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Obviously, if one is wont to see gremlins, the more one thinks, the more gremlins one will see ... Even when reading about acts of common courtesy. But, I can see if the BoR is comprised of complete strangers to both SM and scout, the notion of one introducing the other falls flat. The GTA makes no such distinction.... "... They need not be on an advancement committee or registered with the Boy Scouts of America, but they must have an understanding of the rank and the purpose and importance of the review. This holds true for Eagle boards of review held in any unit, whether troop, team, crew, or ship." (8.0.3.0-3) Welcome the occasional guest on your unit BORs!

Actually, BSA should only keep it's rules and regs. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/BSA_Rules_and_Regulations.pdf Article VII. Section 2. Clause 1. (d) Boy Scout—Must be under the age of 18 and (1) have completed fifth grade and be at least 10 years old, or (2) have earned the Arrow of Light Award and be at least 10 years old, or (3) be age 11 or older. In any case, the OP knew these boys were enrolled against regulations. Others before him may or may not have known. That's not the point. The point is how to fix the mess so the boys can continue scouting with pride. That pride certainly includes the knowledge that requirements mean something.

I've operated a youth group and formerly-very-independent committee under this sort of thing. It actually works smoothly. Drop receipts off with an expense report, pick up a check. Drop deposits off, pick up an income report. Auditing is not your problem. Just sync up with the church treasurer every whip-stitch to be sure last year's surplus is carried over into the next budget year. But, it does add demand on the institution. So, the COR, IH, and Treasurer just need to understand the volume of additional transactions they're asking to manage directly. When they hear that, they might be proud to help you bear that load, or they might rush you to the bank to get you your checkbook!

A patrol of venturers is "fishy" as well, but sometimes life's simpler if we let them act like that. Sometimes it's not and can be highly disruptive to their other obligations and to the health of the crew. This kind of thing is a boots-on-the-ground decision. Show approval when it's working, respectfully ask to desist when it's not.

You know, I never thought to ask how or even if I should. It's what was done for me (and I can't remember if it was done at every rank, not just Eagle), so I passed it on. Our boards are done with the troop committee and the district rep(s) ... who sometimes is the fellow who helped the boy with his project paperwork. So, it's not like the candidate was walking into a den of strangers. He certainly didn't need my help. I just thought recognizing the magnitude of the moment is the SM's responsibility. Nobody came up to me afterword and commented about what I did -- good, bad or indifferent. So, I think this is pretty much what SM's do around here. As to how they are held, centrally or distributed to the units, I guess it's the culture. Changing it from one way to the other would be traumatic for most involved. In our parts, we are still dependent on when the district reps are available, and that is only on meeting nights a fraction of the time. I suppose folks could complain, but we wont. We're grateful for them taking time out of their schedules to come to us. So, we flex accordingly.

@@blw2, at a certain age, boys seem to need intersecting circles. So, there is their patrol, and their leadership corps, and their jamboree contingent, and their O/A chapter, (and sports and band and youth group). The trick is to make sure they are realistic with their time so that nobody feels "neglected". (Sometimes that'll mean saying no to some things.) For example, growing up, there were some Eagle projects (or certain stages of a project) where it was best to just pull from the leadership corps. So the scout would coordinate a camping weekend with just that small group. The benefit for our patrols? We picked up some skills, like cooking pizza with a patrol mess kit, that we could take back and use to "up our game" as patrol leaders. It's pretty obvious. When the young ones need help. You are PL. When bed-check is done or everyone is off to merit badge classes, you are this guy in the leadership corps. Or, maybe you're touching base with your venturing crew across the valley after clearing it with your SM.

Yep. Practice. I couldn't aim a rifle for diddly, not much better at archery, but I was gonna make for sure that I could handle any bow that I picked up. I remember coming home, pulling my brothers 20# wooden re-curve from the rafters, sifting through the arrows, adjusting the bowstring I made at camp (which meant building my own jig), and setting up a target (thanks to Dad for the hay bales and poster) at 18 yards ... just so I knew I'd be good at shorter distances. One less model plane being built, and I had a plan for my weekends and evenings. On warm days, my 100 year old grandpa would come out to smoke his stogie and we'd set up a chair so he could watch me shoot. Got the badge the following summer. As to BSA's intent on the distances, I don't think the minutes of how the requirements were made are anywhere to be found. They certainly didn't have any particular brand in mind. So, the best you could do is tell the boys taking the badge what other scouts have experienced with your collection of bows, and suggest they start practicing at 15 yards. That may mean you have to move one or two more targets back to accommodate the extra time needed at that distance.

