SeattlePioneer

(I have edited this to maintain anonymity for the original poster at their request - packsaddle) Congratulations on trying to do the rtight things by paying attention to the money and property of the Pack! 'Way too many units don't take sufficient care about pack finances ---especially controls over cash. Sometimes that can bite units, and it offers temptations to weak people that wouldn't be there if sufficient controls were in place. So I applaude your interest and concern. I would go into the meeting with a problem solving attitude --- maybe they are going to pin a medal on you for your care and concern? Your requests are reasonable. I'd like to know what there objections to helping you might be? The only one with a degree of reasonable ness is that it can be a nuisance to account for stuff. That's an argument for trying to reduce the burden though, not for failing to account for things. You might want to purchase a three part receipt book. When purchases are made (cash especially) a receipt is completed. One copy goes to the person making the purchase, a second to the treasurer with the payment and the third stays in the book. I also prefer to expend pack funds by making as many small expenses "free" to avoid collecting small amounts of cash. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Personally I consider such deliberately provocative behavior to be objectionable as well. But I doubt you could produce any evidence that the man's behavior is pathological. Most of the world's religions consider homsexuality to be abhorrent. So yes, you are doing the same thing he is by using provocative hate language in turn. But heck --- I'd give you a pass in his case if you decided to avoid using the term except when confronted with provocation on that scale. A little tit-for-tat hate isn't inappropriate. It's the casual use of "homophobe" to describe anyone who objects to some element of the homosexual political and social agenda that I find most objectionable.

So Shortridge, Are water balloons "simulated firearms" (hand grenades)? I'm jesting of course. I hope.

Interesting posts by both Baden P and Eagle 92. In 1975 I had no outdoor experience to speak of. That year I took a class in backpacking which gave me a good introduction to basic outdoor and backpacking skills. It was probably six or so evening sessions and three or four day trips. That and a few thousand miles of backpacking honed those skills pretty well. In 1976 I took the Seattle Mountaineers Basic Climbing course that assumed good outdoor skills and aimed at basic training in rock, glacier and ice climbing. That was again six or eight evening classes, four or five weekend day trips to practice skills (such as being lowered on a rope thirty feet or so into a crevasse and doing a self recue to get out) A total of a half dozen rock, ice or glacier climbs was required to graduate. Completion of the Red Cross Mountaineering Oriented First Aid Class was also required. That involved five or six evening sessions and an outdoor practical session at night (preferably in the rain) simulating response to multiple injuries in an outdoor setting. In 1977 I took the Seattle Mountaineer Intermediate Climbing course ---- more of the same. I also took similar classes in snowshoeing and nordic skiing. All of these also involved a good deal of practical experience with the skill. That's what I brought to Scouting in 1981. Is Scout Outdoor Leadership Training for adults adequate to build a base to lead outdoor trips? Certainly not by itself. It's a start. But Scout Troops shouldn't really be looking for someone with no outdoor experience to be a Scoutmaster and expect BSA to train them up in everything they need to know. You probably need to find someone who has a good history of training and experience to lead ambitious trips, and a good history of camping and such to lead car camping type trips. I will be interested to see if the Vets of the Iraq and Afghan war have that kind of depth of experience that Scouting will benefit from. Anyone have those Vets in their Troop? I think Eagle 92 makes the point that the nature of Scout skills continues to change. "Scout skills" as I understand them are the kind an infantry soldier needs to know to manage in an outdoor environment. That changes with time and technology --- those skills were one thing for the Green Mountain boys during the American Revolution, different for Baden Powell in Africa, different again for WWII Vets and different again for Afghan War Vets. I see nothing wrong with Scouting adapting to such changes. Trying to put a nail in "Scout skills" and say this is what they are for once and always ---- that would be dumb. Going back and revisiting Scout skills as experienced in different ages might be a fun experience ----- I instruct Cub Scouts how to make a bedroll so they don't need a sleeping bag, for example. I use a bedroll on Cub Scout camping trips to set an example and give boys who do the same recognition for trying something different. My main aim is to reduce barriers to camping, but it can be a small adventure as well as a bonus. But if boys want to use sleeping bags, that's certainly fine with me.

It's very common for people who have pricipled opposition to particular social, political or economic policies to be passionately and yes, "vicerally" opposed. That goes for liberal and conservative. It's just a fact of life. My suggestion woiuld be to deal with the issue rather than to characterize the person making the argument. Just to take one example, a person may be passionately opposed to a right to burn a US flag, or passionately in favor of the right to do so. The degree of passion isn't especially relevent to the issue in either case.

