BadenP

Yea I am with UC Eagle, the best fitting uniforms were the olive drab and forest green of the boy scouts and explorers of the mid to late sixties and early seventies. They wore like iron, the garrison caps were great, and I still have both of mine. That was when Made in America really meant something to the BSA, now its "Have China Crap Will Travel."

jrush You miss the point entirely, there are MANY Venturing youth and adults,former boy scouts and boy scout leaders, who are still active in the OA, at least in my council. Your explanation is not only ridiculous but isn't even logical.

emb021 I agree with you, the new Venturing shirt is poorly designed and seems to discourage the idea that Venturers still wear OA flaps. Thank goodness there are still some of the prior shirts still available. I feel sorry for summer camp and jamboree Venturers who may be forced to wear those new shirts, IMO, it is just another slap in the face of Venturing by National.

it doesn't seem to work on my computer, what other codes do you need to put in?

Aw Beav Always the legalist, lol, in that statement of mine the wording may be a tad off however what we were told at DE training at National in 1989, verbatim, "someone from the district advancement committee, preferably the DAC, or council must ALWAYS be included in EVERY EBOR to insure BSA policies and procedures are strictly followed." If you want to tear that apart you can take it up with National. While the troop can organize the EBOR the custom in my council was the DAC set the dates and times, right or wrong. However, I do agree that the troop committee would know the boy better and what he had accomplished in scouting giving him a fairer shake, but I have also seen it work the other way as well. Hey Vicki: It is above my pay grade as well, lol.

Beav I think we are talking semantics here, you are saying the district advancement person is a "Guest" to the EBOR when your own source you quote states " at least one member MUST be a district or council representative." This confirms what I have been saying all along. As to who chairs the EBOR I think that may be more local custom than anything else, even though your source seems to be more in agreement with what I said than what you have stated, just an observation. Now back to the Vicki and Merlyn interesting debate on defining God.

Well Beav Your post didn't sound quite right so I went to three scout sites, including the BSA site and they all state that "At least on member of any EBOR must be a member of the District Advancement Committee and they are to serve as the Chair of the EBOR." So I either have to believe what you state or the BSA and two other reputable scouting sites. This was always the way EBOR's were conducted in my council as a DE and how they are conducted in my current council, and the adjoining one as well. So I think you may be wrong this time, rare I know but still wrong.

qwasze What a weird world you seem to live in. You are right at BOR's the boy is at the mercy of the troop leadership, that is why an EBOR is NOT supposed to ever be done, organized or controlled by the troop hierarchy but is under the direct control of the Dist. Advancement Chair and who he/she deems fit to determine if the boy has qualified for Eagle. The Eagle Award is approved by National and the EBOR is no place for personal prejudices or interpretations of the troop leaders or the CO of what is reverent or what the DRP really means especially when they violate or oppose the standards set by the BSA. When the rules are followed as set by the BSA the "inquisitionally minded" as you call them will not be able to interfer or influence the outcome of a boy getting his Eagle because they feel he does not meet the 12th point of the scout law. Your post qwasze also reinforces my opinion that "hardcore" fundamentalist type churches make LOUSY CO's and should not be allowed to sponsor any scout units.

It seems to me that I remember during my training as a DE at National, and then as a SM that it was made pretty clear that all EBOR's are the purview of the DAC who decides when and where and who will serve on that committee. They are NOT allowed to be organized by any of the unit leaders or held at the CO of that unit, as usually there are 3-4 or more candidates from different troops scheduled on the same day and location, and obviously at different times. This was to insure that there was impartiality, consistency, and fairness in the way they were conducted. To bring it back to topic, this was also to insure the reverent part of the law, the DRP, and the belief in "GOD" was determined accurately and fairly according to the policies of the BSA and not an individuals interpretation of those policies. It is clear from what I am seeing here that this is not being done consistently on a nationwide basis which I believe is the root cause of all the problems that keep cropping up in this particular area.

Vicki I was talking about EBOR's mainly because they are supposedly done on a district level with impartial, unaffiliated with your church, members and not at a church troop meeting. I bet even in St. Louis it is rare to hear DRP being brought up at a EBOR.

