Lisabob

Kristi! Wait right there a moment! Did I hear you say you want to be Day Camp Director for your district? And your DE no longer "wants" you? Are you kidding???? PLEASE move to my town! We'll welcome you with open arms and beg you to be our day camp director! Our DE is wonderful, not to mention friendly, helpful, courteous, kind, and on down the list. (And I can recommend a couple of great cub packs to you also) Unless there's some other back story that includes you doing heinous things, I simply cannot imagine a situation in which we would EVER tell a good day camp director that s/he's no longer needed (esp. in late April!) just because s/he is no longer the CM of a pack! Running Cub Day Camp is one of the most fun, most frustrating, and probably most thankless jobs going. That's ludicrous. If it were me and if it wouldn't be such a huge blow to the day camp program and thus, the boys, to lose their director so late in the season, that would almost make me mad enough to take hte DE up on his offer, if it were me...(childish, I know, but geez, he asked for it there, didn't he.) Raybz - sounds like everybody in your pack needs to take a little time off from each other, hmm? Being CC is tough sometimes, especially if you have to play peace maker between a bunch of different factions and you aren't really that interested in doing the job and you aren't sure you have the temperment for it anyway. From your description it sounds like a no-win situation. How about if you do this: before the next committee meeting (hopefully soon?) ask the current CC to put the topic of new leadership on the agenda. Ask CC to publicly invite any parents with an interest in the topic to attend and to put their names forward if they wish to (again, if need be). Having these kinds of discussions via email, telephone, in dark hallways, etc., almost inevitably leads to problems and feeds the gossip mill, esp., when you get to the "someone told someone that someone else is upset with so-and-so but so-and-so doesn't know it so don't tell them" kind of stage where it sounds like you've just about arrived. Have a calm, polite, adult conversation out in the open with all concerned and that'll probably go a long way toward reducing these problems. Good luck to you! (Checking to see if it will be a full moon this week or something...) Lisa'bob

My sister has a couple of kids and last summer I spent some time visiting and helping out while she had some medical problems. They live in a rural area where 4-H is a big deal and here it was, almost fair season. My little niece had raised chickens to take to the fair. You should know: I can't stand chicken. I spent a good amount of time learning how to bathe a chicken! My niece was a thorough instructor. You can't show a dirty bird, especially if you want anybody to buy it at the 4-H auction. From this I learned that: Chickens are indeed dumb. They smell. They have terrible personal hygiene and that goes double for the ones with poofy tails and long leg feathers. Being bathed isn't something to which they take kindly. They have claws. And did I mention that I really can't stand chicken? And then! Auction day came and guess what, that's right, I ended up BUYING these chickens from my niece! I got scratched and pecked. I learned first-hand that stress (such as being freshly bathed and wrapped in towels to dry) can cause chickens to experience explosive bouts of...the runs. I got bit up by bugs while chasing the darn things around to catch them for their dates in the tub, and then I paid too much money for some rather scrawny birds. Of course, my niece's eyes were glowing with pride that her (now my) chickens sold for a decent price even though all the other people who had promised her they'd attend to bid on her birds never showed up, and we are both still laughing ourselves silly about all the chicken-bathing escapades. Talk about no return on my investment. Clearly I should've just bought some chicken in the grocery store. It would've been cheaper, not to mention quicker, cleaner, and more efficient. I won't even tell you about helping my nephew with his goats... Lisa'bob

Well, It's Me, I'm sorry you feel that way about the whole matter. No, we can't nurture every single interest or potential skill that our children might have - certainly not all at once! And I certainly don't question your dedication to your family's welfare and happiness. I don't think others are either, for the most part. But you asked a question and various people answered. Several tried to correct what appear to be misperceptions on your part about the program and how it changes as the boys grow older. Given that you went out of your way to ask in the first place, you can hardly blame us for sharing our views with you. (Feedback is a Gift!) In the end, I'm sure you'll make a decision (together with your son maybe?) that is in the best interests of your family, whatever it may be. best, Lisa'bob

