BadenP

Gee Engineer where did you live anyway, sounds like the Twilight Zone to me, lol. The BSA was always open when I was a kid and we wore our uniforms all the time to special events, parades ,scoutaramas, etc.

Twocub After reading your post I do not see how you possibly can state that NSP's are working well for you? They seem to be causing you more problems than postives. IMO and experience, NSP's really cause you to lose more new scouts than any other single factor. In addition NSP's require the adults to become much more involved in what is supposed to be a boy led/run program.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Abel The BSA is just like any religious group or organization, there is the spiritual side and the institutional side. In the BSA the organization projects the image of providing youth with positive and fun experiences teaching them outdoor, leadership and citizenship skills. The institutional side, aka National and Council, are getting into trouble because most CSE's and SE's, like ministers, have got little to no business aptitude and wind up driving their organization into a financial hole. Look at all the downsizing National has done, closing down the regional offices and eliminating entire divisions, and how many councils have been closed after going into massive debt and selling off all their assets and still could not stay afloat. Fiscal mismanagement by the BSA executives has been growing on a massive scale in recent years. The councils that have survived are not in any great fiscal shape either but by selling off some of their assets manage to hold on, barely. If the average volunteer really knew the financial bottom line of their own council FOS contributions would dry up overnight. Council SE's can blame the recession all they want but they still are taking home $150,000 to $300,000 salaries each year, not to mention what the CSE makes.

Engineer I don't think that the BSA itself was a secret or closed organization, the OA maybe but not the basic BSA program. Some have in the past have branded the BSA as an organization for white middle class Protestant only boys which had some truth to it. Catholics and Jews were discouraged from joining early on for fear of taking the boys away from their own faith, and that camping trips violated the Sabbath and Sunday Mass obligations for these boys. Even in the early days of the BSA there were African American troops from poor rural areas but they still enjoyed being scouts. Maybe it is time for the OA to evolve its program from its early days and let their activities become more transparent to alleviate both parental and youth concerns. IMO the OA should be emphasizing more outdoor experiences unique to them and more service not only to camps but also to the community at large. Maybe it would be better to downplay the Indian dancing and ceremonies especially because when they are done poorly really insult the dignity of those cultures being portrayed. Native American woodcraft skills and their views on being in harmony with nature are the real values the OA should emphasis, as well as some real exciting outdoor activities open only to members.

To take another tack here as a former ASM and SM for two different troops NSP's never really worked well for us for the reasons expressed here and many others, we lost many of them in the first six months. When we converted to putting new boys into exsisting patrols they seemed to thrive and we retained them for years. The patrols took it upon themselves to get these new boys up to speed and advancing much quicker, and made them feel part of the troop much faster then when they were in NSP's. If any troop is having problems with NSP's I strongly suggest the alternative, based on my own successful experiences.

Brent I had to run outside to look and see if pigs were indeed flying because I find myself agreeing with you on a number of points in your posts. I too agree that Green Bar Bill was a key element in saving scouting from that disasterous experiment of the 1970's, unfortunately CSE Mazzuca seems to want to head us back in that direction. I too agree with holding your scouts to high standards, within their capabilities of achieving, since the schools and many parents seem to be letting that aspect of development slide by. I have had the fortunate experience/privilege of working with a troop of boys and their families who had absolutely nothing in the way of money, material goods, and self worth transform themselves into a troop of boy scouts performing community service in an area riddled with gangs and violence, develop confidence and self esteem in their own abilities to transform their community and themselves. Standing proudly in their scout shirts and neckers reciting the scout oath and law and really and truly living those words still gives me goosebumps. We scouters may approach the methods of scouting a little differently but our goals are still the same, to see our scouts grow into good adults and great leaders. (What's with the socks thing, lol?)

After reading all the posts here and after some reflection let me just add these points. First if I had never taken the prior WB course before WB21C I would probably would have a very different outlook. Second if the staff of my WB21C had been better prepared and competent in delivery of the curricula I probably would have felt differently about the course, especially since the staff in my first WB course were nothing short of phenomenal. I still wish there was more scoutcraft/patrol method experiences in WB21C but there isn't for reasons only National knows. Bottom line, talk to others who have taken WB21C in your council and find out how they felt about the quality of the staff, if they had a positive experience then go for it because if nothing else the friendships you make in WB will last a long long time. It is still my hope that some future CSE will see the vital importance of including more woodcraft/patrol experiences in the curricula and make those changes before the BSA loses the outdoor emphasis of the program all together. So yes go ahead and take WB21C because it is indeed a unique experience in scouting.

Singlemom Look I understand where you are coming from, but as others have said your sons experience is not typical and cetainly not acceptable. Before you give up entirely on scouting my suggestion is you both do a little troop shopping, meet the adult leaders and let your son meet and talk to the youth leaders and other scouts in the troop. Let your boy make the decision if you find a troop that is properly run and looks like they have a fun and exciting program to give it another try. Scouting is truly an experience that will last a lifetime, do not let one bad experience spoil that opportunity for your son.

sherm Yes I get your point and agree with you. It is amazing how language can be used and manipulated to say absolutely nothing that sounds so profound.

