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@@imachristian13, I don't think you our anyone else can diagnose this as a case of no-matter-where-you-go-there-you-are until you actually go there. Another troop, another campfire, another discussion with different ASMs. I'm betting you drew a bad hand with the last troop. I'm betting they didn't know they were a bad hand. But, if I'm wrong, be sure to tell us.

As to the adult "hangers-on", @@Stosh is not joking about physical distance. At meetings, I usually take it upon myself to engage the adults in conversation.... Drawing them away from the boys. It also, allows me to instruct parents about the patrol method, and what we expect from the boys in terms of hiking and camping independently. To establish that distance in the field, you and your SPL will have to prepare a little before campouts. Get a map of the area. If you're in a big field (we're talking 200 yards square big), plan out sites on the four corners for each patrol and adults in the middle. If you're in wooded terrain or in a valley, you might need sites to be a little closer. Or you might need to set up on alternate sides of a windy trail 40 paces apart. Sort those details out with your SM. Regardless, you want to have on paper where each patrol and the adults will be assigned before you ever leave on your trip. Each group gets their copy of the map, before anybody gets in the car. During the weekend, you and the SPL will have to do a few rounds of walking all that distance to check in on your patrols, then report back to the adults. On the outside chance one of your patrols is misbehaving, you may have to relocate them closer to the adults. But in all likelihood, you'll just need to gather them for morning and evening flags and such. After a few trips like this, you'll either shake those adults or they'll have so much fun together, they'll shake you!

I'm an ASM in our troop, we had an issue about swearing (and using abbreviations for cuss words on social media): We circled up and I explained the problem I made it clear that I considered it a privelage to have them as friends, and one of the things that freinds do is help each other get better. If they swore (verbally or in writing or song), they could expect a "Don't cuss." comment from me. That's it. No swear jar, no push-ups, just me interrupting their speach. Any time I caught it, I would say (or type) so. I encourged them to do the same thing to one another ... a scout is friendly ... a scout is brave. I confessed that I have the problem sometimes too, and I would be glad if they told me a "Don't cuss." If I needed it. It helped diminish things. Not quite to zero, but enough that everyone's language was a little less intimidating and a little more friendly. Nowadays, our boys are older, and I just say "Language!" to the same effect. They know I don't mean them ill will, so it's okay. But a short yet complete scentence calmly delivered for starters helps everyone know that we're not putting anyone down.

The bears in my neck of the woods are pretty shy. But I've never heard of them being attracted to deet or picarin. Anybody actually heard of bears going after mosquito netting? As far as deoderants go, IMHO ... don't. If you want to discourage a bear, smell like the last thing on earth she'd want to tangle with. The great thing about Underarmor, it really seems to absorb those nasty human organics so it's the perfect scent rag. I'd almost be temped to hang the day's shirt in the middle of camp. I'm going to Dolly Sods next month, Lord willing. And the real challenge will be to pick-and-zip the blueberries, then scrub hands with freshwater before pulling out the bagging rope.

Welcome @@brck4, and yes there are a lot of armchair QBs who don't get it. Never will. Tune them out. I'm sure the toughest critics we'll never hear are in Cimmaron right now.

@@jpstodwftexas, having a troop of boys who endured a loss on the road to camp, all I can say is boys are resilient. I never really understood hope until I saw how each of our lost scout's buddies grew up strong and good. Not denying that they go through life with a new burden, and many of them won't be able to face a flood without bitterness. But courage wells up, and they overcome. That arrowhead might recall a tragedy, but it also is the last happy memory of their friend. At least, that's my prayer for them. ...and for the parents and scouters. This is a very hard walk, requiring tremendous grace.

