SeattlePioneer

Really Kudu, You have already put your sneering, cocksure attitude on display several times. Additional repetition is really not needed. I suppose you will take pride at ruining a thread that might have proved to be valuable to other people. Your work here is done!

The Cub pack for which I am Cubmaster was down to one boy two years ago, when I undertook an effort to rebuild it. It's still struggling. In another year it will be on it's own, and I will be off to other things that need to be done or are desireable to do. Last June, our Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner left, with no one to replace him. I've been putting together a Roundtable program since then, and have plans for program through March at this point. Sorry if the program I've selected doesn't meet with your approval. At some point before too long, if my district officers don't come up with a replacement, I will be leaving that program. Personally I try to work with weak and failing programs to give them a new lease on life. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. I have never been a volunteer with a strong Cub Pack or Troop. Frankly, you are welcome to your self satisfied pride. Perhaps it's earned. But your sneering, cocksure arrogance that you've displayed several times on this thread is a character weakness, in my opinion.

Well, it's obvious Kudu is happy with his program and sees no need to consider anything that might add to it. He's certainly welcome to that. Unfortunately, business as usual has not been doing a good job at all of recruiting and retaining Hispanic youth. And that failure has led pretty directly to the Soccer and Scouting program Kudu despises. My efforts are aimed at improving the performance of traditional Cub Scout and Boy Scout units, hoping to find ways to improve the number of Hispanics participating in Scouting. Whether that will do much good remains to be seen. Bright ideas are cheap ----bright ideas that WORK are rare, and my ideas are only ideas at this point. I might add that for my March Roundtable I'm planning to invite Cub Scout pack leaders to bring their Scouts to a model of how a Recruiting night can be run. Those pack leaders will be making stomp bottle rockets with their sons as a recruiting night activity, and while the boys are blasting their rockets off outdoors I'll be running through my ideas for a recruiting program with the adults, just as in a real recruiting night new parents would be signed up for Scouting. Whatever good ideas surface at the January program on Recruiting Hispanic youth will be incorporated as part of that program. Usually getting pack leaders to turn out for training on recruiting is very difficult to do. My aim this time is to have an activity that will be FUN for parents and boys, just as a recruiting night should be fun to attract parents and boys. But again, that's just another bright idea at this point. But as district membership chair, I'm always on the lookout for ways of improving pack recruiting efforts. There are units that have excellent recruiting methods, but explaining those methods to other unit leaders and persuading them to give them a try is hard to do.

I would sure like to hear about the content of his program and his observations about how a good webelos program is run.

To me the key to a succesful Webelos program is CAMPING. If you try to make Webelos more Cub Scouts, you will lose them. In our district, Webelos are invited to the Klondike Derby and Camporee. The is a Webelos overnight camp run by a Troop. And I'd encourage Webelos den leaders to talk to several packs about finding troop overnights that would be suitable for the Webelos den to go along on. I also like the idea of Scout Troops inviting Webelos dens over to have Boy Scouts work with Webelos on advancement requirements. Basically anything to get the Webelos into the Boy Scout outing experience. If I had my druthers the Webelos would be partnering with Scout troops just about every week.

Scoutfish, We saw the same add ---- I sent it on to my nephew who's going to be graduating with a music degree from a liberal arts college in the spring. I also suggested he could consider applying for local camp staff positions as well.

While I was out doing my morning run, a couple of additional questions for Kudu occurred to me: You are obviously proud of your record of getting youths to request that you contact their parents to inquire about joining Scouting. But getting youths interested in Scouting is only a part of the issue. The real issue tends to be getting parents to sign on to their son joining the program, and then learning about and understanding the program so they can continue to support his participation. So Kudu, what do you do when you call a family and find only Spanish speakers available to talk to you? Or perhaps you find someone who speaks some English or a youth who acts as an intermediary with the parent? Do you find there are limitations to such methods? Suppose you had recruited that one bilingual parent as your Troops ScoutParent Co-ordinator who made those phone calls and was able to discuss the program intelligently in the native language of the parents. Do you suppose that might improve your recruiting record?

Kudu, Ignoring the ax-grinding you apparently relish--- I suggested in my opening post that in such situations, you might consider appointing the bi-lingual Spanish speaker a ScoutParent Co-ordinator, charged with communicating with other Spanish speaking families and bringing them into providing leadership for your unit as a group.

moosetracker, Unfortunately, I expect that the art of not registering Scouters will become a fine art in the years to come. You pointed out some methods to me that I hadn't thought of! I was just looking through MyScouting.Org for Pack Committee Chair Training, and I didn't see the specifric level training there. Unless I mmissed things, only a portion of the training can be taken on line for Cub Packs. I noticed only the fast start training for ScoutParent Co-ordinators, for example. Am I missing something? And personally I just don't care much for badgering volunteers. Maybe we should have an official position of "Pack Nag"? I suppose that would be the Pack Trainer, but I like my title better!

