SeattlePioneer

I haven't made such a recommendation, and I would have a definite bias against doing that. I'm not an Xpert, and I have negligible knowledge of what goes on in the life of a boy or family other than what I see at Scout activities. So I've always left any such decision up to the parents. There was an occasion where I wrote a letter to parents detailing what had been happening in troop meetings and what I'd been doing about it (time out alone in an equipment room for 10-15 minutes). That was to inform them and give them an opportunity to advise me on what they thought might be appropriate.

Hello Oak Tree, I liked Avid's "pitch" too. As an FOS pitchman, I am given a dozen or more ways I can sell the FOS program, and I choose one I can relate to and present in a convincing manner. If AVID's line were included as an option, I'd probably choose it, at least to give it a try and see how it works. Still, I don't think I'm any great shakes as an FOS presenter. Our DE does an excellent job. Our former council Chief Executive gave his pitch to a FOS training session, and he was AWESOME! In the Cub Scouts, we do our best. Sometimes that's not as good as you'd wish it to be. Personally, I see a lot of hard working staffers at the council office and little waste I'd call reasonably avoidable. I tend to be a sceptic too, but what I've seen at our council has convinced me the money is spent pretty wisely and intelligently. Perhaps that's not true in all councils. And some times people or units have bad experiences with their district or council. Very many of those and you are going to lose your support for anything district or council based. I recall a few years ago a Cub Pack parent made a generous contribution to FOS that earned the family a plaque. It was several months before the DE ordered all the plaques at once, and an additional month or two before I got the plaque to the unit leaders to be awarded. Still later I got complaint from the contributor asking where his promised plaque was. He asked a couple of times. I had to go back to the unit leaders and track down the plaque, and it turns out that the family hadn't attended the Pack Meeting where it would have been awarded, causing further delay. A number of things combined to give a bad experience to someone who deserved the best. In the end we got the plaque awarded. Not long after the person became the Cubmaster in the pack, and has been doing an excellent job for three years or so, becoming more involved attending Roundtables and such. He could as easily have been turned off by the poor performance displayed by the district and I. Instead he was gracious enough to shrug that off once the repeated difficulties were explained an I apologized. It was a big pain in the neck for me that I didn't need wither.

Hello ASM162, Sad. But I can't blame institution leaders for being antsy. I'M Cubmaster for a pack chartered by a parish. At least around here we haven't been burdened with additional restrictions or precautions beyond that required by the BSA and council. Frankly, the idea of going back decades to dig up problems and raid treasuries is abusive, in my opinion. One of the purposes of Statutes of Limitations is to require plaintiffs to deal with issues with reasonable promptness. That puts everyone on notice of problems and allows the PROBLEMS to be CORRECTED. Allowing the problems to go on for decades and then supposing money solves the problem isn't good public policy in my opinion.

Heh, heh! Sink or swim. Deep water is favored as an additional motivator. If someone can do a task when their life depends on it, then you just had a problem with motivation!

Hello Abel, I'm afraid I don't find your examples persuasive. For example: > Your reply doesn't relate to the issue you cite. Your council office/service center no doubt DOES require maintenance, insurance and utilities. Instead you talk about your camp properties. As a District Membership Chair, I have experience with these issues. Most Council professionals, DE and higher, spend a good deal of time on aiding unit to do recruiting. A goodly number in my experience would do no recruiting at all, or not much, without district and council assistance and leadership. My DE spent a good portion of a day earlier this year visiting possible chartered organizations to identify those that might sponsor new units. One was a labor union I've targeted as a possible Chartered Organization but hadn't gort around to visiting myself. Volunteers play a vital role in organizing new units and in recruiting. But professionals usually play a key role too. Without the leadership of professionals the volunteers would often lack the skills and leadership to do the task themselves. Well, fine on the tents. Does the US Navy and other volunteers show up on their own and know what to do, or are there paid staff who aid in organizing such things? What about cooking equipment maintenance, repair and replacement? You mentioned that pool that got filled in and the shower house that was demoed ---- apparently there weren't enough volunteers to save that feature or council dollars either. Your post illustrates why volunteer contributions are vital, but also why paid staff and council dollars are vital as well. I see no indication in your post that volunteers could do the job by themselves or that the council program could be maintained just on fees and volunteers without drastically reducing the program, closing most or all the camps and so on. Frankly, if people don't want to contribute to FOS because they can't afford it or they don't like the council or whatever, I have no objection. My FOS presentation last about ten minutes once a year. I don't consider sitting through that to be an unreasonable hardship.

