SeattlePioneer

Here is an e-mail I received after talking to a parent about Cub Scouts: Hi Will, Thank you for the informative detail. I am glad that we spoke. I briefly read the information you emailed and it reminded me some the questions I had but forgot to ask: The scout is not based or followed on any religious belief? Its goal is not to educate children per particular religion? What is the demographic of the scout? I want to expose my son to a diverse and multicultural environment and teach him to appreciate it. And my reply: Scouting encourages each Scout to do their "Duty to God." 1. We encourage boys to follow the religious practices and values of their families 2. We encourage boys to respect the religious values and traditions of other people. As an example of that: February 6th is "Scout Sunday." Once per year we encourage boys and families to attend their place of worship and to ask to have Scouting recognized during the service. Pack 240 will have a Scout Sunday recognition at St Bernadette Catholic Church that day. Cub Scout families are invited to attend that service if they wish. Attendance is voluntary. Pack 240 families are welcome to have a Scout Sunday recognition at their own place of worship if they wish. Participation in a Scout Sunday service is not required. At present we have about ten boys in Pack 240. All of them are white. We would be glad to have your family join the pack and help us become a more ethnically diverse Cub Scout Pack. And we are interested in recruiting more boys from varying ethnic groups. This family hasn't turned out to the meeting they were invited to last night nor responded to my phone calls inviting them. Perhaps we don't get the one meeting sometimes.

So what kind of accident injury situations have you encountered while on Scout activities or outings? Who took charge and dealt with the problems? How effective were those interventions? How well prepared was your group to deal with the problems in terms of materials and training? What needed to be improved?

Clements, The Mountaineerring Oriented First Aid course (MOFA) I sdescribed didn't involve or practice technical rescues. The practical problems presented were ones you might encounter on a hike or climb in the backcountry. What to do if you encounter a party suffering hypothermia or a hit by a falling rock, for example. You might need to deal with the panic and confusion an injury often causes in a group, find someone to take charge and identify someone to provide first aid while others need to determine whether someone can be evacuated or a procedure for sending people out for aid. It's remarkable how a group usually becomes unglued when a significant injury occurs. The need for SOMEONE to take charge and for others to cooperate with that person is an important learned skill Are those kinds of things emphasized in the Wilderness First Aid course? (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Excellent post by Beavah. The issue of loyalty within Scouting is an interesting one. When a Scout or family voluntarily JOINS a program, I think they should understand that it's an organization of volunteers and they should expect to contribute to the welfare of the unit when they can. But Scouts and families are free to shop around among Scout units for one that suits their purposes. So until one joins a unit, I think it's unreasonable to demand or expect people to join a particular one. On the other hand, good Scouts might choose to join a weak program in order to help improve and build it up. That would be a gift by a generous person. As to loyalties or expectations to support the council or district, it's appropriate to exercise some judgment. If someone has unhappy experiences with the council or district, I wouldn't be surprised if people chose not to do much to support those organizations. But Scouting needs good councils and districts to function effectively. Generally speaking I think units and unit leaders should support districts and councils as part of the Scouting program. But mostly people make their own decisions about such things. I'll be pitching the Friends of Scouting Campaign to the Cub Pack for which I'm Commissioner in a couple of weeks. I've been a Commissioner for that unit since 2004 when I helped it get started again after it collapsed. I'm well known among Cub Scouts and parents since I recruited most of them through school visits and helping with activities over the years. I usually get a pretty good level of donations from the Pack, but usually don't meet the donation level suggested by the council. People donate what they can afford and what they choose to contribute. I make the appeal and people decide for themselves. If we have done a good job of selling Scouting values to boys and families, and the district and council have been demonstrating good Scouting values, I don't think we have much to worry about in the "loyalty" department.

Those Scout Troops need to sharpen up their skills and fitness.

I do NOT agree that LOYALTY should be invoked in a Cub Scout's decision on moving to a troop. That sounds like a con job being used on a boy or family when a Scout troop isn't cutting the mustard. It's a misuse and perversion of the Scout Law, in my opinion.