For a lot of Scouters who usually talk with pride about their boy led troops, I see a lot of talk about how adfult leaders are imposing their standards on what gets signed off. I repeat my earlier question: What do YOUR SCOUTS sign off as completing a requirement? And frankly, if you say they sign off requirements when they meet your standards of proficiency, I'd say it's doubtful that you have a boy led troop.

Hello LisaBob, My own pack is small and struggling, but I'm Commissioner for a couple of packs that are good sized and succesful ----one in particular is getting to the point of being hard to manage as I've described. They've been going in the direction of Pack212Scouter. I've suggested my bright idea of two pack meetings, but they are happier with Pack212's methods. I've taken the time to make badge presentations something that might be memorable for boys. But perhaps this winds up being boring for most boys as Pack 212 suggests. My aim has been to make the presentation reflect the work put into getting a badge and hoping top inspire other boys to want to complete their achievements and earn their badge. Eagle Scout and Arrow of Light ceremonies commonly inspire boys to work on advancement, at least for a while. Are more elaborate badge ceremonies worth the time and effort it takes to put them on?

I was a trumpet player as a youth ---a very mediocre one. Thirty years ago as a Scoutmaster, I loaned out my trumpet to a Scout who promised faithfully to practice with it. Never saw THAT again! When I rejoined Scouting as an adult leader in 2004, I bought a bugle at the Scout shop hoping I'd find ways to use it in the program. I have, but not as an Xpert bugler. I used it at a Camporee as the theme of a Camporee competition. Each Scout was given the chance to blow the bugle for whatever time they wished to take. For most it was proabbly their first time blowing a horn that was a musical instrument, but most got the idea enough to get some kind of note out. Each patrol was then asked to decide who their BEST bugler was, and that person was offered the opportunity to blow ANY bugle call ---- with Taps suggested as the easiest and most familiar. The best patrol bugler was invited to do the bugle calls for the rest of the Camporee and got the winning score in the competition. When I'm going in to elementary schools for Cub Scout recruiting, I carry my bugle in my backpack. At suitable moments I pull it out to show boys ---and of course they all want a chance to blow the bugle. I have to regretfully decline, since if the Principal found me making that much noise he'd take me by the ear and haul me out of there! However, I promise that boys who attend the recruiting night will have a chance to practice on the bugle, a promise which I keep of course. Unfortunately, my own efrforts to become a competent bugler again have fallen to sloth. It really requires daily practice for 2-3 months to get your lip in shapem, and I haven't been able to summon the motivation to do that. I've come fairly close. Scouts with a bugle should be expected to perfom at the Trooop opening and closing ceremoney as a method of encouraging daily practice, in my opinion. Get someone good at the skill and you have a classy way for your Troop to excel. A troop I was in had a 16 year old Scout who was allgedly a trumpet player, but he refused to practice and was a mediocre bugler who never improved -- he was a case study in how not to do your best. I DID practice, but not long enough to be more than a marginal bugler. When I was passing the bugle around among players, I had a bottle of alcohol and a cloth and I cleaned the mouthpiece between users.

As I noted Kudu, if traditional Scouting units did a much better job of recruiting and retaining Hispanic youth, I doubt that the head office would be looking at alternative programs to do that task. Rather than being hostile to the idea of improving the performance of traditional Scouting units with this group, you should be leading the charge in how to improve methods. Frankly, carping and complaining doesn't cut it in my book. I must say I am thoroughly unimpressed to the point of being appalled by your last post. And despite your claims to the contrary, the performance you describe suggests that you have a good deal you could learn, as do I.

Horizon, Very interesting and thoughful policy. Thanks for posting it.

Hello Eagle92, That's very good thinking! Taking advantage of existing community or church organizations around which ethnic groups organize might well make extending Scouting into those conmmunities easier and more effective. My Cub Pack has a Catholic Church as the Chartered Organization. One of my problems is that the Cub Pack is not effectively a part of the parish community --- so far anyway. (sort of stuck on the outside is the way I view it). But I can certainly ask if there is a Hispanic ministry and contact them if there is. If such a group were strong enough they could certainly form their own pack, or form their own dens under the existing pack. My bias would be to find ways by which they would feel welcome in the existing pack and could participate effectively in it. A Hispanic ministry could probably help manage that association and make that work better for everyone. Thanks for the idea! I'll ask about that!

As packs become larger the skills needed to manage and lead them change. The nature of the program may need to change as well. For example: with large packs it becomes increasingly difficult to hand out all the awards that have been earned with meaningful ceremonies. The time taken to do so keeps expanding in proportion to the number of boys until it pushes out other worthwhile activities, or the meetings get excessively long. I've toyed with the idea of having two separate pack meetings, one for Tigers and Wolves and the other for Bears and Webelos. Each could have similar program elements and other program elements that might be customized for the maturity level of the Cubs in the Pack. Of course there might be occasions when the whole pack met as a group. Any comments on this bright idea would be welcome.

I like Eagledad's approach as well. One approach I'd like to see is having two or more dens with a common program run by different Den Leadersor Assistant Den Leaders. You COULD have one Den Leader who devised the program, and several Assistant Den Leaders who executed that common plan among different groups of boys. That's kind of what Eagledad seems to do. More parents are probably willing and able to carry out a well crafted program than coming up with such a program. Also, I'd form dens with different names and flags. Not just a Wolf den, but the Gray Wolves, the Timber Wolves or whatever, each with it's own den cheer.

