BadenP

The Bible also contains ideals for humans to live by and obtain a closer relationship to God, but no human has ever yet obtained perfection. We are all imperfect but we can always aspire to become better than we are. The methods of scouting are there for all units to aspire to in order to help give the youth the best quality and most complete scouting experience we can. All scouting units are not alike and certainly not perfect, but they can all strive to do the best job they possibly can.

Frank You again missed the point. This is not about getting rid of the uniform but whether wearing the scout shirt without the pants is still considered being in uniform. It still becomes the issue, is it the uniform that truly makes a boy a scout or is it just a symbol of scouting?

Calico You have been in scouting long enough to know requirements change or disappear all the time, or at the very least an exception can be made. We will just have to wait and see.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

shortridge I worked for Mazzuca years ago as a DE and I know his feelings about coed scouting from back then, I really doubt they have changed that much over time.

With the evergrowing number of FEMALE boy scout leaders now in the OA and many becoming Vigil members I think this whole discussion is really moot. If Mazzucca has his way the boy scouts will indeed become coed, as it is in much of the world already, during his tenure as CSE.

Frank aka F-scouter Man you always take everything so personally. Look no beratement was implied other than everything is not always as black or white as so many of you UPSP's like to mandate to the rest of us in this forum. Learn to look at things from more than only one perspective once in a while, otherwise you will miss the big picture. But, thank you for once again proving my point Frank. clemlaw You do indeed make some very good and valid points in your post.

SR540 Baden Powell also said, "Mein Kampf was a great book with some very good ideas." Any quote can be taken out of context to justify any position. Look at the video of those boy scouts in Benghazi, Libya who were showcased in another thread here and who took over directing traffic, delivering and sorting medical supplies, and helping in the hospitals with first aid. Some of them had uniforms, some had pieces of a uniform and some had no uniform, and in EVERY case there was NO doubt they were ALL Boy Scouts to the people of this war torn city and country. It is NOT the uniform that makes the scout it is the boy himself, in every case.

You can look at this whole issue using the adage "is the cup half empty or half full." The only ones I hear CONSTANTLY complaining all the time about this are the old time adult scouters, most of whom are not even active on the unit level anymore and who think they are something between a uniform police officer and some kind of scouting prophet. Look at scouting events in your district and council and you see scouts some in full uniform, some in just the shirt all doing activities together, having fun and not caring about what the others are wearing. You UPSP types out there could learn a lesson from all of them and get rid of those proverbial sticks up your butts, and start to take a real look at what scouting truly is all about, since you really don't seem to get it. In the early days of scouting ALL troops had a mishmash of partly uniformed, fully uniformed, and no uniform members and scouting grew in spite of it. The kids learned the skills of woodcraft, leadership and citizenship whether or not they even owned a uniform or part of a uniform. To all you UPSP types out there it is time for you to abandon your Rockwellian Scouting World fantasies and see scouting through the reality of todays world.

It really is not that difficult, our council approves all KOA campgrounds and that is a good start for newbie cub campers. Our council does not act like camping police and will allow almost any developed campground based on the adult leaders word as to what facilities are available.

And National worries about Laser Tag, lmao.

OGE Bang! you shot yourself in the foot once again. Abraham Lincoln never went to law school but read the right books and passed the bar exam only to become an accomplished attorney and then president. Any other pearls of OGE wisdom you would care to drop, lol.

Sorry OGE The G2SS is NOT, NOT "regarded the same universally throughout the breadth of the scouting program." As well as the fact the G2SS only refers to the safety aspects and not the quality of the scouting programs being delivered nationally. The problem is NOT the reading of BSA publications but the interpretation of what is contained in them. The other training problem,IMO, is the number of online programs that has replaced the basic trainings and caused even further misinterpretation and even less retention of the material. It is not as much that scouters can not read, but rather the unclear, obtuse, and poorly written material presented in these publications. As far as live training is concerned most of the presenters are not adequately trained not only in the topics but how to present the material in an interesting and inclusive manner instead of just standing there and reading verbatim from a script. Then you wonder why scouters feel resentful? In my own council we have dealt with and corrected these problems as EVERY council in the BSA should do. So OGE you can get off your high horse now.

IMO, the main resentment comes from scouters being told a certain training is mandatory or essential in doing your position, and you commit your time and money, then the training turns out to be a complete waste. In my council we have a new SE who is very concerned about the quality and content of all training and he has a mandatory Train the Trainer series of classes that he personally oversees, and instructs some of the sections. If any district or council trainer does not or refuses to attend they are removed from their training positions for two years, no exceptions, needless to say he gets 100% attendance. The result has been a much, much, higher quality of presentations and content and a dramatic increase in attendance from scouters. I wish all SE's took similiar steps in their own councils then this discussion would become moot.

I have to agree with shortridge (and Kudu), Kudu's method is very effective if you are really interested in showing boys and parents what scouting is truly all about. I have used a similar version of the same thing years ago when I was a SM, and the BSA was still welcome into the schools, and it worked great. Hands on scouting activities instead of hearing an hour long speech is always much more effective in bringing in new recruits to your troop, pack or crew. AS Kudu states in his outline followup is the other key element in recruiting success.

