BadenP

SR540 There you go putting words in my mouth I never said I disliked WB21C anywhere, what I did say was the majority of the content was irrelevant to the scouting program, to becoming a better scout leader, or preparing you to be able to develop a quality program for your troop. Putting it plain and simple for you WB21C is like giving someone a hammer and telling them to go saw a log with it, it is the wrong tool needed to get the job done. As far as the accident claim is concerned since the largest increase has been the last ten years, as long as WB21C has been around, all those leaders who were WB trained took WB21C where the management skills they learned did nothing to help them recognize and prevent these situations from occurring in the first place. Just think if these same leaders had received more in depth training in wilderness/woodcraft skills as part of WB, how many of these accidents would have been avoided. Addendum:go to,www.woodbadge.com, and read what the original purpose of BP's WB and what was covered in it ,and then on the same site click on the information for WB21C and read the current curriculum for yourself, that should answer all your questions.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

So SR540 based on your post WB21C is all that we have so lets all make the best of it because nobody will miss what they never had, well I disagree with you 100%. I think that if scouters really had an opportunity to compare the two different courses both in content, purpose, and motivation you would find an overwhelming majority selecting the former one. WB21C was forced down our throats by National for no other reason than to de-emphasize the outdoor part of the boy scout program significantly and replace it with a management workshop that does NOTHING to make a scouter become a better leader or to deliver a better quality program to their units, and there has been no report from National to prove otherwise. In fact the cases of boy scout troop incidents of accidents, deaths, and outdoor property damage has been on a sharp increase for the last 10 years, and the main reason usually given, POORLY TRAINED ADULT LEADERS, many of whom had been through WB21C, makes you kinda wonder.

I have to agree with OGE, it is not the WB beads that make you a better scouter, it the time you spend working with the youth and sharing your gifts with them. In truth WB is mostly a lot of window dressing that gives you just another fancy doodad to wear on your uniform.

NJ It is not a personal problem I have with Mazzuca as it was watching him put the council where I was a DE and he the SE be put into a severe financial debt crisis, to the point where all the councils assets had to eventually be sold to pay off the debt and the 75 year old council go under because of Mazzuca's cavalier management style. Now he is the head of the BSA and I just cringe to see what kind of damage he will do to the whole organization during his reign as CSE. Take the time and watch the video to see him talking out of both sides of his mouth.

SR540, We all know the old WB will not be back, at least as long as Mazzuca is CSE, but those of us who have been through both versions have some good insights as to what is no longer in the current version that might help scouters much more than the excessive management curriculum in the current version. You said about is it worth it, you answered yes, I would like to ask you based on what criteria, and please don't answer that it is because it is all we currently have available. I still feel that when Mazzuca is out of the picture and we get a competent CSE who truly understands the real nature of what scouting is all about you might just be surprised. If boy scouts continue to dwindle at the present rate then this whole discussion will become moot in less than a decade. Then what rah rah bull will Mazzuca pull on all of us, if he is even still around.

NJ You are right that it is all semantics with Mazzuca, who I think views himself as the new James West or Daniel Beard. Truth is Bob likes the feel of power as CSE and now he wants to shape the BSA into some kind of one size fits all program, ignoring much of what made Boy Scouts the great organization it once was. Listening to him it was mostly a lot of boasting of what he has accomplished, aka National, as CSE with very little sincerity or humilty in his words.

Hey Kudu was just wondering do you get a commission on every set of the old Hillcourt scoutmaster handbooks you get people to buy, lol. I hear what you are saying though, and sadly the old methods of training scoutmasters using BP and Hillcourts techniques are gone forever as is much of the original scout program. IMHO, the new WoodBadge does very little to make you a better scout leader, but regretably it is the only advanced training offered by the BSA. Is it worth the money or do you receive any special benefits completing the training, other than some new friendships, the answer is in reality NO, if you want to be totally honest. The earlier version of WoodBadge, IMO, was a much better program than WB21C is and it is my hope that someday the BSA will get a CSE with some real vision who will bring the program back more to its original priorities than the high tech, corporate management style crapola that is currently being pushed down our throats.

