Lisabob

A couple of years ago our pack had a boy who had started K early and skipped a grade as well. He was a WII and earned his AoL in Feb of 5th grade at the age of 9. Rules for joining a troop are that a boy MUST be at least 10, even if he finishes 5th gr. and already has his AoL. So this was a bit of a concern when all his den buddies were able to cross over and he had to wait. We have generally left this choice up to the parents (same with those who are held back a grade), but we try very hard to provide them with full information about future implications of whatever choice they make. Lisa'bob

Agreeing with Ma but also... I've known more than a few cub leaders who have "cleverly" circumvented the G2SS rules by holding events that are "family" events rather than "cub" events, including winter camping, rules for water activities, climbing/rapelling, extended camping, den camping with tigers, shooting sports rules, etc., etc., etc.. In nearly every case I've seen, these "leaders" say "oh, it isn't a den/pack thing, it is just a group of families where everybody *happens to be* from the same cub group." These folks should be embarrassed. Nobody actually believes this story and everybody knows what's going on here. But...it happens all the time anyway...and I suspect that's part of why Eamon and John responded in rather blunt manners. As for what NLD is actually saying, sure, you can do whatever you want with your family and friends. Please though, don't buy or sell the "cover" that this is really a "family" event when in fact you want to do something with your den or pack that you know BSA prohibits. Lisa'bob

I agree that mid-week visits can be a problem for some boys. However I would be wary of going the route of simply not telling parents that this is an option, or of intentionally trying to exclude "new" parents from the planning and logistical end of things. First, you can really only pull this off once. The boys will observe that parents from other troops are all at camp on Wednesday night and they may wonder why NONE of theirs are. They're sure to mention this to mom and dad when they get home. Second, you may unintentionally cause resentment, among both parents and boys (why did you feel you couldn't trust us enough to tell us...) Third, new parents who are intentionally excluded will discover this and may feel you are "clique-ish" in your behavior. Not to mention, they're the parents who most need to be kept IN the loop since they are often not well acquainted with the program and will have the most questions and misgivings about sending their boy to camp with you. In short, I don't think intentionally witholding information is the best strategy in terms of long term trust. I know I wouldn't appreciate it if I were the new parent. Lisa'bob

Funscout, My understanding is that no, webelos are not permitted to engage in winter camping where they'd be sleeping in tents (as opposed to heated cabins, which is another story). I know that in my area, council and district winter boy scouting events are sometimes open to webelos during the day, but webelos are never permitted to camp with troops at these events. (I believe this has been discussed elsewhere in threads on winter klondikes? But I haven't followed those discussions too closely) Your own council might have a different interpretation of the age-appropriate guidelines and their applicability, judging from the conversation going on in this thread. So I guess if it were me, I'd be contacting my council to ask what their position is. I know in my council the answer would be that webelos may not sleep overnight at winter events. Lisa'bob

Hopefully leaders would have enough common sense to avoid taking webelos camping (in tents) in really awful weather conditions for which these young kids are not ready. However I've met some leaders for whom common sense is apparently in short supply. Hence, the "guidelines" from the BSA. I surely do not want to suggest to these leaders - or any others for that matter - that the age appropriate GUIDELINES are suggestions only! What's next, the G2SS is only a guide??? Heck, that throws open the barn doors, doesn't it. I appreciate your view Beavah and I understand where you're coming from, I just don't agree on this matter. I see the "Guide" as a set of rules that BSA expects you to follow, even if you don't particularly like or agree with some parts of it. And at the end of the day if something does go wrong or someone does challenge a unit's practice, I'd rather be on my side of this particular fence than on yours. Others can make whatever decisions they feel comfortable with, I guess. But that's my interpretation. Lisa'bob

They changed them so the emblem on the scarf would match the newer tan oval-shaped webelos rank badge. Personally I'm really not convinced of the necessity but then again, I also don't see why they need a new neckerchief (at about $6 a pop) for each and every rank, either. Lisa'bob

