qwazse

So is there any turning around the toxic scouts????? I really hate discarding one boy especially one that could really benefit from scouting Remember mine is a unit where SM and I want a sign that says "Troop ___, we take bad kids." Yes a boy can turn around. But two things need to happen: 1. You need to get through to him that his behavior is foul. Not just bad like the kid with conduct disorder who is having an awful time controlling his temper and is just beginning to be able to handle overnights without a parent around, or bad like the kid who hasn't figured out that the practical jokes have to stop, or bad like the kid who is girl crazy and can't shut up about the one female staff at summer camp two years ago, or even bad like the kid who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and needs a cultural "paradigm shift." He has to catch on that his behavior doesn't make adults angry so much as it makes them want to vomit. 2. He needs to discover that there is pleasure, true joy - if you will, in building other people up. He needs to desire fellowship and acceptance for his positive actions to the point that he wants to seek fellowship and accept other people's hard work. It's sort of the "camel through the eye of a needle" experience. A toxic kid is rich in smarts and verbal skills. He has to develop enough faith set those aside and rely on building other people up instead of tearing them down. You can do something about #1 via discipline, suspension, etc... You can tell a kid about #2, but he's probably so full of himself that he'll not believe you until he decides to take that journey on his own. (This message has been edited by qwazse)

I would avoid Qwasze's approach altogether. An argument with you is exactly what he will want. Skip's point is correct -- partly. The quips I'm suggesting are not merely for the sake of argument. They are to call the boy out and enable the other boys to rightly think about themselves when they are subjected to harshness (from this boy or any other toxic peer). If it's not gonna work for you, then don't use it! Better to throw a yellow flag down and call, "Unsportsmanlike, offense, #87, 15 yards, loss of down." Certainly, the boy doesn't deserved to be rewarded with a steamed adult who gets rankled by the little cherubs every deceit. However you all choose to act, do so in a matter-of-course fashion.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

Where do people get all of these hypothetical scouts? Can I trade a real one who said that to me for yours? Support the kid. Understand if his interests are elsewhere. Let him know you think he's missing out. Warn him that "just skating by" is not a healthy life strategy.

In addition to all of the above, do your best to undermine his premises. e.g. ... "Retarded people can do many things. They belong and are very welcome in our troop. And, Tim is 1st Class because he has done everything necessary to take his patrol hiking and camping. Your flawed assessment about why someone would be held back a grade is an indication that you are little more than a brutish thug. I'd work on reforming that if I were you." "I just saw Fred do __ right. Therefore your statement is flawed. We must then conclude that everyone likes Fred. We conclude therefore that he must remain in his patrol and troop. May your brother scouts one day conclude the same for you." "How many grubmasters have you known? Could your please write them down an a piece of paper so I can compare your list with mine? If he is such a terrible grubmaster, may as punishment you should require him to enjoy his meals in peace the entire weekend." "Your assumptions of what would cause a shelled reptile's heart to fibrilate are flawed. I would also suggest you consider that other assumptions you may have about, say, the strength of his snap, may be flawed. This makes your continued course of action detrimental to your career as a scout." This is not just an SM's responsibility. There are some ASM's who are particularly effective with certain scouts. If you've got one use him.

2cson, welcome to the forums. Looks like your three patrols are working off of one stove because of your hard-nosed SM. You all will have to rely on the good graces of patrol#5. (By the way, I hope you are using #s for a convenience. dens have #s, patrols have names.) Otherwise, read up on campfire cooking. Your real problem is that you have scouts who aren't yet brave enough to own up to their mistakes. The only way through this is to endure a little hardship as a troop. Hopefully in this process the neglectful boys will come forward, you'll find it in your heart to forgive them, shelter them from SM's wrath, and move forward. It doesn't hurt to figure out how to make SM a decent cup of coffee in the morning. That would give him a reson to open up at least one burner for you!

Choco Taco deprivation. That's a new one to me. Cruel would be lining up all the boys who did not go on the orienteering weekend, stripping them of their troop numbers, and saying "we'll give it back to you when you participate in the next troop activity!"

Teaching the boys embroidery is not that far fetched. If they came up with the design, they could mass produce it with the help of a parent with those skills.

Outdoors makes it tough. Even my venturers loose focus. There's a reason why schools have walls. Hang in there. Work on some of the low-key stuff. You may need to have a word with the parents. And like Eng describes, with some groups you'll need to read the riot act. (I.e., get in touch with your inner "bad cop".)

