qwazse

I would definitely do the test on flatwater. Pool vs. lake is irrelevant. You want him to be able to swim "in a strong manner" in a controlled condition. Needless to say, if you're planning some instruction on whitewater you should expect that manner to be "very strong." If the boy did his test in the past year, and you trust the person who tested him, by all means accept the requirement. This does not sound like your case. It sounds like you saw the kid's swim and thought, "This is not going to cut it during a full day of drills." I have seen a 14 year old grow so fatigued he could no longer get back in his flipped canoe during open swim in calm conditions. It didn't ruin his our anyone else's day, but if he was in your class you all would have had to interrupt the flow of everything to make sure he returned to shore safely. Then he would have had to determine if it was just a fluke (not enough for breakfast, whatever) then come back and make up for lost time. Just explain to the boy that when you teach him, you want him to be at his best so he can get the most out of his instruction. Life lesson learned.

K, How much of your permission slip info (location, dates of trip, etc ...) was completed by the PLC? Or did you do it in their presence? Or did you do make up the slip on your own after they settled on the calendar and a rough plan? I'm still trying to figure out the right balance between having youth complete tour plans, make announcements, etc ... Ideally a crew VP admin or VP program would do this, but with my 18 y.o. venturers going off to college or war as soon as they become proficient with paperwork, my VP's are more equivalent to SPL's. So, I figure how you and other SM's would involve their SPL in the process would parallel how I should be involving crew VPs.

For that size group a little redundancy is a good idea. I would suggest at least 3 systems. One of them being your steri-pen. Fact is., even on a weekend a group could fall back on using tablets. Pens may break or run out of batteries, filters can clog. You might all be counting on tablets by the end of a week! I think limiting the use of your filter is a good idea. As long as the boys are staying hydrated, let them use tablets as planned.

Keep the tutu put of the pool. And this is probably where applying the patrol method may come in handy. If a boy knows that it's just his seven buddies and the qualified supervision cheering him on, it might take the edge off.

1. Be very grateful for every driver. 2. Have reimbursement plan for fuel for someone who is above average in expense (e.g., pulls the trailer). 3. Make sure every driver knows that fuel expense can be considered a charitable contribution for tax purposes. 4. Have the boys factor in fuel costs for long trips or if you just want to have a reimbursement policy for every trip. Don't worry over the fella who hasn't driven.

The other side of this issue is the leaders. While one just commented that a Scoutmaster may have a calling, and many, if not most do, I can tell you that many if not most ASM's do not share the same enthusiasm or calling (from what I've seen). Yep, our troop lost a bunch of those guys, and we're better for it. (And I say that with a world of respect for them as they went and started their own troop with its own set of problems.) Part of being an ASM is making sure the SM doesn't bend too far for a kid. I've offered to ride a bad kid home when push was coming to shove. Would've ruined my weekend, but all options needed to be available to the guy so he could make an effective decision. SP if this kid is as insistently thuggish as you think he is, TT's troop may have to be a revolving door for a while, with repeated suspensions until the kid shapes up or ships out. Only he knows if the SM is up for the challenge of keeping the kid around. The timbre of the SPL at the time makes a huge difference. This year our SPLs are kinda weak, so I think a bad kid would be more likely to see himself shipped home. But, you never know until the situation is in front of you.

If money's tight. Make sure the pack committee has nailed down priorities. A free official PWD kit for every boy may be more important than a uniform for every DL or fancy placemats at the B&G. Then make sure fundraising gets spent on priority stuff first. If fundraising goals are exceeded, then maybe the Pack can buy a few shirts for their uniform library. Or maybe they would rather stock up on B&G centerpieces! The pack needs someone committed to browsing those thrift stores and keeping a neat closet.

Is that our job? Really? To spend our incredibly limited time focused on a kid that in all likelihood doesn't want to be in Scouting in the first place, and letting those who really are into the Scouting program slip away? On one level, each SM has his calling. And his particular gifts and talents might help him handle a wide range of kids. (E.g., make the "drop offs" feel welcome and needed, inspire fresh attitudes, etc ...). On another, the toxic scout is a kid who wants to be there. (If a sociopath can really want things.) It's a great venue for him to play head games with a bunch of vulnerable youth and presumably soft adults. It's his little power-trip. Helping the first one succeed and the second one surrender is the trick, I guess. That way everyone in the middle winds up with a wholesome environment and maybe learns a thing or two about human nature in the process.

