Lisabob

Dozy I do understand that it is really frustrating to work with a unit where everything seems to be going haywire because the adults are too thick-headed to work together. I've been there myself. I'd like to think that most of the time I was on the cool, calm, and reasonable side but I'm sure I've had my moments where that wasn't true (to my chagrin). Also venting is really helpful sometimes, eh? But honestly, if you are coming across at your committee meetings the way you are in your messages here, no one is going to listen to you, except perhaps your husband, and that's not going to help you. Of course they might not listen no matter what, but the image I am getting is that it is hard for you to maintain your calm, cool, and collected stance and when that happens, you're bound to "lose" whatever argument you are engaged in. I'm sorry, but my own experience tells me that's true. You've mentioned you are now getting involved in your district. OK, so get to know the district training chair if you don't already. Ask him or her whether it would be possible to do troop committee training at a committee meeting. Don't schedule this - you don't have that right since you're not the committee chair - but just ask, in hypothetical terms. If the answer is yes, or at least, maybe, then see if your committee chair is interested in doing this. If the answer is still yes, or at least maybe, then offer to help schedule it ASAP. Don't use this to bludgeon them over their heads ("see, you dumb committee members! You were wrong and I was right!") but rather as an opportunity for all of you to come closer to some common ground. What I suggest you NOT do: don't spend your time complaining about your unit's (considerable) internal problems to everyone you meet in your district - it will be perceived as badmouthing and people will assume you're part of the problem (fair or not), and it won't help you either. Instead find one person who can act as a sounding board or mentor to you, and make sure you and they are focused mainly on looking for solutions rather than only venting. Don't pick a yes-(wo)man for this either. You want someone who will tell you when you've gone off the deep end. I see three likely outcomes of the current mess you are describing in your unit: 1. The unit will break apart because of all the fighting among the adults and cease to exist. 2. Some adults will be driven off, along with their boys, and a handful will remain to try to pick up the pieces (you mention it is small without a lot of active adults already so I don't see this as a guaranteed positive). 3. Most of the adults will figure out that together you are all making things much worse, will agree to get trained and work together for the sake of the boys, and the program will slowly rebuild as a result. Think carefully about which of the above outcomes you really want, and how your actions and approaches make that outcome more, or less, likely to occur. And by the way think about how this all looks to rising webelos in your area too. If you strive to drive away a lot of the current adults, that sends a clear message to potential future recruits too. And word travels quickly in scouting circles, I've found. Lisa'bob

Dozy I don't understand this. Troop Committee members ARE adult leaders. If they're not registered as adult leaders, I'm sorry, but they're not committee members. Lisa'bob

Dozy, with respect, no I do not think that what acco wrote is likely to help you get your point across in a committee meeting. (even though I personally agree with him) First: just because it was posted on this forum doesn't necessarily make it true, and somebody on your committee is bound to point that out, thus undermining you. Second: how do you think your fellow committee members will respond when you start in on your grammar lesson? Not well, I don't suppose. People who are ticked off on a personal level are likely to dig in their heels, NOT give you what you want. Third: You know that saying about how you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar? And by the way there is no such thing as "just a lowly committee member." CMs (and I am one too) are vital to the proper functioning of any troop. They're valuable, one and all. Leading change is a really hard thing to do, more so when not everyone in your group wants to change or wants to be led (by you or by anybody else). Let me earnestly recommend to you that you consider taking Wood Badge the next time it is offered by your council or a nearby council. Leading change and building a common vision are two of the many, very helpful, topics that are included in this training. And as many here will attest, it is routinely one of the best quality training opportunities that the BSA has to offer. Hope I didn't offend you - not my intention, at any rate. Lisa'bob

