BadenP

Gunny I agree with you, but the way SM presents this training it would be the same training as they receive at camp school which would make them qualified to be certified life guards/ aquatic supervisors which I don't buy National would want on a volunteer level. A modified basic skill course is a whole other matter, that is why I think SM is a little confused and why I think if there is this kind of course for volunteers it will be a very basic skills type.

Well all I can say is that it happened and is done. Everyone one is happy and I will not be the one to say it can't be done because of some ridiculous technicality. If you met this woman you would see that she is a very mature adult, engaged to be married and going to nursing school, not some giddy teenager. So bottom line if you don't like it tough, BPDT you can write the SE and tell him he doesn't have the authority to grant an exception cuz I think he knows a little better than you what he can and can not do, lol.

BDPT, It would really help if you read prior posts before you comment. Eagle and I already discussed that first class rank only applies to youth members, not adult members, did you not understand that or what? Since this 19 year old woman is considered an adult by boy scout rules, the only question was the issue of 21 year old adults plain and simple. In this case the lodge really wanted to honor this woman, all the adults in the lodge agreed, and the SE approved an exception to the 21y.o. rule. So I don't see your problem, except maybe for some personal prejudice?

SM I think you got it a little backwards the aquatics guy at your camp just because he went to camp school does not make him a qualified Instructor for adult instruction. He was trained to run an aquatics center at a camp, period. The courses are specialized and designed for those individuals working in the aquatics part of camp only, not the general scouting population. These are not required training courses for scouters now or probably in the future.

Well Eagle92 I will say this the National policy seems to be real loose when it comes to inducting adults since its more about bestowing an honor than the youth service aspect. In a little over a year this woman will be 21 anyway and she is absolutely awesome in her skills and knowledge. She has really turned her troop around from little to no advancement to almost 100% advancement, and the lodge really wanted to honor this accomplishment. The lodge officers received approval of all the adults,including the SE. Not to brag (ok maybe just a little)she is a former member of my crew, was crew president for three years and received both the Silver and Ranger Awards, staffed and ran Kodiak and the VOA. If there ever was going to be a female Eagle Scout this lady would have been a great candidate. Guidelines and rules do and have changed over the years when it makes sense to do so or they have become obsolete.

Well I guess my council's lodge interpret the guidelines different cuz they recently inducted a 19 year old female ASM into the Order, when I was a DE no women were allowed in and now I see plenty of women wearing their OA sashes to scouting events. I think once you open the barn doors its hard to keep the horses in and these gray guidelines get interpreted and reinterpreted until no one is really sure or cares. Eagle 92, I think that since there are women who have never received first class in the OA that rule is for youth only and not adults who are chosen to be inducted.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

BPDT Oh contrare my friend say this 18 year old woman became an ASM and she left the venturing crew, then she would be eligible for the OA like so many other female SM's and ASM's, so not a moot point afterall.

Eamonn, are you really sure about the dogs?, lol

Mafaking is correct, the main problem in the boy scout program are that many leaders can not apply what they learn in their own troops, many times it is because the lack of quality of the instruction or the misunderstanding of the literature by the instructors. The other problem are those scouters who think they have a better vision for their troop and ignore the training info. IMHO all boy scout training should begin with a copy of Baden Powell's book Handbook for Boys, to be read before training, in order to give every scouter a sense of the vision he had for scouting, and gives everyone an equal starting point, then supplemented with current policies and procedures and techniques to give each leader a complete all around picture of what scouting is suppossed to be.

After all this quibbling lets look at the facts, ok, she is eligible to be an ASM, if she is like many of the female venturers I have or had in my crew she is much more than qualified to teach outdoor skills to the boys, in fact many girls can put the boys to shame when it comes to outdoor skills. Can she be in the OA, IMHO she should be but it really does not matter since females have been part of the OA for years so why argue over trivialities it is not like we are trying to pretend that the OA is still some kind of male bastion in scouting anymore, are we? Another point it probably won't hurt the troops numbers during recruitment either, so if this young woman is really worth her salt then she should be given every opportunity to be the best leader she can be, period.