The Seattle area Red Cross has had a Mountaineering Oriented First Aid class for 30-40 years that sounds quite similar to what is being described. It includes an evening of practical problems done with climbing gear at night, and preferably in the rain. I've been involved in several backcountry rescue episodes, including two helecopter evacuations, one by a MAST helecopter that put one skid down on glacier sloping at 10 degrees or so while hovering to keep the craft level. Those experiences have led me to conclude that it's far more important to avoid accidents in the first place than to try to pick up the pirces after one has occurred. The most important First Aid question to ask is "should I go hiking/backpacking/climbing today or stay at home or in camp?" Most people get in trouble by trying to move when they ought to bivuac and stay put, or not start. Based on fatal accidents rweported in the American Alpine Club's annual "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" most fatal accidents are the result of foolish and excessive risk taking by leaders. Unfortunately, that was not something that was covered by the MOFA course I took thirty odd years ago.

I agree with Hawkins. Running to the Institutional Head or Chartered Organization Rep isn't likely to cause anything but trouble. Most IHs aren't going to be interested in sorting out competing claims and few CORs are going to have the experience and expertise to do so. I'd be looking around for alternate ways to recruit new Scouts. One of the best, in my view, is to recruit among 5th and/or 6th graders at elementary schools. If you are smart, you'd propose a JOINT recruiting program with your Cub Pack and start worming your way back into their good graces. I do recruiting for my Cub Pack in five elementary schools, including the Chartered Organization's paqrochial school. In the spring I go to schools during lunch breaks and hand out stickers to K-4 grade boys to our pack recruiting night. I also talk to 5-6th grade boys and invite them to the Troop's recruiting night which can be held the same night. Those 5th and 6th grade boys are good recruiting prospects. The council is happy to have 5th graders recruited into troops in the spring.

So a competing Scout Troop has spent 5-6 years or more contributing leadership to the Cub Pack and selling parents and leaders on the idea that they have a desireable program. That's exactly what smart troops do. Scouting always emphasizes planning in pretty much everything. Planning where you are going to get the boys you need for your program and taking the steps needed to insure they come are part of the Scouting game. Yiour competition has been doing that. Your troop has not. Blaming the other troop for being smart while you guys neglected that and hoped boys from the pack would come to you because your had the same unit number apparently hasn't worked well as a strategy. I think you are going to have to smarten up a lot to compete with that troop.

I just encountered this unit website--- it's fun! http://www.4scouting.com/ If you know of other good unit websites I invite you to post a link to them.

If you look at the official BSA list of responsibilities for pretty much any position, there is usually a LOT more listed than any reasonable person is going to be able to do. You might also notice that Scouting tends to load people up on a wide variety of activities people can do in addition to those duties. So how to deal with that? In my view, one element of leadership is making choices. So I look through the lengthy list of things suggested and make choices about the things I am good at doing or that I'm interested in doing. Of course I also weight the needs of the groups that I serve --- that's a part of making choices too. But District Executive don't dictate to unit leaders about trivial things like Quality Unit Awards. That's an optional program and if you don't want to do it, fine. And Frankly Brent Allen, your list of expectations seems unreasonably broad to me. Perhaps you can make that stick in your unit, and if so, you can ask for whatever you want. But I wonder how many good people you screen out with an extensive list of formal training like that? Perhaps you can flog people into complying with that, but personally I'm not impressed.

People are different and families are different. I hope I don't look down my nose at what other families do. Most parents are doing there best. Sometimes that may not be very good. People are often good in some areas of life and have weaknesses in others. In my view, Scouting isn't just a program for youth --- it's a program for parents and families as well. Through our programs we can show some parents alternative ways of living their lives and managing their family life. Parents who see groups of young people getting through a weekend of activities without hollering, screaming and fighting may start thinking about how that is achieved. And parents who attend Scout Meetings and outing wind up practicing those skills, since hollering and shouting at Scouts is not the methods encouraged to be used during outings. Personally, it's rare that I aim to judge parents and families. But I think Scouting often has an impact on parents and families.

What a disappointment! As I understand it, boys can continue in a Webelos den until they complete 5th grade. In the absence of boys ready to crossover into Boy Scouts, there's really no occasion for a crossover ceremony and the den can continue to function. No Arrow of Light of course, just as you describe. How do the parents of the other boys feel about this situation? Is the WDL just burned out? Is a Scout Troop willing to provide a Den Chief to develope some enthusiasm? I supposing you will be getting a variety of other ideas being posted on how you might deal with this. I think you ask some good questions. I hope you'll open another thread and describe some of your ceremonies, too!