The AC job is generally held by a committee member and not an ASM. See page 16 of the troop committee guidebook for a description of this position. The argument that a qualified leader may not sign off on their own child's books is one of those urban legends of scouting. Yes, the SM certainly may sign his son's book. He may do the SM conference. And if he is a registered mb counselor for the mb in question, he can work with his own son and sign off on his blue card for that mb too. HOWEVER. The vast majority of leaders I know greatly prefer NOT to sign off on things for their own boy when possible. Two or three reasons. One, you avoid even appearances of impropriety. Too bad that's an issue but sometimes it is. Another is to avoid actually being either too easy or too hard on one's own son because they're your kid - it's unfair to the scout and often hard for parents to recognize when they're (hopefully inadvertantly) doing this. Probably more important: one of the methods of scouting is "adult association" which means that the boys learn to interact with adults and to view (appropriate) adults as role models. Working with a parent means the boy misses an opportunity to work with another adult, and maybe learn something new or learn to think about something from a different perspective. It isn't a rule, no matter what your committee members may say - but it does seem to be something akin to standard practice in most cases. Dozy, once again, training is a wonderful thing. Committee training and SM/ASM leader specific training will do wonders in helping answer questions like this for your whole group of adult leaders. Maybe you can even make a pact with them now that you'll all go - even those who have gone before (refreshers can't hurt) - this fall when your council offers it next. It'll go a long way toward solving some of your problems and bringing the fun back to your troop. Lisa'bob

You guys are great. MaScout, I will try that tactic and see what comes of it! If I don't get a decent answer by late August I will take you up on your offer too. Acco, you and I are not that far from each other so let me ask you this: does your council actually do TCC at the troop level? If so, would you be willing to PM me with your district name? I'd really like to observe a session to see how it is *supposed* to be done. Maybe if I were to contact your district trainer they'd agree to let me come along for the ride one time. Lisa'bob

Ed, please tell me that you see a distinction between "poking fun at one another" in a friendly way, and jokes that rely upon a person's race, ethnic background, religion, gender, physical form, orientation, etc., to masquerade as humor. The former can actually build camaraderie, but does require personal knowledge of the target, circumstances, and the target's sense of humor, in order to work (for the audience to "get it" and to avoid going too far and really upsetting the target). The latter is often about power, insecurity, ignorance, negative stereotyping, forming a false "us vs. them" dichotomy. These kinds of jokes are often clearly derogatory and simply serves to alienate people from the scouting movement. I fail to see how that can be acceptable or desirable and no, I do NOT think this is the same as the oft-maligned notion of "political correctness." You know those bumper stickers that tout scouting's "traditional values?" Well I don't see how such offensive behaviors fit with those values in any kind of a good way. Those certainly aren't the values I had in mind when I agreed to sign up my 7 year old as a cub scout and these days if my son (who is old enough to know better) told those types of jokes in my presence, he'd get a slap at the very least. I do agree though, that it might be taken too far. About a year ago we were told by various council officials that the song "G-d bless my underwear" was no longer acceptable for cubs, as it was offensive. In all honesty I don't see it, unless perhaps one singled out a boy and displayed his ragged under-clothing or something in the process. I do not know if this was part of a regional "grey area" policy or not. (of course, there are also plenty of other really silly songs to sing so perhaps no great loss there) FB, I quite agree but sometimes one does need to choose one's tactics. Rather than gratifying this guy with the immediate response he clearly desired, between WB weekends I had a quiet chat with his troop's SM and CC, both of whom were also fellow WB'ers from the same course and who had become good friends of mine. They were clearly mortified. Perhaps even more so because at the time I, and the other webelos den leader from our pack who was also in the same WB course, had close to 20 webelos scouts eager to become boy scouts, and I made it clear that we couldn't encourage them to go to a troop where adult leaders behaved in such a way. I don't know what they told him, but the guy kept his pants on in public the second weekend. And by the way that was one of the relatively less offensive things that I have witnessed/heard at various scouting events. Some of the other tidbits, often masquerading as "humor," were just breath-taking in their offensiveness. You'd think adults would know better and wouldn't need a "Gray Areas" policy but then you meet a few blockheads along the way. Maybe, just maybe, one or two of those folks will read such a policy and at least think twice? Lisa'bob

John, with respect, I do think it misses the point to determine whether or not it is a regional, council, or national document. It almost certainly is not national policy. Nor should it have to be and who knows what sort of garbled, ambiguous bureaucratese would be produced as a result if it were, anyway. My sense of the northeast region document is that there was a feeling of "people ought to know better, but obviously some don't so here are some common sense guidelines." And I like the NE region's approach that in some cases, it isn't just what, but how. Lisa'bob