Hello Scoutfish, You describe your recruiting efforts to be absolutely without a cultural bias, and you welcome those of any ethnic group who find your program appealing. Well, that's pretty much what I've done as district membership chair since 2004. Unfortunately, my district has quite a few public and parochial schools that are 30-60% Hispanic, and not infrequently White students can be 30% of the students or less. Here's a list of elementary schools in one district. Those who care to can select any of the schools and the "demographics" link on the school page which reports the ethnic composition of the school. http://www.hsd401.org/ourschools/elementaryschools/ There are some schools heavily white, and more where whites form a minority. Quite a number where Hispanics compose 30-60% of the student population. Unfortunately I've found that relatively few Hispanic families are attracted by the methods I use, and of those who join a goodly number drop out pretty rapidly. If you don't consider that a problem, then you have no problem. Personally, I do consider it a problem, and I'm looking for ways to be more welcoming to Hispanic families so they will join Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, and stay a part of the program for years. Frankly, I don't know how to do that at this point. I have questions rather than answers. But personally I think we should be asking the questions and looking for the answers. It may be that your unit or district doesn't confront that kind of challenge, but my pack, my district and the BSA nationally DOES face that challenge in my opinion. And I would like to thank those like Scoutfish who have challenged the issues I have raised. They require me to think through the issues with greater care. The more I think about them the more convinced I am that we need to find improved methods to recruit and retain Hispanic youth and families in areas where there are substantial Hispanic immigrant populations. Some may not wish to use those methods. I have no objection to that. I certainly hope we never have membership quotas. But if we learn how to make that appeal effectively, we will charter new Scout units that will serve more youth in areas impacted by immigration. Multi cultural units will be able to expand their membership to serve additional populations. That would be a plus for Scouting, in my opinion.

Hello moosetracker, I really know next to nothing about the Soccer and Scouting program. Personally, my interest is in conventional Scouting. I understand people being concerned about Scouting being hijacked by such programs. Nor am I an advocate of the immigration history we've had in recent decades. I'm simply confronted by the reality of that immigration, which I can't responsibly ignore. So I'm looking for effective ways to deal with it THROUGH CONVENTIONAL CUB SCOUT AND BOY SCOUT PROGRAMS. If we can figure out how to do that, Soccer and Scouting and other such compromises wont be alternatives some will feel the need to pursue and expriment with. I appreciate your last post, and I keep trying to dig myself out from the kind of misunderstanding you describe.

Interesting theory Beavah, one I put to the test. It failed. The Seattle Mountaineers has a Basic climbing course and an Intermediate climbing course, both taught entirely by volunteers. Basic course graduates who choose to continue on to the intermediate climbing course do much of the practical teaching of the Basic course, such as teach knots, doing equipment inspections and such. I took the Basic Course and was then one of the teachers in the Basic course as an Intermediate student. The knot recommended for tieing in to a rope in the "bowline on a coil" which I might describe as a somewhat specialized climber's knot: http://www.student.virginia.edu/~brmrg/knots/FTL/coil.html After reading your post I got out a rope to see if I could tie that knot after a third of a century. I couldn't --- not until I had five minutes of review to remind me of the details of how to do it.

Hello Kudu, Do you make any special efforts to communicate with ethnically Latino parents whose primary language is Spanish? Do they volunteer as troop leaders as readily as other families? In a Scout Troop, boys are old enough to manage much of their relationship with the troop. In a Cub Pack, I suspect that being in communication with parents and making sure they feel welcome at Cub Scout events is more critical. Personally, I don't see any reason to object if during a recruiting meeting someone provides a greeting and welcome in Spanish and holds up a Spanish language Cub Scout handbook. Doing such things is just a part of helping other people.

Personally I often find BSA training useful. After being appointed Cubmaster a year ago, I took the Cubmaster specific training twice. The Cubmaster training at our major Council training program didn't have much to do with what was in the Cubmaster training syllabus, it was largely what a talented Cubmaster thought new Cubmasters should think about doing. That was reasonably good, and I've used some of the methods he displayed. The second was a by-the-syllabus Cubmaster training conducted by our District training chair. That was more useful if not as mind expanding. Still, I'm not at all happy by the "mandatory" nature of training. It creates difficulties in recruiting needed leaders and more importantly is going to cause leaders to be dishonest in registering volunteers in the years to come. People who hold Scout positions are increasingly going to not be registered for those jobs, and hence will not have background checks done or anything else. While I favor, endorse and support training, I oppose making it mandatory.

So Kudu, What percentage of the boys in your troop come from immigrant primarily Spanish speaking families?

No doubt true, Scoutfish. Plus the reveunues go a goodly way towards financing the town and it's employees.

Another interesting issue to consider: Pregnant Venturer is informed she will be suspended because of her pregnancy. The next week she returns, asking that the suspension be lifted since she is no longer pregnant.