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@@gumbymaster that sounds like a great idea (if someone would volunteer the tech to support it)! That answers how we get 1000 scouters/parents in the audience. Rather than a single day session, this operates (from the audience's perspective) over several sessions per month. I think that gives users a chance to get comfortable and experience the reality that real patrols take time to come together. The simulation should end after a month or two. This also simulates a scout's tenure. The time online and with whom (your patrol vs. your PLC) should be managed. This simulates a scout's availability for meetings. I could see "infinite room" being managed by only allowing you to choose patrol mates from among the nearest 40 people who start the course about the same time you do. (I.e., every 40 registrants is in a troop.) The downside is being sure your virtual patrol mates are committed. However, that's the risk that every scout faces as he joins his patrol. The challenges would have to be virtual, but may involve something like uploaded taking pictures of your gear (a la tenderfoot requirements) or the results of a service project. Here's a kicker: maybe a patrol's results should be judged by scouts taking NYLT! They get to up-vote patrols they admire. The closing lessons for each patrol would involve after action review, and how much they'd like to see something like this for their boys in real space.

Nice. It's good that folks want to give you a listen. Keep in mind, if fundraising (or any other project) gets tossed back to you ... it's you and the boys. They can take as much responsibility as you need them to (probably all of it with your oversight). Salesmanship is still a merit badge. Before the meeting actually starts, challenge the PL to have an opening activity for for the boys. He might have a favorite, or provide two 5 gallon buckets, a length of bull rope and boys challenge each other two at a time to pull each other off their respective bucket. This will give you time to introduce yourself to the parents one-on-one as they arrive. As far as the meeting, my strategy with small groups of boys is to unfold a road map or state trail map, and have them discuss the where, when, and how. Hopefully once you start they can keep it going on their own and get back to chatting with adults. As a parent, my trust grows as I meet leaders and watch them interact with my kids. So, you want to show a little of each in the meeting.

@@Blackcat, thanks for the post! You may have answered your question, but we're starting to make it fun! The perfect acronym is ruined. T2F made good shorthand for the rank names and "Trail to First Class". When I see S-FC, my cobwebbed mind goes to "Star or First Class". Maybe Sc-Fi? Oh wait, nevermind.

Page 2 of http://www.scouting.org/filestore/boyscouts/pdf/524-012_BS_Requirements.pdf The requirements for the Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class ranks may be worked on simultaneously; however, these ranks must be earned in sequence. So, yes if your son is into knots, he can master them while he's still trying to memorize the oath and law ... and if his PL is doing sign-offs on timber hitches, the boy can demonstrate them and get that signature in his book!

Hmmm, let$ think if there'$ a rea$on. The "on record" reason boiled down to increasing adversarial action by the New York district attorney if we applied the membership standard to camp employees. A test case was in the works. Lose a state, or change your standards. Furthermore, national's legal team foresaw other states lining up legal action. The awareness that, at every turn, concessions were given up grudgingly no doubt contributes to tepid enthusiasm that those with a permissive sexual ethic may have towards signing up their youth to our movement.

Simply put: they don't believe national TV campaigns will give sufficient return on investment. I'm inclined to agree. E.g., that add from the 1970's ... was at the start of a the steady membership decline.

It ain't Koolaid so much as it is hearty broth. Won't taste great, takes longer to stir and cook, but carries you further. Sounds like some boys need to learn to trust one another and themselves rather than their electronic devices. Joe Bob, yours are among the PLs who I would love to have on my "dream team" panel. The other piece of the puzzle, if I had time to give it, would be reports from the non-scout adults (teachers, coaches, youth leaders) in your boys lives. The audience needs to understand the good, the bad, and the ugly if they are to commit years of their lives to it for their boys. You know, I haven't sold too many expensive things myself in my life ... a couple used cars and a house. But I learned that I could close the deal at the fair price I wanted if I was brutally honest about what ailed the merchandise, and if I was willing to patiently turn down low-ball offers. I proposed to my girlfriend when she didn't have her makeup on. (We were snowed in, which is probably why I'm remembering it now.) We're selling the world boys who will be inculcated with trustworthiness (among other things) by the time they reach adulthood. But the cost is a little hunger, failure, discouragement, and hard climbs from deep valleys along the way.