5years While Oaktree's idea has merit better find out first how this DE did last year on his money raising and numbers requirements, because if he surpassed his goals the SE will be very reluctant to get rid of him. On the other hand if he didn't make his goals then this incident will be the final straw in his goodbye package. A similiar case like this occured in my council when I was a new DE, the Sr. DE was a complete A-hole but he knew how to smooze the big money out of his district and he was always starting new units even in areas that already were saturated with units. His volunteers hated him but he didn't give a da** cuz he never went to any district events, short of a drive by. When they complained to the SE they were told that this guy was doing a fantastic job exceeding all his required tasks and that they would just have to learn to get along with him.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

OGE What makes you presume that? The CSE is way too busy traveling around the country and parts of the world to have time to review someone elses speech. However I did like Tom's speech much better as he seemed to have a much better understanding of what scouting is truly all about, unlike his boss Bob. The one remark the CSE made in his speech I enjoyed was when he said,"I wake up every morning and say to myself don't let me screw this up." Too late Bob you are well on your way.

One thing I first noticed is Bob did not even bother to wear the formal scouting professional uniform, like the CoL SE did, to a dinner meeting of one of the largest councils in the BSA. As the CSE he still hates wearing official BSA anything, as he did when he was the SE at the council I was a DE. Second his talk rambled on and on taking the credit for the 100th Anniversary, the new uniform, the new high tec MB's,blah, blah. Next he says he is on the road spending 252 nights last year in hotels. I wonder what his expense accout is like and how much he is costing the BSA with his continued PR trips, rather than spending time at National talking with the staff about what they can do to make scouting better. You might think he was running for office instead of the CSE of the BSA. IMO, he is still the same blowhard I knew twenty years ago and will probably be the first CSE to leave the BSA with a massive debt when he retires. With Mazzuca you need to read between the lines in his talks, it's all about him.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

acco Every year the boy scouts seem to get further and further away from traditional scoutcraft or outdoor skills, especially in the training of its leaders, thanks in large part to the "Mazzuca Plan". "Be familiar with the outdoors", can mean anything but not necessarily competent in teaching those skills to the youth. You can go sit in your own backyard and become "familiar with the outdoors." WB21C reminds me of the same logic, management style is the new buzzword for WB today, the sylabus is badly written and tedious, the trainers do an average to extremely poor job in delivery of the information, but if you want to be bored out of your mind or to catch up on your sleep then WB21C is for you. IOLS is also a poor substitute and that too has been so watered down with its generic approach to all programs. You would become better informed and more competent reading an old Scout Fieldbook.

This is a real dilemma in todays Scouting, is there any real value in WB21 as compared to the original WB? To those who never had the opportunity to take the original WB it is hard to describe the differences in the aims and purposes of each one. Now National dictating that any adult leader serving as SM or staff at Jamboree is now REQUIRED to have completed WB21 is just plain ludicrous. Having completed both WB classes I can tell you, compared to the original the new WB gives you a whole lot less of worthwhile information that you can really use or even need in your troop, IMO. National seems to be trying to flex its muscle and starting to dictate on a much greater scale how and what must be done on the local level, as far as type of required trainings, program content, etc. The sad part is that boy scout numbers as well as troop numbers still continue to drop, turnover of boy scout adult leaders is much quicker and more numerous than in the past. WB21C is not the answer for any of the problems the scouting program is currently experiencing, it is nothing more than a placebo that does nothing to correct the situation. Kudu you are very correct on so many of your points.

Another thing my old pack tried for the Dads one year was let them build their own cars and have their own race after the boys were all done. At stake was bragging rights and a tiny leftover plastic trophy from the prior year. Man you should have seen these guys you woulda thought they were competing for a million dollars with all these aerodynamically styled cars entered to race. The dad who won was so excited with his 99 cent trophy, and all the dads comparing and examining each others cars, exchanging tips, it was a riot.