For those peeved at FOS solicitations, Almost any District Executive would be delighted to have a unit select a unit volunteer to be the FOS chair for the unit. The FOS chair can choose the kind of presentation the unit would like to have, and do it in a way the unit prefers. So--- select your own FOS Chair and do it your way, or leave it up to the DE to do it his way. Which would you prefer?

Hello 83 Eagle, One of the primary jobs of District Executives is usually to assist units with recruiting new members. Our council provides recruiting materials like flyers, posters, yardsigns, stickers, doorhangers and such at no charge to units. Put in a request and flyers and stickers will have the date, time location and other details of unit recruiting nights added to flyers and stickers. In addition, the council staff takes a good deal of responsibility in contacting units --- Cub Packs primarily, to schedule recruiting nights and often the District Executive goes into schools to invite boys to attend recruiting nights. Often the DE attends and conducts the recruiting night, or assists the unit leaders as needed with the recruiting night. If units are strong enough, they do their recruiting activities on their own, but most units benefit from receiving council services to some degree. As one DE explained to me when recruiting me to be District Membership Chair, "You can't have a youth program without YOUTH!"

Hello Tampa, To learn recommended BSA camping methods, there is a program for Boy Scout Troop leaders called IOLS -- Introduction to outdoor leadership skills, and a similar program for Webelos leaders. These let you experience the patrol method and introduce you to various teaching methods and camping skills. Generally it's a very good way to be introduced to Scout camping methods and skills, which can be quite fifferent than family camping. Secondly, there BALOOO training for Cub Scout leaders --- Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation, which teaches basic methods for Cub Scout Pack camping, such as cooking skills, safety, organizing activities and such. These are good introductions to Scout camping skills and methods.

Hello Oak Tree, In my council, I'd guess that 90% of the effort in recruiting new Scouts goes to recruiting new CUB Scouts. Out of twelve districts, three have volunteer Membership Chairs supplementing the efforts of paid professionals in recruiting new Cub Scouts. As one of the most active of those Membership Chairs, I'm still supplementing the efforts of my District Executive. There are a few Cub Scout Packs that could survive at least for a few years doing their own recruiting. But most would be in a death spiral, lacking the skills and commitment to do a task that involves some skill and isn't much fun to do. Last year our Cub Scout Day Camp Director quit a few weeks before daycamp, an there was not much done to make the day camp work. The show did go on, because pretty much every paid staff member at the council was assigned to turn out and MAKE it work. In my view, we are LUCKY, LUCKY, LUCKY to be able to afford the paid staff we have. I'm all in favor of volunteers, but there just aren't enough of us and most are naturally attracted to program rather than the hard nitty gritty of things like recruiting. Fund raising is a fact of life. But it can be done well or poorly, and sometimes it is done poorly. I shake my tin cup as a solicitor for Friends of Scouting. Perhaps some of those who object to poor solicitation presentations should do the same --- you may be able to do a better job, which would be all to the good. Two Cub Dad, At least in our council, families applying for Cub Scout Day Camp and Boy Scout Camp can apply for camperships, which come out of the council's revenue from the camps. Of course the council gets some money from Cub Scout Day Camp too. They are pretty generous in approving grants for half the day camp fees to most of the people who apply. Do I think Cub Scouts gets a fair return on Friends of Scouting dollars? Yes. Do Boy Scouts get more ----yes.

While you describe your SM as dithering, he's acted pretty decisively to get what he wants while you and the other parents appear to be the ones who have been dithering. YOU are the likely prospect to be the new Scoutmaster. The way you descibe yourself, you are the BEST person willing to serve as Scoutmaster. Based on that supposition, I'd go ahead and fill out the adult leader application for that position and complete the YPT training and other on line training needed to be a TRAINED Scoutmaster. Then I'd make an appointment with the COR about your interest in being Scoutmaster and ask him to sign your application. If he does so, you are the new Scoutmaster once the application gets turned in and the fees paid. If he doesn't want to sign, I'd invite him to the next Committee meeting and the parents and committee members can weigh in with whom they would prefer to have as Scoutmaster. As Committee Chair, you could give yourself and the current Scoutmaster each 5 minutes to sum up why they would be the best person for the job. Parents and Committee members could express their preferences. In the end, the COR either signs your application for Scoutmaster or he doesn't. I'd keep that meeting positive. Thank the Scoutmaster for his contribution in getting the Troop going again. You have some plans for the Troop that other parents find appealing. If parents are willing to speak up to support you, nothing negative needs to be said. Similarly, your wife could offer to be Committee Chair to support the new plans the Scoutmaster wants to carry out. She should have the Adult Leader Application filled out and have taken the on line Committee Chair training ---I presume she already has the YPT card. You DON'T want the compromise of having the previous Scoutmaster as the Committee Chair! You should arrange to have parents and committee members pointedly support your wife for Committee Chair. If you can work with him, you might want to ask the previous Scoutmaster to be an ASM for you to carry out some of his pet ideas and projects. Have some care for his feelings as well. This again illustrates why it can be a bad idea to ask people to volunteer for Scout positions. The wrong person can volunteer and cause a lot of trouble. The smart practice is to choose the BEST person to fill a position and to ask them to do the job. If they wont, ask the next best person.