Interesting observations there, Two Cub. My DE is the Camp Director for one of our two Council Boy Scout Camps. I'll have to ask him if he gets units pushing him for things like that. Of course Scout Camps are probably the leaders and pioneers of pencil whipping a merit badge! But Scout camps can be flexible. If we call patrol centered troops the opposite of the Eagle mills, what would patrol centered troops like to see at summer camp to promote and support patrol centered programs? You've provided an interesting list of things we'll say are favored by Eagle mill troops, what kinds of things should patrol centered troop be looking for and asking for? Districts needn't organize or promote Merit Badge Universities if they don't want to. My district has done one in October for several years. I think I heard suggestions for another this spring when I wasn't paying attention at our district meeting this month. Perhaps I should have been paying attention. There are lots of things districts could do if they chose, from reducing the number of merit badges offered to insiting on higher standards for the Merit Badge to be approved. My district might decide to stick with one MBU and not do two, pouring limited resources into our strengthening our Camporee instead, for example. And while you lament the competition of the Eagle Mill troops --- imagine how they feel about the patrol centered troops: " Gad, that troop goes camping EVERY MONTH and the Scouts don't have to sit through Merit Badge Classes after school! How can we compete?"!(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Sorry Trevorum, I find it very common for liberals to be very sensitive to the language other people use which might grate on the political interest groups with which they are associated. It is equally common for the same people to care not a fig about the hate language they use to pillory the political groups they don't like. That sums up the attitudes you describe in your last post perfectly. "Homophobe" is pseudo scientific hate language commonly used to imply that any person who disagrees with some element of the homosexual political and social agenda is sick with hate and fear. It's a vile word that I'd compare to the "N" word or a term invented to drip hate on a group, such as Rush Limbaugh's use of "Feminazi." So it's not a matter for toughening up to ignore use of a vile and hateful term. Rather the usage of this word, so commonly used by liberals these days, needs to be challenged at every turn. You need to reconsider your use of this word. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I know National has ambitious goals for increasing the numbers of new adult leaders. Does anyone know how this award fits into that goal? Will "Alumni" be considered to be adult leaders in the future? I'm all in favor of increasing the number of adult leaders, but not if you do that by counting people who aren't actually doing things.

Hello Sherminator, > That's an interesting analysis. But I suggest that only really happens if the Troop and Scoutmaster permit it to happen. Nearly 30 years ago when I was Scoutmaster, the main focus was on First Class, the Patrol Method and camping. Circa 2004-2006 I was AS with a troop that operated pretty much the same way. There was a PARENT who carried his boy into Eagle, but that wasn't really the doing of the troop. I don't doubt that there are troops and Scoutmasters who have analyzed the methods of getting Eagle with a minimum of wasted effort and motion. But troops and Scoutmaster don't need to do that. You can run your program along more fundamental lines if you and your committee wish to do so. This leaves us with a diversity of Scouting programs. The eagle mills don't impose their methods on the patrol method troops and vice versa. I'm reasonably satisfied with that. Could be worse...

Does anyone know how this number is figured? Not the 1, that I have already figure out....

I still don't know if "unauthorized" means a flat prohibition or simply guidance that discourages such an activity.

Hello Eagle 92, Thank you for taking the time to post the relevant portion of the Guide to Safe Scouting. I was just adding my own disappointment with this issue. I didn't interpret your post as supporting it, just informing readers of the policy. The motivation for this policy appears to be the idea that it's bad for children to point things at a person that the child might imagine was a firearm. I have no objection to such a rule that involves actual firearms. It's not clear to me if this is an actual prohibition on such activities, or merely guidance a unit leader may choose to disregard if they choose. Perhaps someone can help me with that...

You don't have to remember to make a FOS contribution since someone will send you a solicitation automatically?

Hello Hawkrod and Old Grey Eagle, Interesting comments. Where DOES leadership training come in in Boy Scouts? I'd have to say it resides most clearly in the method of patrol leadership, offhand. I guess I'd have to disagree with the idea that leadership training shouldn't be a part of Boy Scouts. Perhaps that should have a more prominent and explicit place in the purposes of Boy Scouts. Maybe it is too easy to get Eagle once parents have analyzed the program and come up with the most efficient methods for hurrying a boy to jump through the various hoops. As I've mentioned, when I was Scoutmaster I didn't participate in that process very much, and the troop as such didn't participate in that process. Some parents did, but they did that on their own initiative and the troop wasn't dogging the steps of Scouts to encourage them to advance beyond First Class. If other troops want to do things differently ---- fine. Personally, I'm comfortable with that kind of diversity among troops in Boy Scouts.