I have taken both the old and current versions of WoodBadge, IMHO it would have been much more effective and much more simplier to have developed a new Scouter Leadership Principles course generic for all scouters instead of totally gutting and destroying the old version of WoodBadge. Now what the BSA is stuck with is a watered down leadership course intermixed with some boy scout window dressing that is IMO ineffectual and superficial in both content and delivery.

semperfi In my old pack we did not have a ACM so if and when the CM was absent without leave I was usually asked to step in, even though I was the WDL. Outside the parents of the boys in my den the other parents seem to think of me as the ACM even though I never officially was or desired to be.

Personally I think the Pinewood Derby has become the most devisive, political,and just plain nasty events in all of Cubbing. Why, because the adults, mainly Dads, have taken control leaving their cubs out of the picture entirely until race day. I have seen packs dissolve or break apart over the adult leaders and parents arguing and almost coming to blows thinking they were running a Nascar race instead of just letting the boys race their own cars. One way my old pack got around this was to have a two day build your car event, which only the boy was allowed to touch his car, except for the sawing where a select few adults were allowed to trim it down to what the CUB wanted. No outside nonregulation parts could be brought in and added to any car ,and no dad was allowed to participate in the cars construction or detailing. The cars were left at the pack site until race day and only after the derby was over was the boy allowed to take his car home. Amazingly all the adult arguments ended, no DQ cars, no cheating, and most of all the boys were allowed to just have fun and race their cars for prizes. Now over twenty years later that pack is still doing the pinewood derby the same way.

Stosh I really hear what you are saying and feeling and agree 100%. Listen since I decided to step down as crew Advisor and become the crew COR/CC I have had mixed feelings as well. Then I look at how I helped start a crew of 10 teens and watched it turn into a group of 60 excited,active Venturers. The new Advisor and Assoc. Advisors were part of that original group eight years ago,and I have watched them mature and grow into wonderfully caring and knowledgable leaders. They and the teens are always coercing me into going on trips and other activities with them, but now I can pick and choose which ones. I was asked to be the lead adult when the crew goes to the Seabase this summer which I am really looking forward to. Stosh, I just want to say to you that they can take your position away from you but they can never take away the influence you had on the boys and that they had on you. Hold on to those experiences, take comfort in them, and use them as a catalyst to continue in scouting in whatever new experience awaits you.

Stosh, ol man, I am truly sorry to hear the news of losing your troop. It sounds like certain factions had been planning this coup for a while now. What a rotten way to treat you after all your service to the boys. Time for you to move on and find another troop or crew that needs your help. Don't waste your time with anger or getting revenge, just kick the dust off your feet and be the bigger man, or you could always get yourself appointed District Advancement Chair and not pass any Eagles from that troop,lol, either way there are still more scouting adventures waiting for you out there. Good Luck!

Thomas54 And thats why a parent should NEVER be allowed to sign their own sons advancement in his troop EVER. I don't care what you "but the rules say" people have to say, it is improper, dishonest, and untrustworthy, period. It is also a main reason why the Eagle Award and Boy Scout program has lost so much credibility and respect in recent years. Mommy and Daddy do all the work, and when they sign off their own kid it is like putting in the fix, while the scout himself could care less and couldn't tie a square knot if his life depended on it. Meanwhile credible, well run troops take the fallout for these bumbling Eagle Mill troops, whose incompetent leaders produce incompetent scouts, since we all supposedly running the "same program".