So is there any turning around the toxic scouts????? I really hate discarding one boy especially one that could really benefit from scouting Remember mine is a unit where SM and I want a sign that says "Troop ___, we take bad kids." Yes a boy can turn around. But two things need to happen: 1. You need to get through to him that his behavior is foul. Not just bad like the kid with conduct disorder who is having an awful time controlling his temper and is just beginning to be able to handle overnights without a parent around, or bad like the kid who hasn't figured out that the practical jokes have to stop, or bad like the kid who is girl crazy and can't shut up about the one female staff at summer camp two years ago, or even bad like the kid who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and needs a cultural "paradigm shift." He has to catch on that his behavior doesn't make adults angry so much as it makes them want to vomit. 2. He needs to discover that there is pleasure, true joy - if you will, in building other people up. He needs to desire fellowship and acceptance for his positive actions to the point that he wants to seek fellowship and accept other people's hard work. It's sort of the "camel through the eye of a needle" experience. A toxic kid is rich in smarts and verbal skills. He has to develop enough faith set those aside and rely on building other people up instead of tearing them down. You can do something about #1 via discipline, suspension, etc... You can tell a kid about #2, but he's probably so full of himself that he'll not believe you until he decides to take that journey on his own. (This message has been edited by qwazse)

I would avoid Qwasze's approach altogether. An argument with you is exactly what he will want. Skip's point is correct -- partly. The quips I'm suggesting are not merely for the sake of argument. They are to call the boy out and enable the other boys to rightly think about themselves when they are subjected to harshness (from this boy or any other toxic peer). If it's not gonna work for you, then don't use it! Better to throw a yellow flag down and call, "Unsportsmanlike, offense, #87, 15 yards, loss of down." Certainly, the boy doesn't deserved to be rewarded with a steamed adult who gets rankled by the little cherubs every deceit. However you all choose to act, do so in a matter-of-course fashion.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

Where do people get all of these hypothetical scouts? Can I trade a real one who said that to me for yours? Support the kid. Understand if his interests are elsewhere. Let him know you think he's missing out. Warn him that "just skating by" is not a healthy life strategy.

In addition to all of the above, do your best to undermine his premises. e.g. ... "Retarded people can do many things. They belong and are very welcome in our troop. And, Tim is 1st Class because he has done everything necessary to take his patrol hiking and camping. Your flawed assessment about why someone would be held back a grade is an indication that you are little more than a brutish thug. I'd work on reforming that if I were you." "I just saw Fred do __ right. Therefore your statement is flawed. We must then conclude that everyone likes Fred. We conclude therefore that he must remain in his patrol and troop. May your brother scouts one day conclude the same for you." "How many grubmasters have you known? Could your please write them down an a piece of paper so I can compare your list with mine? If he is such a terrible grubmaster, may as punishment you should require him to enjoy his meals in peace the entire weekend." "Your assumptions of what would cause a shelled reptile's heart to fibrilate are flawed. I would also suggest you consider that other assumptions you may have about, say, the strength of his snap, may be flawed. This makes your continued course of action detrimental to your career as a scout." This is not just an SM's responsibility. There are some ASM's who are particularly effective with certain scouts. If you've got one use him.

2cson, welcome to the forums. Looks like your three patrols are working off of one stove because of your hard-nosed SM. You all will have to rely on the good graces of patrol#5. (By the way, I hope you are using #s for a convenience. dens have #s, patrols have names.) Otherwise, read up on campfire cooking. Your real problem is that you have scouts who aren't yet brave enough to own up to their mistakes. The only way through this is to endure a little hardship as a troop. Hopefully in this process the neglectful boys will come forward, you'll find it in your heart to forgive them, shelter them from SM's wrath, and move forward. It doesn't hurt to figure out how to make SM a decent cup of coffee in the morning. That would give him a reson to open up at least one burner for you!

Choco Taco deprivation. That's a new one to me. Cruel would be lining up all the boys who did not go on the orienteering weekend, stripping them of their troop numbers, and saying "we'll give it back to you when you participate in the next troop activity!"

