Lisabob

"And, Lisabob, I was in no way trying to say that there are no females in scouting, or that they should be expected to do the sewing and cooking at campouts. Every female scouter I have ever met has been top notch in my book. It's just my opinion that the scout's mothers are better cooks than they are. " LOL, I understand. Having seen a few of these guys "cook" I think it might be safe to say that a trained chimp would be better at it too... Anyway I'm ok w/ that because they sure do appreciate a home cooked meal on Sunday night after a weekend of camping and fending for themselves. Lisa'bob

Thank you Eamonn, for putting things in perspective a bit. Several posters have voiced frustrations with our respective units and I have been one of those lately. Sometimes that frustration gets overwhelming and you lose sight of the larger process. For me, putting it back into the forming-storming-norming-performing frame is helpful. Right now we're storming. I think we'll probably storm a little while longer and it is immensely difficult to work through that without wanting to throttle a few people along the way. But I am hopeful that we won't be stuck here permanently! I think I've voiced frustration here in part as a way to vent occasionally. Something I can't do in my own community because it won't be productive. I see it might not always be productive here either. Hopefully, in doing so, I haven't brought anybody else down with a case of the scouter blues. To borrow from Barry, I really do love this scouting stuff. Eamonn, I know that if I lived in your area I would encourage my boy to check out your ship if he were old enough!!! Of course there will always be a few scouts who will decide that it isn't for them, but from all the things you've written here, it sounds like a really exciting and fun program. Same is true if we lived near several other regular posters. Keep telling us about what goes right (and wrong) with your units. It is nice to hear both sides of the coin. Lisa'bob

I missed that one completely. Interesting... I'm curious though - do you explicitly ask scouts whether they believe in a higher power at BORs and SM conferences? I'm still rather new to this but I have yet to sit on a BOR for any rank where this has been asked. In a couple the topic came up but it was at the scout's initiation, not the adults'. Of course our CO is not a religious institution so maybe that would be more common in cases where the CO is a religious group. (Please, let's not get into the political fray here! I just wonder whether it is typical to ask that question, that's all.)

We had a good deal of success with spring recruitment. Day camp is a huge draw. We've used the council flyers plus local identifying text that adkpaddler describes, with good results. The one and only drawback we had: some parents would sign up their kids to go to day camp and then after camp they'd vanish. This tended to happen more with older boys (4th/5th grade) who had not been part of the pack previously, and who had little brothers. In several cases I'm certain parents signed up both boys as a convenience to the parent, when the older one had no interest in scouts. Still - we were always glad to have all of them along. If they have a good time at camp they may even change their minds and stick around in the fall! Just don't get too over-excited about the longevity of your new recruits until you get to know them and their situations a bit. Good luck! Let us know how it works out. Lisa'bob

Oh I definitely understand about the lack of convenient, local training. For years and years our district training chair would only schedule trainings at one of the council camps that happens to be near his house. And which is a good hour's drive from 3/4 of the district's population. Our local solution was to attend training sessions held by a different council. They actually had closer, more convenient, and CHEAPER training sessions. Quality tended to be better too! But if that also isn't an option for you, depending on where you live, maybe call your training chair. I have known some who will do a training road show, if you can help them scare up a reasonable audience. Don't know if yours will do it, but it can't hurt to ask. Even if it is a "no" maybe it'll send (another) message to the trainers that they are not meeting demand, the way things are currently set up. Lisa'bob

I know of very few packs where all the leaders hold only one position each. I'm sure they're out there but probably not that common. However, if a single leader is doing the work of SEVERAL people then that's a serious problem. Speaking from experience: I found myself there with our cub pack for a while because things HAD to be done and nobody else would do them. For a very short time, in extreme circumstances, that might have to happen. But I found that the more I did, the harder it was to give any of it away to others. Not so much because I wanted to be in control but I really believe, because others saw how deep I was in and they didn't want to end up there too. I think in some cases people thought if they took on one of "my" roles they'd end up with all of them. As I got ready to move on to boy scouts I slowly stopped doing things. At first they stayed un-done (very hard for me!). After a little bit though people actually did come forward to do them. I was surprised at the time. But in retrospect it makes sense even if it is counter-intuitive. As for the "trained" strip. To get that, one must complete NLE and position specific training. I don't know about your area, but around here these are NOT online. So although I might do a variety of online training (YPT, Fast Start, Safe Swim, maybe others) I wouldn't be fully trained and I wouldn't get my strip if I didn't physically attend the NLE and position specific training and I wouldn't expect my DE to mail it to me either. I wonder if that's the issue for Believe. Lisa'bob

