BadenP

I guess the times have really changed, Webelos were always considered to be more mature and independent from the rest of the pack, preparing to become boy scouts. As a WDL years ago none of the parents ever wanted to stick around for the den meetings. At the end of the year we would do a Webelos Family Camping trip and that was always well attended. Now it seems the parents are always in the way right up through boys scouts, COH, ECOH, OA Ordeal, etc afraid that their "baby" might get hurt and compounded by the poorly thought out wording in the G2SS. No wonder Kudu calls the scouting program of today "CupCake Scouts of America", he may not be too far off.

acco Look at it this way this is the first real victory from the mess in Afganistan and Iraq that has dragged on for a decade now. There was celebration in the US and Europe when Hitler was killed why should this be any different, it's all a matter of perspective.

WWW Yea it is obvious your "business post" was probably atypical of Exploring in your day. The reason Venturing has had a problem in some areas is because too many advisors are former SM's who run the crew the exact same as they did their troop and that runs contrary to the intent and focus of the program. I think the earlier training of advisors from 1998-2003 were also partly to blame. Where Venturing is done CORRECTLY it is doing well, such as in my council. My crew from the start knew what they wanted their specialization to be, however they did not exclude any activities outside that specialization from their program if the interest was there. Which is why,IMO, our crew has had tremendous success and growth over the years. As far as the oath is concerned, we don't recite it that often,unlike boy scouts, and I agree some of the wording is ackward. However it has no effect on the quality and fun that our program provides older teens, male and female, who need some focus in their lives and provides it in a fun social setting.

Speaking from my own experiences with the cubs program it is not so much it is too long as it is to repetitive. I do not agree with the den leaders following the boys through the ranks as it usually winds up becoming the same old-same old for five years. The boys need to have variety of leadership and even more challenging experiences as they mature. I agree with the idea of more emphasis on outdoor experiences suitable to the age group, and personally I would like to see the Webelos return to a one year program as it was originally created to be. WWW your point about Venturing/Exploring I think is based solely on your own prejudice, as I know many crews with a solid outdoor program, including my crew. The reality is that by the time a boy turns 15 he is usually burned out by boy scouts, and quits or is searching for something more mature instead of hanging out with 11 & 12 year olds. Venturing gives him those opportunities and is a much better solution than losing him altogether.Personally I think Venturing could become a real asset in breathing some new life and leadership back into the OA. There are many outdoor crews out there who have extensive training and experiences in the outdoors and who could share them with younger scouts.

Cross Sorry to say this but your objections are too lttle and too late. If this kid was such a problem as you say then this should have been dealt with a long time ago starting with holding up his Life and maybe Star ranks until he straightend himself out. As the CC you should have been in closer contact with the SM on a regular basis, and especially when all these problems went down, but you did not do that, now frankly it is too late. You can refuse to sign but without the support of the SM and DAC it will be a meaningless and futile gesture.

Or to follow up on Barry's post, Let God find the boy and reach into his heart and allow that boy to receive his own path and blessing. It amazes me how many adults want to cram or forcefeed religion down a young persons throat, usually because that is the way it was done to them. Studies have shown that between the ages of 12-18 all young people go through a crisis of faith/belief and serious doubts about God, yet through life experiences and maturity develops their own faithwalk that is individually unique to each one. No forcefeeding of a particular doctrine or tradition brings a child closer to God, but instead may actually drive them away. If we adults would only allow our youth to discover their own path to faith by providing them the unique opportunities and gentle guidance that programs like scouting can provide then it has been my experience as both a scout leader and a minister that "God" will do the rest.

Beavah I agree with you 100% in your assessment of Osama, but Frank also brings up a valid point, with the killing of BinLaden we have also created a new "martyr" for all those radical extremists who would do us harm and lit the fire under them to action. I listened to the Islamic clerics who were upset that Osama's burial at sea was a violation of Islamic religious law and an insult to all of Islam by the USA. This was followed by the angry protests in Libya over the killing of Khadafhi's son and grandchildren, and demanding retribution and wondered to myself when and if this killing will truly ever end.