SR540 & Sherm IMO what Mazzuca is doing is NOT rebranding the BSA rather he is dismantling the basic heart, foundation, and core of the program and trying to replace it with some type of high tech, online oriented program that may initially attract some other kids but like any computer game they will eventually become bored with it. Lets make no mistake here people Mazzuca has stated repeatedly that the outdoor program is not important to the survival of the scouting program. So instead he can focus on programs developed for the hispanic culture exclusively, and what I call coach potato scouting or virtual scouting where eventually you will see boys get Eagle without ever getting off their ass. National doesn't care because it will bring in new membership and MONEY. As far as the OA is concerned I think it could prosper again with some minor tweaks and more emphasis on the lodge doing more high adventure camping than gets done in many troops today and could be that carrot that attracts more active members. The tapout and ordeal ceremonies need to be more refined and dignified instead of looking like some kids playing indians. Sloppy ceremonies=sloppy,unorganized lodges and that = Inactive members.

Some good postings here, my take is that there is no one size fits all for every troop in the BSA. The SM has to sometimes devise his own methods to move his troop to achieving the BSA methods of scouting. Some troops just seem to fall into place quickly while in others achieving the BSA ideal each step is a difficult journey. I have worked with dirt poor inner city troops and upper middle class suburban troops and while the end goal may be the same the time frame,and the way there IS very different. My feeling is that any troop trying their best to live the scout oath and law is a good troop no matter how many "methods" they have achieved or still have left to reach. No matter what some may have convinced themselves of it is not the uniform that makes the scout it is the boy himself. I was a ASM for a poor inner city troop years back where each boy really wanted to be in full uniform but all of them came from broken families with little to no income. So we started with getting some scout shirts from Goodwill and it took a couple of years to get them all one of their own, they shared eight used handbooks for 24 scouts, and used some really old camping equipment we had donated to the troop.These scouts started doing community service projects like cleaning gang graffitti, turning abandoned lots into playing fields and gardens with donations from local merchants. I would have put up this rag tag troop of boys against any troop in the country as living and exemplifying the true scouting spirit. Well some time later the troop was recognized by the leaders in the community and each boy received his own brand new uniform and handbook. That troop is still around and growing each year. So no Brent it is NOT the full uniform that makes a troop a good troop it is the spirit and willingness of those boys to be scouts and live the oath and law that make them good scouts and a great troop.

I think this all boils down to how well organized and active your council lodge truly is. In many cases I have witnessed lodges where all the decisions were made by a small handful of members and the rest either came on board or did not participate, unfortunately most chose the latter. As a youth member, adult member, and staff advisor to the OA I have watched the organization deteriorate over the years into a clique or club, the meaning of the Indian symbology has been lost, and the service aspect of the organization almost nonexsistant. I have heard many scouts elected to the OA make comments like "the OA is lame, dressing up like Indians is gay, and doing service projects is a real drag." Personally I think the OA needs some serious reworking done with its imagery, reputation, and purposes. As long as scouts view the OA as lame, gay,and a drag the organization will continue to flounder. Its reputation as an "Honor Society of Scouting" will not hold much credibility.

I have my old forest green Exploring garrison cap which I sometimes wear with my Venturing uniform, since I really do not like the Venturing hats, and people ask me about it all the time. So yeah wear that hat, it is always nice to show off the history of scouting with the uniform.

Hey G Welcome to Venturing, it is,IMO, the best youth program for older teens and it being coed adds even more to the group dynamic. You can structure your program anyway that suits the interests of the youth in your crew. I have been involved in Venturing for over nine years as an Advisor and now the crew CC/COR. Our crew is very active with outings small and large from an overnighter at a beach camp to a five day large ship cruise of the Carribbean at the Florida Sea Base. There are other Venturing leaders as well in this forum who are always willing to be a resource for you. So get ready for the time of your life.

Adam The thing most volunteers do not understand is that the council pros are there for two reasons and only two reasons MONEY and MEMBERSHIP and in that order. Yes some of us pros and former pros really cared about our districts and our volunteers and our units and their well being, but if that ever got in the way of MONEY we would be taken to task. If a pro ever got branded a troublemaker, like Sea Eagle's wife apparently was, they would disappear faster than a donut in a police station. For example when we DE's would go to training the first year at National we all met and became good friends, by the second year half of those people were gone, and by the third year less than 25% were left, after that you were lucky to hear from one or two of them. It is the nature of the beast or profession in Nationals eyes all DE's are expendable. After five years of long long hours, little pay, and no family life I had enough and reluctantly left a position I truly did enjoy. I watched another DE, a good friend, forced to take the blame for a huge screwup her SE was responsible for and she was eventually forced to leave. Apparently once you become a SE it is near impossible to be fired, National just moves them to another council when they get caught. That is why IMO Sea eagles wife is in a no win situation, even if she is let back in they will make her life miserable. So if she really loves scouting she would be much better off serving as a volunteer working directly with the youth, that is what I have done for all these years now and I never have regretted my decision.