It's a funny thing about adult volunteers. Usually units can't get enough of them. One of the big "selling points" of this troop is that there is a highly involved and committed group of adults. On weekend campouts it is common to have 10-15 adults present. At troop meetings, occasionally we've had as many or more adults in uniform than scouts. Frazzled webelos den leaders see this as a fantastic strength. In some ways it is. In others...well olds, I agree that 10 adults is a few too many. We do have a couple of special needs boys in the group. Their parents are not attending and the adults who are probably won't be working much with those boys. We have 8 or 10 new scouts going to camp for the first time with us. Only one of their parents is going and he's an ASM anyway. What we have here is a group of adults who have been involved for a long time. Most of their boys are older teens or in college. They're knowledgable and skilled outdoorsmen. But (I think) they view this as their troop, as much as it is the boys' troop. Anyway at first I had thought about going myself. I like camping and I like the kids and my work schedule would allow me to go. But with 10 adults, forget it, they don't need me. Lisa'bob

Cubs, I didn't catch your son's age? Is he new to boy scouts this year? Will this be his first time at boy scout camp? Or is he older and just wants a different experience than what his troop usually provides? If he's new to the troop or to boy scout camp, then of course you want to look extra hard at how the camp sets up their provo program. Some are probably more suited to older boys than younger ones. One thing you might want to ask about is the typical age group for provo campers at the camps in question. Last year my son went as a provo camper and he was at least 3 years younger than all the other boys in his provo troop. Also ask about the provo SM and ASMs (how many, ratio of adults to boys, and how they're chosen). While the SM of my son's troop last year was a nice person, he was a young-ish college student who didn't seem to have much experience with younger kids. And he only had one ASM (also a very young adult). The two of them really had their hands full because the provo troop contained about 40 boys. Later on I heard that for this particular camp, such an experience was typical. Had we known that going in, we might've chosen to find somewhere else for my son to go. My son still had an ok time but it would've been better if there had been some boys his own age and if there had been somewhat better staffing. Lisa'bob

ahem Avid... I do believe girls ARE allowed to partake in scouting. They're called Girl Scouts. Or Venturers. Or SCOUTERS. Lemme tell you though, if I go camping with a troop and they think I should do the cooking (cleaning, sewing, etc.) solely because I'm the female in the group, I'm going to have some words with them. Lisa'bob

I'm all for the sewing MB! Shortly after the guys in my son's den became webelos my DL husband taught them to do some rudimentary sewing. They were horrified at first. One actually said, quite loudly, "sewing, ugh, that's women's work!" To which my dear husband responded: "maybe, but if you learn to sew, you'll never need a girlfriend or a wife." "Ohhhh" said all the boys as they picked up their needles and got busy. All of us moms just about bust a gut in the background. Lisa'bob

Sorry but what I find "repugnant" is Oliver North claiming that he has some particular knowledge of what it means to be "morally straight." If he had really taken the scout oath to heart back when he was a boy scout then he wouldn't have engaged in the activities that he did, as an adult, in the first place. I suggest the guy needs another scoutmaster conference. In my book he does no favors to the BSA by attempting to defend the moral high ground on our behalf. Lisa'bob

My son's troop is going to a camp this summer where they had a choice between patrol cooking and dining halls. They chose the patrol cooking. I can see where this may help build patrols, although as I've been helping them with mb registration I've noticed an interesting thing. One of the patrols chose to do most of the same mbs together. The rest of the patrols are scattered to the winds all day long. It'll be interesting to see how, or if, this has any effect on the tightness of the patrol by the end of the week. Lisa'bob