Nope, we don't have anything like that around here. Funny thing: a nearby trop (where I have some friends) recently tried to get their boys to wear their uniforms to school. Participation was underwhelming and some of the adults were feeling disappointed about it. The title of this thread makes me wonder, how many of them would be willing to wear their uniforms to work? Lisa'bob

Brian, Here are a couple of things I did as ticket items when I took WB (the summer after my son finished his Bear year of Cubs). 1) Helped jump-start our pack's conservation program by setting up a bird house building workshop for a new local conservation area. We secured the supplies and the boys built something along the lines of 50 bird houses (I had a family friend with a lot of extra wood to donate). They had a blast building them, then went out to the nature center to help install them. The pack has since done several other conservation projects for this group. 2) Helped recruit a group of new leaders, then prepared and delivered several supplemental training modules to our pack leadership and managed, with their help, to get everybody to finally get to basic leader training. Your goals would depend on your pack (strengths, weaknesses, level of support for your participation in WB) and your own vision for yourself. I was on the committee and was unofficially the CC when I went through WB together with our then-CM. We both tried to pick projects that would focus on weaknesses in the pack program, and where we were personally well-equipped to help out. It was a dynamic process, both for me personally, and for the pack as a whole. Lisa'bob

Hoo Boy! Cajuncody, that's just rotten. Sorry you had to deal with such ridiculous parents. I don't blame you for quitting. Derbies CAN be run well and when they are, they're a great experience for the boys no matter how they place. But, too often, that doesn't happen because of parents like the ones you describe. Sad. If it makes you feel any better, you aren't alone in suffering from "derby blowback." One thing our pack did in the aftermath of a similar instance (in which, leaders actually came to blows - in front of the boys - about a scoring dispute) was to institute a new trophy - the SPORTSMANSHIP trophy. Not coincidentally, it is bigger than the PWD derby champion's trophy. We had outsiders with no ties to the pack act as judges (UC, local troop members who weren't from our pack or had been gone several years, etc.), so as to avoid claims of favoritism. Boy, we saw a change in behavior (at least, outward behavior) among THE ADULTS after doing this. The more competitive ones were actually encouraging their children to cheer for other boys, and the parents were on best behavior to avoid possibly costing their own boy this trophy. (We also went over the rules with a fine tooth comb and made extra-sure to give the "it's about the boys" speech to all parents relentlessly, after that. In other words, we aggressively sought to change the pack culture surrounding this event.) Anyway - I hope for your son's sake that you will locate a new pack nearby and allow him to continue enjoying and benefitting from cub scouts. And may those same, complaining parents, find themselves trying to run the race next year! Lisa'bob

Here's another thought. If your SON (not YOU) isn't so sure he wants to go through another 6-8-12 months as a webelos II before joining a troop, and if HE (not YOU) is chomping at the bit to take his scouting experience to a new level, then maybe the two of you should consider having him cross over to the troop a little early. If he is 10 and has his arrow of light, OR If he is 10 and has completed 5th grade, OR If he is 11 years old then he can join a troop. But please, don't make this decision for him - if YOU are burned out on cubbing but HE is not, then it wouldn't be right. The drawbacks to doing the above are: 1) he might not want to move on to boy scouts ahead of his buddies from his den 2) He'd almost certainly be the youngest boy in the troop and the only, or one of very few, brand new scouts. 3) A lot of troops run a solid New Scout program for cross-overs, which usually is organized to kick in whenever cross-over happens in your area, so your boy might be in the troop for a while before that happens. 4) Boy Scouting is much more demanding of the boy than Cub Scouting and not all boys are ready for that (mentally and emotionally as well as physically) at the beginning of 5th grade. Some mature a great deal between August and March/April/May, or whenever cross over is in your area. 5) They'll miss out on some fun activities with their former pack since they won't be cub scouts any more. I think those are pretty significant caution points to consider. But, for some boys, they're ready at the beginning of 5th grade and have met the AoL requirements, and can't wait to move on. If that's your son (not YOU), then it might be worth talking over the summer with the Scoutmaster about this option. When my husband and I were Webelos DLs, we had a couple of boys who were on the edge like this. Ultimately they and their families decided not to leave early and we had a GREAT W II year - much better, actually, than W I . Like your son, most of our boys were close to done w/ the AoL requirements by the end of 4th/early 5th grade. That gave us all kinds of room to really ramp up the program and do things "just for fun" instead of worrying about rank advancement. And I am really glad, looking back, because right now my son is in that obnoxious "don't walk too close to me in public" stage and I'm so happy that we both have those shared experiences from when he was in cubs and still thought I was "cool." (Here's hoping I become "cool" again not-too-far down the road.) Lisa'bob