Congratulations to your scout! And thank you for all the support you've given! Subbing for the SM, I've done it once -- based on my experience of my SM doing it for me when I was a scout. It went something like: Fellow scouters, it is my pleasure to present to you, for your review of progress towards rank, Mr. {name}, a scout in good standing with troop ### for x years, and crew ### for y years. Most recently, he has served scouting in the capacity of ___ for {unit} ###. His other formidable credentials are before you in his application, references, and project report, which I presume you have found to be in order. I trust you will enjoy your time with our scout. I'll be next door and look forward to talking to you all shortly. Yes, I wax a little formal. But, I figure the boy's SM's/ASM's have been setting the tone for a good many years. No reason to stop now.

Oh, I almost forgot .... NHB-PWD: No holes barred pinewood derby. Bring down those old cars from your trophy shelf. Modify as you desire, so long as they don't impede the other car on the track. No weight restrictions. No design issues. (Well maybe no incendiary mechanisms.) If your CO has a smooth outdoor surface, you might consider a horizontal race. Airhogs provide impressive propulsion. If you're willing to jump through a bunch of safety hoops, model rocket engines turn the whole thing into a drag race. If you design it well, the cars could go against the grade. (Reverse PWD!) Figure out when the average motor is spent and design the track a little longer. At the end, launch across a sand pit -- points for distance. Spoiler alert: most cars won't survive more than two races. No patch, no trophy, just bragging rights. Maybe first in line for snacks.

I have regularly posted on FB (for the sake of my venturers mainly): "Hey Girl Scouts, I have a door ... And a phone! Largest order to the first caller." Plenty of likes, no sells. So I wound up last year buying from a girl who was taking orders at her dad's coffee shop. I congratulated her on being so diligent and prepared with her order form. And said, "I'd place another order with any other scout who had her order form ready and willing to deal." Her younger sister who was in the seat next to me, form on the table, remained glued to her electronic device unflinching. I wink at her dad who's across the bar, who just shook his head. This year, the older sister was taking my coffee order and said, "Our Cooke sales have started, but I left may order form at home." (Dad's shaking his head.) I say, "So how is that my problem?" She thinks a couple of seconds, grabs a tablet, and starts writing my order. At least this year younger sister will strike up conversations ... Even about what her troop would do with the cookie $s ... But still hasn't figured out to ask if I would like to place an order with her.

Growing up, we never did T2F in meetings. All skills were to be demonstrated at camp or with PL on your own time. You read the book. You called your buddy. You tried to do what it said. Meetings were when you brought a guest in to talk about stuff like an MB, scouting in the good old days, etc ... I don't think this was a hard-and-fast rule. It's just how we organized. Indoors were for pool (in the Flaming Arrow patrol's room), air hockey (in the Cobra patrol's room), or ping pong (in the Wolf patrol's room). On nice days, it was dodge-ball in the back yard. You know? Now that I think of it, for our SM seeming to be pretty uptight, he gave us space to be a depraved lot.

Regarding council strips ... you need to ask yourself, if nothing changed about the uniform except my council circulated a new patch for my sleeve, what would I do? I think most folks would put take off their community strip and put the new patch on. Sometimes, you just gotta make compromises.

Three things conspired in my crew Advisor stressors: by the time our youngest were coming up between me and my co-advisor, we had eight kids between us in college or "between jobs." Our replacements weren't forthcoming. The best candidates were getting jobs elsewhere. Girls who didn't want to camp and boys who only wanted to camp. No unified vision for the "next big thing." No desire to meet enough to build that vision. Increased registration fees. I've discussed this elsewhere. For the money, high school kids in my community can have just as fun a weekend hiking and camping independently on their own. The first two are local. Other crews are popping up annually thanks to GS/USA's inconsistent late-teen program or BSA's domineering SM's. The third is global.