Depends on your group, one size does not fit all, eh! As far as my Venturing crew is concerned the youth, guided by the crew officers, planned all events, trips, and fundraisers. We adult advisors were there for advising when they came to us with their plans, offer concerns and suggestions. The older crew members, who had obtained Silver or Ranger, for example help the younger ones with their requirements. The review board is run by the crew officers with two adult advisors to make sure all proper procedures are followed and requirements have been met. As a SM the PLC were mainly responsible for much of the program, but here because of the vast array of ages, the SM and ASM's gave a little more hands on guidance. We always tried to give the boys as much leeway as possible, especially if they had a well organized and thoughtout plan of action. In some cases when they got a little sloppy or lazy we adults would point out the weak points to them and offer advice on how to fine tune them. In all cases we adults made sure that the youth in charge never put the rest of the group into a dangerous, or hazardous, or potentially embarassing situation. In my over 25 years in scouting we never had any serious disaster occur. So I guess the so called boundaries that may come into play are unique to the makeup of each group and situations that come up.

I think most scouters who have not been through WoodBadge view it as a cult, and those of us who have been through it, some more than once, don't even realize that sometimes we act like we are a cult, especially the three and four beaders, lol.

In my district currently there is a Dist Commissioner and one Unit Comm, who is LDS and serves the LDS units, so in essence we have no UC's and the Key 3 and unit leaders seem just fine with the arrangement. Is that good or bad? The DComm and DE have tried unsuccessfully for three years to recruit UC's and to quote them, "nobody wants the position."

Maybe another factor for this large increase is as our friend Kudu constantly reminds us of is the "dumbing down" of the scouting program to the point that the Eagle today is equivalent to the current 2nd or 1st Class rank. While I don't think that this analysis is entirely true there are some very valid points to Kudu's argument that the Eagle of fifty years ago versus a current Eagle scout was better prepared and more knowledgeable in both scoutcraft and leadership skills. So many Eagles today of whom I know, or have sat on their EBOR's are the victims of their "helicopter" parents who push and harrass their boys all the way ,many of whom could care less about being an Eagle.

Seattle I really don't understand why you are having such trouble grasping this concept. The BSA contracts with the Charter Organization NOT with the unit or its leaders. Your unit has no legal basis or status on its own but ONLY under the charter with the CO with whom the BSA creates this legally binding relationship. That is why on your charter it specifically states that it is granted to, Church XYZ, or American Legion Post 123 for Pack XXX. The direct relationship is with the CO, not the unit, and why only the COR has the legal authority to vote, instead of the unit leaders, at the council executive meetings. That is also why a CO can legally fold a unit under their charter, or dismiss its leaders, or seize their assets. So in reality like it or not all unit scout leaders are indeed agents or affiliates of their Charter Organization without whom they can not legally function as far as the BSA is concerned.

SP "Then I don't see that the unit leaders owe the CO the loyalty that has been suggested." Seattle, then you don't really understand how the BSA works very well either. Without a CO your unit can not exsist legally within the BSA, thats the main point. I agree that mending fences is a worthwhile goal of the leaders in this case, if they can not come to an agreement then the CO is required to step in and take action. This can include cutting their relationship with one or both units forcing them to find a new CO or to disband entirely. Bottom line, the CO is the one taking the risk and putting themselves on the line, as we have seen in the case of the dead Florida scout, it is their reputation on the line as the legal owner of the units if a unit does damage or conducts themselves in an unscoutlike way. So you do owe your CO your complete loyalty as well as making sure you have a solid working relationship with them. You are always free to find another CO, but the one you have you owe the units loyalty completely. Case in point, there was a cub pack who bounced around from CO to CO in town until the leaders got the reputation of being so dishonest and disreputable that no church or organization would touch them. The leaders of the pack tried to set themselves up as their own new CO which the unit and district commissioners brought to the attention of the SE and council commissioner. The SE met with the on record CO who told him what these leaders had done and why they would no longer be their CO. Under the charter agreement rules this CO with the support of the SE and council seized all the packs assets, and dismissed these dishonest leaders. The DE had a parents night, explained what had occured and recruited new leaders, gave the pack a new unit number and a new start, and now they are prospering. Those prior leaders were charged with embezzlement, theft, property damage, endangering youth, and other assorted charges. Bottom line- Make sure you have a good working relationship with your CO, include them in your activities, and make sure your COR is made to feel a welcome part of your unit, you owe them that much, and they owe you their full support as well.