Capella, I think you need to trust your and the SM's judgment on this. What you've described could encompass a wide range of behavior, ranging from minor, unthinking rudeness to downright open insolence. And the minimum standard of "acceptable" behavior is also in the eye of the beholder. Please understand, I'm not trying to make excuses for poor behavior. Just saying that I don't think there is likely to be a consensus on this and so you have to rely on your own standards in the end. That said, a word of caution. I certainly understand a desire to help these boys learn the meaning of scout spirit. I would be wary, though, of setting the bar too high for tenderfoot rank. You don't want to make it unattainable or discourage them to the point of quitting. Then they won't reap anything from the program. And of course, your expectations of them are likely to grow as they advance in ranks (and experience and maturity), so do give them some room for that maturation process to occur. Character development doesn't occur overnight. Good luck, it doesn't sound like the easiest of situations but this is where the real "work" of scouting gets done. Lisa'bob

Some of you may remember that earlier in the spring I went to a training session for troop committee members, and it was just awful. No curriculum, the trainer found out 10 minutes prior to the start of the course that he would be the trainer, etc.. Afterward, I spoke with our DE about the situation and he certainly seemed to agree. Since then he has asked me if I would "help" with future committee training sessions (which may well mean that I end up running the training). I am an educator in my day job so I know I can do the teaching. I've been a troop committee member for 2 years now and I've tried to do my own background reading/learning so I know I have at least some experience to draw on. What I don't have is the curriculum, or any idea how it is set up. Nor have I succeeded yet, despite efforts, to get it from my DE. I don't know if it is available elsewhere, or if you have to get it from a DE? Unfortunately nobody else in the region is offering this training prior to when I would be teaching it, either. Here's where I really need your input, from those of you who have either been to, or delivered, the troop committee challenge training. Can this be done effectively at a district-wide training day? I have heard that it is set up to be delivered to an entire troop committee, but that's not the setting we have available to us. Rather, we'll probably have a handful of committee members from all around the district. Lisa'bob

Beavah, fart jokes are fart jokes. Somewhat crude, but hey, we can all probably live with that as long as we don't go delving too much further into bodily functions. But I've been to scouting events where the *adults* put on skits and told jokes that would be considered extremely rude in most settings. This included denigrating comments about women's bodies (I'm talking about women who were present or else well known to the group, not in the abstract), racist and sexist jokes and skits, jokes about various religions (I had no idea how much Catholic bashing, in particular, is apparently considered an acceptable sport in some circles), cross dressing, and the like. What floors me about the gay jokes is that there seems to be more enjoyment of, and willingness to participate in, this "humor" among (primarily) men who are none the less rampantly homophobic most of the time, than one might ever have suspected! What's up with that??? It doesn't take a psychology degree to begin wondering. I often find myself in the (gender) minority at these events and I have been careful over the years to develop a rather thick skin. The guy, for example, in my WB patrol who insisted on relieving himself in plain view at every opportunity "because that's just how men are made," got no reaction from me (I think he was disappointed). So I don't count myself squeamish or overly sensitive. But I'm with Eagle Foot. This kind of behavior is not acceptable and should not be what scouting is known for. Ideally we shouldn't need reminders in the form of a "gray areas" policy such as Eagle Foot described- this should be plain common sense and manners. And it isn't just "boys will be boys" either. It is a direct affront to the values we claim to be teaching our boys. And honestly, if I found that the adult leaders in my son's troop were engaging in this kind of behavior, or allowing the boys to blithely engage in such behavior, we'd be finding a new troop right quick. These are not the lessons I want my son to learn from scouting. He gets enough of this garbage riding the school bus. Lisa'bob

Thanks for the input, everyone. And I think it is safe to say we can all agree w/ FB's and Ed's cautions! Lisa'bob

I think FB has hit on one big problem - mission creep. We recruit people to do one thing and before you know it, we are expecting them to do much, much more. Some people don't mind but a lot of people resist, often to the point of dropping out entirely. Myself, I've become very wary of my DE on this front. Several times he and I have talked about me "helping" with a certain area of the program. I'm happy to do that, but in most cases I've specifically indicated that I would not be a good person to be the chair because (due to my work schedule and family commitments)I can't get to most of the district meetings that this entails. Guess what. Within a month or so, he's assuming I'll be the chair and telling other people the same. Argh. In one case I pulled out of the venture all together because this happened. I felt as though I'd been set up for (public) failure by my DE, though from his perspective I'm sure that wasn't the intent. He is otherwise a great guy and very helpful. But boy, it irks me when the above happens and it makes it less likely that I'll want to volunteer for district jobs in the future, too. I don't know how widespread this is? But I'm willing to bet it is pretty common.

