BadenP

Pro scouters can qualify for a number of awards within the profession, a couple already have been mentioned, which volunteers can not qualify for. IMO, DE's should not be able to qualify for DAM's or other volunteer awards while still in the profession, even if they are also volunteering, since in my mind it detracts from the efforts of the volunteers in your district. When I was a DE I was also a volunteer Webelos Leader for three years in my church's pack and I never applied for or allowed myself to be nominated for any awards because it just didn't seem right, and IMO would detract from my main focus/purpose in the district.

SP Anytime an organization you are a member of asks you for a donation thats fine, but when they use you to solicit donations from strangers or even friends that is just using your goodwill to line their pockets and then they reward you with a knot for your uniform. To me that just cheapens the value of the whole scheme. It also states to "solicit funds from two or more other alumni", that means more than just asking it means getting MONEY. Anyway you want to view this it still is just IMO another money raising scam on the part of National disguised as an award/recognition program, you get two guys, then they get four guys etc, etc, in financial circles that is called a Pyramid Scheme.

Yea it looks like just another National scheme to raise more money: "Solicit FOS contributions from at least two other Alumni." "Get at least two former scouts/scouters to register as Alumni." It is the same old scam for MONEY and MEMBERS and your reward is a little cloth knot, Mazzuca is at it again and shows there is no dignity left at National anymore I guess.

bnelon Do those unauthorized activities putting the organization and its insurance in jeopardy include laser tag, which is inclued in G2SS as an UNAUTHORIZED activity? Time for National to get a reality check as to what really should be unauthorized, don't you think?(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Eagle 707 Look at who is doing the insults now, listen read the title of this thread again the OP is using this award as an open invitation to all "geeks and nerds" that scouting has now made accomodations altering their program to bring them into scouting. On that premise alone your criticisms fall apart. Second Mazzuca is very relevant to this thread as he is at the helm of this ongoing shift in the scouting program. Thirdly you being new here I have no idea how extensive your scouter experience truly is but from your comments I am guessing fairly limited and uninformed.

Eagle707 You obviously haven't read my posts here very throughly I have said twice here that I have no problem with science in the BSA program. What I do object to is the evergrowing movement away from scoutings foundation in a pretty lame attempt to attract boys to scouting that really have no interest in being scouts. The same thing can be said with the hispanic cub soccer program, all of these are attempts by the Mazzuca team at National to totally modify the BSA into some sort of YMCA type of organization. All of your rather innaccurate and obtuse observations do not change those facts.

SP The two so called methods of yours are nothing more than the Golden Rule, not a public proclamation of your faith. As I said in my first post rarely can that which acts to divide us bring us together, the sad reality of religions that were created by humankind.

krier Seattles post speaks loads why the sacred and the secular have such a hard time working in harmony is due to basic human misunderstanding of what a interfaith celebration is and what it is supposed to offer the participants. It is not supposed to be reading prayers, or Bible passages, or the Koran or any other instrument unique to one faith. Second, it is not a true religious service intended to replace the normal religious services the participants attend. An interfaith celebration is the recognition of a higher being or force at work in the world through various sources like music, literature,poetry, silent meditation, being in nature or listening to the sounds of nature. It is not the promotion of one religion over another or using pieces of anothers faith service/tradition which will bring negative responses like SP's. A troop and crew can use the time listening to the resources mentioned earlier to reflect on their own understanding of what it means to be reverent to them, and their own interpretation of what "God" truly is. Too many so called ecumenical services I have witnessed have been nothing more than a self promoting Christian scripture reading with Christian prayers and hymns, and that is NOT what an ecumenical service is supposed to be.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I did not say that the scouting should not have science included in the program because it does in Cubs and Boy Scouts, however the focus of the original scouting program was the outdoors and ever since the 1970's we have been moving further and further away from that focus. Now we have a CSE, who I have known and worked for stating that camping and the outdoors is not important to scouting anymore and is moving the program even further away from the outdoor experience. Any of you "nerd/geek" scouts who really think that the outdoors should not be the focus of the BSA than IMO you are not really true scouts. Adam, Baden Powell believed and taught that boys learned to be good citizens and leaders through the outdoor experiences he created, NOT in front of a computer. Now we are seeing a shift in the BSA back to the disasterous urban scouting of the 1970's led by a CSE whose only motivation is MONEY and MEMBERSHIP and that will only continue the serious decline in BSA membership we have been seeing. Mazzuca IMO is a very POOR EXAMPLE of a person holding the highest office in the BSA and I am convinced it will take the BSA decades to recover from his administration, which hopefully will end soon as he is long overdue for retirement.