Believe wrote: "Even my son has made me promise not to be a Leader in BSA. He's tired of seeing me spend all my time on Scouts. He loves Scouts, but he told me that he wished we could just show up once a week like everyone else. Bless his heart. " Boy do I understand that! My son made the same basic comment toward the end of his WII year. Since then, my husband has completely gotten out of scouting (after being a den leader for 2 1/2 years, and very good at it) and although I'm still involved, I've pulled back a lot (I had a variety of hats in the pack). The first 6 months my son was in the troop I was completely on the sidelines as "just a parent." And 15 months into things, I'm still carefully trying not to get over-involved in what should be HIS experience, though I am a committee member. Having said all that, part of the problem could be the number of hats you're wearing. I did it too at various stages in cubs. Probably like you, I did it because I believe in the program and I didn't want to see it flop, and if I was going be associated with it, it was somewhat less grievance to me personally just to do it, than to put up w/ half-baked, poor planning by other people who weren't that committed. (I hope that doesn't sound too arrogant!) At the start, the pack was in total disarray due to a leader meltdown and I do believe that if I and a couple of other adults hadn't come forward, the pack might have folded. So I don't regret it. But after a little while, when things had stabilized again, what I found was that a) people absolutely would NOT step up to help because either they knew I'd do it in the end if no one else did or else maybe they were afraid of being in as deep as I was and b) the pack did just fine and suprise, new people stepped up to help, after I left. In a way, I think I had set myself up by being willing to step in and do whatever needed doing, when no one else would. That's ok short term but if you've become known as the go-to-person in your pack, think about scaling back. And yes, I do know exactly how hard that can be. But in the end it will be better for you, for your boy, and for the pack. Bottom line: get back to a place where both you and your boy can enjoy scouting again and don't allow it to take over your life! YIS, Lisa'bob

Our troop ran their own camp program last summer, in part to accomodate a trip to yellowstone (in fact, one of our scouts and his dad wrote an article about it that was published in Scouting magazine this spring) Neither my son nor I were present, as we had a major family event to attend that had been scheduled for the same week. However, there's been a lot of discussion and from what I have been told by various people who did attend, the results were somewhat mixed. On one hand, the trip was a great experience that allowed the boys (and most of the adults) to see parts of the country that they would never have seen otherwise. They spent time in the true "back country" with experienced outdoorsmen. They saw wildlife up close (within reason). They bonded. They developed an awe, respect for, and enjoyment of the outdoors. On the other hand most of the adults who went seem to agree that it is much, MUCH harder to plan and implement a full camp program than they ever expected. And as a result, many of the elements of a traditional camp experience (like mbs, first year program, trail to eagle, etc.) did not occur even though they had been included in the plan. For the next few years at least, we will be attending traditional camps again. Having worked for years on camp staffs including as camp director at a couple different places, I admit I pretty much expected this to occur. And I've always been amazed at the number of people who complain that they can "do it better" than a well-run established camp, and yet who have no prior experience with running such programs. I think the experience was still a good one for the boys who went. But I would really encourage anybody thinking about running their own week-long camp to give it a long, hard, look and seriously accept the advice of people who have experience organizing camps before deciding to go that route. Lisa'bob

Try contacting area troops too. They might have a Baloo-trained individual who recently crossed over to the troop. Also around here, our district camping chair has offered in the past to go camping with any pack that finds themselves suddenly short on the BALOO requirement (provided that it was unforeseen). I don't know if anyone took her up on the offer but you might contact your district leaders and inquire. In particular I'd want to talk with the training chair and ask him or her to try and lend a hand since that's the person who probably canceled your BALOO class and put you here to start with! Good luck! Oh, PS, I really, really, support the idea of taking the kids to a district or council summer camp (day or resident), if the option exists. These are usually great programs and they'll do a lot of the organizational work for you. Lisa'bob