Hey speedy Don't worry at the rate Mazzuca is redefining the "real" purpose of scouting and the outdoor aspect continues to get diminished pretty soon all knives and axes will be banned in scouting as well as all firemaking activities. After all we don't want our boys to accidently injure themselves do we. It would not surprise me if National adds a new point to the scout law, "A scout is fearful" - a scout will avoid any and all occasions where they may feel uncomfortable or scared in the outdoors or on any other scouting activity. G2SS new guideline - "All scouts and scouters will avoid all tools or activities, such as knives, axes, rope, all camping or high adventure activities of any kind due to the remote possibility of being injured. Ok I am being slightly sarcastic but I really see the BSA heading toward the edge of this cliff where if National does not get its head out of the sand and continues in its current direction the BSA will surely go right on over that edge.

carcondad Thats why the rules are what they are, even a troop of five is not really viable and will die in the first year unless new boys are found. Sounds to me like you are running a one scout troop with your son, no other adults or youth and that just isn't kosher in any youth organization for obvious reasons. First step get your adult leadership in place and develop a recruitment strategy with them and approach the local schools to put up posters, etc. As a DE I started a pack and a troop in a little town of 850 the pack had ten kids and the troop seven to start, so it can be done. I was in the area on vacation last fall and both units are still there, the pack has 35 and the troop 25 scouts twenty years later. So don't shortchange your boy, lone scout is only a last resort.

fermi You are right in being upset being compared to Bill Clinton as you could never even get close to the kind of man he is, in my thinking you are much more along the lines of being more like a smart-as* Charlie Sheen, lol.

Two very valid points so far: "Common sense is in short supply with too many scout leaders." From G2SS - "Scouters need to be aware of all state and local laws which always supercedes BSA policies and rules." So in a nutshell the G2SS is invalid when it conflicts with state or local or federal law. The scouter needs to use common sense in all situations and can refer to the G2SS for further guidance as long as the information in it does not conflict with local and state laws. National develops BSA policies but it the local council who interprets and enforces those policies,which unfortunately is not always consistent nationwide.

Ok OGE I got your point, as to your question is the G2SS official or not I do not recall a statement in the book in the preface or introduction, or anywhere that unequivocally states that these are the official policies, rules, and regulations of the BSA and must be followed exactly as written at all times for all scouting events. I think Beavah stated a while back that it is not written with the proper legalese that an "official rule book would need to have." So IMO, it is called a GUIDE therefore that is what I consider it to be and use it as such. The language in some areas is too wishy washy or open to too much interpretation to be considered official. I am sure that there are a few in here that will try to make the opposite case, however the book does not carry the imprimatur of the CSE or the Official seal of the BSA.

OGE Your whole argument looses credibility if the boys plan to or even thinking about doing any fishing because you can not use a folding knife on raw fish and get it properly clean and sterile. Besides how many scouts cut their own fingers when folding their knife or trying to cut something inappropriate and the blade folds up on them, versus sliding the sheath knife back into its sheath. If the scout is properly trained a sheath knife is much more useful and versatile than a folding one on any trip into the outdoors.

Buffalo I don't think the military is bound by these same regulations, but I could be wrong. I agree with you that the Eagle is still a solid factor in OCS candidate selections.

Neal Apparently using the Eagle to choose between two equal candidates is considered a form of discrimination under federal labor law, EEOC Uniform Guidelines on Employee Selection Procedures, Title VII, so I have been told, and could lead to an employer being severely fined for such practices. Now I am no lawyer or HR expert but was told this by a well respected expert with a nationwide corporation who deals with these kind of situations all the time. This also does not take into account individual states rules and regulations. Now don't shoot the messenger!

According to news reports Gahdafi's forces are scheduled to hit that city with those scouts sometime today. May they all be kept protected and safe.

Well Barry Let me tell you my wife has been in Human Resources for over 25 years now and is also an officer in a huge nationwide organization of HR professionals representing most major businesses, industry, medical workers, teachers, etc, etc. and the input from her and many of her associates to me was in a nutshell, "the Eagle Scout rank while it may be quite an achievement as a youth is not relevant to the qualifications for any position nor can it EVER be used as an advantage or reason to favor one applicant over another, as this would be a violation of state and federal labor law." Most online applications these days do not even give you a place to list outside organizations unless you can show there is a direct correlation to the qualifications of the position. Barry this is just the way it is today in the corporate world, hardcore, unpersonal, and cutthroat. I don't like it and glad I am not in it anymore. The days of a boy walking in to a company and telling them he is an Eagle Scout expecting it to open doors for him are gone forever. IMO, it is sad but true.

John It still doesnt prove your point as it refers to a few colleges versus your statement of ALL the businesses in Kansas City, you just need to keep things in proper perspective John is all I am saying. The Eagle still does not have the pull it once did 20 or more years ago nationwide, that is the sad truth.