Sorry Old Ox but you are totally incorrect in your assumption that what the scout believes "isn't worth a whit". The parent has to sign the application only because an organization can not legally contract with a minor, period. So the boy can not be held accountable for the DRP, technically, but it is a slippery slope. The rub is when the boy turns 18 and is up for his EBOR and what he says to the committee about his beliefs, if it even comes up, which is rare in my EBOR experiences. Unless the boy, now an adult, at that time attests he is an atheist, even then the board really is powerless, since up to that point the parents signature on the annual application attested to his following the DRP. Lets be honest here people, except for maybe the deep south, how many of you who ever sat on an EBOR ever heard of a candidates religious beliefs being brought up? Rarely if ever I expect. Even if it is however, if the boy is under 18 it is a moot point because of the application signature of the parent, and can not be used as the reason to deny the Eagle. That is why IMO the DRP needs to be dropped from the BSA, and the 12th point of the scout law needs to be redefined and clarified to make it truly nonsectarian.

Frankscout In situations like this it always amazes me how many and how fast so many scouters are ready to act with overkill, and become the judge, jury, and executioner. Your troops policy is way over the top, IMO. Yes what this boy did was serious but unless you have all the facts in front of you, which none of us do, then you are in NO position to give any advice. Twocub, I am sure you know the boy well enough to be able to decide the best resolution for his act, in any case let level heads prevail.

Old Ox I for one hope that it "tempers" you as well, lol. In any case just have fun, make new friends, any additional benefits take them for what they are worth.

What Eamonn laid out in his post is essentially correct as to who does what in the lodge. In my case however when as a DE I was appointed as lodge staff adviser to the struggling lodge in my council the SE made it very clear to me he wanted no part in dealing with the OA in any manner. He said if the lodge could not be turned around in six months or less he was going to disband it. Well the lodge needed a new Adviser, new youth officers, and to finally hold elections and it all fell on me to get it done. The SE did approve the new lodge adviser on paper, the prior one had left over a year earlier, who was selected after much discussion with key volunteers and youth in all the council districts. In the end we all together got the lodge going again, stronger that it had ever been. We had to cut a few corners/procedures in bringing this lodge back to life but in the end it flourished, for many years to come. The council six months later got a new SE who really loved the OA, and thought the lodge was one of the best organized he had ever seen, if only he had seen it less than a year prior. Bottom line,the hierarchial structure of the OA only works if everyone does their job.

Gary I think the gross generalzations you are accusing Twocub's troop and its leaders of is not only unscoutlike but spoken from a position of ignorance. This was a serious issue and your "lets show each other a lot more love" is inappropriate when you have no knowledge of the inner workings of his troop. Giving a kid love after he has just burned down your camp for example is simply totally unrealistic. Twocub: I agree with your solutions, good luck with the boy.

Faith is not only an intangible it is also unique to each individual, even those that belong to the same religious tradition, so to argue for its exsistence or not is simply an exercise in futility. People need to understand that the belief in "GOD" is either there or not and you will never be able to convince a person otherwise through any type of debate. The debate about hell and Satan with someone who does not believe in the exsistence of either is equally a fruitless waste of time. What usually forms the basis of a persons faith or lack of faith is simply the life experiences that person goes through. You can not beat faith into a young or older person, they need to be open to and experience it firsthand for themselves. To debate GOD between a believer and an atheist usually winds up becoming nothing more than a namecalling and juvenile attack fest, with virtually nothing being accomplished.

Eagle77 Object if you will but you just made my point. Look the reality of todays work force is that without a degree you will never be selected for a top management position, no matter "whats in your heart", thats just a cold hard fact. Your mindset of the workplace was what it was like prior and just after WWII, not anymore. That "piece of paper", as you call it represents the ability and desire to go further, dedication to a 4 year commitment with the goal of preparing to take on additional responsibility and having gained the knowledge to make your future workplace a better and more productive one. That is what employers want, and in this high tech economy without a college degree these days the only thing you will be prepared for is asking a customer,"Do you want fries with that?" You can complain or object all you want but that is the cold harsh reality of todays world. USMA Thanks for your resources however none of them are really all that credible or have done any real in depth study of the subject, you might as well have quoted People magazine or the National Enquirer. You know I agree that college is not for everyone but without that degree you better plan to go to a good trade school or into the military otherwise you will be working for less than minimum wage for the rest of your life.