Agree there is nothing nebulous to this. That's why boys (at least the ones we admire) love it. What is difficult is increasing the trust that the boys can do it. The only way I can think of overcoming this difficulty is presenting such boys to sceptical adults. (And, sometimes, to other skeptical boys.)

It depends on the contract made when collecting payments for things like high adventure accounts. For example, in our crew, we do not return deposits (which we usually collect monthly) on HA contingents. It is the responsibility of the person who cancels participation in the contingent to find his/her replacement and collect whatever payments he/she made from his/her replacement. The replacement then makes the remaining payments to our crew to reserve his/her slot. We simply do not have the operating margin to do big-ticket scouting any differently. At the end of the trip, if we came in under budget, we divide the surplus evenly among participants. I don't think @singlemomhlppls is in any situation like that. But, the troop may have already committed some of the "credits", such as they were, to payments on camp or new equipment for each boy. That may partly explain their reticence to pass the funds along. But it sounds like they might just be paranoid about moving the money along. Some of us know of scouters who are control freaks. The scenario is not that far fetched. That's why I suggested that the boy just sends a couple of receipts/invoices ... even if his expenses are with the other troop. Maybe attach a note "Hey, I'm still scouting. Any chance you could back me here?" That's more likely tug at a scouter's heartstrings than mom's appeal to fairness.

Where are you getting this 1K crowd of newbie parents in a day? I guess if I were to start anywhere, it would be with the Good Book. Numbers 13 - about Moses commissioning a 12 scout patrol of Canaan. The immediate results (aside from one massive cluster of grapes) weren't all that great. But the long-term impact on Joshua and Caleb's leadership skills changed their nation from hapless Bedouins to an invasion force. I then might describe Baden Powell's reliance on patrols of soldiers (himself included) to scout enemy defenses for the Royal Army in Africa. About how his memoirs of scouting out the land captured the hearts and minds of British youth ... resulting in him starting the worldwide movement we know today. I would then turn the meeting over to some youth who were former (or maybe current but seasoned) patrol leaders. Each would describe each scout in his patrol - probably anonymously given the size of the crowd - by age and rank, and talk about what their skills are. He would then describe his patrol's favorite activity, least favorite activity, and what they hope to do in upcoming months. I would then have a panel discussion with some questions like: When your troop camps, how far away does your patrol set up from the others? How are adults helpful to your patrol? How do they get in the way? (I might make sure their unit leaders aren't in the audience for that one.) What was it like for you when you first joined your troop? Then, as time allows, I would take questions from the audience. (Maybe have them divide up into groups of 8-12 and decide among themselves what one question needs to be asked.) Finally, close encouraging folks to have the same vision for their boys, and watching how the boys grow as a result. The format might change, but I can't see how anything I say about the PM will motivate folks any better than what boys will say about the best and worst of their own patrols.

Welcome to the forums! Unless we're talking about thousands of dollars, I have always countered that the tax angle of this argument is overblown. If it were that much, maybe the treasurer has a right to be nervous about the $ following the scout without requisite tax paperwork being completed. Regardless, "credits" with a unit are just that -- with the unit and at their discretion as to how they should be spent. If I were your boy, I would at least give them a receipt to be reimbursed for the $1 transfer fee. If your scout needed to make material purchases (new uniform numbers, neckerchief, different colored sleeping bag), he might want to turn receipts for them in as well! Most of us scouters really do care and ask after our youth even after they leave our units. So, if you were counting on that money for a summer camp or something that the new troop is collecting money for right now, and you are in a bind, have the boy talk to his new SM. You could talk to the troop committee chair as well. They may be able to float your son until he can participate fully in one of their fundraisers, or they may be able to smooth things over with the old troop. The advice about your son working odd jobs, however, is just a general good idea -- especially for a boy who may be losing interest in scouts and may want to find new interests. If he gets in the habit of earning about $100 a month (or being worth that much in chores to you to about that tune) and socking it away in a savings plan that he controls, by next summer he'll be ready for most any big-ticket adventure that comes his way.