I always encourage competent young men to go camping with their buddies without auld supervision. I apologize that the BSA moniker can no follow them Same applies to 18-20 year old co-eds. If they want to backpack on a long weekend, I'll help them make a plan.

Some thoughts ... In some cultures, inflammatory speech is proof that the speaker's argument is invalid. I get the "real estate" problem of shirts. I think if the problem were posed to me, I would suggest something special epaulets with a white stripe with and red arrow. (An epaulet sash, if you will, I envision endless discussions on which way to point the arrows!) The wearer could simply flip it to the all red (or blue, or green) side when he's not transacting OA business. But, you have pocket-rockets, a lodge flap, a sash. Using them judiciously should get you pretty far. Are there any stats on OA membership trends?

a40, Gotta agree with the other 85% in your training class. Not the SM's responsibility to be on every outing. It is his responsibility to review the boys' tour plan and make sure they've identified trustworthy adult tour leaders. (With proper training, etc ...). Getting ASM's comfortable with being the "go-to guy" is a step along the way to grooming future SM's and Advisors. That said, I know very few SM's who wont plan to be on every monthly campout with their boys. A troop with more frequent events than that, then delegation begins. Which reminds me, maybe the hardest position to fill: Unit Leader's Spouse.

Oh, I forgot to mention the other thing. I carve rubber stamps. It's very easy to do in "down time". Learned about it here: http://www.mitchklink.com/letterboxing/carving.htm I keep a piece of soft carving block, a pencil, paper, and an exact-o knife handy for whenever I think a youth might want one. (Oh, and a stamp-pad for testing!)

He's probably too young to gain a dislike for plaques. I remember when I was a little older than Tiger, I got "honor camper" at church camp. It meant a lot. If you have a spare pinewood derby or regatta kit, you could decorate it for him.

"Though the Boy Scouts have a marksmanship program, Girl Scouts have no such program." Kudo's to those girls for thinking outside the box about what they want! That's the one thing I've always admired about the really active GS troops, they seem to crank out youth with strong organizational skills. Durn those Philmont boys for being so kind to sectarians. Wonder what lambasting BP has in store for me when he finds out that I encourage Christian girls (never too sure about the nice part) to obtain firearms skills.

It's amazing the kind of nerves you'll touch when you just reach out! Whenever you read a negative in guide, remember that it got there because someone somewhere saw something, asked for a ruling, and got it! I'd like to think that for the sash issue, the main concern was that the on-the-belt fashion would cause the insignia to be hidden when it could be displayed more prominently. I'd like to hope that those folks were not feeling that the style was being disrespectful to the organization. In any case, how *you* decide to spin these things to the boys is very important. You shouldn't just parrot the rule and don't give any notion of why it makes sense to you. Neither should you say "that's what the guide said, but, you know, rules are meant to be broken." Rules should make sense, and in this case "increasing visibility of our arrowmen" makes more sense than saying "we don't want to be disrespectful." But, you gotta respect the fact that boys who were selected to this order wouldn't be the type who simply choose a non-compliant style of uniforming unless there was some sense in doing so. But, that does beg the question of when lodge members should be visible and when they should "blend in." (Or rather, only be visible via cheerful disposition and servant leadership.) Also, it begs the question of what can you do to make the lodge flap catch the eye when a boy isn't sporting a sash?

Ther's always gonna be a little back-and-forth, but it sounds like your boys are on the right track. As the boys advance and committee gets to hear from them in boards of review and such, the adults'll catch on.

Female backpacking/wilderness consultant. More the big sister type with a few open weekends than worn out mom pulling two shifts to pay college tuition! No agism on my part. There are some retirees who could fill that big sister role. Fewer of them would clear the physical demands for wilderness activities, but some of their wisdom is just what my youth (male and female) would need.

Don't put up a stink. But encourage your son to either: 1. Respectfully tell SM he really wants to try for the badge, and ask him for help finding a different counselor, or 2. Hold on to that partial. Try again (possibly with the same counselor) at the next opportunity. Lifesaving skills come with maturity, and it's a great thing that your son has started. He'll feel a sense of pride when he arrives (even more when he identifies and properly rescues his first tired swimmer).