I agree with you Twocub, time to cut the apron strings. However I have not seen anyone bring up why this has become such a big issue. Many OA lodges in the past were accused and found guilty of hazing the ordeal candidates and other types of harrassment that led to lawsuits, candidates being injured during the ordeal, and quite frankly giving the OA a bad name. The council lodge which I was appointed staff advisor for as a DE, had some of these issues that the adult and youth officers turned a blind eye to, and in one case a boy was seriously hurt. That is why IMO, the lodge had basically shrunk into a very small click, and had no new members in years. It took a total changeover with new youth and adult leadership to get it back on tack reestablish its credibility,and to repair the horrible reputation they had earned. Sometimes when proper guidelines for rituals, etc. are not in place or even exsist then you are just asking for trouble. The price the OA has paid is the loss of most of its mystery and uniqueness, and that is just sad. Now you have parents insisting on being present at all OA activities.

These stories bring to memory a teacher I had in jr. high who would walk around the class carrying a yardstick with a plastic skull on the end and a rubberband in its mouth. If we were talking or not paying attention in class within a minute or two you would suddenly hear a snap and feel that rubberband hit the back of your head. It usually only took one or two times before you learned your lesson permanently. Ahhh, the good old days.

Hey top The National store at my council has been out of stock for over 6 months and has no idea when they will get the next shipment. Hmmmm, maybe National is making yet another change to the boy scout program and surprise us all. Something like camping and hiking will now become optional patrol and troop activities, lol.

Tampa The way things are going technologically very soon ALL scout books, including MB books will be available on line and a troop library will become a relic of the past. The other positive will be how quickly you will be access the latest changes in every publication. So before you make a huge investment in MB books assess which ones are being used the most and get one or two copies to hold you until the "changeover" happens.

USMA Your entire scenario is based on either false data or overly flawed data. You can not blame the mismanagement of college loans, most of which are government controlled on the college. Or the stupidity of students who maximize their loans to not only pay their college costs but all of their living costs as well as living high on the hog until they graduate and have to pay it back, but they are in the minority. Colleges with low graduation rates are very few and usually of low quality. Besides now you have online universities where a kid never has to leave their bed to take classes. Loans are NOT the reason for higher tuition, mismanagement of the schools resources, overpaid faculty and administration,unecessary building projects, and a really overinflated sports budget are the usual culprits. You really ought to do more research before you spout out such false claims. The people who I hear constantly complaining about too many kids in college are those who never went themselves due to poor grades or a lack of ambition to better themselves. Ignorance loves company as much as misery I guess.

neil I agree that since the disasterous urban boy scout program of the 1970's we have never gotten back to the primarily outdoor oriented program of before. It seems each year another outdoor rank requirement falls to the wayside never to be seen again, and the boy scout program continues to slip further down a very deep slope. Backpacking is an essential scout skill, especially for 1st Class, and a 1 1/2 hike in and out is a very doable goal. As good old Kudu loves to point out if we keep heading the way we are with the boy scout program pretty soon the name will have to be changed to the "Cupcake Scouts of America". Soon I hope that the powers that be at National will realize the value of these scoutcraft skills and reincorporate back into the program. Still, there are some very good troops out there with a strong outdoor program but they seem to be getting fewer and fewer each year.

Professionally speaking as an ordained minister, I think this is a real slippery slope for any scout leader to question any boys religious beliefs in any depth. 1) Most if not all scout leaders are not properly trained to make a knowledgeable in depth evaluation of a boys belief system, even if he states he is an atheist you can not know if that is truly what the boy believes. 2) A young boy has a very difficult time seperating his concept of "GOD" from the religious institution he and his family may attend. 3) The reality is that over the next few years this boys understanding and belief in a higher power will continue to change and develop, as it does with all youth. 4)Another pitfall the scout leader will encounter, but rarely admit, is his/her own personal understanding of "God", which may be lacking or incomplete, full of personal biases, too Christian-Judeo oriented to honestly and fairly determine the true nature of any boys own personal spirituality, which may be very different from our own. There is an old saying in Christianity, "Let go and let God". We only kid ourselves if we think that we are the ones who bring someone to becoming a believer when in actuality it is the Supreme Being who touches a persons heart and begins the mutual relationship. Why do we think we can do a better job?

If adults running a pack and the parents can not tell the difference between a scout event and a non scout event there are even bigger problems for that unit to deal with. The G2SS is nothing more than a set of GUIDELINES, not LAWS or RULES, and has no relevance in this instance since this was NOT even a scout event, period. I can not believe what a group of pansies so many of the parents of today have become. Maybe Mazzuca is right and the BSA should eliminate all outdoor aspects of the program and just stick to safe indoor computer technology oriented activities. The BSA will become a virtual reality game where all activities and advancements can be completed online.