When I go looking for a leader, I look for the best person to do the job and work to persuade them to do it. If they refuse me, I go to the next best person. That's the recommended BSA procedure, and often it works. I try to avoid asking people to volunteer to do stuff, because the wrong person can volunteer ---- someone who can't or wont do the job. So that's usually my last option. Still, that can work and it's certainly a pleasent surprise when it does. Last August I was out of candidates to lead the popcorn sale. I brought it up at our last pack committee meeting and was ready to abandon the sale when a parent unexpectedly volunteered. I had my doubts that person would be able to do that fairly complexs job, but she did a fine job. The BSA also has the ScoutParent Coordinator position, which is designed to have one committee member whose primary task is to ask each family to do at least one task for the unit each year. We registered a ScoutParent Coordinator this year, and I want to see if I can get that person to do the job. She will be 1) greeting new families as they join the Cub Pack and helping them get oriented to Cub Scouts and 2) discussing with them the range of activities we need help with and signing them up to help with an activity they would either LIKE to do or are GOOD at doing. Too often when things need to be done, the tendency is to look around at committee meetings and ask someone who has already done a lot to do more. FAR better to get new people into the habit of volunteering to help right away! The ScoutParent Coordinator is the person who should have their finger on the names of people who haven't helped and be talking to them about the things that need to be done with which they can help. All this is straight out of BSA recommended procedures. It may take a little time to get our ScoutParent Coordinator operating the way I'd like, but we are giving it a try.

Scouting is usually among the first casualties of a divorce war. As is often the case, the child is the customary victim in divorce.

Basement Dweller, Opinions and situations differ. For families new to Scouting, I think there's something to be said for formally welcoming and recognizing leaders, just as is done for youth. Handing out awards to youth can be done in ways that are boring and tedious too. The way to keep youth interested in to keep a mix of games, competitions, songs, run on, skits mixed in with awards and recognition. That's my view, anyway. Saying "Thank you" in sincere and creative ways is the smart thing to do. Many people value and appreciate it, even if you do not. Perhaps that's somewhat less important in Scout Troops than it is in Cub Scout Packs. Also, Cub Scout Packs typically have monthly pack meeting while Troop Courts of Honor often occur quarterly.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

drmbear, I think your objection is reasonable, but I don't think it's reasonable to wait around for weeks or months to get the program started. If the Tiger Cub Den Leader is trained in how the program is upposed to work, he has as good a chance as anyone else of expecting parents to help the way they should. To me it is ESSENTIAL that new Tiger Cub Dens get started as soon as practical. I see WAY too many packs fail to get a Tiger Cub Den started, and when that happens the families that have joined drop out in a hurry, which can damage the whole program and make it VERY difficult to get things started again. So my bias is 1) Get things started right away 2) identify your new Tiger Cub Den Leader right away. Get your Tiger Cub Den Leader Trained right away. Get the program meeting and working and it will then probably work things out pretty well. That is my aim, anyway. Making it happen can be a challenge.

jrush, I think the application and BSA policy pretty explicitly rules out atheism for boys and leaders. Personally, I wouldn't interrogate adults or youth closely on their religious beliefs. All thy really need to do is affirm a belief in a god of some kind or variety. In an earlier post I suggested that many people these days seem to have adopted nature worship as a religion as a practical matter. Nature worship doesn't seem to be one of the religions explicitly recognized by BSA, but perhaps it ought to be. On only one occasion have I been questioned about my religious beliefs. I was questioned by the District Chair: Q. Do you believe in God? A. Yes. Q. Are you a member of a church? A. No. Q. Would you be interested in visiting my church? A. No. I'm pretty adaptable as far as religion goes. A church that produces people who are worthy of respect in the way they live their lives has earned my respect.

If you Google "Trail to Bobcat" you can find several little booklets that describe the Bobcat requirements in reasonable detail, except for #8. When boys join the pack, their parents helps the boy put on a neckerchief and slide which the pack provides. The boy gets the "Trail to Bobcat" handbook which has a place for them to put their name. At recruiting nights our theme is usually "Do Your Best" and we have a competition like a Rainhutter Regatta where boys assemble and race their boat, so they get an understanding of what we mean by doing your best and get that requirement signed off in their new booklet. That gets boys off to a good start, but things still often lag BADLY in getting requirement #8 signed off!