That's great funscout! Never let an eager volunteer go to waste. I'd definitely agree that you don't want him getting carried away w/ the den over the summer (which could also turn off those parents who are a little less enthusiastic than he is, if he insisted on weekly meetings all summer or something like that, out of the norm of the rest of the pack). So how about asking him to help plan specific tiger-oriented activities for your summer pack events? And maybe suggest holding just a couple of limited tiger events on their own? But get him involved in some specific manner with the pack asap! That's my advice, FWIW. Lisa'bob

Follow Up: Unfortunately it hasn't worked out too well and this young man decided to quit scouts. Additionally, the webelos den leader (who has another 8 or 9 boys crossing into a troop next February) is upset with how things have worked out because she really connected with this scout when he was in her den and she feels that we didn't do enough to work with him. She's looking for other troops for next year at this point. Not sure that I blame her and it pains me to say that. Actually we're having a bit of a rough time with the new scouts right now; another boy quit yesterday. Some of it, I believe, has to do with how the first year experience is set up in this troop (rather more hands off by adult leadership than in other troops in the area). Some has to do with this particular mix of kids, several of whom have behavioral or emotional disorders, difficult family lives, or all of the above. When you mix a hands-off style with a volatile group of young boys who aren't used to being on their own and aren't very mature even for their young age, there can be collateral damage. The least secure of them or the most sensitive, or most sheltered, or what have you, are likely to fall by the wayside. Or maybe get pushed to the wayside. Anyway that's my take. It is not the take of several of the ASMs & SM who tend to see this either as a discipline/respect issue ("those awful boys don't know how to behave!") or as new parents not supporting/understanding the difference between boyscouts and cubscouts. (and those are legitimate issues too I guess, I just think that more could be done by the adult leadership to allay those concerns, if we had a more functional program for our newest scouts.) I find all of this so frustrating. This troop has many strengths but when you lose large numbers of young scouts (for whatever reasons)several years running it puts a gaping hole in the troop. It suggests that something is wrong with the way you run your program for the young scouts. And yet the people who are in positions to fix it don't want to hear that they need to make some changes. Nor do they take seriously suggestions along those lines, nor welcome others into positions where change can realistically be made. Seems like the only options are stay put and go along, or leave.

Well we finished camp sign ups last night. We've got 34 boys and 10 (!) adults attending for the week. When I started this thread I was worried we might not have enough adults. Guess that's not going to be an issue! Lisa'bob