You might want to check some National Field Archery Association clubs to see how they handle this. It's hard to say how a particular bow should be classified unless you see how it performs in hundreds of hands. NFAA clubs may have some experts who can give you a more technical opinion. My gut is to advise the kid to not use a bow that isn't serving him well. It's not just the let-off that's hurting the boy. It's the stability of his forearm, the appropriateness of his stance, the sense of arc, the variation in shafts and fletchings, the placement of the range with respect to prevailing winds, and how his eyes focus. Sometimes a bow that feels good on the draw screws up an archer's ability to adjust for everything else. Your time might be better spent helping him perfect his use of one of your stock recurves, or -- if you can find a volunteer to loan one -- a small longbow.

Actually, over the years, we (along with other non-profits) have had a steady stream of land donations. Not sure how unusual Pennsylvania is in that behavior.

Reverse Orienteering (a.k.a. Surveying) - Provide each patrol a zoomed-in U.sG.S map of the grounds (caltopo.com Is a good source), a compass, and a purple pencil. - demonstrate using bearings to triangulate landmarks. - Challenge the boys to walk the grounds and draw in any new landmarks that weren't on the map at the time of it's last revision. - you could also add landmarks (e.g. Flags, etc...) if your grounds are largely unchanged. - evaluate boys on the quality of updated maps. If you use flags, you could actually add up the distance their points are from their true location. The objective is to increase skill with setting bearings and orienting maps.

To get Fred up to speed ... Time flies. They have been in this troop for over a year -- newbies no more. E94-a1 is now dubbed the "ASM to the NSP", The NSP is hardy new anymore, paucity of 1st class scouts notwithstanding. His Son #1 had served a full term as SPL last year, thus earning him veteran status. So, by internal standards, he has full authority to reign these hoodlums in. By those same standards, he does not have a say in when/how to reconfigure the membership. The notion of re-configuring as you go along not being part of this troops culture, SM is holding of until elections a couple of months down the road for such things. On the 8-month horizon, an large influx of crossovers. For those of us on the outside, "reigning in" this cadre is an exercise of elevating blood pressure. E94-A1, did I miss anything else that's keeping the pieces on this board in check?

I think we can build off of any merit badge, but one that may be useful: Astronomy. - Each patrol get a major constellation -- Draw a sky-map of it on card stock -- Identify the stars therein. -- From books/downloads show pictures of objects that could be seen in that part of the sky with a really good telescope. -- If the sky's clear, and it's still dark out, and the time is right, step outside and show scouts how to find it.

I keep going back to thinking "you can only do what you may do." This is not an NSP. It is a T2FP (trail to first class patrol). The handbook is written under the (flawed) assumption that 1st class is obtainable in a year for most boys. Well, if most boys buy-in to advancement being an important thing, maybe. But, our troop flipped, we got a rowdy patrol where fellowship was the most important thing with adventure coming in a close second. We leaned hard on them to be responsible for their own goals. (They made pancakes and cleaned gear a lot!) Is it likely that you and one of the boy's parents would chaperon a patrol overnight? Forget this trying to stay organized in a meeting and fiddling with rosters and menus. Find someplace close, a weekend you can spare, and offer it. No rosters, everybody pitch $20 in for food and gas. Provision at some general store near camp. Have them give the SM a decent plan (tour plan stuff: departure, return, drivers, etc ...) and implement it. For uniforming, try only requiring their neckerchiefs (friendship knotted so they don't lose their slide). I'm just saying, if change is not forthcoming from the top, work with what you have. And by "work" I mean stop trying to get them to be anything other than who they are during meetings, start trying to get them to perform in situations where they won't be a drag on the troop. This is no longer your current SPL's or TG's problem, this is the PL/APL's problem. So, since your'e stuck as their adviser, find an environment where the scouts aren't gonna frustrate you as much. For me that would be a sizable field where I can find a corner to swap stories with my co-chaperon, make some coffee, fish, and watch the sky.

We have some scouts on council camp staff. As such, we let them wear the silver epaulets. Also, while VOA officers, our venturers wear silver (or yellow, if a area/regional officer). The main reason is to get younger scouts to ask "why" and then learn about the ways they can lead in different levels of scouting. But that's youth. So, go with the forest green. Or save the dimes and use your vintage shirts. If you still fit in them, more power to you!