You mean this one from Scouts South Africa? Or was it this one from Scouts UK? Or this home-grown "Happy Scouts" challenge from Slovenia? (Seriously, if you're having a bad day, take a moment to search the YouTube for "Happy Scouts".) Regarding BSA on network TV, your local council would have to pay to run the spot, and here's the collection they have to choose from: http://www.scouting.org/Home/Marketing/Brand/PFL_Videos.aspx

You know, the stats are all fine and good until eight city blocks are shut down and you're calling your colleagues in the building being attacked to know if they are OK.

The way it was explained to me was the advancement changes had mainly to do with streamlining. The FCFY strategy (which really didn't depend on what the FC reqs were) had mainly to do with retention. I'm sure in the minds of some those were inclusive goals. Note that your "coordinator" is an outflow of that streamlining process. No such animal in my youth. (Of course the paperwork was less as well.) They had skill award instruction when I went to camp in the 70s. I concluded that my SPL could better teach me how to cook! We all have rough edges. The question boils down to are the adults willing to grow and learn? If there was a growth spurt, there probably was an influx of young dads (maybe one or two moms) who signed on as leaders. So, picking and choosing the best trainers as time goes forward will improve that. Have fun. And eventually, on a campout, ask the adults how much burnt grilled cheese they've eaten with a smile (and maybe some hot sauce ).

Other way around. There were endowments given to specifically research why more scouts didn't get Eagle. (When Son #1 joined in the 90s there was a dedicated camp staff running a newly formed "Trail to Eagle" area. His job was to have a sit-down with all FC+ scouts about setting goals for the next rank.) Subsequently, the trail to first class programs opened up. (At our camp, I think it was the year following the T2E experiment). Overall, though, the advancement revamp was the implementation of that total quality management culture, with boys being cogs in a massive process. One that did not see Eagle as a possibility, but rather as a probability.

There will always be a hierarchy. It makes precious little difference if the lines from (S)PL to SM on the organizational chart are horizontal are vertical. The question is: what goes on as you follow those lines? I find the Mentor/Mentee relationship has the best image of what should be happening. The youth should realize that you're not their boss. You're just this guy with skills, who knows other caring adults with different skills, who from time to time will throw down a challenge and see if some youth will take it on. I think it used to be that we attracted parents who believed that so much that, if the boy burnt the grilled cheese, we ate it happily. (Well, maybe thanks to a little bottle of Tabasco sauce in my personal kit.) Now, we often attract parents who expect us to never let the boys serve up anything but golden-brown whole wheat toast. This increases the pressure to turn adult association into adult management.

I spend a lot of time trying to drag parents off of that "must Eagle" ledge. I'm certain neither as a youth my SM or ASM had to do that for my or any other boys' parents. That's significant because there was no pressure if a kid fell in with a patrol that was a little less skilled than another. Advancement was on me and nobody else ... we all knew that. Nowadays, there's a sense that if our adults are not providing a counselor for every required MB from within the troop, we're doing the boys a disservice. I'm pretty sure, in my youth, if you weren't the best person for the badge, you weren't on the list.

I think our society is best described as post-modern nomadic. Private closed-spaces (temporary relative to the lifetime of the folks living in them), two hour commutes in closed carriages, and shared open spaces. The latter includes "downtown", local parks, community gardens, and National parks.

Not to split hairs ... But I'm picking up a bit of a false dichotomy. Master (not mentor) goes with apprentice.Mentor goes with mentee (not apprentice) Perhaps part of the way adult association goes off the rails is that it gets conflated with all possible hierarchies when only a few are intended.

My LC growing up worked similarly. Nowadays, our venturing crew fills that role.

The verbiage alone in the preface of the new version has doubled compared to the previous New Unit Application. Not sure any new CO would be in a hurry to sign on.

I just realized my big laundry list might undermine @@TAHAWK's emphasis. The only reason I gave you a list of ideas is because it sounds you've got good people supporting you. Worst case scenario: parent's don't come on board, your CC can put in the hours, ASM's ditch you. Your #1 priority is to guide these boys in making achievable goals that they can implement within a year or so. (E.g., six inexpensive weekends in as many months. A community service project. Something with the Pack. A public event. A fundraiser that they can manage from soup to nuts. With a court of honor thrown in to recognize it all.) In other words, the guys in your troop need to be a patrol. They need to love each other. They need to feel proud doing it. That's where you come in. Do that. Let the laundry list fall by the wayside. If that happens. Parents will start talking about you all. The boys will start talking about it. Growth will happen. You can pick up your laundry list again when you've got the right adults standing by you.

