SeattlePioneer

I'm with Dennis99. Parents should be free to attend if they wish. That doesn't apply to grandparents, siblings, friends and neighbors. I can't believe people are getting so wrapped around an axle over having people see the ceremony. If parents want to take the edge off their experience at a possible later date, that's their business. Frankly, it's not that big a deal in my opinion.

My point was that ALL of these, Scouting included, are examples of diversity. Indeed, I found the suggestion that the PTA itself is likely a qualifying organization for purposes of the Federal law assuring BSA of non discriminatory access to schools. If a school has a PTA and allows the PTA to use school facilities to promote membership and policies, BSA is entitled to the same access I suggest. I have one Cub pack in my district which folded recently in part because of the outright hostility of the Principal, teachers and PTA. Perhaps we should go back and make a demand for exactly the same access as is given to the PTA. And there are numerous situations where a child or adult who initiates a prayer in school will have his mouth stopped by teachers or administrators. I would say that there is a definite bias against religion or prayer in public schools even when that is freely initiated by students. And I would further say that keeping public schools a religion free zone is the normative value of public schools. It is what is preferred by teachers and administrators even if children may violate those norms by initiating a prayer on their own from time to time.

Personally I'd count that as one trip.

> This is the key issue in Scoutbox's post, in my opinion. The task of the adult leaders is to deal with the rest of the post, which is about adult issues, so that the Scouts can do what Scout should be able to do.

Personally I wouldn't say anything more about it. You made your point.

> Yep. Hence "diversity."

Hello Eamonn, I didn't say BSA doesn't make mistakes or do wrong. But BSA has some ideas about right and wrong that conflict in some ways with the currently fashionable ideas that government seeks to enforce on people and institutions. That doesn't necessarily make those ideas the right ones either, or the right ones in all situations. Take atheism as an example. Government prevents schools from having a role in religion and prayer. In effect government enforces a religion free zone in schools. Perhaps there is an argument for that in government. But then government is tempted to go the next step and attempt to enforce that bias in every part of public life in the United States. Should government be able to adopt a policy that says that groups using public school facilities must adopt government's values of being religion free? I don't think so. I favor a policy where government must accept that there are a wide variety of cultural viewpoints on religion, and must accept that diversity rather than opposing and restricting it. Same for homosexuality. Government is not entitled to use it's power to restrict the use of government facilities by organizations that may take issue with some aspect of government's political agenda. In Seattle, the city's Civil Rights Department is currently proposing that private landlords be prohibited from discriminating in tenancy by those who have criminal convictions. Should government be able to restrict BSA from discriminating against those with criminal histories as adult leaders? When government gives itself monopolies over things like public schools, it becomes a monopolist and ought to lose it's ability to use its monopoly power to enforce political values in unnecessary and gratuitous ways.

Hello Eamonn, You know it's a diverse world out there. You are probably going to encounter a variety of groups with which you have disagreements on various issues. It's wrong for government to discriminate willie nilly based on such diversity. The Supreme Court and Congress has recognized that using government to discriminate against groups like BSA is wrong, and made it illegal to do so. Can't we all get along?

Hello Scouter, Sounds like yiou have a terrific program, congratulations! I think I'd invite the Committee Chairs of each unit for a meeting to discuss your common problems. Perhaps there is a need for one or more units to do a service project to deal with maintenance or neatness issues, and to develope some common standards for how your Scout Hut will be left after meetings. I presume you have ways of financing the expenses for maintenance, repair and improvement of the Scout Hut. There should be a way to pay for taking the Committee Chairs out for coffee at Starbucks or some other treat to encourage attendance and make them feel special. You might want to schedule such gatherings on a quarterly basis to encourage cooperation and deal with common issues. Just a thought, but it might be nice to have an annual gathering to which all Scout groups would be encouraged to attend to build a sense of comaraderie. Of course as COR the Committee Chairs are dependent on having your support to continue in their positions. But I'm sure you wouldn't have to point that out to them to get their co-operation.

I agree with hadulzo. First year summer camping with his troop is the ticket.

There are special programs... Soccer and Scouting, Scoutreach and such. A way to look for phantom unit would be to use BEASCOUT.ORG for your own home address and look for units that pop up in your area that you know nothing about. You could even e-mail those units for more information and see what happens.

The long-standing relationship between Boy Scouts and public schools is under stress across the St. Louis region, as parent associations are scrutinizing and in some cases even severing ties with the organization. Parent groups in Rockwood, Webster Groves and the Fort Zumwalt districts have tackled the issue, which is as much about concerns over legal liability as it is over the Boy Scouts' convictions about gays and atheists. Last month, the Missouri PTA issued a statement advising all of its 420 member units to cease hosting charters with the Boy Scouts because the agreements put them in legal jeopardy. "We're not telling them, you absolutely can't. We're saying, it's not in your best interest to do that," said Wendy Jackson, the state PTA's president, who stressed that the move was not a criticism of the Scouts but rather a protective business decision. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_9c18d5ea-2557-5733-8262-efc6dc14fd91.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter An article worth reading. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

The Brownsea Program is described in some detail at: http://www.pinetreeweb.com/brownsea.htm Those interested in a troop development plan might find ideas for that in the Brownsea program.

This is a good issue that I've encountered without finding a good method. How 'bout a "flashlight fire"? Each adult and Scout is invited to bring up their flashlight and add it to the "fire"? (As an added bonus you get to find out who was prepared with spare batteries when you are done, and/or you get to watch the campfire "fade away" late in the program!)