sherm You might just be surprised to see the will the BSA will put into a plan if they forsee a large increase in membership and revenue, as well as the successes of other coed scout programs in the world. The GSA is not even a factor in the decision as their goals and programs are not not even close to the BSA. nolesrule Quoting that outdated and untrue analogy has absolutely no bearing as to why coed scouting would be a great success in this country as it is in so many others. Times and culture have changed greatly in the last 50 years. Your argument is no longer considered valid among the so called child experts of today. That is why coed scouting will be an inevitable result, especially if the BSA wants to continue to survive and prosper in the years to come. In fact it is already starting to become a reality if you just look around you.

One of the big problems with the OA is the "sash and dash" (basements quote) mentality of many of its members after the ordeal it is sayonara never to be seen again. My question is why, is the Indian emphasis too silly for most boys? are the camp work parties too much hard work or just plain dull for the members? I personally have not heard of any lodge being overwhelmed with too many members or not enough projects and events to work on, instead what I hear is that many lodges are struggling just to stay afloat. Is it no longer considered an honor to be an OA member among scouts?

I think most of you have missed the point here, most of the world scouting organizations are indeed coed and the BSA is behind step of with other scouting associations. This is not about the Girl Scouts being a good or bad program, the fact is over the years through coed Exploring and now coed Venturing and Sea Scouts girls have proven they can be just as effective scouts as boys, sometimes even better. Like it or not it is only a matter of time before scouting in the USA is totally coed, and it will be sooner than most of you think.

clemlaw A bit one sided in your interpretation I think. Prejudice usually starts out with poking fun at a particular group or person then it escalates into outright name calling or in this case about people of polish descent and then, as we have seen throughout history, actual physical violence against those groups for no reason. Look at WWII, Japanese, Italian,and German Americans who had lived here for generations were rounded off and put in prison camps. This topic about parents speaking other languages at a pack meeting is a justification for those who felt uncomfortable with it to make demands on these people to conform as to what THEY think is proper behavior and this is indeed a form of prejudice and intolerance anyway you look at it. Clemlaw, think of how many more people would contribute but are afraid to be ostracized by you and others who think the way you do. Time to take off your rose colored glasses and really look at the reality seen in the nature of some of these responses.

SR540 Sorry but your logic seems a little shaky at best. "No harm no foul" "The SM was right and the OA team was wrong" Maybe in your world SR540 but yelling at the boys or the OA adult was uncourteous to say the least, and the boys in the troop LOST the opportunity to find out about the OA because of a closed minded, tight assed, uniform police mentality SM. He chose the wrong place and the wrong time to display his holier than thou attitude and there was absolutely NO excuse for his conduct.

I guess the cost depends on your priorities. I for one do not consider Boys Life a necessary or worthwhile expense, especially since you can read it online for free. As far as a uniform and camping equipment is concerned, start him off with a used ones from ebay, uniform bank, etc. and if he sticks to it you can replace them with new ones over time. As far as the cost of trips are concerned, if your troop is taking off to Philmont or the Sea Base every year that does get expensive. I guess the answer is let him participate in as many activities as possible without breaking the bank. I think in these tough economic times troops need to rethink their budgets and expenditures and plan their events accordingly.

clemlaw You just need to reread many of the posts to verify my point. In all my years in scouting I have personally witnessed many cases of prejudice and intolerance and many of the posters, not all of them, in this thread just brought all those memories back.

I think Beavah is 100% correct in this matter, and I bet it will be a very very long time before that troop sees the OA again, what a loss for the boys in the troop. Rude behavior is always rude and never justifiable under any circumstances Brent, you being from the south should understand that better than anyone.

Well if this thread just proves one thing it is that the scouting world is full of intolerant, red neck, unfriendly, unkind, and unhelpful ethnocentric bigots. Those of you complaining and addingyour own ethnic slurs should be forced out of scouting since our kids should not have to be exposed to your own narrowmindiness. What a bunch of unscoutlike individuals, you ought to feel ashamed of yourselves.

OGE Sorry but you are comparing apples to oranges and your argument falls FLAT on its face. A swimmining test is a skill, which might be necessary to save that scouts life or anothers one day. A troop who wears scout shirts only versus one who wears scout shirt and pants makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in the kind of scouts they are or their skill levels in woodcraft, citizenship, or leadership. If you can't see the difference then I question what kind of scout leader you might be. Remember, as Ed(evmori) always has said, the uniform is not a required element in the scout program, it may be preferable but it is not a requirement to be a scout, according to BSA literature. IMO, a scout in at least a scout shirt is still identified by the average person as a member of the BSA, and I doubt anyone being helped or rescued by a scout (shirt only)is really going to give a dam* about the pants, do you?