BadenP

Sea Eagle Lisabob makes a good point about letting the EEOC in your area look into the matter as it will not cost you anything and they can assess what legal claim you may have, and we all know how expensive good lawyers are. Again though no matter what happens don't expect your wife to be welcomed back with open arms to professional scouting, I watched a good friend go through something similiar years back. Even though she won her case and was technically reinstated the only council they offered her was in a very rough area of New Jersey, since her prior position was no longer available. She told me the area looked like a war zone, gangs and graffitti all over the place, and a noticeable absence of a police presence. As a single woman she felt very threatened and declined the position. National told her they would keep her informed if another position opened up that suited her background, she still has never heard from them again. The good news is that she always always enjoyed gourmet cooking, she went to culinary school and is now an executive chef at a upscale dinner house. She is happy and told me that things worked out for the best in the end, even though she stillmisses her district, the people, and the kids.

nolesrule It's okay guy I have nothing against you or the whole bead thing. I made the one point I wanted to make about WB beads and I was done with this thread, it was you that wanted to make issue and create the tension in your own thread, not me. I forgive you though nolesrule and hold no grudge. Time to let sleeping dogs lie.

nolesrule Sometimes you can act like such a whining little wussy, like now. Have a nice evening. (This comment is intended to be a sarcastic reply to your post.)

scoutbox and nolesrule I think you both need to get a better understanding of the definition of trolling since you both misunderstand what it truly means. The title of this thread is "The Number of Beads Worn", then a discusiion insued concerning how to earn beads 3-4-5. My comment was purely to state that the number of beads are irrelevant to being a good scout leader plain and simple. Scoutbox you somehow took this as a personal attack on you which it was not, neither was it trolling because you were unclear as to your actual question and the thread was already heading in another direction. Scoutbox you need to get over yourself, to become so offended and angry over nothing is truly laughable, don't be so sensitive. How do you survive as a scout leader if you can't discuss something without becoming so enraged? nolesrule :as usual your comment was off topic and not worth replying to.

SeaEagleDad: Man things sure have changed in professional scouting since I was a DE. You have been given great advice about getting good legal help if she wants to continue in the profession. Now some personal inside information that any scouting pro or former pro can verify. In professional scouting the council Scout Executives have been and always probably will be a good old boys network, with some women part of the group. If your wife somehow manages to get the SE replaced the odds of her being reinstated are slim. If the BSA is forced to reinstate her because of a legal suit the new SE will probably make her job difficult to say the least, for example her evaluations not quite meeting expectations or added duties or quotas that are impossible to achieve, etc. My advice is to carefully consider all the perameters and consequences of any action she may take. Is it really worth the battle, the rumors, questioning of her character and abilities, etc. In her mind is this job really worth going through all of that? Whatever you two decide I wish her all the best, and to paraphrase the old saying "don't let the (professional scouting) bastards wear you down."

acco My expectations of WB21C were simple, to give me another opportunity to develop some long lasting relationships/friendships, which it did indeed do. The second was to give me the so called "latest" tools to deliver an even better program to my youth as well as the rationale of National in changing both the focus and direction of all the scouting programs. As far as the second expectation was concerned the class FAILED miserably. Some of the staff and all of the old timers on staff seem to have trouble with the then fairly new curricula, interpreting the meaning of certain sections and unable to answer questions from the group very effectively. The powerpoint presentations were not very informative and very disjointed, not to mention extremely dry. Most of the class I spoke with felt pretty much the same as I did. At the end of the first day three participants asked the director the process for getting a refund as they had had enough and were leaving and not coming back. This did cause some disharmony in the group, so the director called a special meeting of all the participants that night to allow people to vent their concerns. He said he was required to present the material exactly as in the syllabus in the manner he and the staff were trained to "meet National requirements". After the meeting some of us who had taken the former WoodBadge course, including the director and a few of his staff, sat around and talked about the differences between the two versions of WB and what we liked and disliked in each version of WB. Interestingly the next day the staff eased up quite a bit on the formality in presentation, even though the curricula remained the same dry dull and uninformative stuff. Brent: your last post was so mature, you are welcome to crawl back under your rock now.

If WB21C was ONLY about the personal contacts you develop then it would be a great course, because most of its contents are just fluff topics, personality quizzes, and management techniques. Like it or not you advocates of WB21C the course is very different from its predecessor, and very, very different from the original, whether you want to admit it or not. By all means if you want to take WB21C you should, as long as you do not expect it to make you a better scouter. If you are in it mainly for the beads then you will fit right in, earn your tartan necker and woggle and beads and try to justify your decision by harassing others into taking the same course while shoving your beads in their faces, even though you probably got very little out of it.

Lets not forget, how many beads you get determines how good a scouter, lol. Just like how many knots how many WB beads you have is irrelevant to how good a leader you are or how good a program. Any scouter in it for just the beads and/or the knots misses the whole point of scouting and should resign, because the only service they are truly giving is to themselves, not the youth or scouting.