Calico, While I personally do not agree with the BSA's position on this matter, I suppose that they might argue they are setting a "floor" or a "base" requirement regarding who may join, and that while additional restrictions may occur at the whim of the CO, those base restrictions cannot be removed. In that regard, if we put it in context of the right of association, the CO may choose to run any youth program it wants, inviting whomever they want to join (or prohibiting whomever they want as well) but if they choose to run the BSA program then they have to live with the BSA guidelines. This isn't a blow to one's right of association then. Again, not that I agree w/ BSA policy here (personally I think it is short sighted, strategically speaking, and misguided, ethically or morally speaking.), I just don't particularly think it works to put it in the context of the free association argument as you've suggested. Lisa'bob

Those darn neckerchiefs are expensive. Since you have enough of one style for all the boys to have "uniform" neckerchiefs, then unless someone in your group has really strong feelings to the contrary, I'd use the old ones up. The boys are probably not going to care which webelos emblem is on the scarf! And welcome to the job! I loved being adv. chair - it gave me a good excuse to get to know all the boys and find out what cool things each den was up to. Lisa

Sorry for getting off on a tangent but Kittle, what's a shakedown sheet? Our troop requires permission slips to be handed in about 2 weeks in advance but there are always a few who turn them in at the following week's meeting (so the week of the campout). They haven't been to strict about it but I also don't think they've had many problems, except maybe among brand new scout families who are still learning the "system" and there's some flexibility there. Lisa'bob

It has become a hot topic around here too. Problem is, the answer to your question appears to be "not much." I've seen a lot of hand wringing but not much in the way of a serious plan.

I'll agree with fgoodwin on the point about fast start. But to a certain extent I think you need to give people what they want when it comes to training volunteers. If they sit through an entire day or two of basic training (or common core or whatever the latest name change is) and at the end of the day, they leave feeling that they didn't get something of value, then: 1. they're probably going to continue to struggle to run good meetings within the guidelines of the program, and 2. they're not very likely to come back for the (potentially more rewarding) supplemental trainings. For most people you have to get them the first time they come in the door or, no matter how good the follow up material, you're not going to have a chance to deliver it to them because they just won't come. Lisa'bob

I wouldn't want anybody to see or to use the webelos program as ONLY prep. for boy scouts. They are not boy scouts and they shouldn't be given simply "boy scouts light" as a program either. Webelos is not merely a feeder program for troops. I do think there's a fine line to be walked between preparing and over-preparing. I think it depends a bit on the boys, a bit on the troop(s), and a bit on the leaders. In our case, what I've seen is that the troop we tend to cross into takes an extremely hands off approach to their first year boys. This may not be ideal but it is what it is and there's a lot of resistance to change at the moment. And that troop uses New Scout Patrols where sometimes, it is a little of the blind leading the blind. So boys who join that troop with at least SOME skill are likely to be ok, while those who join with very little skill are probably going to struggle. Also I don't know but I think our pack seemed to attract a disproportionate number of boys with developmental and behavioral issues. Those boys seem to struggle more during the transition phase and if having some basic skill helps them fit in and have fun right from the start, then I'm all for it. If it were a troop with a great first year program, I might be more willing to say hey, worry about basic skill instruction once you get there. From what some folks have posted about their troops, I think they're closer to that end of the spectrum in their own situations. Lisa'bob