I would actually hope that most MBCs would do what Ma Scout describes. Failing to do so brings the integrity of the mb program into question. It undermines the whole purpose and makes the program more about checking things off and getting pretty patches than about actual growth and development. (anecdote coming, ignore it if you want) Not too long ago I agreed (somewhat against better judgment) to help with a mb session at a mb college day. As it was communication mb, eagle required, we were quite popular with scouts. Most had done little or nothing to prepare and they received partials that day, based on what we were able to do in the session. A few really had their stuff together and were able to do all the requirements and/or had written documentation for some that couldn't be done on site (like attending a community meeting). These young men were generally engaged and interested in talking about their experiences. A few others showed up having done no prep work, gave what appeared to be absolutely no thought to the requirements either ahead of time or that day, and yet expected sign offs anyway. One got angry when I explained I couldn't sign off on things he had not done and wasn't prepared to discuss (including, among others, investigating and discussing possible careers in communications- his answers tended to be along the "dunno" line). He shot off to go get his SM to "argue" with me. I was feeling awful about it. And then, scout comes storming back w/ SM in tow and guess what, the SM is a patrol "nest mate" of mine from WB! Imagine the look on this young man's face when SM'bob and I embraced and started singing our patrol song, motions and all, (which is truly a production, let me assure you) in front of a couple hundred other scouts and scouters. The poor scout, I do believe, learned something about communication that day after all. But he didn't get my signature on things he hadn't done and the SM actually thanked me. SM told me later that this young man and his father attempt to bully practically everybody into signing off on practically everything, and apparently it works most of the time - to the scout's detriment in the long view of course. Hopefully most interactions don't include this kind of drama (neither melo- nor theatrical) but still, we are often the only people in a scout's life who gently insist that the boy really do his best. I think it is important to keep doing just that in a caring way. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Resqman, sounds like a pretty solid troop. I give credit to our troop, they're slowly coming around and for next year they have a "shakedown" campout planned for shortly after cross-over so they can get the new scouts oriented and on their way. I think I'll print out your post and show it to our SM as a way to (hopefully) get him started thinking about what to do at that campout. Maybe he'll share it with the PLC. Until about 15 months ago this was a troop with almost no young/new scouts. At the time my son's group crossed over there were only a couple of scouts at 1st and 2nd cl. ranks and all had been with the troop at least two years. Since then things have changed and now about half of the scouts are either finishing their first year or have just joined this spring. So it is an adjustment for both the established adult leaders and the older boys. It isn't so much that I'm worried about slow advancement in its own right, as a couple of people seem to have suggested. It is more that, at least until you get to 1st cl. you are lacking in basic skills that you may need to enjoy yourself while camping. Also that I think it is tough on boys who want to advance and are prepared and have planned to do the work to be constantly put off (by adults and older scouts alike) because there's never enough time at campouts to do it. And right now the crunch is on because summer camp is coming and boys who aren't close to 1st Cl. are expected to sign up for the camp's first year program. This includes most of our 2nd year boys (they didn't have a 1st yr. program at camp last summer) who, however, do not want to be lumped in with the new scouts at camp all week, and want to work on the "cool" mbs that the camp offers instead. And then also it is causing tension among the adult leaders. Since most of the "established" leaders have older boys (14+, several whose boys have aged out) they naturally have a different take on things than those with boys who are 10 or 11. Example, a couple of adults with younger boys have offered to do a one-day deal with some boys who want to work on basic skills like compass work/hike, fire building, etc.. But this is perceived as being adult led (and maybe it is?) and the advice of these established ASMs with older boys is to "let the boys figure it out" on their own. Which seems to mean...never, because there's never time on campouts to do any of this stuff and patrols in this troop simply do not do independent activities. As for cooking, the patrols are mixed age (this is new) except for the NSPs, which are still led by an appointed, older PL (yes I know, that's not quite how it should work but that IS the way it is). The older boys end up making the decisions and the younger boys either go along or are ignored - though for the most part, they are not quite as vocal as they might be, but that's part of the dynamic. The ones who are quite vocal tend to be viewed as "problem" boys by the group, adults included. And for some reason, nobody uses dutch ovens and they always use stoves and the older boys end up doing the cooking 9 out of 10 times, even when it isn't planned that way. Maybe again, they're just too busy to wait for something to cook over an open fire? I'm at a bit of a loss for how to make constructive contributions to this situation. Discussion on this topic in ASM/Committee meetings tends to get pretty defensive and there's a groupthink element to it. And of course the ASMs who have been around a long time are also really skilled outdoorsmen with a lot to offer, who have put countless hours into the troop. They're the experts and it is hard to challenge that when they don't see much of a need for change. Lisa'bob

Funscout, I'm so glad to hear (read?) you say that! Can you believe, we actually had an ASM give a new boy a REALLY hard time the other night because he showed up in his soccer shorts instead of full uniform. He and his mom were coming straight from a game on the far side of town. We're a uniformed troop and it is true that some of the new cross-over scouts are struggling to adjust to this fact but c'mon... Lisa'bob