It's Me, I had that same feeling sometimes as a Webelos DL. I had a couple of campouts that went almost exactly as you described. It irritated me no end and contributed to my own desire to step back, waaayyyy back, when my son finally crossed over. I really needed a break! (Actually I stayed on an extra few months to help out w/ the W I den but that was it.) Have you done any joint activities with the troop(s) in your area? How about doing some webelos/troop camp outs? You might be surprised. Camping w/ a troop is a very different dynamic than camping with cubs. Please don't base your decision about boy scouts on your camping experience with the pack. Also I am not sure where the idea came from that the first couple of years of boy scouts do not include leadership? Or that these first couple of years are basically glorified webelos scouting, which I (perhaps mistakenly?) picked up from your last post. They are not. At least, they should not be if the troop you join is running a good program. In my son's troop, first and second year scouts have served as patrol leaders and asst. patrol leaders, scribe, troop historian and librarian, and color guard, among other leadership positions, in the last 18 months. They have also begun teaching the new first year boys basic camping and woods skills, first aid, and other scouting lore, among other things. This is also leadership development. Yes, you can make good friends in lots of places. I don't want to knock the other activities your son is involved in. My son did chess club and soccer for a while too and enjoyed each, met new friends, and even learned new things. On the other hand, there's a different kind of friendship that develops from spending weekends together, cooking, eating, and sleeping together, trying new challenges and (eventually) succeeding together, with a bunch of other boys of varying ages, backgrounds, and abilities. But you know it sounds to me like the main problem is that you are burned out on being a den leader. The other comments you make, while I'm sure they're true, are nearly always true for most of us. We're all too busy. We all want to spend more time doing something or other. That's true whether or not it is scouts, or soccer, or chess club, or some other activity that we're spending time attending, driving to and from, etc.. But in my experience, these issues tend only to come to the forefront when people are looking for a reason to get out that they feel others will accept. If you really are too pressed for time then a) pull back on being a den leader and b) start looking for people you can share responsibilities, car pool duties, and other tasks with. If your son is enjoying scouts, then I would hope you'd try these kinds of "fixes" before simply telling him he can't be a scout anymore because it doesn't work for you. I hope that doesn't come across as harsh; that's not how I mean it, anyway. As our friend John-in-KC mentions, "feedback is a gift" and I hope you'll take all of our feedback here in that spirit. Lisa'bob

Its Me, I am wondering whether you might be suffering from cub scout burn out? I find that boy scouts is really different from cubs. Yes, there's the outdoor aspect which, as you point out, you can duplicate on your own. But there are also 120+ merit badges to explore; close friendships to develop; leadership opportunities that don't start at age 14; concepts like service to one's community; the idea that one is truly a part of a community (which, in this bedroom community of condos and apartment complexes and freeways with hardly any sidewalks, is a very special thing). In the last 18 months since my son joined his troop, I've been surprised at how he and his former den-mates have matured and grown more confident. I've loved that he got to explore his pet interests in science with professionals who took the time to counsel him through the MB program (where else could he really get that?). It has been wonderful to see him watch and learn from older boys whom he now respects and counts as friends. And since March when we had a new group of boys cross over, it has been most interesting to see him begin to act as teacher, mentor, and role model to those boys as well, even though he is only a year older. You'll have to make your own decisions about whether or not to stay involved but I'll tell you, it always makes me a little sad to see a boy who is excited about something be told he can't do it anymore because his parents are tired, even though there have been times where I too have felt that way. If it is transportation that's an issue, team with other parents in the group. If you don't have the time to devote to lots of leadership activities, then step back a bit if you need to. But please do give it some more thought before pulling him out if he is really enjoying it. Lisa'bob