Good question! I think you'll end up with more advice than you'll ever be able to follow...but here's mine, for what it's worth. 1. Specific skills: if you have not already done so, get a copy of the boy scout handbook and the field guide. Look at the requirements for Scout, Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, and 1st Class. These are the basic "skill" ranks. Many, though not all, of these requirements dovetail with various webelos requirements, particularly for the outdoorsman, readyman, and citizenship pins. (the boy scout requirements are more detailed of course but it is the same basic set of skills). The better you can prepare your boys on these skills, the easier time they'll have when they cross over. 2. Youth Leadership: DON'T feel like you need to teach them everything yourself. Invite older boys from local troops to come to your meetings to do presentations and teach skills. The scouts will be learning in large part from other boys when they cross over anyway so it not only ok to do this but also smart to get them used to listening to other youth as authority figures. 3. Scout independence: it is a big shock for a lot of boys to go from webelos, where adults (usually) run everything, to patrols, where they need to make decisions for themselves. We just had a boy tell us that he wants to go back to webelos because "you have to do everything yourself in boy scouts and it is too hard." (well and there were other issues too in this particular case, but I think that's a common enough sentiment among brand new scouts). So as they go through their webelos program, build in progressive steps where they have to make real decisions themselves. And if it falls through ocassionally because they made poor choices (short of safety concerns), let it fall through rather than "rescuing" the situation, and then talk about what happened with them later. 4. Get them outside as much as you can. 5. One thing to consider NOT doing: Don't get overly hung up in the webelos activity pins as the basis for your den meetings. This is something that, in hindsight, I wish I had approached differently with our guys. The activity pins are fun (mostly) and they are similar in some ways to the various bear/wolf achievement chapters so it is easy to fall into working on these as the core of the meeting. BUT...many of them do very little to prepare the boys for moving on to boy scouts and it is really easy to set up a situation where the adult leaders are making all the decisions (ok today we're working on pin X...). I think if I had it to do over again, I'd work with the boys to pick out a handful of pins to work on together at meetings but the rest of the time I'd spend on other activities and skills, and I'd encourage them to work on any additional pins that they want to earn at home. Lisa'bob

ScoutNut is correct here. Webelos may not winter camp. However, that doesn't mean you can't prepare them. Does your council run any daytime activities in the winter? Ours does a great winter event and it includes day activities for cubs (age-appropriate from Tigers through Webelos). Webelos are also welcome to participate with a troop in the daytime boy scout activities. If your council does anything like this, you may want to inquire into the status of webelos participants. You can also do a variety of den-level outdoor activities during the winter (hikes, winter cook-outs, etc.) where you might want to team up with a patrol from one of your nearby troops. As for staying warm at night in the winter, while you can't do campouts, you can still have a gear shake down. Invite a couple of older boys from the troop to visit a den meeting and talk about what and how to pack for winter camping. Then have your boys come to the next den meeting with the gear packed that they'd need and have those same boy scouts do a shakedown/inspection (I think this also helps fulfill at least one outdoorsman requirement). It's a good way to give your den's parents a heads up too, so that they can start to buy any needed items in advance and not suddenly have to drop a bunch of money right at cross over. Have fun! Lisa'bob

I sat through safe swim defense last year and I must say it was entirely useless. This may be a matter of a poor local training team but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that this is common. But I would hate for anyone to suppose that just because they sat through this training, that this was sufficient. Necessary yes, sufficient, no. At any rate, Seed, after having a look at the rules for swimming our pack made the decision to avoid doing water events at pack meetings, except in situations where we had rented a pool and a trained lifeguard staff was provided as part of the rental fee. (We held one pack meeting each year at a nearby pool.) We just didn't feel we could meet all the requirements for open water activity at any of the swimming areas in nearby state parks. And we asked, too, about the notion of having families take their own children swimming. Our DE told us that if it was taking place in the context of what was otherwise a scout event, that simply announcing that families had an opportunity to take their children swimming on their own would not be sufficient distance - in other words, if something were to happen, the pack could potentially still be responsible. Interpretations may vary and you might make a different decision - but that's where we ended up on the matter. Lisa'bob

Does anybody else do this? We have a couple of parents who want to attend summer camp for part of the week with the troop (some are active leaders, some not, though they will have to register to attend). In most cases, their work schedules prohibit them from being there the whole week. Camp is only a few hours from home so I can see this working out, logistically, I'm just wondering if it is typical. Also, what's your typical adult: boy ratio at summer camp? Lisa'bob

When he gets in front of the Eagle Board, extension or not, they are going to have a problem with this (that fallout is already in progress). He knows it is an uphill battle. I think an Eagle Board has a right to ask some tough questions here but I don't think the fact of the extension, however questionable it might have been, should be enough to deny this young man the Eagle rank. The extension was clearly out of your hands and approved both by the council and national. If you deny rank advancement on that basis, I would imagine that the candidate would have a pretty good shot at an appeal. Beyond that, at least he did a good job on his project and seems to have grown beyond his behavioral issues. Sounds like someone who, down the road, you may be able to look back on and be proud to call an Eagle from your troop. Lisa'bob