On behalf of my liberal muslim friends, I must object to @@Stosh's use of "jihad" for his Conflict Level 6. Perhaps "Carpet Bombing" would be more suitable and typical of an American conflict response. {rant over} I advised a TG who was frustrated by the boys to just lower his expectations of what gets accomplished. If there's an instigator, send him to me to help find something for supplies. Your NSP is not new in age but maybe in experience. How often have they camped? Have they ever planned one activity (e.g., a hike around town) just their patrol? Whatever you're expecting of this patrol, they don't want to do it. You really need to get these guys away from busywork like rosters and onto tasks. Surely the CO has a bathroom that needs cleaned or a closet that needs organized, or (as you all aren't inundated with snow) weeds to pull and fire ants to poison? Start giving them service opportunities. Tell the PL that you hate to interrupt their very important meeting but someone asked if the boys could do X. (Obviously, make sure X is a ten minute task 'cause it sounds like this lot will take thirty to do it.) Or, fill a bucket of water and challenge them to relay it across/around the property without spilling it. Then get another bucket and challenge them to relay them in opposite directions. Then challenge them to use their buckets to fill a barrel. Meanwhile, get yourself a nice chair, a cup of tea (Chamomile, given how these boys are getting under your skin), sit back and watch. It won't be any prettier, but it will sure be funny.

Not odd at all. BSA did not invent LNT. It adopted it because troops were tramping up State and National parks. Their own properties couldn't possibly be managed under such guidelines given the desired volume of untrained campers. The guys on the camping committee are a stand-up lot of execs and volunteers. The names at the bottom of the report are passionate supporters of scouting and Western PA. Some of them (if I recognize the names correctly) are accountants and property managers. The back story: we've merged three councils in as many years because two were folding. (Thus the gerrymander when you look at the maps.) Needless to say, when it came time to balance the books, we had to lose executives. To get back those executives, we either need to increase fees, raise funds, or sell property.

"During this past year, our Council’s Board of Directors adopted a Strategic Plan with specific objectives relating to Membership, Marketing, Program, Development, Leadership and Governance, Unit Service, and Facilities. With respect to Facilities . . . the Strategic Plan directs us to develop a short and long range camp master plan. As the first step in our planning process, we’ve invited John Stewart, a consulting engineer with the Boy Scouts of America national office, to visit our Council and conduct a review of our facilities. John, along with members of our Laurel Highlands Council camping and properties committees, visited all ten of our camps and our three office buildings." http://lhc-bsa.org/~/media/Councils/Council527/527%20FSR%202016%20January%20Final.ashx Personal note: the boys in our units' preferred camping locations are among the ones mentioned for closing.

Don't feel too bad. Our crew's "on the brink" as well. If I can't cycle in new blood (both in terms of graduating 8th graders and in terms of passionate adults) next year might close it out. In that context, I'm a little concerned that an event like this may be a distraction.

Now gents, @@htusa31 created this new topic so we wouldn't run it off the rails! But, reinterpret Stosh's objection ... with the role-modelling approach can you model structure, but you can't model a desired character. For example, board can learn how to operate by Roberts' rules by observing other seasoned boards. However, if some members are bent on using the rules to muzzle others ... following the rules to a T will only keep malicious members in check and make the folks you'd really like to hear from not want to participate. Until you do the grunt-work of rebuilding the members' relationships with one another, giving them any model in which to operate will prove an exercise in futility. Role modelling worked with this troop because the boys already liked each other. They knew they wanted to accomplish some things. They knew it wasn't happening the way they were doing it. And, they believed they could do it differently and achieve a different outcome. SM provides one demonstration, and they were ready to act, proceeding with minimal guidance in the form of routine evaluation. I think NYLT, camporees, O/A, jamborees, and H/A contingents offer a variety of models that boys can evaluate. This partially helps avoid the "rut" that Stosh describes. But if boys aren't going in thinking "This is gonna help my troop/patrol back home," experiencing different models won't have much of a transforming effect. In that case, working with the boys as you observe their talents and adjusting to that over monthly activities is the better strategy.