We had a "boundary pusher" like this transfer into our troop at a time when we had a lot of qualified adult MBCs camping with us and, out of the goodness of their heart, providing counseling in house. Thanks to a school system that had no qualms with grade inflation, he learned to leverage a disorder and become a skilled manipulator. Daily, our people told us about how he would try to negotiate his way out of doing requirements. We concluded that if he was "smart" enough to manipulate, he was capable of doing all of the work. So we made sure our people, as well as any camp staff we met, would make no concessions. So, he would take it out on his PL, manipulating out of work, or trying to pick a fight. Finally, to keep the SM's blood pressure in check, we set up a "the buck stops here" committee. Keep pushing it? Talk a walk to the committee table. There he invariably heard "Be a scout, or go home." The MC's were almost certain he'd be going home the next day, and even I was only giving him even odds, but he straightened out for the remainder of the week. So, upon reflection, I'm wondering if we were experiencing what you said earlier about a kid with unrestrained energy in a boy-led outfit. It's not clear if you need a "buck stops here" committee. But, the kids in your troop know the drill. So hold this one to it. Everyone needs to be clear that SMC's and BoR's in other troops are just for fits and giggles.

So ... He's had an SMC, by you. Maybe one by your friend? But it sounds like you'd like one more before signing off in the book. He says he had a BoR by another troop committee for one or more ranks? You have no idea why adults would do that. Me neither (speaking from a troop that has hosted a few visiting scouts for the week). But the boy seemed excited about it on whatever message he left with you? It really sounds like you're gonna get a completely different description of events when you talk to your friend. But regardless ... Is the kid trustworthy? Then you can ask him up front if he had demonstrated those skills well enough to have gotten those signatures if you were there. You could also ask if he could help the new PL practice signing off on requirements by demonstrating the skills he mastered while camping with the other troop. I would ask the kid to schedule a BoR with your committee ... to finalize rank advancement, and to tell the adults what he liked about the other troop and is there anything your troop should try to do. You could use the "I'm worried about anybody looking at your Eagle application finding irregularities in your paperwork ... " excuse. But the fact is, you want your people to be responsible for their boys. Just like you wanted him to be responsible when he was PL. If this is about control, tell the kid straight up. He might not like it, but he'll respect it. Save the paperwork excuse for any helicopter parents.

Sounds like he might want to transfer to the other troop. It could be as simple as him needing older scouts to guide him. Get the full story before spouting off policy.

Now that I consider @@Stosh's situation in specific,I'd agree that his and his committee's signature on SMCs and BORs are the only valid and final ones. The 2nd BoR deal was only a strategy to work around time constraints ... and his scout doesn't have any. The PL's signatures on the other requirements should do. But, if you have doubts about the temporary PL at camp, have the boy demonstrate what he's learned. In response to the latest post: I'd be more concerned to get a word with the temporary SM about any behavior issues. If they happened only on week 1, fine. Chalk it up to prepubescent anxt, male PMS, whatever. If they recurred, a word with the parents is in order.

Tragic.

All of this provisional stuff requires improvisation. If logistics allow, the boy's regular SM should be on the card. But, it's fine if the temporary SM signs it. I'd ask the kid to have two BORs, the first one being official, the second being for some commitee to find out what the boy liked about advancement.

At last report they shared common HQ, so their efforts are coordinated. @@NJCubScouter, war makes strange bedfellows, or as the old middle eastern saying goes, "It is I against my brothers, [unless it's I and] my brothers against my cousins, my cousins against the world."

Oh snap! I "minused" @@CalicoPenn when I wanted to "plus" him!

Yeah, we have bad kids. We know they will poke at the fences. They know we're more than prepared to send them home if they do. Certainly the opportunity to be voted down by their peers serves as a great tool for reflection.

Our council camp staff had a brainstorming session with SMs in camp today, adding both Welding and Blacksmithing MB's was part of the discussion. @@SSScout, they dropped the Citizenship badges from the camp program.