Teaching the boys embroidery is not that far fetched. If they came up with the design, they could mass produce it with the help of a parent with those skills.

Outdoors makes it tough. Even my venturers loose focus. There's a reason why schools have walls. Hang in there. Work on some of the low-key stuff. You may need to have a word with the parents. And like Eng describes, with some groups you'll need to read the riot act. (I.e., get in touch with your inner "bad cop".)

I always encourage competent young men to go camping with their buddies without auld supervision. I apologize that the BSA moniker can no follow them Same applies to 18-20 year old co-eds. If they want to backpack on a long weekend, I'll help them make a plan.

Some thoughts ... In some cultures, inflammatory speech is proof that the speaker's argument is invalid. I get the "real estate" problem of shirts. I think if the problem were posed to me, I would suggest something special epaulets with a white stripe with and red arrow. (An epaulet sash, if you will, I envision endless discussions on which way to point the arrows!) The wearer could simply flip it to the all red (or blue, or green) side when he's not transacting OA business. But, you have pocket-rockets, a lodge flap, a sash. Using them judiciously should get you pretty far. Are there any stats on OA membership trends?

a40, Gotta agree with the other 85% in your training class. Not the SM's responsibility to be on every outing. It is his responsibility to review the boys' tour plan and make sure they've identified trustworthy adult tour leaders. (With proper training, etc ...). Getting ASM's comfortable with being the "go-to guy" is a step along the way to grooming future SM's and Advisors. That said, I know very few SM's who wont plan to be on every monthly campout with their boys. A troop with more frequent events than that, then delegation begins. Which reminds me, maybe the hardest position to fill: Unit Leader's Spouse.

Oh, I forgot to mention the other thing. I carve rubber stamps. It's very easy to do in "down time". Learned about it here: http://www.mitchklink.com/letterboxing/carving.htm I keep a piece of soft carving block, a pencil, paper, and an exact-o knife handy for whenever I think a youth might want one. (Oh, and a stamp-pad for testing!)

He's probably too young to gain a dislike for plaques. I remember when I was a little older than Tiger, I got "honor camper" at church camp. It meant a lot. If you have a spare pinewood derby or regatta kit, you could decorate it for him.

"Though the Boy Scouts have a marksmanship program, Girl Scouts have no such program." Kudo's to those girls for thinking outside the box about what they want! That's the one thing I've always admired about the really active GS troops, they seem to crank out youth with strong organizational skills. Durn those Philmont boys for being so kind to sectarians. Wonder what lambasting BP has in store for me when he finds out that I encourage Christian girls (never too sure about the nice part) to obtain firearms skills.

It's amazing the kind of nerves you'll touch when you just reach out! Whenever you read a negative in guide, remember that it got there because someone somewhere saw something, asked for a ruling, and got it! I'd like to think that for the sash issue, the main concern was that the on-the-belt fashion would cause the insignia to be hidden when it could be displayed more prominently. I'd like to hope that those folks were not feeling that the style was being disrespectful to the organization. In any case, how *you* decide to spin these things to the boys is very important. You shouldn't just parrot the rule and don't give any notion of why it makes sense to you. Neither should you say "that's what the guide said, but, you know, rules are meant to be broken." Rules should make sense, and in this case "increasing visibility of our arrowmen" makes more sense than saying "we don't want to be disrespectful." But, you gotta respect the fact that boys who were selected to this order wouldn't be the type who simply choose a non-compliant style of uniforming unless there was some sense in doing so. But, that does beg the question of when lodge members should be visible and when they should "blend in." (Or rather, only be visible via cheerful disposition and servant leadership.) Also, it begs the question of what can you do to make the lodge flap catch the eye when a boy isn't sporting a sash?

Ther's always gonna be a little back-and-forth, but it sounds like your boys are on the right track. As the boys advance and committee gets to hear from them in boards of review and such, the adults'll catch on.

Female backpacking/wilderness consultant. More the big sister type with a few open weekends than worn out mom pulling two shifts to pay college tuition! No agism on my part. There are some retirees who could fill that big sister role. Fewer of them would clear the physical demands for wilderness activities, but some of their wisdom is just what my youth (male and female) would need.