Hello Eagle92, Call me Kudu, but I find that excessive, unreasonable and sad.

> Strictly speaking, I'm only UC for one unit and that since 2004. I think being a UC for a single unit is a great idea if that's what you want to do. And frankly, how can even a pushy District Commissioner MAKE you do more? Doing a fine job with one unit is a great contrbution, in my opinion.

> So Trevorum, would you use the word "homophobe" to describe someone, or would you consider that an impolite word to use?

My bias is that First Class is the most important Scouting rank. So Having a knot for that for Scouters might be worth considering. I suppose that means you'd need knots for Star and Life as well.

> Ummm... I wouldn't compare not getting Eagle to walking off a cliff. Generally speak, after first class I was glad to encourage boys to continue advancement, but I didn't goose 'em or nag 'em. I did give help to Scouts (and parents) who needed to navigate the thicket to get Eagle projects approved and completing the various letters and other requirements of getting Eagle approved. Frankly, the idea that you need to chart and remind Scouts about Eagle requirements seems distinctly odd to me. That does strike me as butt powdering! Our usual boy led troop standard seems to be breaking down on this thread!

I have a Ka-Bar knife stamped USMC I got at a Scout White Elephant gift exchange a couple of years ago. It does a terrific job of holding an edge if you have the patience it takes to put the edge on in the first place. My daily use for this knife is splitting kindling for firing up my woos stove. Put the knife blade on a suitable piece of wood and pound on the clipped back part of the blade to split the wood. Far better than using an axe or hatchet. The other use I have for it is explaining knife safety to Cub Scouts. I explain the history of the Ka-Bar knife as a Bowie knife and combat knife in WWII and later --- they eat that up. The personal knife I carry on a keychain is a Swiss Army knife with a modest number of gadgets.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

> Personally, when e-mailing a Scout I always made a parent an addressee as well. That kept the parent in the loop of what was going on. The parent was informed but wasn't expected to take responsibility for what the Scout might need to do.

I'm with shortridge and Eagle 92 ---- the idea of calling the Eagle project a contract seems a stretch and exageration. I'm sympathetic to Oldscout's grievances. The Scout (not the adult) needs to be the one dealing with the non profit and working out any issues. I see no evidence that OldScout is being at all unreasonable. Unless there has been a clear agreement that the benefitting organization will supply materials, it would be wrong to feel they must or ought to be supplied. Funding the project is properly the concern of the Scout. If OldScout doesn't have a copy of the work book, he should require that a copy be given to him so he can see what the Scout is expected to do. Keep in mind that if an organization has a bad experience with an Eagle project, no other Scout in the future in likely to have a similar opportunity. Keeping the "customer" happy is properly one of the skills involved in completing an Eagle project in my opinion, and the Scout in this one seems to be failing in that task so far. If the Scout can't manage that, I wouldn't blame Oldscout for terminating the project.

I had a Scout who was right up magainst his 18th birthday without having planned his Eagle project. He had been SPL for his entire tenure as a Life Scout. He made an application to get an extension on the customery 18th birthday deadline, and I wrote him a letter truthfully suggesting that he had made a decision to spend his time being an excellent SPL rather than work on his Eagle. That got him a three month extension which allowed him to complete his award. I understand that extensions are pretty rare, though.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

My pack has been growing a den each year as the Scouts advance in grade level. This June our Bear Cubs will be Webelos. That presents the opportunity of recruiting from K-4th grade this spring (plus helping a neighboring troop recruit) In past years, boys we weren't recruiting from were unhappy that we didn't have a program for them to join. At present we have a good sized Bear Den of 8 or so boys with an excellent Den Leader. I haven't been able to sit down with the DL to see what he would like to do next year. I just had an inquiry from the parent of a 5th grader who wants to join the pack in May when we do our recruiting night. I'm not quite sure what the best way to proceed might be --- start a second year Webelos Den with boys and parents altogether new to Cub Scouts? Start a second Webelos den of mixed 1st and 2nd year Webelos? Hope or ask the current DL to manage a single den of mixed 1st and 2nd year Webelos? Opinions are solicited....

> Hmmmm. I guess I was a slack Scoutmaster. It didn't occur to me to make an issue of that. Would you allow a Tenderfoot to get a card so he could start counting up those 15 nights? If a Scout could document his nights of camping (and we encouraged notes in his handbook) he was good to go. Another example of the variety of Scouting you can find I suppose. And I'm not suggesting you were "wrong" or I was "right." Frankly your interpretation, which is reasonable, never occurred to me. I suspect that I simply bought into the existing practice in that troop without thinking about it. Thirty years ago this fall--- details fade!