I'm sorry if I confused anyone about special training for the yet-to-figure-its-name patrol's PL and ASPL. I didn't have "ILST booster" or "NYLT prep" in mind. I was thinking instruction would take the form of unique skills like "one-match fires" or "five favorite pancake recipies" or "carbon-proofing pots". Or the SPL inviting, "Hey the QM and I are inspecting and patching tents/pots/gear, then grabbing Pizza afterword. SM's treat. Wanna join us?" The goal: getting the PL to count on a couple of older scouts to be instructors. Note: I am not using that stinky three-letter abbreviation for the yet-to-figure-its-name patrol -- precisely for the reason @@MattR has described. This patrol no longer has new scouts. @@Eagle94-A1, your son is one smart cookie. Follow his advice.

Great. Roundtables should be a time for you to refresh and touch base with other scouters. Not much different than your coach's clinics in your soccer league. If you can't make one, send a committee member or ASM in your stead. 1) Have your committee chair and charter org rep call a "parent meeting". It may start during the troop meeting. If these are decent boys, you and the SA's can step away while they are occupied working on skills. - If some of the boys have had the SM conference, they could conduct one or two boards of review. Then invite you, and maybe your oldest scout, to "drop in." - The goal is to let them know what the boys would like to do, what needs to be done and where you think you need their help. - Then you excuse yourself to attend to the boys, while the CC keeps the conversation going. - Make sure you all are reasonable with the positions that need to be filled. Focus on the urgent not on filling in blanks. - Some things, like fundraisers, might turn out to be better managed by one of the boys. - Committee chair cheerfully closes saying he'll be in touch and would like to have another "parent meeting" in a month. - Repeat until parents enjoy each other's company so much they apologize for missing a meeting. Give the ones who apologize a committee member patch. 2) Nobody should "Tap out" as Eagles. If they ain't 18, they can work on Palms. When they turn 18, have the CC give them an Adult Application and invite them to be ASM ... at least until they go to college or boot camp. - You have one patrol. You do not have an SPL or ASPL, even if a boy is wearing that patch. One boy is the PL and the other is assistant (probably the two Life scouts). And other 1st Class and up scouts have specific skills (from the outside, some may call them obsessions) which keep the patrol running and full of good humor. - Sometimes, in patrols like these, the 2nd class scout gets elected PL so the other guys can "coast" ... often times they aren't really slacking, they are doing whatever needs to get done, but would rather not have the "official" name attached. The best way to figure out what you really have is to observe these primates in the wild. - Ask the younger scouts if they've ever talked to their friends about what the troop does. Ask the older scouts if they've ever though of visiting the local middle school with an adult to promote the troop to 6th graders. Have the CC contact your DE about scheduling a "boy talk" at middle school. - Ask your charter org rep if every boy in the organization has been invited to join the troop. - Parades ... participate in them. If the boys can run a booth and sell hot-dogs during a community day, or give out water during a 5k or whatever other event is big over there, fit it in the schedule. 3) It's always good to try to fit in "exit interviews" with boys who drop off in attendance or quit. Depending on the boy this could be you or it could be a senior scout. - This is a short conversation ... just to make sure you conveyed that they meant a lot to the troop and you want to seem them do well in the world and maybe come back to visit for a spell. - That parent sit-down? See my reply in "#1". Lean on your CC to herd parents. Lord knows you'll hear from them soon enough without any effort on your part. - At most you're dealing with 7 families. That's possibly 14 parents -- probably less. If just a couple more work with the CC, you're doing good. - The real "sit down" will be with those two webelos parents. The boys should be visiting your troop soon, possibly joining in on activity with them. While that happens take the parents aside and introduce them to your other adults and maybe that SPL.

I had one scout call me before an EBoR in a panic because he could not find a web belt. I told him that a leather belt would be acceptable, and the committee would not even notice. I closed the call wishing him well and assuring him he'd do just fine! And he did. It was all I could do to keep from calling the committee chair and asking him to point out the belt during the review! Focus on what's under the uniform rather than what's on it. Our boys never wear sashes to BORs.