Oops, looking again I see that the 4 boys are between 15-17, not 14. Don't know where I got that idea from! Anyway, same basic thing applies, except possibly for the 17 year old (will he age out soon?). Lisa'bob

oldsm, Have you approached your council about this? Have you asked at roundtable? Both very good suggestions. I know that our council recently did a hike like this and formed a council provo troop to do it. They do something like that about once a year for boys who have been working on this MB. Also there are a couple of venture crews around here that do a lot of backpacking - is that an option in your area for these boys to team up with? 14 year olds may not be particularly adept at planning ahead and you're right that a handful of boys working on a MB is different than summer camp in terms of planning needs and time tables. But, this is an arduous requirement simply from the logistics point of view and if your council can or will be doing something along the lines of the above, I don't see a lot of reason why these boys couldn't decide to join up with the council next time the opportunity arises. Yeah, I know, they want to finish the MB soon. I'm glad they're this excited about backpacking, too. Just seems to me that this is a perfect example of how scouting teaches leadership and development, using the outdoors as a laboratory. They'll probably learn as much about planning as about backpacking from this. Lisa'bob

Yikes Kittle! Maybe this is one of those things that is better not to think too much about. It is cool though, that your son WANTS you to be SM. Lisa'bob

We did a young eagles field trip with our webelos den a couple of years ago - it was fabulous and the boys still talk about it. Ours was combined with a fall camporee sponsored by a district so I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but we were not given any kind of hassle about filling out a flying permit? In fact I never heard of one and (grinning sheepishly here) I am rather concrete-sequential about making sure all the paperwork is taken care of. We did have to fill out a local tour permit and yes, every time you have a field trip, you should be doing this. It does NOT have to be a big deal. Two things that make the driver/insurance stuff easier: 1) At the beginning of your scout year, collect info from all drivers to keep on file (if you use various commercial advancement tracking software like Cubmaster, there's a place to enter this info right into your program). Then whenever you go anywhere and have people driving other people's kids, you will already have all the info you need. At least in our state as well, drivers are required by law to have insurance and the mandatory minimum amounts of coverage exceed BSA standards for ordinary cars so there's really not much of a problem here. I don't know if that's true where you are but your council staff should know - they handle these forms all the time. 2) In our council at least, proof of insurance, etc., is only required when you are driving someone else's child - NOT if each parent is driving their own child. In that case, we have always been allowed to indicate that all parents are driving their own children, end of story. I don't know if that is just a local interpretation or not but you might ask your DE or other council office staff about it. Also, although it does say to turn in the form at least 2 weeks ahead of time and we've always tried to be timely, we've never really had a problem with this. The woman who approves tour permits can usually do it on the spot as long as you've included the relevant information. But again, I suppose that might not be the case everywhere so you should probably inquire about this. I really hope you won't let the paperwork get to you! It is an issue in terms of insurance and liability and it can be a pain in the, er, neck. But while it is too important to skip, it shouldn't keep you from attending fun events! Don't let it all get you down - and maybe for the future, enlist another parent in the den/pack to help you with all this stuff so you don't end up doing it all yourself. Lisa'bob