Well BadenP, Your comments illustrate that people can be cynical about anything. As noted in the material: So it's a national program aimed at supporting councils most directly. Getting more adults involved would no doubt help national, councils, districts and units. It might help everyone in Scouting. But you are certainly entitled to your skepticism if that appeals to you. As I noted earlier, the only reason I got involved in Scouting thirty years ago is that I was encouraged to participate by a friend of mine, not much different than the way this program suggests in a more direct fashion.

I like your pitch, AvidSM!

Hmmph! You all call yourself Scouters but NO ONE has reported that their first car bwas a Pinewood Derby car! I'm planning to make up Pinewood Derby Driver's Licenses/Certificates today for our pack PWD on Saturday.

I second Beavah's suggestions. Most Catholic Dioces have a Scouting Committee working on Catholic Scouting issues. This would be a good issues to raise with them, they've probably already thought about it and been dealing with it. I'm Cubmaster for a pack chartered by a parish. This requirement hasn't been imposed on Scout units ---not yet anyway. I completed the archdioces background check a three years or so ago when I was doing recruiting in parish schools for Cub Scout Packs, but that involved no fees or fingerprinting at that time. So --- ask. Perhaps the diocese committee will be able to persude the diocese to accept the Scouting YPT and background checks, o0r work out some other accomodation. I googled "Seattle Archdioces Scouting" and came up with the Scouting Committee, or you could probably call your diocese and get contact information. I attended one of the Archdiocese Scouting Committee meetings a year or so ago. It was worth the time and I'm planning to attend their May 1st meeting. The defacto leader is a retired Army Colonel who is a Deacon and who is a charismatic leader ---a very impressive guy. We have worked together on a couple of issues. Just as a reference, their website: http://seattleaccs.org/

Hello 83Eagle, So, how did the fundraising go with the new "message"? If you have your own FOS coordinator next year you can control the message that is presented. Personally, I'd e-mail your DD either with your post hear or with your objections to the methods used. You are doing the DD a favor by telling him how the presentation was received. My reaction --- a half hour presentation is 'way too long. No harm in a little light guilt tripping, but I wouldn't make that the main theme. And the Cub Scout mottor is "Do Your Best." That should be the basic FOS theme in my opinion.

Hello ch33, Personally, I was a Cub Scout dropout after only a couple of months as a member. I remember den meetings circa 1958 with a Den Mother presenting cutesey craft projects to which I couldn't relate, and pack meetings with 200+ Cub Scouts sitting in rank after rank of dens in a school lunchroom at night. Not my bag. But it has caused me to want active den meetings as a Cub Scout leader that would keep active boys engaged and interested. Personally I think the Eagle rank is overrated, and the First Class rank is the most important. A Scout who has honestly earned the First Class rank has had a chance to learn the most important lesson of Scouting. After that it's more practice for the rest of your life. Congratulations on your many successes as a Cub Scout, Boy Scout and Scouter!

Hello BadenP, One of the national goals has been to significantly increase the number of Scout volunteers. I'm supposing this Scouting alumni program is a part of that kind of goal. Perhaps I'm missing something, but my impression is that people are encouraged to contribute to their council. That's supporting youth as far as I'm concerned. And I see no requirement that three contributions be received, only that people be asked. No harm in that. Reading over this program made me aware that I should be making more of a point to ask more people to support Scouting. I make the pitch as a district volunteer at Troop and Pack FOS presentations, but I hadn't thought about asking for contributions outside of that contect. Frankly, I think the business card method is a good one that might encourage more people to get involved in Scouting and make contributions. That would be a good thing, and I see this program as a positive idea. How well it works in practice is the real issue in my opinion. You are certainly welcome to your negative view of this program. I consider it an innovative way to bring in more adult volunteers and money.

> Heh, heh! No reason we couldn't have OFFICIAL uniform police. A district might appoint a Uniform Police Chief who would hire uniform police deputies who would be issued a badge ----and a nightstick to insure compliance!