Oak Tree I hope that you understand that the National BSA President is more of an honorary title with no real authority. It allows the BSA to select a mover and shaker and add their name/clout to the BSA, of course after making a suitable large contribution to the organization.

Eisley To answer your post G2SS is NOT, I repeat NOT more than just a guide. The BSA is not a law enforcement entity. If your troop goes to play laser tag in their uniforms National is not going to send out their G2SS police to arrest you or write you a citation are they? A pack in my district recently did that exact thing, a leader in a different pack, who was present at the time, complained to the SE about what he saw. There was nothing said or written to the pack leaders by either council or National. Again these are guidelines, and unless there is a case of child endangerment or extensive property damage or something equally serious nothing is going to be said or done by the BSA.

Adam You just plain missed the point, the BSA mission is not to create scientists, that is for our school systems. It is fine to have scouts interested in science and we have MB's, etc. to address those needs. The BSA has its own special focus and the more we veer away from that focus the weaker the program becomes replacing scoutcraft skills with robotics or computers as a primary focus the organization ceases to be the boy scouts. Nerd/Geek types really can use the boy scout program to learn that the world does not revolve around a computer or a lab and to help them grow into well rounded leaders. As far as the astronauts are concerned, a few years back I got to meet and talk with Buzz Aldrin on his book signing tour for about half an hour, and I can tell you he is anything but a nerd as are most of our astronauts who risk their lives everytime they take off into space. So that argument of yours is also invalid.

Personally I think there is a world of difference between going on a 20 mile hike in a wilderness area and going to jamboree, especially for adult leaders who spend most of jambo playing babysitter and looking around at exhibits.

Hey moose All I can say in reply is if your SE allows one individual, even if he does give extra moolah to the council, control training and program in your council then you got a lot bigger problem than you think. Time for you guys to get a new SE with some backbone to begin with. This double version of NYLT does a great disservice to your youth and your council.

SP The point you make is also true of ANY CO sponsoring a scout unit that has their own agenda. As far as the other argument here, spiritual and secular matters rarely if ever coexsist in peaceful harmony.

Bart brings up a good point about these awards, with the almost total devastation of the outdoor program in boy scouts and in leader training by National and the continuing alarming decline in troops and boy scout numbers these awards may indeed attract all the "nerds/geeks" out there into joining boy scouts since they will never have to camp out in the woods. The question is will there be enough nerds coming in to replace all those boy scouts who are leaving, and will the boy scout program that remains even be fit to be called Boy Scouts? I rather doubt it.

The OP of this thread started this discussion with why certain PTA/PTO's in one area will no longer sponsor scout units due to legal liabilities to the CO if an accident or incident should be caused by that unit. It is NOT about religion in schools or who can rent a school building for a meeting or the religious stance of the BSA. Now the discussion has devolved into the old chicken and egg argument which is unprovable and unwinable and quite frankly has been hashed around in this forum too many times in the past. You know what happens if you keep poking a bull with a stick, eventually you are gonna get gored.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I always get a kick out of scouters who view the G2SS as some sort of Holy Grail of scouting,and that is somehow a universal document passed down from the ancients. The G2SS is simply a GUIDE as is in its title, a reference tool if a scout leader is somehow unsure how to handle a situation that may come up during a scouting event, and that is ALL it is. The mythos and authority that has been built up surrounding this publication is both very humorous and very sad. As our legal experts here have already stated in other threads local and state laws ALWAYS supercede anything printed in the G2SS.