Laura, I think the best guide in this case is probably your son. How does HE feel about this? If he is feeling as though he is being taken advantage of, then there is a real need to step forward. If, on the other hand, he's tired but basically happy, then don't worry too much and let it be his experience. I worked for years as a camp counselor and director(not at BSA camps though), through high school, college, and then some. It is long, hot, hard, tiring work, no doubt about it, and the boy scout camps in our area had a reputation of being harder on staff than most other camps. It was also a formative experience for me, in terms of learning to work hard, stay focused, and interact effectively (most of the time) with a wide variety of different types of people. And while I never liked camp food, I don't recall starving either - but I was always glad for a BIG home cooked meal or two on my day off. Chances are your son will have similar experiences. That said - if he is exhausted to the point of illness or seriously short on food - these are health & safety concerns (both for him and for the boys on the waterfront who he is supposed to be supervising) and should be addressed. Just be careful about honestly deciding whether or not things have crossed the line between conditions that are simply less comfortable than he's used to, and conditions that are unacceptable. This is where he's your best guide. Lisa'bob

bbng - thanks, I'm fairly certain the age guidelines you linked to must be where the "no power tools for cubs" idea comes from. Laura, I too have frequently been told that boys under 18 may not use power tools while working on Eagle projects. It could actually be in the Life-Eagle booklet, I don't know. Someone here probably does know??? Our troop has encouraged boys to recruit a couple of adults (who know how to use these tools) to work on the project, if power tools will be necessary. As long as the boy shows leadership and doesn't allow/expect the adults to "take over" then there's nothing wrong with having the adult use the power saw to cut a few boards or what have you. Or anyway that's been the approach I've seen (though, thinking about it now, I know the boys regularly use power drills) Others may have a different view on that, particularly if there is no such limitation actually in the Life-Eagle packets. Lisa'bob

Lynda, that's what my husband told me too! So much for that particular gender stereotype. Acco, I'm a committee member but not the advancement chair. I have been a mb counselor to the boys in question and I've been on their BORs. I voted, along with other committee members, to approve two of the boys' Eagle project proposals. So yes I have signed off. I've also worked on one boy's Eagle project where I saw first-hand how he demonstrated leadership. And it was most definitely gossip, not lobbying, going on here. I know that there are always people like this and that just being a scouter is not a guarantee of good behavior. It still irks me though. Lisa'bob

OK I need some help from those of you who are more intimately familiar w/ the G2SS than I am. I had a conversation recently with a cub leader who asserted that scouts under the age of 18 may not use power tools and that one must have one's totin' chit at hand in order to use a knife, saw, etc.. This was all in the context of a discussion about pinewood derby cars - and what kinds of tools cubs could and could not use (with supervision, of course) to shape them. I have scoured the G2SS and found only that you have to be 18+ in order to use a chainsaw or log splitter. I have also found both of the above listed as "urban legends" here: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/trainer/urban_legends.htm But then, I've also seen the "no power tools under 18" proscription on various OA sites, troop sites, and I know that my son's troop follows this limitation as well as requiring boys to have their totin' chit cards with them in order to use knives, etc. on campouts. Help me sort truth from fiction here? Lisa'bob

I've found that this idea gets more support at the troop level than at the pack level - maybe because there seem to be more expenses associated with troops (more camping, more specialized gear, longer trips, etc.) Our troop allows the boys to use their money for any scouting-related activity or item, including monthly campouts, activities, camp, uniforms, gear, etc.. Generally we require them to provide a receipt for gear and then reimburse them for that amount. One "grey area" we've had is when a parent wants to attend a campout or summer camp - should they be able to dip into their scout's account to pay the campout fee? I think it would be useful to clarify this up front. The pro is, the parent probably helped the boy raise the money and it may be the only way the parent can afford to go. The con is, scouting is not for the parents, it is for the boys and it puts an added burden on the boys if they have to fundraise for themselves AND their parent(s). We do allow deposits into the account by parents who just don't feel like writing checks every month. The only catch - and we state this very clearly up front - is that whatever money goes into the scout account is scout money. If the boy leaves the troop and transfers to another scout unit, he can take his money with him. But if he quits entirely, he doesn't get it back and it goes to the troop's general fund. If you go that route, make sure parents understand this before they deposit any large sums into the boys' accounts. Also think carefully about where large deposits like summer camp pre-payments go. We collected payments in installments this year, just to make it easier on parents - but we didn't need to turn in payments to the camp until later on so the money was sitting in accounts for a couple of weeks. One scout quit after having paid most of the summer camp fee. There was a debate about whether his family should be reimbursed. The troop hadn't incurred any real cost yet because we hadn't yet turned in payment to the camp and we weren't obligated to pay for this boy. But the money was assigned to his scout account when it was collected. In the end we decided to reimburse him because putting the money in the scout account (as opposed to a separate category just for summer camp) was simply an administrative decision by the treasurer - but it would've been better to have a clear policy on this up front and I know some people felt we should've kept the money. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Moxie, it sounds like your district does indeed operate differently from some others I've seen, with regard to cub leaders. Glad to hear it! Lisa'bob