Seed, There are a variety of rules for swimming that you need to follow, including marking off areas of various depths and having qualified supervision (no, having parents present won't necessarily cover you, even though common sense might suggest that it should be enough). These rules are covered in BALOO training and the Guide to Safe Scouting and as I recall they are rather stringent. Here's a link to the G2SS policies on water safety. http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss02.html Lisa'bob

I think the concern that the den leader, the mom, and to some extent, I feel with a situation like this is as follows: 1. Boy with various difficulties joins cubs. He enjoys the program and clearly benefits from it. He wants to continue. 2. Same boy crosses over to boy scouts and gets lost. He may or may not be benefiting but he wants to quit because he isn't fitting in. 3. General answer from some adults is frequently "boy scouts is not for everyone." (not knocking anyone here who may have responded this way - I agree, it isn't and in some cases, that needs to be the answer. But sometimes this seems to get used as a convenient response rather than working hard to adapt to the needs of the boy) Cubs is for everyone but boy scouts is not? Sigh. I don't want to be a social worker. But this makes me uneasy. If the boy scout program isn't flexible enough to meet the needs of boys who are off to one side or the other of "normal" then we're not doing a good job of meeting the needs of a very high percentage of boys out there. We'll end up preaching to the choir, so to speak. Thanks, everyone, for your input into the situation. This is a tough one and I don't really think there's an easy answer here, but I appreciate your willingness to act as a sounding board for various ideas and approaches. Lisa'bob

EagleinKY, I think the mom is aware of her son's difficulty and I think she's in a tough spot. On one hand, she wants him to separate from her and appears to take steps in that direction. On the other hand, it has to be done by degree or he has anxiety attacks. This is a medically diagnosed problem. What parent wants to cause their child serious suffering?? So at weekly troop meetings, for example, "mom" attends but takes frequent and lengthy walks in the hallway, seeks out other adults for conversation, and generally tries to stay out of the way an as unavailable to her son as possible. But there's a limit to how far this goes. My impression is that she is not a "hover mom" although yeah, at some point in the boy's life, he's going to need to cope without her there much more than he currently seems capable of handling. Lisa'bob

Thanks for some very interesting feedback so far and please keep it coming! I brought up the situation with our ASM for new scouts - who I also asked the webelos den leader to contact. His take is that the SM would not likely support this boy serving as a den chief. So I don't think that option is going to fly. Also, the boy is 11 now and 5th grade ends in 3 weeks here so I don't think he meets the cub requirements. (As an aside, the SM apparently talked with this boy's mom and basically told her to quit babying him. This didn't do wonders for the mom's impressions of the SM...actually she does try to make herself unavailable but from what she said, the boy won't even go to troop meetings unless she promises to be nearby. She did not go on the one campout he attended and apparently that was part of the reason he was miserable - though also it was cold, he was poorly prepared, and the patrol he's in is a little on the wild side) Both LongHaul and Beavah mention the insurance issue and that is a concern for the den leader. If she lets him tag along unofficially, that may become a problem. LongHaul, I'm not sure I understood correctly, but were you suggesting that if the boy did remain registered as a boy scout, that his participation in any pack or den activities would be covered by the troop's unit insurance? I wouldn't think it would work that way? But let me know if you believe that to be the case and I'll look into it further. Beavah - the CO in this case is a PTO and they don't have insurance for the pack to piggy back on, at least, not that I'm aware of. The pack does have its own insurance but I wouldn't think that would cover non-members. As for a waiver of cub joining requirements from the SE, what kinds of conditions might this cover? How about disorders like anxiety attacks? Is this a realistic possibility for a situation like the one here? I am pretty sure that this is one of those cases where if the boy quits, he is unlikely to ever come back. He only joined cubs over the summer between 4th/5th grade and then crossed into the troop less than a year later so he didn't have much time to get into the cubbing scene before he moved on. And so far I don't think he has seen the troop as being a whole lot of "fun." So I don't think he'd come back, if we simply told him to take some time off. That might be unavoidable but I hope not. Brainstorming here...how about assigning him an older "buddy" scout? Sort of a one-on-one troop guide? Lisa'bob