Btd, I would argue that your application of oath taking was out of cultural context. Swearing by the highest god around as a vouchsafe for the most trivial acts was common parlance throughout the Mediterranean The apostles were setting about to revise an entire culture starting with Christians who were to not use their newfound Lord's name to intone they were serious about keeping their promise. "Let your yea be yeah, and your nay be nay." This has nothing to do with oaths of allegiance, which only became problematic in ancient Rome when the Caesars insisted on being recognized as supreme over any god a citizen may worship. Pretty soon church leaders (male and female of any age) were named atheists and enemies of the state. None of the O/As oaths are asking anything of the sort from its members.

we like the dark, dark for dark business. Before sunset, Just memorize where everything you'll need is. Every night becomes one big Kim's game.

Case in point: Son #1 wanted to do archery first year of summer camp. Folks told me he should focus on craft type MBs because the scoring requirements might be to hard for him. The kid wanted to do Archery so I let him, and he nailed it. It's still a hobby of his. Meanwhile I think he kept that blue card with a partial in leatherwork for seven years! Now if you boy decides he wants to earn a badge that may be a little tedious and throw off some blizzard seven year schedule, let him!

Hi KJ, It's awesome your boy wants to work on MBs, he might not have realized the social and paperwork challenge involved in earring one. In general, this is the process: Scout tells SM he's interested in earning a particular MB. SM help scout identify counselor, gives permission (usually via blue card) to work on MB. Scout calls counselor, introduces himself, makes appointment to meet, asks what he should bring to first appointment. Scout works on requirements and makes addional appointments as needed. Counselor confirms completion (usually by signing the blue card). Scout relays completion to SM (again, by turning in the blue card). The badge will be awarded at the next opportunity in the troops schedule. This is usually a little much for an 11 year old. That's why the first three ranks don't require MBs. But, if your son is okay with making those calls, let him keep trying.

Y'all ought a know at subterfuge gets your point across better with more fun. Every 15 minutes or so you stop and say/motion "listen!" Kid takes ear buds off, asks "what?" "Sorry, you missed it." Continue walking. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Those of you who consider that to be hazing may actually respond to real sounds of interest. If you do so on a hike with your PLC, they will soon repeat the process with their boys. For program, bring in an expert on wildlife calls the meeting before a hike. Have them play some recordings or make some calls. Explain to boys that sound counts for identifying those 10 animals. You can talk about how important it is to listen to the sounds of the wilderness, but if you don't give your boys some practical reference, they'll never learn how.

I don't think I'd bother over goggles or masks if I'm testing just one kid. Although a boy jumping in can loose them off his head. And in a lake, that may mean taking time to find them. With camp-load of kids in line to be tested, I can see where an aquatics director might prefer to avoid the hassle. "in a strong manner", but it's just a terrible test. What does that mean? How do you tell all of the leaders in your group to evaluate it in the same manner? What is the actual intent of that? A lawyer/soccer ref I know who trains new kids, sometimes refers to famous test-cases by way of explaining certain difficult calls: "It's kinda like porn, you know it when you see it." Some of the tell-tale signs of a "less than strong" manner:Floating partway before the end of the test.Turning yards before the edge to cut distance.Holding the edge/dock for more than a second when making a turn.Not keeping a roughly strait line. Swallowing water and sputtering part way.It's not that any one of these would make me ask the kid to come back rested and re-test. But the right combination that would give the "hair raising on the back of the neck" feeling would definitely do it. When that happens, I try to take a moment and talk the boy through it. I'll ask him how he felt about it? Was he proud? Or was he worried he didn't have it in him? Was he sure he could do that again right away if he had to? Would he like to come back tomorrow practice a little and do it better without everyone rushing him? Usually, it's not just your opinion. The boy knows he didn't do his best. Given the opportunity, he'll come back and try harder and be better for it.

but the woods are not outside the back door. Brew, let me call BS on that. There has to be some plot of land somewhere within 10 miles of you worth camping on. Pack up, walk there. Break the cycle. b430, it's really tough seeing 3 overwhelmed MC's trying to make a program happen. I would suggest this two step approach: 1. Be thankful for them. Show it in any way you can. My committee was never seen on troop outings. SM, maybe an ASM or two, and the 40 of us. But, they kept the wheels going. 2. Set the boys down and say, "Guys, whatever gets done around here, it starts with us. Bring your calendars and let's nail down some dates." (Encourage parents to send boys with their family calendars or a list of open dates.) Make achievable goals.