(shuddering at the use of wikipedia as a legitimate source...) The question of whether or not we're fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq is complicated even further by two or three other matters. 1. Did we go to Iraq in order to fight Al Qaeda in the first place, or did Al Qaeda members migrate to Iraq in the ensuing chaos, with the result that NOW we're fighting them there even though that's not how things started out? (there is a fair amount of evidence to suggest this, including bin Laden's own writings in the late 1990s, in which he excoriates Saddam Hussein as being just as bad as the Saudi government. People who automatically equate Al Qaeda with Hussein's Iraq just because both were anti-US, Middle Eastern, and "bad guys" fail to understand Al Qaeda's ideology. Don't believe me? Read bin Laden's own statements and interviews on the matter - transcripts are available in English on the web and elsewhere) 2. Al Qaeda never was, a truly coherent organization. It was/is a loose affiliation . So if SOME people with Al Qaeda ties are in Iraq, which may well be the case now, that does not necessarily mean that Al Qaeda, Inc. has decided to take on the US in Iraq. 3. There is a group known as "Al Qaeda in Iraq" these days. Their exact connection and ties to the "original" Al Qaeda are not distinct. Some experts believe that this is actually a whole separate group with its own motives that has conveniently glommed onto the Al Qaeda "brand" because it gets attention. Others believe it is a loosely affiliated group that has reached some kind of "policy" coordination agreement with the rest of Al Qaeda. Still others believe it has always been part and parcel of the main branch of Al Qaeda, and just wasn't visible as such before because there was no room to manuever in the open. Even if we suppose that we are now fighting Al Qaeda on the streets of Baghdad, the situation is such that there are plenty of other groups - some with views inimical to Al Qaeda's - that are reaping the "benefits" from this chaotic and unstable situation. We're fighting against them too. Who is right here? Does it really matter? We can fight against Al Qaeda, Al Qaeda in Iraq, a wide variety of other terrorist groups of various skill and technical savvy, groups of angry Iraqi nationalists, Ba'athists, ex-communists or ex-Communists, or what have you. The question still comes back to whether or not we're better off for doing so and the answer, in some respects, is almost independent of exactly who these groups are. If we are unsuccessful at "winning the peace" as we certainly seem to have been so far, we'll leave Iraq and the wider Middle East less stable, more violent, more unpredictable, and more dangerous for the entire world. I don't see how that makes us more secure, NO MATTER what name we give to those we are now fighting against. (shuddering some more at the thought of using wikipedia as a legitimate source...) Lisa'bob

SSScout writes: "In conversations with folks, it was apparent that many parents wanted the "Scout Experience" for their son, but ultimately were not willing to support it." So true. I'd go a little further. It isn't even just that they won't support it. I've met lots of parents who will whip out the checkbook and write the pack/troop a check for whatever might really be needed, give generously to FOS every year, and make sure their boys and others who need it have the proper uniform and gear. In an important sense, they are willing to support the unit. But then they can't be bothered to take their kid to meetings on a regular basis or they use the "drive by" method whereby we become babysitters of America, and when you ask them to be on the committee even in some minor capacity they look at you like you're offering them something especially nasty to eat. They don't realize that if they want their son to HAVE a scouting experience then THEY have to help GIVE HIM that scouting experience. Anyway. On a brighter note, today I set up an Eagle BOR on rather short notice for a scout in our troop and EVERY person I called to ask to sit on the BOR was more than happy to do so, even if it required them to re-arrange their own schedule. Thank goodness for dedicated volunteers. Lisa'bob

John, I know that you are a COR of the best sort - active, knowledgeable, and fully supportive of your troop having the best possible program, within BSA guidelines. I agree that CORs like yourself are invaluable assets. But I don't think most of us have CORs like you. Most of us are operating with "ghosts" at best. I've never met our current COR; he (she? I don't know) does not attend our events, doesn't answer letters and emails and phone calls very often, and certainly wouldn't be in a position to offer training advice to the unit leaders. Just getting signatures when necessary is about all we can hope for. Sad to say, at least anecdotally, I've drawn the conclusion that there are more people and more units with experiences like mine out there, than with experiences like yours when it comes to the COR-unit relationship. Not that this excuses a unit making up its own rules or "bending" existing BSA rules for advancement. Lisa'bob