First of all sherminator, I did not hijack or create this thread someone else did, read the first post for a hint. No where do I say not to wear a uniform on either thread either. What I was addressing was a particular group of people who either should not be wearing a uniform because they are no longer registered scouters but still come to events in a uniform looking like a army general with every patch and knot in creation sewn on and trying to tell the volunteers what and how to do things. The second group who serve on occassion in the background as a committee member and feel the need to go around in a uniform anyway, and yes they can do it if they want but what purpose does it really serve, not the youth thats for sure so it must be self serving. The third group who feels the need to have many multiple uniforms for every miniscule task they perform, SM, OA advisor, committee member,district position,activity chair, ad naseum. In some cases it is necessary to have more than one uniform, however in many more cases it is all about ego and showing off to others.

And then there are some scouters in this forum that can't seem to read, grasp or understand what has been posted by others. Thick- Thicker- Iliterate, lol.

Dense- Denser- Beyond words!

shortridge My posts speak plainly enough and taking one line out of context does not change that fact. The committee member, for one, does not need to wear a uniform to perform their behind the scenes functions, and while they can technically wear one because there is a "PATCH" for the position, the uniform in this case is nothing more than a self ego booster for attending an adult meeting once a month, not even working with the kids. Why on earth does that person need to wear a uniform except to call attention to themselves.

BDPT I NEVER SAID NOT TO WEAR A UNIFORM!!!! At least read the posts before you criticize with innaccurate statements okay. what I said is that you do not need to have a seperate uniform for EVERY job you do in the BSA, and that some jobs do not even require one, such as a committee member for one or an executive board member for another. However there are those scouters who have a large collection of different uniforms 4-5 or more for jobs they don't even do anymore and love to show them off at every scouting function possible, these are those scouters who have never grown up and are living their childhood scouting fantasies as an adult. So I suggest you reread all the posts on this thread again and just maybe you might get it.

Al just because BSA makes a patch doesn't make it a reason to wear a uniform, and I never said committee members are not hardworking just that a uniform isn't really necessary for that position, except for those who want to show off their ego's. Eagle92, as a former DE I am really surprised that you feel the way you do. There were several people in my former council who were ex commissioners, ex committee members, ex district members who had not been actively involved for years and they still showed up at events in full uniform criticizing and correcting volunteers, until I reminded them that since they were no longer registered scouters they were not entitled to wear the uniform any longer. Off they stormed swearing under their breath. This is what I mean about some adults who never grow up and these are the same kind of adult scouters who feel they need a myriad of uniforms to show off. There is a big difference between need and necessary.

shortridge I agree with you that professional scouters at all levels should only wear a field uniform when doing field activities jamborees,camps, camporees, day camp etc. The pro scouters main job is to sell scouting to the community, businesses, and agencies in order to gain financial support and to have these businessmen volunteer their time and talents to the district and council, to that purpose the pro has an appropriate dress uniform and he would look pretty silly going to talk to a corporate executive wearing a field uniform with shorts and a necker wouldn't he. The same can be said for COR, IH, and committee members what is their job, to recruit leaders and to support smoothly running scout units, why do you need a field uniform for that? Even if some go on outings why do they need to wear a uniform, what purpose does it serve they are not providing a program to the boys? To those who insist that they must have a different uniform for every single activity they perform in scouting, be my guest, ego is sure not in short supply among some scouters, lol.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

SR540, I have completed two WB courses and every class a SM,CM and Crew Advisor can take including Powderhorn, and have been on staff several times teaching them. Training is important and necessary for every leader in scouting in order to lead a great program. Some of Kudu's objections, when you get past all the arguments, concerning certain training are valid ones. We as scouters and trainers should never be so afraid, arrogant and closed minded to believe there is only one way to train people. Yes Kudu is very passionate about the patrol method as defined by Hillcourt and whats wrong with that? Bill learned from BP himself and probably had better insight to what the true vision of scouting was to be, certainly much more so than the current CSE does. When Mazzuca stated that, "scouting is more than learning to live in the woods and sleep in a tent", I think he misses the point that scouting is indeed first and foremost an outdoor experience and to deny that is denying true scouting. The less we emphasize outdoor skills in scouting the more likely it is that scouting will indeed continue to shrink in numbers and influence.