Most of the activities I organize have things left over when I'm done with them. Publicity flyers, e-mail announcements, room reservations, leftover program material, thank you notes, sign in sheets, completed applications. Of course that will depend on what your program might be. But if you think about that in advance you can probably design things like that into your program to have them available afterwards. Just as an example, I want to do an effective job of promoting day camp at the April 18th pack meeting for my pack, which doesn't have a history of participating in day camp. I have several e-mails to pack leaders discussing who we want to ask to be the Day Camp Co-ordinator. I sent out an e-mail asking our Order of the Arrow leader to designate that night as an OA activity, and another e-mail to Troop leaders asking them to provide us with 2-3 Boy Scout OA members in their sashes to help promote day camp at the pack meeting. The Day Camp Coordinator will have day camp information packets at the pack meeting, and parents will sign a sheet indicating they are interested in attending day camp. One of those information packets might be one of your metrics. And finally we will have a report on the number of families that actually sign up for and participate in day camp. There should be a pretty good paperwork trail in all that. By the way --- I took Wood Badge in 1985. But as you can see above "working your ticket" never really stops!

Sounds like it's time for a new Scoutmaster! Perhaps you'd be willing to serve as Scoutmaster or perhaps there someone who would make an effective Scoutmaster among the parents. Identifying that new candidate, getting them trained and appointed as an Assistant Scoutmaster would be a good start. Offering an existing Scoutmaster and CC a quality replacement would likely be looked upon with favor. Even an Assistant Scoutmaster could put some starch in the program by sharpening the competition between the Goof-Off Patrol and the Eagle Patrol and emphasizing Scout ideals during the program, notably doing your best. I wouldn't imagine you'd need to have a palace revolution to get a new Scoutmaster if you have a good candidate who is willing to serve. That's not necessarily an easy task, though.

Hello Moosetracker,

Everyone seems to think the co-ed Scouting issue will wait around for BSA to decide the issue. 'Taint necessarily so. What would happen if Girl Scouts announced they were going to begin co-ed Scouting?

EVERY TIME I'm in elementary schools soliciting boys to come to Cub Scout recruiting nights I get MANY pointed questions from girls about why they aren't invited. I always point them towards Girl Scouts, but Girl Scouts doesn't do the recruiting effort I do. So there are LOTs of girls who feel neglected. So far that resentment hasn't resulted in being excluded from school over that issue, but one mom on the war path over "sex discrimination" might do that any time. And a lot of packs have tag along dens of girls and underaged boys who are Cub Scout hangers on. That's lost membership revenue if BSA wanted it. And there are PLENTY of third and fourth grade girls who will practice their flirting skills on me, a big 61 year old galoot! Sheesh --- if half of them studied that hard they would probably be straight A students!

Personally, I'm not hung up about cokking on a camp fire. I'm far more interested in having Scouts become competent cooks. What they cook on isn't especially important. Secondly, as I remember my days at camporee as a Scoutmaster nearly thirty years ago, I seem to remember fewer troops using Dutch Ovens compared to these days. Perhaps others can suggest if their memories suggest a wider use of Dutch Oven now. Personally, I think I'd be glad to swap the increased cooking skills that go along with Dutch Ovens for the fairly obsolete skill of cooking over an open fire. I used to tease Boy Scouts by saying, "Learn to cook or get married!" These days my advice is, "Learn to cook."

> Another interesting thought experiment might be an OA chapter where Native American youth form their own dance team as a vehicle to express their own culture.

Hello Eagle, Thank you for the kind invitation. I've seen OA applications at the Scout office and considered reactiviating my membership. I know the district chapter adviser well and he's done a great job of reactivating our Aquila chapter pretty much as the only adult leader so far as I know. I was taken aback by the expectations for adults to provide services to the chapter. I do a number of pretty valuable activities now and I really can't justify taking on more tasks now, however much I'd like to do so. Right now what I'd like to do is to get the help from our neighboring Scout Troop or OA to help promote our district day camp at out next pack meeting. I'm reviving the pack and there isn't the base of experience with day camp that would ignite the interest of both Cub Scouts and their parents. Getting two or three Boy Scouts who went to day camp to promote that activity would be a big help. I expect I'll ask our Scout Troop before the OA ---- they meet the same night and the Scouts and perhaps their parents could stop by before the Troop meeting to help promote the camp. I suppose if I asked our chapter OA adviser he would be glad to designate that an OA activity for the OA members in the Troop. That would give the Scouts and chapter credit for an OA activity and they could wear their OA sash while promoting day camp. Sorry if this is rambling ---- it's how I often put together program ideas.

Hello Austinole, I will be glad to answer any additional questions about how to make the rockets, launchers or other program ideas, such as making certificates. It's the single best way of attracting new families to a sign up night I've heard of so far.

So what are the Leave No Trace rules for disposing of greasy, grimy gopher guts, mutilated monkey meat and little baby birdie feet?(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello Basement Dweller, > My district combines with two others to put on an outstanding Outdoor Leadership Program for Scoutmasters and Webelos Leaders. Most of the Scout skills presented I was familiar with, but there were a number of things I learned from. In particular, I remember being sort of contemtuous of the "contact method" of chopping wood. I called it "the way lawyers would chop wood!" When I tried it during the IOLS course, I found it pretty effective and considerably safer. So an ol' dog learned a new trick. They also had examples of a powerful candle lit "graduation" ceremony. Wow! I had been overlooking the power of ceremonies for YEARS! I went back and was a patrol guide for two later rounds of this training. This was mostly organized by a crew of old timey Scouters who were real Xperts in what they taught. It was a good example of how the competence of the leaders can make a huge difference in the quality of the program delivered.