While we're on the subject, let me add a couple of things from the perspective of a (former) cub leader. 1. Cub packs are part of the district too. So why is it that these district award ceremonies are almost always for, and about, boy scout leaders, and yet people act surprised that not very many cub leaders attend? If it is because you don't have (m)any cub leaders involved in district affairs, then maybe your district leadership needs to re-visit this issue as you look for staff for next year. 2. If the above describes your district and especially if you have a large district then more than likely, most of the people who are earning these awards will not be known to most cub pack leaders. Not surprising then, that they don't attend. 3. Cub leaders usually have young children. These awards dinners are often long, drawn out, (sorry, but it's true) boring, indoor affairs with nothing for kids to do. So now the cub leader either needs to hire a babysitter to attend a long, boring event where she or he will likely not know anybody anyway, or else bring the kids and constantly "shush" them, or leave them home all evening with the kids' other parent (which may just not sit well, domestically speaking). Set it up outside with some fun family-oriented activities and where noise is allowed and you might get a better response from cub leaders. Better yet, do it at your council camp (or somewhere like that) and encourage families to come early and go fishing, toss a football, go for a hike, etc.. I don't know how you'd feel about this one? But I think around here, if we did this at our camp and had the archery range open (with qualified supervision, of course) then we'd draw a bunch more cub families because they have so few opportunities to do cub archery. Of course you don't have to make activities this organized, but it might be a thought. 4. Around here, cub day camp typically costs about $25/boy, which covers three-four days, a T shirt, and a badge. To be honest, it is such a tremendous bargain that parents are more than willing to pay for their kid to go. Not to mention that if my unit wins one of these day camperships, now I have to figure out which kid gets it and which 25-30 kids don't...gee thanks. I'd rather you award certificates to the council scout shop so the pack can afford to purchase all those beltloops the kids will be earning at camp. 5. Keeping in mind that cub leaders' scouter networks are usually pretty limited by the fact that most cub leaders are new to the game, encourage troop committees to invite pack committees from their town to attend. You'll need to provide them with some contact info to do this. Help build those networks. 6. Give an award to anybody who brings a new participant with them. And to the new participant too. 7. Don't forget KISMIF. I really do not believe most people attend these events for the food, or the speaker, or whatever other "special" trappings you come up with. They attend for the camaraderie and because they love the actual scout program the way it plays out on the ground (all politics aside). Lisa'bob

Fscouter writes: " Ignore precedent; a worthy project gets help, a poorly planned project does not." I've been following this thread with interest. As a committee member, I can see a difficulty arising with the above approach, Fscouter. While in theory you are right, in reality, one could argue that every Eagle project that is approved is "worthy." Otherwise, the committee wouldn't have approved it to start with. Now this might be a poor argument - maybe some Eagle projects really are more worthy than others. But then that leads down a road that I personally would not want to travel. On the basis of what objective criteria should the committee be determining which of the Eagle projects they approved are worthy of funding, and which are not? Would the committee ever turn any of their scouts down for funding, after approving the project itself? Would it divide the committee and possibly the troop if/when that happened? Is it worth finding out? It isn't a fear of what others will think - it is a fear of whether or not this is setting one's feet on a path that leads directly into a morass, in plain view from the trail head. I'd think most of us would prefer to avoid that if we can. Lisa'bob