Ang, The decision to charge or not charge for courses is primarily in the hands of council or district leaders. In our council, BALOO costs either $25 or $35 (can't remember which off hand) and participants do get a BALOO manual at the end of the course. In adjacent councils, BALOO costs anywhere from $10 to $45. Lisa'bob

Got a call from a friend of mine who is the current webelos den leader from the pack my son was in. She is a fantastic den leader - very outdoor oriented and very good with kids who don't quite fit in for one reason or another. As a result she had a combined WI and WII den this year that attracted a bunch of brand new scouts, 4 of whom crossed into our troop in February. One of those boys clearly isn't meshing with the troop. He spends a lot of his time at meetings going over to his mom and whining about things (I know, that sounds awful, but he really does whine, high pitched voice and all). Mom is good - she tries to get him right back over to the patrol and the patrol leader tries to connect with him too - but this is a persistent issue. Also he went on the first campout in March (pioneering), was really cold and apparently miserable, and he elected not to go on the next (much warmer) campout. All warning signs in my eyes that this is a boy who may quit. He just doesn't seem to be on the same page as the rest of the boys, in terms of maturity. It doesn't help that the group of new boys that crossed over this year includes a high percentage of boys who are difficult to handle (severe ADD and other various conditions) and I think this particular boy is a bit lost in the fray It is a loud, boisterous, rambunctious group and he's quiet and sensitive. So the WDL called me yesterday night and said this boy contacted her and asked to rejoin her den with the idea that he would cross over to the troop again next year. The WDL tells me it took him several months before he opened up to the other boys in his den ("emotionally fragile" was how she described this boy) but that once he did, he really bonded with the 4th grade boys in particular. That's the group he wants to rejoin. Technically speaking, can he even do this? He is in 5th grade now and did earn his arrow of light prior to crossing over in Feb. However, he was only in cubs for a bit less than a year. If, as I suspect, he can't do this, could he serve as a den chief? Normally I wouldn't think a boy who is only at the scout rank would be considered for den chief positions but maybe that would give this young man a bridge? And then, pragmatically, how to broach this whole topic with the SM? The SM is a decent guy but he is not known for either his tact or his insight, particularly when it comes to younger boys who are "quirky" and their moms. (or for that matter, women in general - though I'm certain that this is not intentional.) I'm pretty sure that his response would boil down to "tough it out". That kind of response will probably result in this boy quitting scouts, and possibly in this WDL looking for a different troop for next year. And that would be a real shame (for us) because she has a phenomenal group of boys and parents in her webelos den. So I need some advice. The WDL wants to know what her options are in response to this boy's request and she wants to know how to approach the SM to discuss this situation in a constructive manner. As a secondary concern, this gets me thinking - again - about how to work on that difficult bridging process from webelos to boy scouts. We've made great improvements as a troop in this area over the last year but I still think more attention needs to be focused here. Any thoughts? Thanks. Lisa'bob

LongHaul, I agree completely that it can be a sobering proposition. Let me start out by saying I would never, ever suggest any kind of cooking that includes white gas for webelos (in fact I think this is prohibited? but that's a hazy memory from BALOO several years ago so don't quote me on that). The backpacking stoves we used were fueled by liquid propane. Still potentially dangerous but no where near as scary as the white gas ones. We did do some cooking over backpack stoves with webelos, with VERY CLOSE supervision. We did simple one-pot items like chicken and rice (where the chicken was pre-cooked and cubed) and soup. Lisa'bob

I had that same reaction as Ma Scout to the notion of taking 4th and 5th graders on a long hike. But, it does depend a great deal on the terrain and the boys (and the adults that'll be hiking with them - I know if I'd tried to do a 6 miler with our den, the boys would have been fine and the parents would've been screaming bloody murder). Keep in mind that if you are planning to cook on the trail, and if the boys are really to do the cooking themselves, that you should a) double the amount of time you think lunch will take because they won't be efficient cooks and b) make very sure that you and at least one other adult know exactly how to use the cooking gear. On the trail isn't a good time to discover you aren't sure how to use a backpacking stove. Again this would be a great place for a couple of older boys from the troop to lend a hand - and maybe the necessary equipment, too. Lisa'bob