To those of you who think the big money people are the BSA customers you are way off. Corporations and individuals who donate large sums, for the greater majority, are in it mainly for the write off and getting/buying some recognition as a great philanthropist, bottom line. They could give a rip about how the scouting program is delivered, or helping out a scout camp, unless they can get the camp or a building named after them. So don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. As far as scouting professionals acting like they are special I think that is mostly true of SE's and higher who view the council as their domain to control and mandate policies as they wish. DE's are at the bottom of the food chain of pro scouting and are treated as such by their higher ups, and forced to follow the mandates of those same individuals, even in violation of BSA policies. I have seen two really obnoxious DE's when I was a pro scouter, one got fired in their first year, and the other became a FD in another council so go figure. Bottom line, the BSA's primary customer is the CO, the local councils primary customer are the unit volunteers and youth.

EDGE= Extreme drudgery generating evil. That's for you Kudu, I am not a big fan of it either, of course we don't use it in Venturing.

OGE You speak words of wisdom about the use of school buildings and are 100% correct. SP IMO, Eamonn is one of the most down to earth and realistic scouters in this forum who I agree with most of the time, except about Venturing, lol, your criticism of his posts, if thats what is was, was totally inaccurate and uncalled for

In response to what Eamonn says ANY Venturing crew closely tied to a troop is a receipe for disaster. After nine years in working with a crew let me tell you what does work with that age group, suitable age appropriate fun and exciting activities as a crew is NOT an extension of boy scouts, if you want to attract members on an ongoing basis make your crew coed as it works well with this age group, let your youth officers really plan the events with you lending advice as needed, make sure your program is focused on some set goals, and high expectations set by the crew and yourself. Our crew goes on caravan trips to different cities and sites, mountain climbing, sailing, beach camping, etc,etc. We started with 10 youth and as of this week we are at 65 members so we must be doing something right. WHATEVER else you do DO NOT make or run your crew the same way you would a troop if you really want a dynamic crew. Venturing allows you creative freedom to create your own program rather than force your members to follow a set program like a troop does. So few venturing advisors seem to understand that and those are the crews that fail in a year or two. Venturing allows your teens to work on advancement awards if they wish and also allows them to decide on their own uniform or to have none. Your crew is what you allow it to be, you can let it be dynamic and watch it flourish or try to control every aspect and watch it perish, the choice is yours. Finally, our crew has never done a formal recruitment drive, word of mouth, crew members bringing friends, and some well placed posters, ads, and literature is all we have ever done and it has worked great. To paraphrase Barry: I love this Venturing stuff!(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Oak Tree From your post it sounds like the parents of your boys have way too much control of your program decisions. Even when we tried NSP's parents still got ticked off. The Boy Scout troop is about teaching the boy to be a leader and in all honesty the need to start growing up and not depending so much on mommy and daddy. That was the way when I was a boy scout, an ASM, and a SM. The parents need to understand that if they let the system work it will, and that it is time to let their boy begin to grow up and speak for himself. Some of the parents in my troop may have been reluctant to accept that, but they all eventually agreed and the process did work. Not to brag but the boys in my troop integrated faster in mixed patrols, advanced faster and really learned their scout skills, grew into leaders quicker, and most important stayed in the troop longer than any of the neighboring troops. I can't tell you how many times parents came up to me after their boy had been in the troop awhile and told me they could not believe the changes in their boy and how much fun he was having in the troop. If you challenge your parents to take a leap of faith and trust that their son will be the better for it you can usually shut down those helicopter parents. It is all a matter of setting up a level of trust at the onset.

SP & wakwib Don't think for one minute that the BSA is unaware of the potential goldmine with coed scouting and are not working on a plan right now to make it happen. As Campfire and Girl Scouts continue to greatly diminish in numbers where will these kids go? If Mazzucca can figure a way to get the idea past the LDS, giving them an exemption for example, just watch how fast coed scouting becomes a reality. Now a family will be able to sign all their kids up to one organization, fewer meeting nights, fewer rides to activities. Not to mention at least doubling membership and monetary contributions, it is no longer a matter of IF this will happen as much as WHEN it will happen.

Twocub I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. All the troops I have seen that have used NSP's are troops where the unit has been adult led and controlled, or had a new SM & ASM who really did not know what they were doing. IMO, NSP = weak youth leadership who are indecisive and uncommitted, an adult dominated program, and a higher dropout rates, especially for new scouts. Maybe your troop is different but I have never seen a strong and thriving troop who used NSP's.