Eagle2000wife It really is not as ominious as some are making it sound, it is more likely they want to see how hubby handles himself in an informal social gathering since many contacts he will be making will be in similiar informal settings. In the formal interview a candidate can look good on paper and know the right buzzwords to sound good, but they want to see his social interaction skills in action. You also will be assessed, rightly or wrongly, as to whether or not you will be a strong supporter and asset for your husband. As long as you both watch what you say, avoid politics and religion, and do not drink more than the SE you will do just fine and it will be a pleasant evening.

Eagle2000 It was when I was selected to be a DE. After being wined and dined at a fancy dinner establishment I wonder what would have happened if I said no, probably been stuck paying the bill, lol.

Wife of Eagle 2000 Speaking from personal experience when the family is invited to dinner with the council Exec et. al it means one thing they have decided to offer your hubby the job and this dinner gives them the opportunity to meet you and see what kind of family life you guys have. In my case it was myself and my fiancee and they offered me the job in the middle of dinner. Tell you husband congrats, but just be prepared to have him gone much of the time, including weekends, you will need to create a support group for yourself as it will put a strain on the marriage.

Scoutfish Nice try but like I said in my prior post until you complete the WB process yourself you are in NO position to comment, judge, or accuse, not to mention the lack of your own credibility. I think you will find that 99% of WB21C grads do not agree with your statements rather then base your entire opinion on comments by a few posters in here. You really do need to get a life.

SP After reading many of your own posts you calling Kudu sarcastic and rude is downright laughable. Look, Kudu is a strong advocate for traditional scouting as he and I and most other scouters have watched boy scouting continue to be watered down, over the last few decades at least, and replaced with what Kudu calls "double chin scouting". Much of what he tells is true and some scouters take it way too personally. Look when my boys were in boy scouts we looked and found a troop that ran with a very traditional what you would call old fashioned program. The boys worked their behinds off for every advancement, no shortcuts in this troop, and the outings put every one of their scout skills to the test. I watched them mature from spoiled kids to young men. They will tell you scouting was hard work, but they loved every part of it. One problem today is that most troops do not even try to challenge their boys who instead just skate through the ranks making little effort and learning even less. So if I have a choice between Kudu's concept of scouting vs Mazzuca's coach potato method of scouting it really is no contest is it. Look I may not agree with 100% of what Kudu says but he has a passion for scouting few leaders today do or even desire to understand. Mazzuca's vision of scouting is nothing more than a "highway to nowhere", and by the time the majority of scouters discover that for themselves it may be too late for the BSA to recover.

There might be a problem with service fees for using that app. Also with credit cards there are percentage fees that retailers are charged. Then there is a question of state sales tax since a credit card charge for a product would not be looked at as a donation, the credit card charge would have to state Donation to BSA instead of popcorn sales.

Scoutfish Until you have been through the current WB21C and completed your ticket you really are in no position to comment on anyone elses comments, or speak with any authority or credibility, unless you subscribe to the notion "Ignorance is bliss."

Twocub I think its time you just give it a rest, lol. Apparently you think anyone with a different opinion than your own is just plain wrong or to use your own word "Obtuse".

SR540 Sorry you are not even close, as usual, in your conclusions. I left the scouting profession because I got married, NOT because I hate the BSA, which was just a plain stupid comment on your part. Anyone who has been a scouting professional will tell you that it puts a severe strain on any marriage, many scouting pros are divorced or on a second or third marriage. After just shy of five years in the profession I wanted a normal family life, no more 80-90 hour workweeks, and was offered another great opportunity in another field, so I left. As far as WoodBadge is concerned, as I already stated, I took both versions completed both tickets and have two sets of beads. Try to get this straight SR540 this time, I told you that, IMO, WB21C was an inferior course compared to its predecessor. The information and experience was much less relevant or useful in application. That was not just my opinion but the majority of the members of the class, half of whom never completed their tickets. My position concerning WB21C is National missed the boat when they developed the curricula for the reasons stated earlier in this post. If you have a problem with that SR540, too bad. Now you can get off your self rightgeous high horse and go staff your WB21C clasees for those in your council who think it is worth all the time and money they will be investing. I will continue to advocate for revising WB21C to a form closer to its predecessor whether you like it or not.