GS-CS, I don't think I can be any more emphatic than all the previous posters about the fact that your council can't stop you from transferring, and the pack B whom you are considering joining would be idiotic to do so. What I can tell you is that I also live on the edge of a council (actually three councils) and I have helped people do exactly what you are contemplating. In our pack we had a couple of boys from another council and in our troop there are at least 3 boys from other councils. We even have one family with one boy in our pack, a second boy in a pack in the second council, and a third boy in a troop in the third council! (well ok I think they're a little over the top but that's their preference.) Some of them joined us because they used to live in our town and then moved but wanted to stick with us; some were escaping from a lousy situation with their previous unit and liked ours better; some, it has to do with parental custody issues. It just is not that big a deal. It happens more often than you think. We also switched packs (though not councils, but I understand the adult politics because I dealt with it then too) when my son was finishing up 2nd grade - our whole den moved in fact and it caused some temporary hard feelings among certain adults but you know what? THat's it. Didn't last, wasn't a big deal, my son LOVED the new pack (and so did I) and he got a better scouting experience in the long term. And that's what it is supposed to be about. Just have fun and let your son have fun with cubs. Don't let it become a big adult production! Plenty of that in the "real" world. Lisa'bob

Oh, and about adult attendance - double check this (it has been a couple of years for me) but I believe the requirement for adult attendance is somewhat more relaxed for webelos than for other cubs. I seem to recall that we REQUIRED an adult to attend with younger cubs but that for webelos we allowed, say, one parent to take 2 or 3 boys even if they were not their own children (with permission slips signed by the children's custodial parents/guardians). Regardless, don't forget 2 deep leadership, YPT (BALOO rules say at least one YPT person should be there), and you probably ought to have Class One health forms as well. Lisa'bob

When I was a cub leader we did a fair number of these types of indoor overnighters. Our council interpretation was that a BALOO-trained leader should be present at each of these even though they're not technically camp-outs. As for being on the approved camping facility list - this is something our council has wrangled over (for a long time there WAS no list - which of course did not mean that there was no camping going on!). However, at least here, now, it is easy to get a venue approved. All it now requires around here is that you complete a tour permit and get it approved by the appropriate council folks. To be on the safe side, yes I'd want a BALOO person present and I'd file a tour permit, and I'd check in advance with council to make sure that this squares with their interpretation of "the rules." Have fun - sounds like a good trip! Lisa'bob

Welcome, Douglass. If the requirement has been signed and the rank awarded I don't think there is much you can do in an official sense about that particular scout. There was a discussion about similar kinds of issues recently on another thread here (about Boards of Review) and the consenus seemed to be that once signed off and awarded, there's no going back. But that doesn't mean there are no ways to address the wider issue. First off, the person (or people) who signed off on this or allowed it to happen without question, need to be trained or refresh their training. That could be a refresher "in house" if you have a SM or Committee Chair or Advancement Chair or some other registered leader who can do this gently but firmly and correctly. (though, the SM had to sign off on the SM Conference and should've caught this at that time; the Advancement Chair could have questioned this too; and if the CC was on the Board of Review, well it should at least have caused him or her to raise an eyebrow and inquire later of the SM and Adv. Chair) Or you could bring in someone from district/council. One way to do this might be to have a Safe Swim Defense training night and in the process of that, make sure whoever is conducting the training emphasizes the need to be scrupulous about sign-offs, esp. for swimming where a major safety issue could develop otherwise. So while you can't do a lot about this specific scout's advancement issue, hopefully you can prevent repeats of this problem with future scouts. Second, one can still try to work with this specific scout. Particularly if he shows any sign of being willing to try to learn, this might work ok with a trusted leader. But you'll need to avoid phrasing it in the "you really didn't earn this the first time" mode and focus more on positives (leadership of younger boys, benefits like being able to go canoeing, etc. at camp, etc.) and do this in a way that won't embarrass him further. Lisa'bob