I have to concur with the other posters who have stated that, It is NOT the SM's responsibility to question, challenge, or put pressure on any boy to determine if he is indeed a "true Believer" (sarcasm intended), that is up to his parents. You can review the 12th point of the scout law, read what it states but NOT add your own interpretation of its meaning. The DRP, which IMO should be dropped, should never be used as a criteria for the Eagle Award/Rank or whether or not a boy is a "good citizen". What constitutes "recognizing an obligation to a nonsectarian God", and what defines "reverent" is an individual family matter that should never be decided by a EBOR committee. It is the same thing as a company asking a potential employee are they a Christian or are they an atheist, it is inappropriate and illegal. You tell me what scouter or committee of scouters is truly qualified to determine a boys true spirituality or really capable of defining an all inclusive "God"? The answer is NONE.

Calico I never said "might" in my post, as I was referring to the combined resources,aka intelligence, etc of the our own and allied countries in bringing him down that he somehow managed to allude for so long.

OGE I think your comparison is a little one sided and inaccurate. You know a lot of people have worked with Habitat for Humanity which is a great organization but does not make someone a candidate for sainthood. Reagan was in his eighties when he left the Presidency, well liked by both Republicans and Democrats and highly sought out for public speaking events, Carter frankly was looked upon as a failure as president for a number of reasons, the hostage crisis, the failed economy, a corrupt cabinet, the worst since President Grant, and lets not forget the killer rabbit attack. The sad truth after one term in office the American people just wanted to forget about Carter, and if not for his work with Habitat for Humanity would have slipped away into obscurity

SMT It could also mean this boy has had some bad experiences at his church, with a minister, church staff, etc, and that the boy equates God and this church as one in the same. I agree at his age he is still grasping with his own spirituality and vision of God, and needs time to mature and explore these things more fully. As a SM I once had boy in my troop who never went to church, neither did his parents, or professed any belief in "God". He went on his first ever camping trip with the troop and the next morning at breakfast came up to me and told me how he had gotten up before sunrise went down to the river and watched the sun come up and how "really cool" it was. Then he told me that he saw God in the sunrise and now it all made sense to him. I just smiled at him and told him that was terrific. So give that boy in your troop a chance to experience God in his own way and time.

While it is indeed great news that Osama is dead unfortunately some other terrorist has probably already stepped in to take his place and continue the war of terror. Interesting note that they reportedly buried Osama at sea since his body would be a magnet for a terrorist attack. Another point while we did get him in the end it took all the might of the major superpowers ten years to eliminate him. Our biggest mistake now would be to underestimate the tenacity of Al Queida.

eisley There are only two ways a regime like NK is defeated first in a war where the leadership is taken out permanently or the people themselves revolt and overthrow the regime. Our mistake in Korea was the establishment of the DMZ and calling the war over leaving a country split in two solely for political reasons. If we had removed all our troops at the end of the war the country would have eventually reunited and KimJong could have never ceased control in the first place. Now we have an unwinable mess and part of a country prospering while the north is suffering in dire poverty and a barrier and two armies keeping the country split. About the only thing that would help now is a massive black ops mission to take out Jong and all his cronies, wipe out all their missles and weaponry, and letting the country heal old wounds and reunite. The UN and the USA both failed in their mission in Korea and failed the people of Korea. We almost did the same thing again in Vietnam, but we were forced out, and look at that country today prosperous and a top tourist destination.

short and eagle In Ox's first sentence, second paragraph he says, "The first thing that had changed was that the professionals, that is DE's, as part of their resume had to show a complete understanding and involvement with all aspects of the program." which I took to mean the OA lodge program,since DE's have always been required to have an understanding of all aspects of the scouting program and are trained in that regard.

eisley While you are welcome to your opinion about Carter nothing in the facts you present support that opinion. I'd say Calico and Eagle have pretty much put your hate thread out of commission.