I'm curious to hear what you all think about this. The troop my son is in has developed a reputation for slow advancement through first class. Part of this is the dominant philosophy among most of the experienced ASMs, that 1st Cl/1st yr. is too much, too fast (or too little, too fast, as they claim, perhaps rightly, that it leads to a shallow knowledge base). But part of it seems to be the way campouts work. Time and again my son and other boys who are in their first or second year have gone on campouts expecting, hoping, and planning to work on advancement requirements like fire building, knife/axe handling, 1st aid skills, open fire cooking, etc., only to say upon return that there really wasn't time to do any of the above because they were too busy with program and/or with cooking and cleaning up, and other camp chores. As for the open fire cooking (2nd cl. requirement), there is seldom opportunity to do this and the younger boys don't have much voice in the kind of cooking they are allowed to do (nearly always using small stoves) I'm all for keeping busy and the boys are (mostly) enjoying the campouts and developing intangible skills like how to get along with groups of people, how to work as part of a team, etc.. So I'm not necessarily criticizing. But I wonder how other troops manage to find a balance between having an active program at campouts and having time for boys to seek out older scouts or adults to work on specific advancement requirements on campouts? Do you explicitly schedule free time into your weekend program? Do you implicitly leave time and hope it works out? Do you, too, find yourselves too busy to do any "extra" stuff at campouts? Lisa'bob

Bill, I've noticed the same thing about fundraisers, moving from pack to troop at about the same time you did. Our pack also did well on the popcorn sales so I was surprised to find that this troop does not sell any popcorn. Their claim is that the market is saturated by all the other packs and troops in the area. As for getting the boys enthused about participating in your fundraisers, I think you need to look at their understanding of what the money pays for, and how the money is used. Does your troop have individual scout accounts? If so, this may be an incentive for boys to participate (they can then use the money they earn toward activities and gear, all year). Do most the parents in your troop accept, or complain about, paying out of pocket for everything? If they've become accustomed to it, you have a much harder job of getting them to see the "scout is thrifty" side of things but there again, the individual scout accounts may help win them over. When your troop plans its annual calendar, do you include a discussion of cost with the boys? I was astonished to find this year, when I sat in the back of the room while the boys and SM picked next year's activities, that cost was not discussed AT ALL. How can we then fault the boys for not being enthusiastic about (or even aware of) the fundraising they'll need to do to make it happen? OK I guess what I'm suggesting is that you include in your printed material an overview of how to set budget goals, how to determine where, how, and by whom the money will be used (in advance of doing the fundraiser), and maybe some specific examples of popular troop activities, their cost, and how fundraisers might be used to meet that cost. The latter might be a real eye opener for some boys and families. Good luck! Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Beavah I agree that rules can be over-played. They're used by people to control others, they're used by people to justify doing things "their" way even when "their way" doesn't make a lot of sense, and they're used by people who are overly cautious to avoid anything that might include the slightest element of danger. But there do have to be some basic rules that everybody agrees to follow. Like the G2SS or not, those ARE the rules and we shouldn't be picking and choosing which of them suits us on a given day. My beef is that when people start saying, oh these rules are merely advisory suggestions that can be bent, twisted, applied or not, as people think is appropriate, then they lose any solid meaning. Among other things, there are (how many?) millions of us in the BSA and if we all do this, some people are going to make some very stupid decisions about which rules to follow. (You have to know it'll happen - I have met a lot of wonderful scouters but we've all met some real dunderheads too. At least if there ARE clear rules, we can attempt to keep the dunderheads from doing anything truly misguided in the context of our scouting program.) As a parent, I don't want to have to worry that some leader in my kid's troop is making up his or her own rules as they go along. Most parents aren't going to have the skill to know when the leaders are going too far in this respect (when it comes to outdoor activity anyway) so what we have to do to convince parents that we're a) capable and b) safe is let them know what the basic rules are and assure them that we stick to them even when it is inconvenient. You don't need to be a drill sergeant to do this. But...Don't do this and no way are you taking my kid anywhere. So you want to change the rules. OK, that's not out of line w/ the part of the scout law that you quoted: "A scout is obedient." Go back and look at what it says, though, about how to challenge rules that you believe need to be changed. It doesn't say "ignore them or find whatever loopholes you can so as to violate the spirit of the rule while still claiming that technically you're following the rule." Lisa'bob

Hey Narraticong, I love D-Bar-A. But if you're looking for alternatives, Camp Munhacke over in Great Sauk Trail Council (between Pinckney and Dexter) is really nice for cub camping too and doesn't fill up as fast. I know it doesn't solve your problem really, but it's a thought. Lisa'bob