Geez guys, I'm inclined to agree with Kahuna here. And my recollection is that McCarthy-ite style "patriotism" is not something to be embraced, assuming of course that we actually value things like free speech, freedom of assembly, right to petition government for redress of grievances, right to privacy, and all those other goodies in the Bill of Rights. But anyway... Brent, there are a lot of differences between Iraq and Japan/Germany, and some of this probably does have to do with the popular opinion on "the street" about the nature of the US occupation. At least at the end of WWII there was no question that it was a military victory and a military occupation, whereas at times we seem to have tried to disguise the current US intervention in Iraq as something entirely different. There's a new report put out today by the Rand Corporation - a well respected group of scholars and experts - regarding how and why things have not seemed to work out particularly well for us in Iraq and Afghanistan, post-conflict. In this report they make some comparisons to Japan and Germany. Among other things they conclude that: there was resentment in both J. and G. as well but that the US (and allies) were in both of those countries for decades and over time, that resentment diminished. We tend to forget that and focus on the strong relationships we've developed with those countries down the road instead. Also, they find that the US did a very good job of providing immediate and tangible benefits to ordinary people in J. and G. early in the occupation and thus capitalized on efforts to "win hearts and minds." One example they give is that the US military introduced powdered milk into the diets of Japanese children through the schools, thus quickly and visibly improving the health of many kids - something their parents understood. The authors of this report find that the US (and allies) have undertaken some very worthy development projects in Iraq (like re-building sewer systems and upgrading communications technology), but that these tended not to have similar immediate, tangible benefits to ordinary people early on, and so attempts to win those "hearts and minds" were not as successful as they could've been. Additionally they point out that as recently as the 1980s the Iraqi medical system was among the best in the Middle East, though it took serious blows in the 1990s. But Iraqis know, by and large, exactly what they used to have and no longer do, and all the rhetoric about how the US invaded in order to free them from Hussein (who, I think we all agree, committed countless atrocities) and improve their lives has raised expectations which we have not met. In fact medical conditions have deteriorated in many respects since the US invasion. That might not be our fault but one can see why and how the ordinary Iraqi might be a bit angry about this. Now...I'm sure some folks will say..."oh Rand is a bunch of [insert opposing ideology here] goofballs", or worse - though they're widely respected in both the scholarly and policy making communities. Of course it is easy to dismiss those who have an unpleasant message, particularly if it challenges one's preferred world view. But I think it is really important to understand what has worked, what hasn't worked, and why, if we expect to "get it right" in the future. I don't think that qualifies as unpatriotic, either - just rational. Or - go back to mud flinging and I'll just go read some other parts of the forum too along with Kahuna. Lisa'bob

Is this for cub leaders or troop leaders or crew leaders? (or all?) One thing I've seen that's kind of different/fun is to hand each group a bunch of patches and a felt board or uniform w/ lots of velcro on it and ask them to "place the patches" in a short amount of time. Of course include the major items but you might want to throw in something "different" too, that might reasonably end up on the uniforms of the kids in their unit (pack/troop/crew-dependent). Of course the easy way to do it is to bring in a model uniform and display it and refer to it while you talk about uniforming. Let us know what you end up with. Lisa'bob

OGE, you clearly need to watch the 10 Commandments to get a refresher course on proper treatment of royalty, including SMs(the old one with Charlton Heston). It is not white doves, but rose petals, and these should be strewn about in a graceful manner. Since most 11 yr. old boys I know are somewhat lacking in natural grace, I recommend we spend the "skill" segments at troop meetings teaching them to do this in a tolerable fashion. Lisa'bob (just call me "Pharoe." So let it be written. So let it be done.)

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on this but isn't the Institutional Head's name on the charter agreement? If you need to know who the church president is and the church folks simply won't tell you (which does raise red flags, I agree) then couldn't you inquire of your DE? Wouldn't s/he be able to tell you exactly whom to contact and also probably provide a phone # to go along with the name? Lisa'bob

See now, your last interpretation makes perfect sense to me (and that's where I'd come down, if I had the authority to make these decisions). But what I got was one answer from one professional (both are unacceptable) and a complete different answer from a different professional (both are fine) and now I don't know what the rule is (I thought I did, until the second district professional gave me exactly the opposite answer), but it is apparently NOT common sense! So next time the CO comes to us asking us to fund raise directly for them, I don't know what I'm supposed to say. Lisa'bob