Old Ox First you need to get your facts straight about professional scouters and the OA,as a former DE I can tell you there is NO requirement that any professional must be involved or active with their lodge in any way, never has been. As a DE my SE appointed me as staff advisor to the lodge, which had shrunk to four boys,all in the same district and basically inactive, no elections or events and with an inactive lodge advisor. My job was to bring the lodge back to life. I and some key youth and adults organized elections, the first one in over a decade, and within a year the lodge had new officers, adult advisors and an active membership of over 75 youth. As far as women in the OA it was inevitable that as women were allowed to become SM's and ASM's that the OA would change to accomodate them, and it has. The idea of coed scouting has been frequently debated here, but truth is that it is only a matter of when and not if, and I tell you you will see it in your lifetime. The CSE supports coed scouting, and look at the next Jamboree in 2013 will include Venturing meaning girls will be present on a much larger scale. I brought my coed crew to the 2010 Jamboree as visitors and we saw many Venturing females present, 2013 will be even bigger. So yes you will see it happen in your lifetime, because it is already beginning to take shape.

You can just hear the brain cells disappearing in all the birthers who continue to argue over yet another lost cause for their side, lol. The Republic theme for the 2012 election could easily be "Although we are usually wrong we will still argue until even we do not understand what the heck we are talking about!" A perfect slogan for the Trump as well.

It amazes me how much these same birthers still want to argue this now settled argument with inane ideas about clarifying the Constitution and other such nonsense. You people need to give it up already as you continue to make yourselves look even more foolish and just plain ignorant about your understanding of what it truly means to be an American.

They released it to shut up once and for all Trump and other hayseeds like him and to show just how desperate and pathetic the right wing has truly become in this country. The have no plans to improve the economy so instead they launch a baseless attack to try to draw attention away from their own ignorance.

BS 87 Beavah did a very good job explaining why your premise was incorrect. Also you need to understand that before anyone is offered or elected to a federal position with the requirement for a security clearance they are given a very thorough security background investigation where ANY anomalies, such as citizenship, is determined and dealt with very quickly. As a former federal agent with both top secret and SCI clearances I can tell you firsthand that no stone is left unturned in a persons background, everything is checked and rechecked, especially your citizenship. There is virtually no chance of someone becoming President if there truly was any discrepancy with their citizenship.

BS87 Give it up already, you are just plain WRONG, and are starting to sound like a broken record. Your interpretation of the Constitution does not agree with all the federal legal experts who determined that Obama was eligible during his vetting process to be President. Sorry to say you are sounding as pathetic as Trump who is now trying to keep a low profile. Time to stop tilting at windmills and get on with your life.

pack This whole issue is now moot with the release of Obamas birth certificate and the fact that those who were dumb enough to believe idiots like Trump do deserve to be chastized for their vile attacks based on FALSE information. Yes Trump deserves all the criticism he is now going to receive and he can kiss the chance ever even being considered for president up in flames forever. Don't you and others here know that this issue was investigated years ago when Obama was just being considered as a potential candidate for the Senate, and again for president. No one gets elected to federal office these days without first being thoroughly vetted. Wake up you Birthers to reality and not the fantasy worlds you live in.

To all you poor misguided dupes who allowed Trump steer you down his pathetic little smear campaign, you guys need to get better informed instead of sitting there with egg on your face. Your unfounded and pathetic smears of the POTUS and this issue leave you all looking sad and pathetic now that this issue is finally put to rest.

As long as you allow parents to be involved in the PWD in any way other than pure spectators you will never have a simpler, kinder or gentler event, that is just the sad truth. Let the boys and ONLY the boys ready and race their own cars, warn the parents upfront that if they interfere in any way their boy will be disqualified, and the decision of the judge is FINAL then maybe you stand a chance of your PWD going fairly smoothly. The boys in the pack will thank you at the next meeting.

Bart I have to go along with OGE and Mike F., these time condensed rush through requirements smacks of substandard teaching and learning. This is definitely not a one person job and I can tell you if you try to do it all alone you will fall flat on your face. Summer camp is supposed to be about having fun, trying new things, and maybe earn a MB or two along the way, it is NOT supposed to be a rank or badge factory. If your camp program is exciting, fun, and well planned you don't need a Trail to 1st Class mill.