I've never served in a unit with bylaws. However, I wont say they are never a good idea. Bylaws that required prudent controls over cash and finances might be an area due some regulation. For example, I think it is wise for: 1) Monthly checking account statements be sent to someone other than the Treasurer. That can be a powerful check and review on what the treasurer is doing. 2) Require that receipts be issued for cash payments. Cash is slippery, and controls over cash are often sloppy in my experience. 3) Does your unit require two signatures on checks? That can be a nuisance, and banks usually aren't ghoing to police such things. My bias is to have the Committee Chair review checks written when the statement comes directly from the bank.

Interesting thread. As a Cubmaster who is his own Advancement Chair/Coordinator, I yearn for the day when I'll have someone to thank! Den Leaders, Committee Chair and Committee Members are recognized when appointed as pack leaders at a pack meeting. They receive the same neckerchief and slide that the boys receive when they join the pack, but instead of the parents helping the boys get the neckerchief on, the boys help their parent. I have a Cub Scout "Hero" award that gets pinned on adults who do a significant job like leading the popcorn sale. And while I think it was a shame that Advancement Coordinators weren't being recognized --- perhaps that is a byproduct of the excellent work they have done ---- they should have bought themselves a certificate or plaque to be awarded at a pack meeting or Court of Honor! I aslo suggest that Committee Chairs should be on the lookout for people to put in for Scout "knot" awards, which come with the knot and a nice certificate. That's a nice opportunity to recognize people for their contribution. And yes, this takes some time. But I think it is both polite and "friendly, courteous and kind" to take the time to recognize volunteers. If pack meetings or courts of honor are boring, the program needs top be enlivened with more games and activities to capture the interest of Scouts.

I'd been thinking about making a small donation to the Catholic parish that is our Chartered Organization. This thread motivated me to e-mail our Committee Chair and Treasurer suggesting a $25 donation --- the CC e-mailed me back approving the idea if it's approved by the Treasurer. It's a small donation, but we are a small pack. One motivation I have among several is to look for ways to become more a part of the parish community --- only two pack members are also members of the parish. We also have Scout Sunday recognition this Sunday and a Parish service project being planned for later in February. We have invited the Parish lay leader and Parish Priest to our Blue and Gold dinner, and perhaps we'll be able to give them our small donation at that time.

As far as I'm concerned, parents can soft pedal the issue as much as they wish. I make that pretty clear when I send out e-mail reminders reminding new parents that I need them to notify me when they deem that requirement completed and their son eligible for the Bobcat award. PERHAPS I should simply inform/remind parents that I trust them to have dealt with the issues involved in ways they deem appropriate and go ahead and award the Bobcat based on that assumption. So far, I've required parents to tell me when they have completed the requirement in a way that satisfies THEM. It just drives me nuts after a while.

Abel Magwitch, Around here, schools that used to provide free facilities for Cub Packs are charging as a matter of school district policy this year. A pack that got free use of the school lunchroom in the past is paying $50 per session this year. Other school districts, schools or school proncipals are indifferent or hostile to Scouting these days. I wouldn't be too eager to abandon churches as chartered partners in favor of public agencies. I suspect that may have a propensity to bite units in varying ways.

Stosh, You describe a very realistic relationship with your American Legion chartered partner. Both the Troop and the Legion seem to be working together cooperatively to make things work. In times of financial stress like these perhaps it's not unreasonable to ask Scout units to help with the costs of providing services. Frankly I don't know if a charge for utilities and such violates the Charter agreement. But some kind of charge doesn't sound unreasonable to me if the unit can afford it and still provide a quality program. I also like the offer to help with fundraisers, too. That suggests an understanding and appreciation of the problems of the CO and a creative effort to be of help. My own very weak pack has not been asked to make a contribution to the Catholic Parish that is our CO. Despite that, I am considering asking our Pack Committee to make a $25 contribution to the church to help with their good works. I actually consider that a little bit more than a token gesture. I figure that even a small contribution is likely to be appreciated by the CO. Times are tough. Perhaps more units should be thinking about what we can do to help our COs rather than what we can get from them.