Not gonna argue with a treasurer, @@MrBob. You're doing good work, and have a right to do it in a way that you feel complies to the standards you want to uphold. However, the sharpness of this "stick" you speak of depends on the magnitude of a boy's individual benefit. If you're talking about $300-$400 per boy for camp or for boots and a backpack -- training experience and equipment that a troop needs from every boy to be successful, the bear has harder biting flies to fuss over. If, on the other hand, your troop expects each family to raise tens of thousands of dollars for your boy to retain his membership (precisely the magnitude of sports parents' fundraising that drew an IRS opinion), then you are indeed drawing attention as a bogus tax shelter for parents' extra income! So, however, you choose to present it to your committee, try to avoid excessive drama. And be patient. Who knows? Maybe a couple of other folks in your troop have seen the writing on the wall.

I suspect many folks wouldn't come forward if it wouldn't make a difference. Many did come forward to their significant others ... but to go beyond that and risk public ridicule without a chance of vindication ... most victims draw the line well before that.I can imagine a case of this nature would take months to prep. What I wonder: what other groups face litigation under this statute.

Hmmm. Can anyone think of a rea$on - beyond control - that $ignificant national award$ related to but not under B$A's mi$$ion aren't li$ted in the IG? IHMO, this is a situation where no authority will write an explicit prohibition, but they also aren't going to publish all of the "potential distriactions" from the BSA award tracks.

The expectation that the IG would be an exhaustive list is unreasonable. Yet another of many awards that we can't expect to see in the IG any time soon. Although it is a "control" document, the IG also serves a promotional purpose ... it sells BSA awards (note the catalogue numbers). There is little vested interest in recognizing awards that are not part of its revenue stream. For example, past (expired) awards are not listed.

I did not mean that in the formal sense. But badmouthing outside of their unit ... what other end game is there? Or as that great sage of the modern music industry puts it, "Why ya gotta be so mean?"I've managed a crew with one coadvisor. I understand burnout and failure. But, anyome who can't stand even one of my youth - youth whom I consider the Almighty to have dropped at my campsite on purpose - can get with the program or go pound sand. Either option and we'll all do just fine. By the way, this is no different than when I have a youth complain about another youth. Tell me what he did. Why he did it. Can you all work it out?

So knocking on a few doors and visiting is probably a good idea in your case. Boys your age should be interacting with boys from other troops anyway. You might find a new scouting home for the next three years, or you might come to the conclusion that your current SM isn't so bad after all.

So what we have here are conflicting visions of the ultimate scouting experience. Your SM and ASMs vision is of boys in tight parade formation looking sharp. Yours is of hiking and camping independently with your mates. If everybody wants to hold on to their vision, something's gotta give. Sometimes that means parting ways. Things you need to assess: What do your parents think? Is there another troop or a crew in your area? (If a scout has earned 1st class, he may continue working towards Eagle until his 18th birthday.) Have you worked with other leaders outside of your troop (e.g. Merit Badge Counselors, NYLT).

Well, yes, that happens. But, somehow between two people who weren't the SM, this became grounds for expulsion FROM THE DISTRICT? The parents are perplexed. The SM should be infuriated. But, he is a man of few words. Maybe in the long run that's a good thing.

@@gsdad, I disagree. The leaders of my troop and crew are constantly fitting scouting to the needs and skills of our youth. The hope is that the seasoned kids can operate on their own for a few minutes while we find out what we need to do help the special needs kids adapt. But that definitely means the troop bending its program to fit the kid. Sometimes that meant walking the <insert disorder here> kid to within cell coverage so he could talk things through with his mom. (The conversation usually boiled down to, "Well, I'm here and you're there, you can handle this, and I'll see you when you get home." Then, to us, "You're doing everything I could ask of you. Thanks!") Sometimes that meant an older scout helping the kid understand an order by his patrol leader so that he wasn't bitter about it. Other times, it meant a parent taking the kid home. Other times in meant us telling the parent "Don't send that kid to camp without his meds ever again!" It often did not mean the parent had to be with the kid. It did mean constantly adjusting on everybody's part. It never meant expelling the kid. (Although suspension is always in the offering for conduct disorder kids.)