> One of the critical issues for every Cub Pack is to get a new Tiger Cub Den started off on the right foot every year. What you might want to consider are methods that will help achieve that goal, but not to substitute yourself for the leadership new parents need to come up with themselves. After that, helping out the Webelos Den, especially to insure that there is a reasonable camping program in place, might be my second priority. If you have contacts in the Scout troops you can help identify camping trips the troop is doing that would be suitable for the Webelos Den to participate in. The shift to a den based camping program is the major challenge for the Webelos program, in my opinion. Helping the WDL accomplish that would probably be valuable.

Hello BadenP, Sorry, I disagree, and I think you have to exagerate to turn this into something bad. Raising money for charities is one of the most common things that charities do. It's an entirely legitimate thing for charitable organizations to do. Is this legitimate function being carried out in an illegitimate way in this instance? I don't think so. It's being done in an entirely up front way. People who want to participate in the program to help Scouting are encouraged to do so. If they don't do so, nothing forces them to do so. As to being a "pyramid scheme," I seem nothing of the sort. A person who makes a contribution has no obligation to participate in the Scouting alumni program, and I imagine that few would. The "upline" donor isn't going to rake in any percentage of the contributions. Calling it a payramid scheme is entirely bogus, in my opinion. Scouting alumni are simply being encouraged to ask friends, neighbors an relatives to consider making a gift to support Scouting. I don't even see a requirement that people solicited actaully make contributions, only that they be asked. I see no reasonable basis for objections. Indeed, it's a good idea ----how well it works in practice would be the real issue.

Raising money is a fact of life. I don't see the requirement as being unreasonable or burdensome. You don't even have to actually persuade anyone to donate, just ask. I was recruited to be an Assistant Scoutmaster for a troop by a friend of mine who had a boy in a troop. As a result of his interest in me and the Scout program, I've contributed many thousands of hours to Scouting. Was it wrong for him to ask? I kind of like the business card approach. It lends itself to informally addressing groups of people you are in and inviting their interest in becoming adult leaders. No doubt the large majority will just throw the card out --- but a few may be glad to have an invitation to participate. If you talk to your friends and acquaintances about the good experiences they had in Scouting, a few may be interested in making a FOS contribuition to carry on that program. I see this as a low key way to invite more people to consider supporting Scouting with their time and/or money. I expect there are millions of people out there who would be glad to do that if they were asked.

Hello Shortride, Taxes are property taken by force or the threat of force. But it is force used in a legal and legitimate way, too. You might call taxes a legalized form of theft, but you should really recognize that it is both legal and property taken by force or the threat of force. It is neither a good idea to ignore the fact that it is something done by force nor that it is a legal and legitimate function of government. In my view, those who love taxes and would like to see more and higher taxes should recognize that they should exersize a degree of restraint in taking the property of people. Those who despise taxes need to recognize that taxes are necessary and should recognize that the power to tax is both legal and legitimate. Both sides should exercise some restraint and have a degree of respect for those they disagree with. Personally I think those who are dipping into someone's pocket should have a degree of respect for the person whose property they are taking, and treat that person with as much respect and courtesy as possible in the process of shaking him down and emptying his pockets.

> Heh, heh! I just KNOW I'll be raising that issue just to stir the pot! Good discussion here of the variety of ways troops handle this issue. I'm surprised to find a second instance of a Scoutmaster who couldn't manage to plan a COH for his son. I thought that would be pretty unique, but noooooo!

> For the right boy who has a history with his church and wants to share his accomplishment with that community, I think that's a great idea. I also like the idea of having a wedding as part of a regular Sunday church service for the same reason. It shares the beginning of a new family's life with the life of the "eternal" parish community. Puts everything in perspective. (probably economical, too!) Unfortunately, that's rare, for all the wrong reasons in my view. Out of curiosity, did you choose to have the Eagle awarded at this church service, and if so why? It strikes me that that would be a pretty mature decision for a young man to choose his church over a troop meeting among his buddies for that award. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Here's another issue with the expectation of a fancy ECOH event: At the last Troop I was registered in, the Scoutmaster frankly couldn't organize his way out of a paper bag. His son was a very capable SPL. He earned his Eagle. At that point, I pushed to schedule his COH in committee meetings. His parents demurred, saying that they needed to arrange to have the grandparents present. I kept pushing in subsequent months and they kept refusing to schedule their own son's Eagle Scout award. It's been five years now --- still no Court of Honor award for this boy, now a man. I e-mailed him a few months ago offering to award him his Eagle at our monthly district meeting of officers or Boy Scout Roundtable --- no answer from him. (The troop folded a while after that) Sad. Simplicity is better than no COH at all! (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)