Brent You are still a real piece of work, your nasty accusatory tone gives all southerners a bad name. I never claimed to be an expert on WB and aside from being a DE I have been a WDL, ACM, ASM, SM, Advisor, COR, CC over the last almost 30 years. I have been to and completed both WB and WB21C and have been asked to staff WB21C twice. So while I am no WB expert I do have a lot of experience to draw from, probably much more than your own. What I related was what is occuring in my own council over the last five years or more to try to show SR540 that WB21C is NOT being done exactly the same way in all councils as he seems to think. The curriculum is the same but thats about it, the SE here doesn't seem to care either as these good old boys are his main support in council. So Brent before you go running off at the mouth again at least get your facts straight, something you constantly seem to have trouble doing, or you can always crawl back under your rock .(This message has been edited by BadenP)

SR540 My "ACTUAL" experience is even more substantial than your own, trust me I know how things work although everything in your last post may be the way it works in your council. I have been through WB21C five years ago and I was so unimpressed with the poor curriculum and the quality of the mindless wonders the council called WB staff that when I was offered an opportunity to staff WB21C ,TWICE, I said NO both times. You can blow smoke all you want about how National is in control and monitoring all WB21C but it is those same morons at National that has resulted in the quality of WB slipping to the dismal state it currently is in. I am glad you are having such a wonderful time staffing WB21C, but IMO, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem, which is where I envision you are currently. I can tell from your post you already have developed the superior attititude of look at me I'm a WB staff director, the cult mentality. My answer to you is simply Woopee, so what. You are still no better a scouter than anyone else. Enjoy your little power trip.

SR540 You answered your own questions. First we all know regional is no more and even when it was around they pretty much rubberstamped councils requests. Since you state 30% new staff is a recommendation, guess what it is not necessary to follow it is there. As far as a council "not getting approval", come on lets get real here when have you ever heard of that happening? It is nice to live in your black and white scouting world SR540 but it has nothing to do with the reality of how scouting is run on either a local or National level, everyone in scouting knows that or should.

SR540 You and I both know councils never worry about the rules, this one holds WB with 18-24 participants, the staff are the same old ones. I have not heard of any rule stating 30% must be new staff, even if that were so my council would care less.

SP WOW, who is being arrogant now? Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but don't pretend that you can speak for Powell when you obviously can not. As far as WB21C is concerned I took the course, even though I had completed the prior version, and found it sorely lacking by comparison. I was even asked to staff the next class which I declined telling the director at that time that this was not the kind of training scoutmasters would find all that useful. In addition I added that with all the time and money that WB21C costs and requires of the volunteer the current version, IMO, was a poor investment of their resources. In my WB21C less than half the class ever completed their ticket, many wrote to the SE asking for a refund, which they never got. I have talked with many old time scouters, new scouters, scouting professionals across the country and most are in agreement about the lack of useful information and content. In my own council they only hold a WB course every two or three years due to a lack of participants, and when they do hold one it is never more than 50% filled. SP - when you smell smoke, see flames you don't have to be a firefighter to know you have a problem, well National has been smelling smoke and seeing flames for a while now concerning WB21C and have chosen to ignore the signs.

SP Gee now you claim to know about what Baden Powell intended with his WB for all of us, tell me do you talk to him regularly or are you more likely just giving your own opinion. I bet you did not even look at the website I referenced or if you did you seem to have missed the point, just as you seem to be doing in this discussion. OLS by the way is an extremely watered down training to serve the needs of cub leaders as well as the rest of us. So no OLS is not an adequate replacement. Since you have made my point with the last sentence of your own post as to the purpose of WB21C today compared to pre WB21C classes your whole argument loses credibility. National radically changed WB from what it has always been to a bunch of irrelevant management techniques which serves little purpose in developing and delivery of a quality program to your troop. Seattle Pioneer, what you personally think the purpose or content of the course should be is as irrelevant and as incorrect as your argument.

Pressure from the corporate types aside, an ECOH, B&G, or any other significant event is NEVER the proper time for FOS. As a former DE myself I was invited to many ECOH's, usually to take part in the ceremony and would never have even thought of doing an FOS talk. Besides if the DE is worth their salt their FOS campaign would already be organized with volunteers doing the unit pitches while the DE concentrated on the community/corporate campaign. This incident was just in bad taste and that DE should never get invited to any unit celebration again.

SP First of all go to the website in my last post and read the two sections I referenced before you continue with your erroneous assumptions. As a matter of fact it would be a rather simple process for National to revise WB21C curriculum to include the more useful and practical topics of the former WB and scale way back the irrelevant management topics in the current WB. The truth of the matter is that Mazzuca and National's current MO is to downplay the outdoor emphasis/skills part of boy scout program, which Mazzuca freely admits, and turn the Boy Scouts into some kind of generic YMCA type of club. That issue alone is very much worth arguing about and should be a very important concern to every scout leader and boy scout, and former scouter/scout in the BSA today. If all of us leaders just sit back and do nothing instead of voicing our concerns to Mazzuca/National, the result will be the continued erosion of the heart and soul of what makes the Boy Scouts unique and special, namely the outdoor program. The only scout leaders I can see supporting Mazzuca are those couch potato SM's who think true camping can only be done with a Winnebago and car camping. Both of these trends are on the upswing because SM training no longer gives practical and indepth experiences with woodcraft skills. Untrained leaders=lazy leaders=increasing accidents.