on how to manage the financial problems and risks should probably be a part of that as well.

With all your Scouting experience and training and your Commissioner training inparticular, I'm surprised you can't come up with a less confrontational strategy than the one you've described. If your friend the IH wants to appoint you COR, you can do just what you want. But Scouting depends on volunteers, and as I suggested earlier I think you would run a substantial risk of a Pyrric victory on the rubble of the Cub Pack. Whether that is worthwhile is an interesting question. I certainly don't support some of the things you describe. Your own experience with multiple Cub Packs shows how easy it is for a Cub Pack to fail, and the difficulties in making one work. What you wanted was to be able to contact the Webelos families. If your IH asks the District Executive he should be able to get a current roster to give you with the contact information for Webelos Scouts and parents. You can invite them to an attractive activity and sell the attractions of your troop along with a strategy for avoiding hostility from current pack leadership.

Last year my district had a day camp melt down, with the day camp director resigning a couple of weeks before the camp was scheduled to begin and little in the way of recruiting volunteers having been done. I was pressed into being the nominal day camp director while pretty much the entire council professional staff spent much of the week staffing up the camp. We got by, but not something to be repeated. This year a woman who was an excellent Tiger Cub Den Leader a year ago OFFERED to help with day camp. Our District Execeutive thanked her for agreeing to be the Day Camp Director! [i think you can overdo that approach. Do that to the wrong person and they will tend to resign a couple of weeks before the activity begins]. However, I think she will do fine. She has already signed up to take the national training offered in how to organize day camp. Our district has one pack that has taken "ownership" of the shooting sports ---- BB guns, archery and wrist rockets. They recruit the leaders they need from their pack and see to it they get the required training, set up the ranges and do a fine job of running that program, year after year. The past two years, I've taken charge of running the Tiger Twilight camp on the same basis. It occurred to me that perhaps we ought to ask other packs with strong programs to take charge of a program element such as cooking, wood working or whatver. Delegate running that program to them and let them recuit the leaders they need from their pack. So I e-mailed that suggestion to the day camp director, along with the leaders of two packs that ought to be strong enough to take that kind of responsibility. Perhaps she will give that a try and see how it works. If it does work, it might be possible to ask those pack to to ownership of that program element in future years as well, simplifying the task of organizing the day camp. In general, it's a good idea to take advantage of the den and pack structure when organizing Cub Scout activities, and perhaps that might apply to organizing day camp as well. Any other bright ideas that might make it easier to organize day camp?

> I'm not sure how Wolf-Bear-Lion-Scout= Webelos. Wouldn't that be WBeLoS? Perhaps someone finally noticed this and that's where WE'll BE LOyal Scouts came from? Perhaps some of those Lion Scouts can explain this mysterry.

I agree Scoutnut. Good political strategy though. Short term. A little longer term and it may result in no Cub Pack as parents and leaders abandon it.

I've never heard Beavah make a claim that he is an attorney. Perhaps he would care to do so. My basic objection is that as I understand it, an agency relationship is a contract between a master and servant to do some particular kinds of things. To me that implies that you have to have a meeting of the minds to agree to be someone's agent. Nothing of the sort is established in the adult leader application or anywhere else. The name of the CO is not even mentioned in the adult leader application. Secondly, the contractual relationship is between the CO and the BSA. Just because the CO and BSA have a contract doesn't establish the adult leader as an agent. A CO that wants their unit leaders to be agents would need to ask them to sign an agency contract defining the mutual duties between the master and servant. If A and B have a contract, does that obligate person C to A? No.

The Council can fold a unit or dismiss adult leaders too. So exactly WHERE did the CO appoint me as their agent? Exactly no where is the answer. The fact that the CO approves me as a leader doesn't make me their agent. The name of the CO appears no where on the adult leader application. The CO can own the bank account and property of the unit, but it can't make someone an agent without their agreement, which is no where solicited on the adult leader application. And the unit has far more in direct relationships with the BSA and it's council than it does with the typical CO. I pointed out in another thread that in a child abuse case, a neighboring council made the claim that it had no libaility because the CO (an LDS Church) appointed the leaders. That claim was rejected when the case went to trial and the council was found liable for the actions of unit leaders. I again suggest that since no one is an Xpert on agency law, that reasonable people are going to disagree about such things. I know Beavah rejected that too, suggesting that only unreasonable people could fail to agree with him. Despite that, we are back to the idea that reasonable people are going to disagree.

Well, you seem to be convinced by your own arguments, Beavah. I don't find them persuasive. A chartered organization could certainly establish an agency relationship with unit leaders by requiring them to sign such an agreement, detailing their responsibilities, as a condition of becoming a unit leader. LDS units might have something like that going with their leaders. The adult leader application is signed not only by the COR, but by the Scout Executive or his designee. Above the signatures is noted "Approvals For Unit Scouters We are unaware of anything contrary to the information stated in this application. This application has been reviewed according to BSA procedures and this applicant meets the leadership qualifications of the Boy Scouts Of America" Nothing there about adhearing to the policies or standards of the CO. Leaders DO need to meet the standards of the BSA. Again, can you show me where the unit leader is agreeing to become an agent of the CO? I simply don't see anything about that at all in the adult leader application. IF adults were told they were going to be agents of a church for which they were not a member, or agents for a VFW Post they were not eligible to join, many would probably have reservations about it. And probably many of those chartered organizations might have reservations as well. Instead, what adults understand is that they are going to be leaders in a SCOUT UNIT, run under the rules of the BSA. That's the common understanding I think, and that's what the adult leader application says. The fact that the COR can fire a unit leader doesn't change that fact nor make the unit leader an agent of the CO. The BSA can fire unit leaders too, needless to say, and the Scout Executive can refuse to appoint adult leaders as well. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello Beavah, In looking through the adult leader application, there is NOTHING that appoints leaders to be agents of the Chartered Organization. The Charter certificate says: "Boy Scouts of America CHARTER Granted to the XXX [Chartered Organization] Upon Application Through Authorized Representatives to Carry on the Scouting Program for Character Development, Citizenship Training, Mentalo and Physical Fitness Subject to the Provisions of the Charter and Bylaws and Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America....." The Chartered Organization is certainly free to impose additional obligations on unit leaders which might indeed make them agents of the Chartered Organization. But you can't be an agent unless you AGREE TO BECOME ONE! The fact that the Co approves my position in the unit doesn't mean I'm their agent. Frankly, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't claim to be versed in the fine point of agency law. I simply don't find your claim that unit leaders are agents of the CO and to owe a duty of loyalty to the CO to be convincing. You do. I don't think you have a compelling case, so we'll simply have to disagree on that issue.