Grr. I went to a meeting last night and I was astounded at some of the things certain adults (!) were saying about fellow scouters who were not present. And as is usually the case when gossip gets going, the facts were mostly incorrect. It seems that this is motivated by jealousy over how quickly a few boys have advanced and the underlying assumption was that these scouts weren't "really" qualified, and that their dad must've signed off on all their requirements (which, having sat on their BORs and having been a mb counselor to them myself, I know to be false). Now the "quality of sign offs" issue has been something discussed among the adult leadership lately and there are some concerns there. But the concern has been that some SCOUTs are signing off on the lower ranks without sufficient attention to detail or quality - not that parents (or even siblings) are signing their children's books. To my eyes these gossiping ASMs might do better to work with the older/higher ranked scouts (in some cases, their own sons) to ensure that they understand and apply a common standard, rather than maligning a scouter whose boys have worked hard on their own. So I did say to these guys, I think you need to make sure you have your facts straight before you criticize others. I don't think they were embarrassed though. Maybe I needed to be even more blunt? Keep in mind I'm the only woman in the group and this dynamic isn't in my favor with some of these guys. But this is bugging me. I'm going to spend time at summer camp with this same group of guys, also minus the main focus of their gossip, and I'm pretty sure this will come up again. So how would you respond in similar situations? Grr. And who knows what they say about me when I'm not there! Lisa'bob

Congrats to you and OJ!

Welcome! Around here there has been an effort to recruit younger, more active UCs rather than bestowing this position on retiring SMs as sort of an honorific. Maybe you are the leading edge of this same effort in your area. Are you planning to start out primarily with cub packs? That's a place where you already have a good deal of experience and where your recent active involvement in the program is a tremendous asset. Seems to me the cub program changes more frequently and in bigger ways than the boy scout program and most of the older UCs I've met, while good people, have not kept up w/ the program - resulting in poor advice and excessive "story telling." Most likely any cub pack would be happy to have you, would not see your age as a drawback (you'll probably have more experience than 90% of them), and will value your help. Also I've noticed the "district spy" worry seems less pronounced with cub leaders, who are nearly always thrilled to have a friend in the district. But in general, I think a light touch is best. Offer information on trainings, upcoming events, etc., as you start building your relationship, rather than jumping right in to tell them how to run THEIR program. Short of major safety or Youth protection concerns, wait until they ask you about advice on their program. If there's a weak area (say, outdoor program) then providing information can be a good way to open discussion without seeming threatening. And keep in mind that what worked for you and your pack may, or may NOT, work for them and theirs. Our troop does not appear to have a UC (or if we do no one has ever seen him or her) so I won't comment on that relationship because I haven't seen it function. Others here will no doubt have advice for you there, though. Keep us posted on how things progress! Lisa'bob

"If you can't support a child, then it should be a crime to produce one. [...] Confiscating the money of taxpayers to pay for their lack of self-control is abhorrent." Err, scoutldr, if having children one couldn't support (however defined) were to be criminalized as you suggest, you can bet that a good deal more of taxpayer money would be confiscated to pay for the resulting legal and administrative costs. Lisa'bob

The problem frzpch described is, unfortunately, no longer just a unit problem because now there's more than one unit. I don't see how the DE wouldn't end up involved, much as he might wish otherwise. From previous posts, I was under the impression that the DE had already stepped in to try to help these two units resolve their issues. And in that case, the DE had better hurry up and do whatever he is going to do, so these two units can both move on. He might decide something grossly unfair, but at least it would be done. Perhaps that's not what happened and the DE isn't involved. It's a mixed up case and maybe I read something wrong. But even then I do think the DE has a role to play here, on two fronts. First, DEs often get involved by working with the CO when units have problems, to make sure the CO is aware of their role in this relationship. Odds are at least even that whatever caused the split between these two groups, the CO wasn't aware of half of it. And even if they were, they may have no idea that some of the original leaders are now trying to "un-pay" for camp for boys that were already signed up. The DE should be making the CO aware of this and applying pressure to cut it out. Might not succeed but the DE should be trying. Second, part of the DE's job is to help new units get up and running, and that includes helping a new unit figure out how to get to camp. We're constantly told that attendance at camp is one of the biggest indicators of retention. Well if the DE wants the new troop to start off strong, it's in his interest to make sure these boys get to camp one way or another. And for that to happen, the new unit needs closure on this financial issue. Nope, not all scouters play "fair." Clearly adults in at least one of these two units, and quite possibly both units, fit that description. Lisa'bob