I understand you might have more than one position but if you are a SM and a webelos leader which do you think is your primary position, hint usually it si the highest ranking one. Those scouters serving in 3 or more positions I really question their effectiveness or efficency, I think they are in it more for self satisfaction than anything else especially the youth. As far as how many uniforms you need to use some common sense, especially with how much they cost. But with everything others have said it does not change the fact that you still have only one primary position, and maybe one or two secondary ones. So the bottom line is wear what you are not what you think you should be, a cub scout pack would have no problem seeing their webelos leader wearing his SM uniform to pack events. Those of you who want to wear a myriad of uniforms for secondary positions, most of them performed only a handful of times during the year are trying to do nothing but show off or trying to impress others and is that what being an adult scouter is supposed to be about? Why does a Chartering Rep or Committee Member even need to wear a uniform anyway, because he can? Most that do it is for ego boosting since they have no direct contact with the boys anyway, but it really is plain silly.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

shortridge, It really isn't that difficult to understand, when I was a DE I wore a DE uniform with the DE insignia and silver loops because that was my primary position even though I was also a webelos leader, OA staff advisor, and JLT advisor. I did not have seperate uniforms for these positions because they were not my primary registered positions. The same is true for Venturing or OA the youth are members of a crew or troop and that is their primary registered position, if elected to VOA or OA lodge officer their primary position does not change. Wishful thinking or desires by volunteers does not change these facts. Case in point a good friend of mine and long time scouter was selected to help out at National office on a 3-4 month project, while there he bought some gold loops and a National staff badge, the first day he wore them the National people told him that he was not a National staff person and not entitled to wear that patch and gold loops, rather he was a temporary consultant. So you see just because it may walk like a duck and quack like a duck doesn't make it a duck.

OGE In most councils less than 10% of the scouters ever step foot in a roundtable. That is why it is crucial that their training be intense and complete and sticks with them the first time around cuz it is doubtful you will ever see them again at another training, which is sad. Kudu- I for one will miss your input.

Scoutldr hit the mark in his post you wear the loops for the PRIMARY position you are registered,period. OA lodge chief and VOA, etc. are elected TEMPORARY positions and do not entitle you to wear silver or have special seperate uniforms for each position, that even holds true with summer camp staff. Those are the facts what you would like to see or what a particular council may do has no relevance to or changes those regulations.

Eamonn you must be a big fan of Don Quixote because you seem to love constantly trying to tilt at windmills, lol. Do you have any idea who really owns every council in the BSA, its not the volunteers, its National plain and simple, if the local councils start to fold up due to lack of financial support eventually National will fail as well it is a total symbiotic relationship. Are you also aware that National assesses an amount each year from every council, and where do you think that money comes from? Hint: FOS, but you knew that didn't you Eamonn. So for someone so experienced with the BSA in high level positions I do not understand why this is such a surprise to you. The BSA National office is nothing more than a conglomerate of little corporations(councils) working under the directions of the National office and covered under their umbrella. And if the councils started to rapidly fold up in greater numbers due to lack of financial support you are damned right that National would have to step in and pick up the pieces, otherwise National would just be a shell with no substance but you already knew that,didn't you.

Twocub Except for the Catholic Church, by their incorrect and narrow definition, a marriage is not a rite of the church. A minister is only one of several legal authorities, judge, justice of the peace, etc., who can perform the pronouncement of husband and wife which is considered more of a legality than anything else. Heck someone can get legally ordained on line these days in five minutes and perform ceremonies. On topic, I for one have never seen a boys troop not participate in an Eagle COH, there is no hard and fast rule except one that was in exsistence when I was a DE years ago told to us in training at National. The opening and closing of an Eagle COH is technically supposed to be done by a representative of the council, an SE, DE, Council, Dist or Unit Commissioner who are considered duly appointed representatives of the National office, since this rank is the only scout rank approved at the National level. This rule is rarely enforced but it is still there.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Prairie I doubt that most of the upper eschelon at National,regional, and even local councils could survive any high adventure trek,lol, but it is a great idea. Gern & desertrat77 enlighten me please, who is Mike Rowe?